Kakashi vs Hiruzen

[BenjerminGaye]

Not the same jutsus, he didn't copy them. He used elemental atacks to counter the shinsu's atack, he didn't copy anything.
(The statue doesn't make seals)

They made the same seal. Look good. He copied the shinsu's attack.

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[EZQ]

They made the same seal. Look good. He copied the shinsu's attack.

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First, there are no seals, the statue just opened the mouth

Second, Hiruzen CANT copy jutsus, he doesn't have the sharingan, he just knew how to perform those jutsus before.

Oh i just saw the staute making the handseal, it still doesn't change the fact that Hiruzen knew them before, he can't copy jutsus.

 

[Gold Lightning]

They made the same seal. Look good. He copied the shinsu's attack.

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So the Shinsu uses 1 hand while Hiruzen uses 2 hands.

That's the same seal???

 

[BenjerminGaye]

What are eelemental techniques going to do to Kakashi???

- He counters lightning with his own lightning (like he did to kakuzu).

- He counters earth with his own earth or lightning techniques.

- He counters fire with water

- He counters water with earth or his own water (we've seen the size of Kakashi's water Dragon and we've seen how impressive hos water wall is).

- wind can arguably be blocked with an earth wall or water projectile.

At the end of the day, why should it matter when kakashi can avoid every elemental jutsu Hiruzen used (in the latest chapter) by simply going underground.

He can evade and side step most of the techniques fairly easily. People forget what the sharingans initial purpose is these days. Combine that with kakashi's superior speed and it's gg.

He can't make them on the same scale hiruzen did. So if he tries to counter lightning with lightning he gets over powered.

Same goes for earth.

Fire combined with wind can't be countered with water. We already saw that with kakazu

Water gets overpowered by water(especially since hiruzen has a water source) and can get buffed even further with wind.

He has no good counter for wind.

With ennma kakashi would get manhandled in cqc.

With no Intel kakashi wouldn't expect him to use all 5 elements. He gets out scaled and overpowered. The fight would end much like zabuza's first fight with kakashi.

 

[BenjerminGaye]

So the Shinsu uses 1 hand while Hiruzen uses 2 hands.

That's the same seal???

The shinsuu has more than one hand. He used two just like hiruzen did cuz hiruzen copied him.
The only person to use one hand seals was haku.

 

[EZQ]

The shinsuu has more than one hand. He used two just like hiruzen did cuz hiruzen copied him.
The only person to use one hand seals was haku.

Hiruzen didn't copy them, he knew how to perform them before, he doesn't have the sharingan to do that, he can't see the chakra flow so he can't copy.

 

[wael reda]

Stoped reading after you said kakashi cuts enma with lightning jutsu. You cant be serious.


To OT: Hiruzen wins. I find it kinda unfair that you limit reaper death but continue to allow kakashi to have kumai, but this isn't my thread so oh well.

if this was a actual battle and they were in character (as your conditions say), then kakashi would not out right start with kumai, he would wait till he was in a situation were he had no other choice. This means that somewhere before that time they will end up in a close combat situation, which will be regrettable for kakashi because hiruzen will lace him with explosive tags.

Now if for any reason kakashi uses kumai, this goes to him since you didn't give either shinobi intel on the other.

In the bonus, danzo and hiruzen take this.

yes,raiki can cut enma
here ,enma said that kusongai is sore to him and can hurt him
narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/120/11
this kusongai wasnt able to go throught v2 jin when oro fought naruto
but lightening chain was able cut about 5 v2 jin arms with no diff
so raiki can cut enma no diff,simple math

restricting kamui by the way you mentioned is bullshit
three chapters ago,kakashi used kamui on the gedo in the fight first second
so kakashi has the right to use kamui in any time in the battle
and as i said kakashi wins without kamui too

 

[Gold Lightning]

He can't make them on the same scale hiruzen did. So if he tries to counter lightning with lightning he gets over powered.

Same goes for earth.

Fire combined with wind can't be countered with water. We already saw that with kakazu

Water gets overpowered by water(especially since hiruzen has a water source) and can get buffed even further with wind.

He has no good counter for wind.

With ennma kakashi would get manhandled in cqc.

With no Intel kakashi wouldn't expect him to use all 5 elements. He gets out scaled and overpowered. The fight would end much like zabuza's first fight with kakashi.

Kakuzu used a bigger lightning technique which kakashi countered.

You're underestimating the scale of Kakashi's techniques. His water Dragon is bigger that the size of the jutsu Hiruzen used. His water wall was strong enough to at least hold off a combined fire and wind (not counter). His earth wall is large enough to block any water, wind, or fire technique. Even if the technique is larger than the earth wall, we already saw Hiruzen do that to Tobirama in part 1 he used an earth wall to divert tobirAmas large water jutsu. The water just went either side of the wall and left Hiruzen unharmed.

You act like Kakashi hasn't faced a 5 elemental ninja before. Kakashi won't lose in cqc, have you forgotten how amazing his taijutsu is plus his speed. He fought and evaded Hidan and Kakuzus 3 hearts simultaneously without getting hit. Hiruzen and Enma we no problem.

 

[Touken]

Kakuzu used a bigger lightning technique which kakashi countered.

You're underestimating the scale of Kakashi's techniques. His water Dragon is bigger that the size of the jutsu Hiruzen used. His water wall was strong enough to at least hold off a combined fire and wind (not counter). His earth wall is large enough to block any water, wind, or fire technique. Even if the technique is larger than the earth wall, we already saw Hiruzen do that to Tobirama in part 1 he used an earth wall to divert tobirAmas large water jutsu. The water just went either side of the wall and left Hiruzen unharmed.

You act like Kakashi hasn't faced a 5 elemental ninja before. Kakashi won't lose in cqc, have you forgotten how amazing his taijutsu is plus his speed. He fought and evaded Hidan and Kakuzus 3 hearts simultaneously without getting hit. Hiruzen and Enma we no problem.

The GIF in your sig... where's it from?

 

[xKiD SPiiD3rMaN]

Kakashi's handseals are too fast for Hiruzen to see and copy before Kakashi activates his jutsu. So even if he can use all the elements, he'll be pretty much in the dark as to what jutsu Kakashi is using until it's already physically manifested itself.

Not to say that Hiruzen would lose because of that, I just don't think comparing the mini-buddha's handseals to Kakashi's is even valid.

 

[miromiro]

Team Kakashi takes both scenarios high difficulty.

 

[BenjerminGaye]

Kakuzu used a bigger lightning technique which kakashi countered.

For some reason you dont realize how small hiruzen is compared to the attacks he used

Spoiler

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Hiruzens attack(done by clones btw)

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kakazu's mask

You're underestimating the scale of Kakashi's techniques. His water Dragon is bigger that the size of the jutsu Hiruzen used.

Hiruzen's clone did it and it was comparable/ greater then what kakashi did with a preexisting body of water.

His water wall was strong enough to at least hold off a combined fire and wind (not counter). His earth wall is large enough to block any water, wind, or fire technique. Even if the technique is larger than the earth wall, we already saw Hiruzen do that to Tobirama in part 1 he used an earth wall to divert tobirAmas large water jutsu. The water just went either side of the wall and left Hiruzen unharmed.

See but we also saw that hiruzen has the ability to manipulate the flames when he uses dragon flame jutsu starting small then wrapping itself around tobirama's water wall. the same can be done to the earth wall and still hit kakashi.

You act like Kakashi hasn't faced a 5 elemental ninja before. Kakashi won't lose in cqc, have you forgotten how amazing his taijutsu is plus his speed. He fought and evaded Hidan and Kakuzus 3 hearts simultaneously without getting hit. Hiruzen and Enma we no problem.

The masks each had only one affinity. Hiruzen and his clones have access to all 5, and given that he doesn't know the nature of enma's attacks(or hiruzen knowing all 5 elements) he gets trashed in cqc.

First, there are no seals, the statue just opened the mouth

Second, Hiruzen CANT copy jutsus, he doesn't have the sharingan, he just knew how to perform those jutsus before.

Oh i just saw the staute making the handseal, it still doesn't change the fact that Hiruzen knew them before, he can't copy jutsus.

Spoiler

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even spiral zetsu says it

 

[Gold Lightning]

The GIF in your sig... where's it from?

Naruto Shippuden opening 12:


I love that part because it shows how Minato would utilize FTG to get the better of his opponent in cqc. You may not be able to see it clearly since they are moving too fast but Minato tosses his kunai behind bee, which allows him to teleport behind him and blast him off with rasengan.

 

[EZQ]

For some reason you dont realize how small hiruzen is compared to the attacks he used

Spoiler

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Hiruzens attack(done by clones btw)

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kakazu's mask

Hiruzen's clone did it and it was comparable/ greater then what kakashi did with a preexisting body of water.


See but we also saw that hiruzen has the ability to manipulate the flames when he uses dragon flame jutsu starting small then wrapping itself around tobirama's water wall. the same can be done to the earth wall and still hit kakashi.


The masks each had only one affinity. Hiruzen and his clones have access to all 5, and given that he doesn't know the nature of enma's attacks(or hiruzen knowing all 5 elements) he gets trashed in cqc.

Spoiler

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even spiral zetsu says it

You are right about Hiruzen's elemental atacks > Kakashi's. But wrong about Hiruzen copying jutsus, Hiruzen just knew how to perform them before, he cant see chakra flow like with sharingan so he can't copy jutsus.