Kakashi vs Hiruzen

[miromiro]

i remember enma saying that kusongai sword is sore to him(hiruzen vs oro part 1)
this kusongai couldnt go through v2 jin(oro vs naruto )
while kakashi lightening chain was able to cut v2 jin arms easily
so kakashis lightening techs(raiki and its shaps) can cut enma easily too,simple math

'Dat logic.

 

[EZQ]

Hiruzen is no way smarter than kakashi, he only has one feat, don't go further with that subject, Kakashi is the 2nd when it comes to battle anallysis if not the best.

To counter the elemental combo kakashi goes underground.

Enma is no way grabbing kakashi, he's too fast for hiruzen, and if he does it could be kakashi's clone feint.

 

[Draegod]

Hiruzen is no way smarter than kakashi, he only has one feat, don't go further with that subject, Kakashi is the 2nd when it comes to battle anallysis if not the best.

To counter the elemental combo kakashi goes underground.

Enma is no way grabbing kakashi, he's too fast for hiruzen, and if he does it could be kakashi's clone feint.

Kakashi cannot predict what isn't there yet. Emma owns! Hiding like a mole is simply running momentarily, in that time hiruzen will be prepared for anything, nothing kakashi does will surprise nor beat hiruzen. Emma protects from all attacks and attack while defending. Hiruzen has clones aswell so bringing them up is moot especially since his clones can have enma.

 

[EZQ]

Kakashi cannot predict what isn't there yet. Emma owns! Hiding like a mole is simply running momentarily, in that time hiruzen will be prepared for anything, nothing kakashi does will surprise nor beat hiruzen. Emma protects from all attacks and attack while defending. Hiruzen has clones aswell so bringing them up is moot especially since his clones can have enma.

Your whole argument is based on mere assumptions. What makes you think nothing kakashi does will surprise Hiruzen? Kakashi surprises Itachi with clone feints, it was 30% chakra Itachi but that doesn't mean he's just 30% smart.

I don't see Enma touching Kakashi at his current speed, he can keep up with 4 v2 jins, what makes you think Enma is going to "own" him?

Saying "Hiruzen will be prepared for anything" has no backup support, If Hiruzen makes his elemental combo and he suddently doesn't see Kakashi there, what makes you think he would be prepared for Kakashi going out from the floor? Not even Itachi saw that coming.
Anyways I could say the same with Kakashi, he would be prepared for anything, since he knows Hiruzen is no ordinary shinobi.

When it comes to clone feints, Kakashi is superior to Hiruzen by feats, its the same when it comes to battle anallysis, Kakashi can make anallysis and provide a valid counter to the enemie's atacks, we already saw that against Pain, Obito, Itachi and Zabuza (on their 3 encounters). He would find a counter against enma, he's smart enough to know enma is very strong and fast (he probably would figure that out with a clone faint first) and then figure out that he has to keep long range and not get close to the monkey.

Kakashi, even without Kamui, beats Hiruzen.

 

[Gold Lightning]

Just to clarify, Hiruzen isn't using 5 shadow clones plus 5 elemental techniques at once in his old age. Only Edo Hiruzen can do that. The old man could barely use 3 shadow clones against orochimaru.

Anyway the poll speaks for itself.

 

[Totsuka gg Amaterasu gg]

Anyway the poll speaks for itself.

the poll is so meaningful when we're comparing one of the most overwanked characters to the most bashed/underrated/trolled one
you're a genious

 

[Takos]

the poll is so meaningful when we're comparing one of the most overwanked characters to the most bashed/underrated/trolled one
you're a genious

It's true polls do not prove anything, but the fact of the matter is, Kakashi wins anyway.

 

[Totsuka gg Amaterasu gg]

It's true polls do not prove anything, but the fact of the matter is, Kakashi wins anyway.

not really
it's a matter of opinion (just like every vs)

 

[Gold Lightning]

the poll is so meaningful when we're comparing one of the most overwanked characters to the most bashed/underrated/trolled one
you're a genious

Lol, you think kakashi is more over wanked than Hiruzen. Do you not see the dozens of Hiruzen threads made everyday?

It's not my fault majority know that Hiruzen doesn't stand a chance against current kakashi.

 

[Totsuka gg Amaterasu gg]

Lol, you think kakashi is more over wanked than Hiruzen. Do you not see the dozens of Hiruzen threads made everyday?

member since 2012... still unable to make a difference between real fanboyism and sarcasm/irony... :/

It's not my fault majority know that Hiruzen doesn't stand a chance against current kakashi.

as I said it's a matter of opinion

 

[Gold Lightning]

member since 2012... still unable to make a difference between real fanboyism and sarcasm/irony... :/
as I said it's a matter of opinion

Keep telling yourself that. Hiruzen has been one of the most overrated characters I've ever seen. If you can't see that then gtfo

 

[Totsuka gg Amaterasu gg]

Keep telling yourself that. Hiruzen has been one of the most overrated characters I've ever seen. If you can't see that then gtfo

1 show me any non-troll thread overrating Hiruzen
2 how is he overrated when most people think he loses the guy who couldn't even solo' Zabuza without knowledge?

 

[Takos]

1 show me any non-troll thread overrating Hiruzen
2 how is he overrated when most people think he loses the guy who couldn't even solo' Zabuza without knowledge?

He actually could:
1. Zabuza catching Kakashi in Water Prison was a failure on Kakashi's part to protect his team, true, but Zabuza would need to release him to finish him off. So, that wasn't a defeat.
2. Kakashi underestimated Zabuza, which he himself said. Didn't you notice how Zabuza was utterly destroyed the moment Kakashi stopped screwing around (that is, as soon as he got out of the prison?). Kakashi not going all out at beginning, however, is understandable - they were in the middle of a mission with possibly more assassins targetting them than Zabuza. Kakashi had to try to conserve as much stamina as he could.

So, to sum it up - Kakashi was ALWAYS stronger than Zabuza by quite a margin.

3. Bringing Part 1 Kakashi into the fight against current Kakashi is the worst kind of downplay one can do on the base.

 

[Totsuka gg Amaterasu gg]

He actually could:
1. Zabuza catching Kakashi in Water Prison was a failure on Kakashi's part to protect his team, true, but Zabuza would need to release him to finish him off. So, that wasn't a defeat.
2. Kakashi underestimated Zabuza, which he himself said. Didn't you notice how Zabuza was utterly destroyed the moment Kakashi stopped screwing around (that is, as soon as he got out of the prison?). Kakashi not going all out at beginning, however, is understandable - they were in the middle of a mission with possibly more assassins targetting them than Zabuza. Kakashi had to try to conserve as much stamina as he could.

So, to sum it up - Kakashi was ALWAYS stronger than Zabuza by quite a margin.

if he was always much stronger then he should have solo'd him even with his team out there

3. Bringing Part 1 Kakashi into the fight against current Kakashi is the worst kind of downplay one can do on the base.

the only significant powerup he gained in the previous 600 chapters is restricted so I can't see how it is...

 

[Black Wolf]

the only significant powerup he gained in the previous 600 chapters is restricted so I can't see how it is...

Yeah, let's ignore the ten-fold stamina increase, speed/reflex increase [feats-wise], apparent Genjutsu improvement [featwise], and variety of new Ninjutsu he has displayed.

You're forgetting that 600 chapters ago, Kakashi was the guy who collapsed after five minutes of Sharingan usage, and had an unimpressive arsenal consisting of Raikiri, Kage Bunshin, and Suitons that required a source be present. Now the guy can fight for days on end, has a variety of new jutsu he didn't have in Part I (sourceless Suitons, Dotons, literally all of his Raikiri variants).

 

[Takos]

if he was always much stronger then he should have solo'd him even with his team out there

the only significant powerup he gained in the previous 600 chapters is restricted so I can't see how it is...

1. Stamina
2. Base Sharingan mastery
3. Speed
4. Intellect

if he was always much stronger then he should have solo'd him even with his team out there

He did, didn't he? As I said, the only reason he got caught into a trap was because he underestimated Zabuza.
In a one on one fight in which Kakashi would neither have to watch out for his team nor be afraid of more potential threats after Zabuza is defeated, he would take it comfortably.

 

[EZQ]

He actually could:
1. Zabuza catching Kakashi in Water Prison was a failure on Kakashi's part to protect his team, true, but Zabuza would need to release him to finish him off. So, that wasn't a defeat.
2. Kakashi underestimated Zabuza, which he himself said. Didn't you notice how Zabuza was utterly destroyed the moment Kakashi stopped screwing around (that is, as soon as he got out of the prison?). Kakashi not going all out at beginning, however, is understandable - they were in the middle of a mission with possibly more assassins targetting them than Zabuza. Kakashi had to try to conserve as much stamina as he could.

So, to sum it up - Kakashi was ALWAYS stronger than Zabuza by quite a margin.

3. Bringing Part 1 Kakashi into the fight against current Kakashi is the worst kind of downplay one can do on the base.

The fact is that Zabuza is underrated, He could take part 1 kakashi, it doesn't mean part1 kakashi is fodder, Zabuza is an elite jonnin level.

 

[Takos]

The fact is that Zabuza is underrated, He could take part 1 kakashi, it doesn't mean part1 kakashi is fodder, Zabuza is an elite jonnin level.

I partially agree.
I agree that Zabuza is underrated. And I think he's even high jonin to low kage when counting not only open battle power, but also assassination prowess.
But I disagree on him being able to take Kakashi at any point.

 

[Draegod]

Your whole argument is based on mere assumptions. What makes you think nothing kakashi does will surprise Hiruzen? Kakashi surprises Itachi with clone feints, it was 30% chakra Itachi but that doesn't mean he's just 30% smart.

I don't see Enma touching Kakashi at his current speed, he can keep up with 4 v2 jins, what makes you think Enma is going to "own" him?

Saying "Hiruzen will be prepared for anything" has no backup support, If Hiruzen makes his elemental combo and he suddently doesn't see Kakashi there, what makes you think he would be prepared for Kakashi going out from the floor? Not even Itachi saw that coming.
Anyways I could say the same with Kakashi, he would be prepared for anything, since he knows Hiruzen is no ordinary shinobi.

When it comes to clone feints, Kakashi is superior to Hiruzen by feats, its the same when it comes to battle anallysis, Kakashi can make anallysis and provide a valid counter to the enemie's atacks, we already saw that against Pain, Obito, Itachi and Zabuza (on their 3 encounters). He would find a counter against enma, he's smart enough to know enma is very strong and fast (he probably would figure that out with a clone faint first) and then figure out that he has to keep long range and not get close to the monkey.

Kakashi, even without Kamui, beats Hiruzen.

Sorry It took me so long, was at work. Shall we go to war?

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3 tomoe cannot predict what isn't their yet. Enma

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anytime he pleases (kishi). And kakashi would never see it coming till its too late.

Databook 2 - Henge Kongōnyoi:
Ninjutsu: Transformation-Diamond Shifting Staff(TN: directly translating does not really work due to the myths/ legends background of Kongōnyoi)
Supplementary

User: Monkey king Enma

-Caption
Under a Nyoi/Staff form he assumes at will, Enma becomes Diamond (TN: or Adamantine/Vajra if you prefer) and bares his fangs!!

-main text
The third hokage's comrade in arms, the monkey king enma's transformation jutsu Characterized by the hardness of diamond and its at-will extensibility, Kongou Nyoi-Bou is Sandaime's"weapon of choice", so to speak and with it in hand he's made it through a world of war for an extended period of time.

Also, when Enma is transformed into Diamond Shifting Staff, it is also possible that he can attack out of his own free will, his claws and fangs add an element of surprise and irregularity. Forged in the fire of battle, its at-will transformation-based attack and defense go beyond the scope of proficiency, to attain the realm of Shinobi "godhood".

-picture comments

-The main method of attack consists in strikes and thrusts that take advantage of its extensibility. The hardness of diamond translates into destructive power.

-Enma's fangs assault the enemy!

And just like an elite 3 tomoe sasuke faced

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, he cannot read unpredictable and unorthodox movements since a human can only do so much with 2 arms. Then on top of that What would kakashi Block Enma with? A small Kunai???...... Think about that for a second...

In terms of speed..

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.... Damn.... When kakashi can travel that immense distance in under what seemed a minute or so... Then talk to me.. It was from

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, Minato and kushina said a total of about 30 sentences about the situation before

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Sarutobi Showed up solo!!!!! Then he Blitz Oru right

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to

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almost instantly no difficulty in old age.... Damn son! Kakashi has not shown speed feats that blow Hiruzen away. SO they are equal at best.


Taijutsu is about a tie, but add the fact He has enma goes to Hiruzen easily! Enma alone could Battle Kakashi and give him problems. You add the fact He could trap kakashi anytime he pleases.. GG?

Clones? Matched by clones! Kakashi's stamina is shit when it comes to shadow clones for battling. Add the fact all his clones would have enma shows even more.

Ninjutsu? Hiruzen>>>>>

Hiding like a mole? Sniffed out like

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. Basically, if he tries to sneak attack He sniffs him right away since kakashi cannot hide his scent. And the fact that Enma can protect instantly makes that strategy null and void. When he tried it on Itachi, Itachi could sniff him out so don't bring Itachi up as if him and hiruzen have anything in common in terms of battling.

Basically all of kakashi best Feats are countered. But kakashi has no counter for Most of Hiruzen's arsenal.

Then you really think Fighting long range will be the best Idea? Let alone work? Really???....

 

[Black Wolf]

Then on top of that What would kakashi Block Enma with? A small Kunai???...... Think about that for a second...

A seal-less Raikiri, ala Kakuzu's Raiton Gian.

In terms of speed..

.... Damn.... When kakashi can travel that immense distance in under what seemed a minute or so... Then talk to me.. It was from

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, Minato and kushina said a total of about 30 sentences about the situation before

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Sarutobi Showed up solo!!!!! Then he Blitz Oru right

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to

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almost instantly no difficulty in old age....

Off panel travel =/= in-battle speed feat. There is no objective way to measure it since there is nothing to gauge it against. Sentences are an inconsistent measuring tool for off-panel travel speed.

Kakashi has off-panel speed feats of intercepting Deva and Sasuke mid-strike when they were mere centimeters away from hitting their respective targets (Sakura and Iruka respectively). Kakashi has the off-panel speed feat of traveling across countries while simultaneously keeping up with a gated Gai to back up Naruto, arriving half a day before the rest of the alliance did. None of those are applicable speed feats in battle, though, which is why you don't see them being used.

Clones? Matched by clones! Kakashi's stamina is shit when it comes to shadow clones for battling. Add the fact all his clones would have enma shows even more.

He used two of them (clones) in this war, combined with eight Raikiri variants, five Kamui (one of which was building sized - Gedo's head). Clones aren't tiring him, and Hiruzen isn't beating Kakashi in a battle of attrition with his stamina feats.

Hiding like a mole? Sniffed out like

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. Basically, if he tries to sneak attack He sniffs him right away since kakashi cannot hide his scent.

Evidence that Hiruzen now has Kiba-level smelling prowess?

Hiding underground with dirt, rocks, and worms conceals your scent a lot better than when above ground, with nothing else for your scent to mix with. It isn't comparable at all. Furthermore, Kakashi will likely send out a clone to distract Hiruzen, further inhibiting the effectiveness of smelling.