Kakashi vs Hiruzen

........

  • Hiruzen

    Votes: 13 44.8%
  • Kakashi

    Votes: 16 55.2%

  • Total voters
    29

Totsuka gg Amaterasu gg

Sannin of the Scrolls 📜
Elite
Joined
Apr 8, 2013
Messages
5,773
Reaction score
397
1. Stamina
2. Base Sharingan mastery
3. Speed
4. Intellect



He did, didn't he? As I said, the only reason he got caught into a trap was because he underestimated Zabuza.
In a one on one fight in which Kakashi would neither have to watch out for his team nor be afraid of more potential threats after Zabuza is defeated, he would take it comfortably.
Yeah, let's ignore the ten-fold stamina increase, speed/reflex increase [feats-wise], apparent Genjutsu improvement [featwise], and variety of new Ninjutsu he has displayed.

You're forgetting that 600 chapters ago, Kakashi was the guy who collapsed after five minutes of Sharingan usage, and had an unimpressive arsenal consisting of Raikiri, Kage Bunshin, and Suitons that required a source be present. Now the guy can fight for days on end, has a variety of new jutsu he didn't have in Part I (sourceless Suitons, Dotons, literally all of his Raikiri variants).

2on1... nice...

I'm way too busy so I can't afford to post a wall a text

in short
1 just because he didn't display most of his jutsus in part1 it doesn't mean he lacked them... he already had his "can use 1000 jutsus" hype from day 5(?)
2 speed.. there's no prrof at all that his speed increased much.. people just underrate Zabuza and overrate the part2 guys he fought.. that's all..
3 better stamina.. agreed...
4 better sharingan usage... agreed though a 3t is still nothing special..oops now sasuke fanboys will post walls of fail-arguments..

anyway what I just don't understand is why people say Hiruzen is much weaker / doesn't stand a chance while they still rely on OLD Hiruzen's inconsistent stamina feats to limit him to his part1 abilities while it was mentioned that his chakra decreased and it's quite obvious edo hiruzen is here to display what he was capable of...

if we imply his stamina was always crappy (though the manga clearly disagrees) then what's the point of using non-old Hiruzen?
 
Last edited:

Black Wolf

Jōnin Strategist 🧠
Regular
Joined
Jun 27, 2013
Messages
1,060
Reaction score
104
1 just because he didn't display most of his jutsus in part1 it doesn't mean he lacked them... he already had his "can use 1000 jutsus" hype from day 5(?)

It doesn't make sense for him not to have used the techniques he had if he had them all along. Regardless, from a feats perspective, which is all that really matters here, he skyrocketed. In Part I, all he had was Raikiri, Kage Bunshin, and Suitons that required a source. In Part II, he showed double Raikiri, Raikiri chain, Raikiri wolf, Raikiri projectiles, Raiton clones, sourceless Suitons, and defensive Dotons.

2 speed.. there's no prrof at all that his speed increased much.. people just underrate Zabuza and overrate the part2 guys he fought.. that's all..

Statistically speaking, Kakashi's speed went from a 4.0 to a 4.5 (databook). And I don't really see how one can overrate a V2 Jinchuuriki with shared vision and Sharingan precognition that were previously giving Bee and Naruto a handful. Nor do I see how one can overrate Obito, another top speedster. Kakashi contended with them both. And Zabuza? Look how easily Kakashi murked him a face-to-face confrontation in the current war.

3 better stamina.. agreed...

And its a point that shouldn't be downplayed. Its probably more important than all the other points combined. The guy collapsed from two Suitons and five minutes of Sharingan usage when we first saw him.

4 better sharingan usage... agreed though a 3t is still nothing special..oops now sasuke fanboys will post walls of fail-arguments..

Sure it is.

Sharingan gives you precognition, allowing you to keep up with fighters significantly faster than yourself. Sasuke managed to react to the Raikage's speed in Part II. In Part I, he managed to react to KN0 Naruto upon activating the third tomoe. Prior to the third tomoe, KN0 was running circles around Sasuke.
 

Takos

Anbu Operative 🎭
Veteran
Joined
Jan 3, 2012
Messages
2,717
Reaction score
201
Sharingan gives you precognition, allowing you to keep up with fighters significantly faster than yourself. Sasuke managed to react to the Raikage's speed in Part II. In Part I, he managed to react to KN0 Naruto upon activating the third tomoe. Prior to the third tomoe, KN0 was running circles around Sasuke.

I agree, though I don't think it really matters - Kakashi had 3T from the beginning of the series. He improved with his Sharingan, that's true, but not through obtaining 3T.

Also, Kakashi's speed is really underrated:
-he blitzed 2-tailed Naruto while being exhausted from MS usage
You must be registered for see images
-he kept up with four V2 jinchuuriki with Sharingan and a shared field of vision
-he jumped towards Black Zetsu not any slower than Minato
 

Black Wolf

Jōnin Strategist 🧠
Regular
Joined
Jun 27, 2013
Messages
1,060
Reaction score
104
I agree, though I don't think it really matters - Kakashi had 3T from the beginning of the series. He improved with his Sharingan, that's true, but not through obtaining 3T.

Never said that.

I was addressing his statement that 3T Sharingan is "nothing special."
 

Gold Lightning

Sannin of the Scrolls 📜
Elite
Joined
Jun 16, 2012
Messages
6,823
Reaction score
448
Wait, did someone say that Lightning Blade won't slice through enma?
 

Totsuka gg Amaterasu gg

Sannin of the Scrolls 📜
Elite
Joined
Apr 8, 2013
Messages
5,773
Reaction score
397
shit... I'm up against people who have tons of freetime
in this case I give up
though I still fail to see him counter giant elemental jutsus from all sides but ok

Wait, did someone say that Lightning Blade won't slice through enma?
blasphemy! how dare anyone imply a Hokage level summoning won't get fodderized in no time? :rage:
 
Last edited:

EZQ

Sannin of the Scrolls 📜
Elite
Joined
Aug 15, 2012
Messages
7,291
Reaction score
375
Sorry It took me so long, was at work. Shall we go to war?

You must be registered for see images


3 tomoe cannot predict what isn't their yet. Enma anytime he pleases (kishi). And kakashi would never see it coming till its too late.



And just like an elite 3 tomoe sasuke faced , he cannot read unpredictable and unorthodox movements since a human can only do so much with 2 arms. Then on top of that What would kakashi Block Enma with? A small Kunai???...... Think about that for a second...

In terms of speed..

You must be registered for see images



.... Damn.... When kakashi can travel that immense distance in under what seemed a minute or so... Then talk to me.. It was from , Minato and kushina said a total of about 30 sentences about the situation before Sarutobi Showed up solo!!!!! Then he Blitz Oru right to almost instantly no difficulty in old age.... Damn son! Kakashi has not shown speed feats that blow Hiruzen away. SO they are equal at best.


Taijutsu is about a tie, but add the fact He has enma goes to Hiruzen easily! Enma alone could Battle Kakashi and give him problems. You add the fact He could trap kakashi anytime he pleases.. GG?

Clones? Matched by clones! Kakashi's stamina is shit when it comes to shadow clones for battling. Add the fact all his clones would have enma shows even more.

Ninjutsu? Hiruzen>>>>>

Hiding like a mole? Sniffed out like . Basically, if he tries to sneak attack He sniffs him right away since kakashi cannot hide his scent. And the fact that Enma can protect instantly makes that strategy null and void. When he tried it on Itachi, Itachi could sniff him out so don't bring Itachi up as if him and hiruzen have anything in common in terms of battling.

Basically all of kakashi best Feats are countered. But kakashi has no counter for Most of Hiruzen's arsenal.

Then you really think Fighting long range will be the best Idea? Let alone work? Really???....

Okay, lets get this started! I'll use numbers on each of your paragraphs.

1- 3 Tomoe can't predict what isn't there yet, sure, but don't compare Part 1 Sasuke's reaction speed to Kakashi's, Kakashi can react to a susano arrow, if enma gets out of the stick he would be on time to react. Kakashi's reaction time is heavens above sasuke's.
You must be registered for see images


2- There's no need for kakashi to "block" enma, he can just dodge it, jump back or anything, Kakashi's speed is enough to keep up with v2 jins, if he reacts to enma he can dodge him. Also, Kakashi has feats of tanking a straight atack of v2 jins like here, if he can dodge the atack or just get far enough to not get a fully directed hit from enma, he would be fine.
So yeah, Kakashi can react to enma and then dodge it, and it doesn't matter if he doesn't fully dodge the atack, he just need to don't get a full punch.
You must be registered for see images

You must be registered for see images


3- Okay, let's talk about the difference of battle speed and longe distance speed... Hiruzen can cover longe distance with sunshin pretty fast, but he has no feats of being fast on a battle. If Hiruzen and Kakashi were to make a race, Hiruzen would win, big deal, on a battle Kakashi moves faster. Look at this:
You must be registered for see images

You must be registered for see images

Look at the second scan, it clearly shows that Gai is facing the 6 tails by himself (fully Bijuu mode) While Kakashi is facing 4 v2 jinjurickis... Keeping up and speedblitzing 4 v2 jinjurickis like that is a feat that Hiruzen can't get.
So Kakashi can perfectly keep up with Hiruzen with speed and i'd say outlast him, while Hiruzen has good long travelling speed feats, his speed feats on the battlefield are not that impressive like against Orochimaru.

4- I already gave scans with enough proof about Kakashi being able to react to enma, His reaction speed and foot speed are enough to react to him and dodge him. Also, kakashi can make clone feints to distract Hiruzen and enma and then atack on the back.
Kakashi is an expert on clone feints, he can definitely trick Hiruzen with one of them
You must be registered for see images


5- Lol if you think Hiruzen's clone faints feats are better than Kakashi's. Hiruzen stamina is the one that's shitty here, Kakashi on the war arc already showed his stamina is about average.

6- Kakashi has counters to all atacks, hiding like a mole is a deffence trick to avoid any elemental atack Hiruzen has, and then Kakashi can use long range and nno doubt it will work
This atack would numb enma is he tries to block it, lightining spreads trough the body, Hiruzen would also get the shock
You must be registered for see images


So:

Hiruzen is slower (battle speed) , Kakashi is definitely better with clones, has more stamina, can counter all Hiruzen elemental atacks by going underground, Can react to enma and dodge him and at the end he could finish Hiruzen when he is out of stamina.
 

Gold Lightning

Sannin of the Scrolls 📜
Elite
Joined
Jun 16, 2012
Messages
6,823
Reaction score
448
Why do people think Hiruzen can use 5 shadow clones + 5 elemental techniques at the same time. He's not pulling that off without passing out, not in his old age anyway.
 

Sendai Aka No Ou

Banned
Regular
Joined
Jun 20, 2013
Messages
780
Reaction score
112
Why do people think Hiruzen can use 5 shadow clones + 5 elemental techniques at the same time. He's not pulling that off without passing out, not in his old age anyway.

Because it wouldn't be possible for him to do it in the Edo state unless he had at least the bare minimum reserves.

It's possible that if Kakashi showed off his hyped mass of Jutsu he could pull off a win, he'll it's even possible Kakashi could copy every Jutsu Hiruzen uses, but he has no real counter for Enma, aside from raikiri, possibly.
 
Last edited:

Gold Lightning

Sannin of the Scrolls 📜
Elite
Joined
Jun 16, 2012
Messages
6,823
Reaction score
448
Because it wouldn't be possible for him to do it in the Edo state unless he had at least the bare minimum reserves.

It's possible that if Kakashi showed off his hyped mass of Jutsu he could pull off a win, he'll it's even possible Kakashi could copy every Jutsu Hiruzen uses, but he has no real counter for Enma, aside from raikiri, possibly.

Enma is not a problem at all, Kakashi has fought worse beasts. Kakashi fought Hidan and 3 of Kakuzu's hearts at the same time and avoided everyone of their attacks. How is an old man and a monkey going to be that much different from what Kakashi has already faced. A lightining chain will deal with him, or any lightning piercing attack will kill him.
 

Sendai Aka No Ou

Banned
Regular
Joined
Jun 20, 2013
Messages
780
Reaction score
112
Not really relevant in this case. Plus I'm sure most of that you're basing off the anime.

Pretty sure this monkey forced the full sized Kurama outside of the hidden leaf, but I guess that's not impressive.

And there's no concrete proof that the Raikiri will break through Enma.
 

Gold Lightning

Sannin of the Scrolls 📜
Elite
Joined
Jun 16, 2012
Messages
6,823
Reaction score
448
Not really relevant in this case. Plus I'm sure most of that you're basing off the anime.

Pretty sure this monkey forced the full sized Kurama outside of the hidden leaf, but I guess that's not impressive.

And there's no concrete proof that the Raikiri will break through Enma.
If Orochimaru's sword can hurt him, what makes you think a Lightning blade wouldn't. Someone even mentioned that Orochimaru's sword couldn't pierce 4 tails Naruto's skin but Kakashi's Raiden cut through like 4 of them like butter.
 

Sendai Aka No Ou

Banned
Regular
Joined
Jun 20, 2013
Messages
780
Reaction score
112
If Orochimaru's sword can hurt him, what makes you think a Lightning blade wouldn't. Someone even mentioned that Orochimaru's sword couldn't pierce 4 tails Naruto's skin but Kakashi's Raiden cut through like 4 of them like butter.

That's pretty much a characteristic of the blade itself. Plus it never actually put a dent in Enma.
 

Totsuka gg Amaterasu gg

Sannin of the Scrolls 📜
Elite
Joined
Apr 8, 2013
Messages
5,773
Reaction score
397
Why do people think Hiruzen can use 5 shadow clones + 5 elemental techniques at the same time. He's not pulling that off without passing out, not in his old age anyway.

mostly because OP didn't said this is the old Hiruzen with decreased chakra
Enma is not a problem at all, Kakashi has fought worse beasts. Kakashi fought Hidan and 3 of Kakuzu's hearts at the same time and avoided everyone of their attacks. How is an old man and a monkey going to be that much different from what Kakashi has already faced. A lightining chain will deal with him, or any lightning piercing attack will kill him.
never heard about evasion / compares Kakuzu's elemental jutsus to the ones which were as powerfull as the gedo mazo's attacks / implies Kakashi avoided everything (I thought he got fodderized and Shikamaru's plot timing saved him but I must have been reading wrong manga)
smart!
 

EZQ

Sannin of the Scrolls 📜
Elite
Joined
Aug 15, 2012
Messages
7,291
Reaction score
375
mostly because OP didn't said this is the old Hiruzen with decreased chakra

never heard about evasion / compares Kakuzu's elemental jutsus to the ones which were as powerfull as the gedo mazo's attacks / implies Kakashi avoided everything (I thought he got fodderized and Shikamaru's plot timing saved him but I must have been reading wrong manga)
smart!

Kakashi kept up with 4 v2 jins, he can easely handle the old man with the monkey
 

Champ

Kage in the Making 👑
Legendary
Joined
Dec 18, 2011
Messages
11,143
Reaction score
661
Sarutobi wins. He's better than Kakashi
 

wael reda

Anbu Operative 🎭
Veteran
Joined
Dec 13, 2012
Messages
3,130
Reaction score
69
That's pretty much a characteristic of the blade itself. Plus it never actually put a dent in Enma.

enma was never said to be unpierceable in the manga ,while raiki was said to be able to cut any thing
enma has no body feats or hype stop overrating everything hiruzen has
v2 cloak defense feats shits on featless enma yet lightening chain was able to cut it no diff
so what makes you think that enma cant be pierced
 
Top