Kakashi vs Hiruzen

[Totsuka gg Amaterasu gg]

Kakashi kept up with 4 v2 jins, he can easely handle the old man with the monkey

1 Gai also kept up even without suicidal gate so it's not a big deal
2 there's no proof being the jin of the 4 or the 5 will make you near as fast as any of the jins with good speed feats (Naruto/Bee) since bijuus aren't equal in power

 

[TheEvilOne]

I'm going with Hiruzen.

 

[MickNerks]

Hiruzen wins.


Kakashi and hiruzen MAY be evenly matched in terms of the arsenal of ninjutsu they possess, but in all other aspects Hiruzen is superior. And Hiruzen has an edge of mastering all 5 elements.

He has a superior summon
He is far smarter than kakashi
He is better at taijutsu (Master of Taijutsu, able to out class hashirama and tobirama in it)
He Mastered all other shinobi skills.

And he has far stronger chakra that kakashi which means his techninques pack more of a punch.

The only thing kakashi had over hiruzen is kumai, but without it hiruzen comfortably takes this with mid diff.

 

[Takos]

Hiruzen wins.


Kakashi and hiruzen MAY be evenly matched in terms of the arsenal of ninjutsu they possess, but in all other aspects Hiruzen is superior. And Hiruzen has an edge of mastering all 5 elements.

True, this is one advantage Hiruzen has.

He has a superior summon

Agree, but this summon's still got nothing on Kakashi.

He is far smarter than kakashi

What? No freaking way. Lol

He is better at taijutsu (Master of Taijutsu, able to out class hashirama and tobirama in it)

If you seriously think that Edo Hashi and Edo Tobirama summoned by Orochimaru in Part 1 were at their full power, then we shouldn't take it any further. I have no proof, but based on feats - Kakashi takes taijutsu part. Especially with a Sharingan.

He Mastered all other shinobi skills.

That's pretty general, isn't it? I can say a similar thing for Kakashi who was even shown to be capable of using medical ninjutsu, something Hiruzen doesn't have.
All these "other shinobi skills" are mostly useless when it comes to pitching characters against each other, though. What counts is ninjutsu, taijutsu, genjutsu, speed and intellect. That's mainly it.

And he has far stronger chakra that kakashi which means his techninques pack more of a punch.

Hiruzen pants after creating two clones. How does it compare to using 6 kamuis after creating a bunshin along multiple other techniques?

 

[EZQ]

Hiruzen wins.


Kakashi and hiruzen MAY be evenly matched in terms of the arsenal of ninjutsu they possess, but in all other aspects Hiruzen is superior. And Hiruzen has an edge of mastering all 5 elements.

He has a superior summon
He is far smarter than kakashi
He is better at taijutsu (Master of Taijutsu, able to out class hashirama and tobirama in it)
He Mastered all other shinobi skills.

And he has far stronger chakra that kakashi which means his techninques pack more of a punch.

The only thing kakashi had over hiruzen is kumai, but without it hiruzen comfortably takes this with mid diff.

Hiruzen smarter than kakashi? LOL, LOL, LOL, LOL

Call me when Hiruzen can figure out Obito's kamui mechanism, when he can outsmart Itachi and Pain, when he figures out Deva path abilities after 2 atacks.

Better taijutsu? Kakashi speedblitzed and kept up with 4 v2 jins.... another LOL for you sir.

Hiruzen more chakra than Kakashi? Okay the last LOL for you... LOL

 

[EZQ]

Funny how i always stomp threads. 8)

 

[EZQ]

Sorry It took me so long, was at work. Shall we go to war?

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3 tomoe cannot predict what isn't their yet. Enma

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anytime he pleases (kishi). And kakashi would never see it coming till its too late.



And just like an elite 3 tomoe sasuke faced

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, he cannot read unpredictable and unorthodox movements since a human can only do so much with 2 arms. Then on top of that What would kakashi Block Enma with? A small Kunai???...... Think about that for a second...

In terms of speed..

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.... Damn.... When kakashi can travel that immense distance in under what seemed a minute or so... Then talk to me.. It was from

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, Minato and kushina said a total of about 30 sentences about the situation before

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Sarutobi Showed up solo!!!!! Then he Blitz Oru right

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to

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almost instantly no difficulty in old age.... Damn son! Kakashi has not shown speed feats that blow Hiruzen away. SO they are equal at best.


Taijutsu is about a tie, but add the fact He has enma goes to Hiruzen easily! Enma alone could Battle Kakashi and give him problems. You add the fact He could trap kakashi anytime he pleases.. GG?

Clones? Matched by clones! Kakashi's stamina is shit when it comes to shadow clones for battling. Add the fact all his clones would have enma shows even more.

Ninjutsu? Hiruzen>>>>>

Hiding like a mole? Sniffed out like

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. Basically, if he tries to sneak attack He sniffs him right away since kakashi cannot hide his scent. And the fact that Enma can protect instantly makes that strategy null and void. When he tried it on Itachi, Itachi could sniff him out so don't bring Itachi up as if him and hiruzen have anything in common in terms of battling.

Basically all of kakashi best Feats are countered. But kakashi has no counter for Most of Hiruzen's arsenal.

Then you really think Fighting long range will be the best Idea? Let alone work? Really???....

Admit defeat??

 

[BenjerminGaye]

Kakashi has superior reserves, speed, and taijutsu.

All he has to do is get close and stay close. Raikiri ends it.

 

[MickNerks]

What? No freaking way. Lol

Hiruzen was hailed as a genius. Kakashi was not.

If you seriously think that Edo Hashi and Edo Tobirama summoned by Orochimaru in Part 1 were at their full power, then we shouldn't take it any further. I have no proof, but based on feats - Kakashi takes taijutsu part. Especially with a Sharingan.

Not being at full power had nothing to do with their taijutsu feats. It only affected the power of there ninjutsu. Taijutsu is the art of physical combat.

And even with a sharingan hiruzen could still outclass him. Hashirama was able to evenly clash with madara in taijutsu though madara had a sharingan.

Lee was able to clash with sasuke, yet sasuke had a sharingan..

Might Guy is able to fight both itachi and kakashi, yet they both have sharingans, so your statement is invalid.

That's pretty general, isn't it? I can say a similar thing for Kakashi who was even shown to be capable of using medical ninjutsu, something Hiruzen doesn't have.
All these "other shinobi skills" are mostly useless when it comes to pitching characters against each other, though. What counts is ninjutsu, taijutsu, genjutsu, speed and intellect. That's mainly it.

You clearly don't recall when it was stated that hiruzen had MASTERED ALL FORMS OF SHINOBI COMBAT. That means he is a master of:
Ninjutus
Taijutsu
Genjutus
Bukijutus
Fuinjutus
etc..

He has master far more things then kakashi.

Hiruzen pants after creating two clones. How does it compare to using 6 kamuis after creating a bunshin along multiple other techniques?

Are you referring to a hiruzen who was in the midst of battle against 3 other hokage level shinobi.. And he didn't make clones until the end of that 1 hour and a half long battle. He wasn't even exhausted after that, he still had enought stamina to activate reaper, seal hokages, struggle against orochimaru for a good hour after that (which is stated in manga), and rob oro of his arms.

 

[MickNerks]

Hiruzen smarter than kakashi? LOL, LOL, LOL, LOL

The funny thing is that you think your logic is greater than manga.

Manga clearly states hiruzen is a Genius, so much so that he stands out from all the others and is given to status/reputation/name as the professor.

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Kakashi has never received and recognition that high

Call me when Hiruzen can figure out Obito's kamui mechanism, when he can outsmart Itachi and Pain, when he figures out Deva path abilities after 2 atacks.

And you claim that kakashi is smarter because he was able to understand obito's kamui??? You mean the same kamui which kakashi has been using since the beginning of shippuden?? I would hope he would know the workings of it by now lmao

Yet hiruzen was able to analyze and deduce (figure out) a jutsu he had only seen once, and he did it in less the 5 mins.. kakashi would have never been able to figure that out.

Better taijutsu? Kakashi speedblitzed and kept up with 4 v2 jins.... another LOL for you sir.

What does a speedblitz have to do with taijustu??lol He clearly used ninjutus to confront to jinchuuriki's. When I refer to taijutus im talking about to ability to disarm or defeat your opponent with hand-to-hand combat. Much like might guy and rock lee. And in that area it is said that hiruzen has mastered it and he has demonstrated it when he went toe-to-toe with hashirama and tobirama and was able to not only hold his own, but also lace them with explosive tags without them noticing and also without orochimaru noticing.

Hiruzen more chakra than Kakashi? Okay the last LOL for you... LOL

I never said hiruzen had more chakra then kakashi, I stated that hiruzen's chakra is more powerful that kakashi's. Hiruzen's chakra strength >> kakashi's chakra strength... This was clearly shown when hiruzen first released his chakra and caused the building around him to crack and the atmosphere get heavy. much like when hashirama released his.

With a stronger chakra strength, hiruzen's ninjutsu would easily overpower anything kakashi has.

And you claim that kakashi is smarter because he was able to understand obito's kamui??? You mean the same kamui which kakashi has been using since the beginning of shippuden?? I would hope he would know the workings of it by now lmao

Yet hiruzen was able to analyze and deduce (figure out) a jutsu he had only seen once, and he did it in less the 5 mins.. kakashi would have never been able to figure that out.

 

[Draegod]

Okay, lets get this started! I'll use numbers on each of your paragraphs.

1- 3 Tomoe can't predict what isn't there yet, sure, but don't compare Part 1 Sasuke's reaction speed to Kakashi's, Kakashi can react to a susano arrow, if enma gets out of the stick he would be on time to react. Kakashi's reaction time is heavens above sasuke's.

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2- There's no need for kakashi to "block" enma, he can just dodge it, jump back or anything, Kakashi's speed is enough to keep up with v2 jins, if he reacts to enma he can dodge him. Also, Kakashi has feats of tanking a straight atack of v2 jins like here, if he can dodge the atack or just get far enough to not get a fully directed hit from enma, he would be fine.
So yeah, Kakashi can react to enma and then dodge it, and it doesn't matter if he doesn't fully dodge the atack, he just need to don't get a full punch.

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3- Okay, let's talk about the difference of battle speed and longe distance speed... Hiruzen can cover longe distance with sunshin pretty fast, but he has no feats of being fast on a battle. If Hiruzen and Kakashi were to make a race, Hiruzen would win, big deal, on a battle Kakashi moves faster. Look at this:

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Look at the second scan, it clearly shows that Gai is facing the 6 tails by himself (fully Bijuu mode) While Kakashi is facing 4 v2 jinjurickis... Keeping up and speedblitzing 4 v2 jinjurickis like that is a feat that Hiruzen can't get.
So Kakashi can perfectly keep up with Hiruzen with speed and i'd say outlast him, while Hiruzen has good long travelling speed feats, his speed feats on the battlefield are not that impressive like against Orochimaru.

4- I already gave scans with enough proof about Kakashi being able to react to enma, His reaction speed and foot speed are enough to react to him and dodge him. Also, kakashi can make clone feints to distract Hiruzen and enma and then atack on the back.
Kakashi is an expert on clone feints, he can definitely trick Hiruzen with one of them

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5- Lol if you think Hiruzen's clone faints feats are better than Kakashi's. Hiruzen stamina is the one that's shitty here, Kakashi on the war arc already showed his stamina is about average.

6- Kakashi has counters to all atacks, hiding like a mole is a deffence trick to avoid any elemental atack Hiruzen has, and then Kakashi can use long range and nno doubt it will work
This atack would numb enma is he tries to block it, lightining spreads trough the body, Hiruzen would also get the shock

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So:

Hiruzen is slower (battle speed) , Kakashi is definitely better with clones, has more stamina, can counter all Hiruzen elemental atacks by going underground, Can react to enma and dodge him and at the end he could finish Hiruzen when he is out of stamina.

didn't know you commented on my post. Ill make this quick!

1. Susanoo arrow was clearly there for kakashi to see and prepare for. Not impressive. Sasuke basically told him "im about to shoot you with this giant arrow!" it was simply to fast was the reason he had to warp it. BAsically that isn't a plus for his reactions. Danzou reacted as well and he is a old man. What is your point? Hiruzen at the last second not only reacted to 5 ninjutu's already being shot, but he matched its power and out speed it to stop it. That is speed and reaction at it's best! And just like you're saying kakashi is above part one sasuke, hiruzen is above part 1 naruto, we can do this all day. My point was to show the FACT that they cannot predict what isnt there! He isnt countering enma and hiruzen unless he has 4 arms and 4 legs (Saru hits with his 4 limbs and Enma with his 4 limbs from no where)

I'll break it down further since you have no idea what I'm talking about i see. If kakashi goes to block hiruzen's enma staff strike (which he cannot block period unless he is the raikage..) and Hiruzens kick or hit, he is now preocupied. he either
a. Switch to blocking enma (which he cannot), then get hits by hiruzen since he cannot make up for the extra hand saru added.
b. Continue blocking Saru but get hit by Enma.

Basically unless he has multiple hands he will get hit! Period!


2. V2 jins were not even fast nor was they in control! lmao Weak argument bro.. smh..
Fact 1: They were not fast nor blitz any one
Fact 2: They were mindless edo zombies
Fact 3: The were apart of the 6 paths tech, further stupid and mindless
Fact 4: fact 5 he only had to hit fight 1 since the other 2 went after Naruto:

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Fact 5: He was clearly hit and couldn't counter or stop them here:

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So based off these manga facts.. Please stop saying he reacted to 4 V2 jins. He got owed by 1 V2 JIN! They showed no speed feats and they are not real ninjas in control! He clearly did nothing but hit them, but couldn't avoid getting hit. Enma and Saru are faster and have allot more unpredictable tactics and speed to go with it! So please drop the "V2 jin" argument up!

3. Look to the past post. He blitz Oru with a heavy enma no diff form more then 5 meters away! kakashi hasn't shown any speed that has ever really overwhelmed anyone. And with enma diamond cage and extra limbs nothing in this world suggest Kakshi stands a chance in really overwhelming Saru! And if close, diamond cage ends him no diff!
And the fact that he traveled that far in under a minute shows he is tremendously fast! We just didn't get the luxury of following his movements. But i'll leave that alone since it is complicated.

4. Hiruzen can also use clone feints, what is your point? But the difference with teh 2 is Hiruzen clones will each have enma! Hiruzen will be able to smell any would be counter attack no diff with out seeing just like kakashi did in the past. SO all those cheap tactics to a ninja of his level is childsplay and can be matched!

5. Kakashi isn't that much higher. the fact that Hiruzen fought, tanked hits, used 2 B rank jutsu, fought with an extremely heavy diamond staff, used 3 clones, used reaper death seal 3 times, was stabbed in the back in a crucial spot, had a sword in his vital stop for what appeared to be an hour and was bleeding to death, and stillllllll managed to seal oru's arms.. That speaks volumes! He stamina even when old is tremendous! He just (in that fight) had to plan everything through because of the situation (edo needs to be sealed). So kakashi might be better based on screen time, but it isn't that much better with all the healing and HELP HE had.

6. Hiruzen used Mud wall to get off the ground, simple counter to Mole tech. And his sniffing will never allow him to get hit by that sneak attack.
Diamond is uneffected by Lighting. So that trick is Mute. And if He uses that trick his Chakra is cut in half and takes a huge hit! It's a reason he only used it once.. With clones that tanked RDS and stabbs they can tank the lighting. Plus it wasn't enough to put Asura path down so it isn't killing Hiruzen.



So in short:

Hiruzen is better in over all versatility or at least equal. Mole tech is easily sniffed out or enma saves or traps kakashi or blocks for Hiruzen, or Mud wall gets him off the ground. Basically so many counters. Kakshi isn't winning in close combat.. EVER! Clones match clones! Hiruzen has a counter for everything kakashi has shown as well. But with enma Hiruzen has the edge!

 

[Vexorian]

This is actually an amazing matchup. Hiruzen and Kakashi both specialize in the same type of fighting, up close and personal. If anything, I'd only say that Hiruzen wins due to Enma, as both Hiruzen and Kakashi are roughly on-par in all the other areas.

Kakashi has the Sharingan, as well as superior chakra reserves and speed.

As for Hiruzen, he has the advantage of arsenal. Wider range of jutsu at his disposal, with a wider range of elements as well. Hiruzen also has Enma, which easily outclasses Kakashi's ninja hounds.

What I do know for certain is this; Kakashi won't win with genjutsu.

I do believe, however, that Hiruzen would take this matchup at high difficulty for no other reason than having Enma.

 

[Bronze]

Kakashi Hatake decimates this old fool. Mid diff at best.

 

[VongolaX]

Hiruzen hype god-smacks Kakashi

 

[EZQ]

@draegod

I'm working on my counter! This will be a long one.