Kaguya is different to Hagoromo in that she's explicitly been portrayed as an autocrat, someone who lusts for power and control. How anyone can know that and accept without hesitation Mads is truly safe from her lust for power and control is beyond me. It is not within an autocrat's nature to willingly cede power and control even if it means seeing a similar candidate as them in a position of ultimate power. Rather, it must be them that is in the position of ultimate power. Autocrat's by nature are inherently manipulative and opportunistic. Kaguya right now is donating to a PAC in support of Mads with the sole intention of gaining enough political favor to be in a position to takeover. How many times do we this in real life? Too many unfortunately.
Kaguya is different to Hagoromo in that she's explicitly been portrayed as an autocrat, someone who lusts for power and control. How anyone can know that and accept without hesitation Mads is truly safe from her lust for power and control is beyond me. It is not within an autocrat's nature to willingly cede power and control even if it means seeing a similar candidate as them in a position of ultimate power. Rather, it must be them that is in the position of ultimate power. Autocrat's by nature are inherently manipulative and opportunistic. Kaguya right now is donating to a PAC in support of Mads with the sole intention of gaining enough political favor to be in a position to takeover. How many times do we this in real life? Too many unfortunately.
Kaguya is different to Hagoromo in that she's explicitly been portrayed as an autocrat, someone who lusts for power and control. How anyone can know that and accept without hesitation Mads is truly safe from her lust for power and control is beyond me. It is not within an autocrat's nature to willingly cede power and control even if it means seeing a similar candidate as them in a position of ultimate power. Rather, it must be them that is in the position of ultimate power. Autocrat's by nature are inherently manipulative and opportunistic. Kaguya right now is donating to a PAC in support of Mads with the sole intention of gaining enough political favor to be in a position to takeover. How many times do we this in real life? Too many unfortunately.
Kaguya is different to Hagoromo in that she's explicitly been portrayed as an autocrat, someone who lusts for power and control. How anyone can know that and accept without hesitation Mads is truly safe from her lust for power and control is beyond me. It is not within an autocrat's nature to willingly cede power and control even if it means seeing a similar candidate as them in a position of ultimate power. Rather, it must be them that is in the position of ultimate power. Autocrat's by nature are inherently manipulative and opportunistic. Kaguya right now is donating to a PAC in support of Mads with the sole intention of gaining enough political favor to be in a position to takeover. How many times do we this in real life? Too many unfortunately.
Agreed. In some form, she's going to make a return. I rather it not be through Madara, but rather her using him to somehow resurrect herself, even if that means that she uses his body as a vessel allowing for transformation into herself. Through her defeat, can her sins be atoned for, just as the brothers tried to do in the past. Through her defeat, can true peace be wrought. All else, she'll just keep coming back.
The progenitor of chakra, the mother of the Sage of the Six Path, the person that was responsible for initially letting the Ten Tails run ramparts after angering the God Tree, the first person to utilize the Infinite Tsukuyomi and lastly the one that has brought the mindset of using chakra as a means of weaponry that has led to so much suffering in the ninja world.
We all kind of saw this coming through the hints, but now we can pretty much say who the REAL cause of this madness is.
I doubt she is the "final villain." I think her character will end up becoming far more complex.
The real "final villain," if Naruto could be said to have one, is the Sage of Six Paths... or, rather - the Sage of the Outer Path. This is a man who had immense foresight and who had the ability to project himself into the future.
So, in his infinite wisdom, what does he do? He gives chakra (immense, unnatural power) to people and tells them to use it to get close to and understand each other.
He knew -exactly- what people would do with it, and that is why he did it. He had to engineer a conflict for his sons to resolve using conflicting ideologies. He knew that the descendants of his elder son would default towards the use of power and natural talent because of its expedience in gaining advantageous results. This is why he left the tablet telling of how to obtain additional power that could be read only by them. Further hints of obtaining power were 'locked' to all except those who had already sold substantial parts of their conscience and being to obtain even greater power.
The motive?
To create the Elixir of Life and use it to free Kaguya from her bonds as the Dead Demon. Or perhaps his own immortality. Everything the Sage says must be understood as his attempt to engineer a specific outcome.
Kaguya's role is likely that of the subject of his engineering.
I doubt she is the "final villain." I think her character will end up becoming far more complex.
The real "final villain," if Naruto could be said to have one, is the Sage of Six Paths... or, rather - the Sage of the Outer Path. This is a man who had immense foresight and who had the ability to project himself into the future.
So, in his infinite wisdom, what does he do? He gives chakra (immense, unnatural power) to people and tells them to use it to get close to and understand each other.
He knew -exactly- what people would do with it, and that is why he did it. He had to engineer a conflict for his sons to resolve using conflicting ideologies. He knew that the descendants of his elder son would default towards the use of power and natural talent because of its expedience in gaining advantageous results. This is why he left the tablet telling of how to obtain additional power that could be read only by them. Further hints of obtaining power were 'locked' to all except those who had already sold substantial parts of their conscience and being to obtain even greater power.
The motive?
To create the Elixir of Life and use it to free Kaguya from her bonds as the Dead Demon. Or perhaps his own immortality. Everything the Sage says must be understood as his attempt to engineer a specific outcome.
Kaguya's role is likely that of the subject of his engineering.
She may be the villain inside of IT... maybe that's why she wanted IT to happen, she only exists as a chakra being and therefore would only be able to interact with the world through IT. Or maybe she will bloom from the fruit, using the chakra of the SA in order to give her her body back... could be cool.
Well technically it does, since Madara's plan is to make a dream world where the concepts of winners and losers don't exist aka paradise. Kaguya on the other hand appears to be hellbent on cruelty and torture so she might take over Maddy's dreamworld and turn it into nightmare land.
Technically it does not. You cannot state as fact who the final villain is until the manga has ended. 100 chapters ago, you did not even know Kishi would introduce Kaguya. Back then it was all obito's show.
I think the sages brother is the reaper death seal. Both had long hair and I think he sacrificed himself to seal the juubi, hence becoming the reaper. I could be wrong though.
Problem is Hagoromo is pragmatic, Kaguya on the other hand is an autocrat, and ancient evil tyrants are never ever contented to take the backseat for another antagonist, that is not how the nature of evil works.
Kaguya is different to Hagoromo in that she's explicitly been portrayed as an autocrat, someone who lusts for power and control. How anyone can know that and accept without hesitation Mads is truly safe from her lust for power and control is beyond me. It is not within an autocrat's nature to willingly cede power and control even if it means seeing a similar candidate as them in a position of ultimate power. Rather, it must be them that is in the position of ultimate power. Autocrat's by nature are inherently manipulative and opportunistic. Kaguya right now is donating to a PAC in support of Mads with the sole intention of gaining enough political favor to be in a position to takeover. How many times do we this in real life? Too many unfortunately.
You perhaps misapprehended my post, which isn't your fault because my statement was unclear and prone to faulty comprehension. I'll just explain it in a different way.
Kaguya is an autocrat, and also the ultimate manipulator and mastermind behind the development of Madara's Project Tsuki no me IMO, but still not the final villain substantially. I am quite familiar with the nature of an autocrat (reference to Madara and Obito's case, the former being a manipulative authoritarian in nature like Kaguya).
Kaguya is the god tree IMO. She took that form perhaps as a side effect of eating the Shinju's fruit, but she is undoubtedly the god tree.
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When Madara absorbed the god tree, Kaguya basically merged with Madara, utilizing his body to obtain a physical human form for herself (as a body for her soul and a medium for her powers) while also manipulating Madara to establish her purposes and execute her powers. This is an essence of Kaguya's powers residing within Madara.
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It's not like she is willingly insistent for Madara to be her successor or replacement for "god status", its just that she has no other option. She is a f***ing tree, so she can't do anything herself. She needs someone's assistance to execute IT and unleash the power of the 9 Tomoe Sharingan. She is utilizing Madara's body as her own vessel. She is using Madara for herself. Basically, Madara is Kaguya. But Hagoromo isn't committing anything similar. He isn't manipulating anyone, and he isn't using anyone's body for his own benefit to shape the world as he wants through corrupt and oppressive means. He also isn't opportunistic like Kaguya.
Hagoromo entrusted the responsibility to protect the world to Naruto and Sasuke, and granted them a portion of his powers for that reason. Kaguya on the other hand didn't entrust Madara with anything. She is doing everything herself through Madara. She is basically utilizing Madara's body as her own physical human form. It is just a vessel for Kaguya's soul, but not temporary, a permanent one (will be like that until the god tree is released from Madara). Also, Hagoromo exhibited himself in Naruto and Sasuke's subconsciousness as a spirit, whereas Kaguya is an actual being presiding within Madara. Her role is definitely different from Hagoromo's. So I'm not neglecting the difference between Hagomoro's "pragmatism" and Kaguya's "dictatorship". My argument goes in accord with your description.
Kaguya's role of "indirect villain" is divergent from Hagoromo's role as "final hero/savior", but it is still indirect. To make things simpler, I'll abandon the word "indirect" used in association with Hagoromo, because its correspondence is dissimilar to Kaguya's case, and using the same word to signify two distinct objects in the same argument isn't a good idea, and will likely lead to misconception and fallacy.
Kaguya's autocrat nature remains intact in my argument, but she isn't the final villain no matter how you shape this situation. Kaguya isn't actually the final villain, but you could refer her as "final villain" because Madara IS Kaguya, and Madara is the final villain. Kaguya is the ultimate antagonist, but only INDIRECTLY through Madara.
Kaguya will not be the final villain
I personally believed Kaguya to be the final villain right after Hagoromo unveiled information regarding her and her powers (stating Kaguya to be stronger even than himself), partially owing to her autocrat nature. I assumed that Madara's defeat will somehow pave way for Kaguya to resume her control over the world and play her role as FV, similar to what Madara did with Obito. But I discarded my belief subsequent to Madara's manifestion of the third eye and the launch of Infinite Tsukuyomi.
Here is why I affirm that Kaguya won't make any actual or separate appearance following Madara's defeat, or even if she does, it wouldn't be a stable one to subsist as a final villain:
1. Madara is already in possession of Kaguya's powers, in addition to Hagoromo's aptitude. So he is technically stronger than Kaguya in his current state. Her succession to Madara's role of villain will veritably be a downgrade, and a final villain is never inept in comparison to the preceding one.
2. Her Sharingan was the most powerful tool she retained, which can potentially dominate everyone from Konohamaru to Hagoromo. It is also the only reason Hagoromo calls his mother stronger than him. Let's consider that eating the fruit bequeathed Kaguya every power of the Juubi, radically converting her into its replica which granted her the Juubi's body (body resembling the Juubi's jinchuuriki i.e an innate natural energy absorber endowing unlimited chakra) and the Juubi's eye (9 Tomoe Sharingan) on top of the Byakugan which she intrinsically possessed (Otsutsuki = Hyuga). If Hagoromo bore the ability to negate IT, then his powers easily foreshadowed Kaguya's, being that it would be a Byakugan vs Rinnegan contest, and the Byakugan undoubtedly pales in comparison, and the rest would be evenly matched, hence theoretically cancelled out. So she is essentially the Juubi's jinchuuriki with the Byakugan whereas Madara is the same but with the Rinnegan. Sasuke can neutralize the effect of IT which leaves Kaguya to rely on the Byakugan and her bodily powers, which is inferior to Madara's prowess. This makes Kaguya a comparatively incompetent opponent, and Naruto and Sasuke can stomp her with relative ease.
3. IT has already been casted, so there is nothing more to the plot her appearance is necessary for. She as a final villain wouldn't make any difference to the plot as it will only result in a successive propulsion of IT, which is pointless.
I think the sages brother is the reaper death seal. Both had long hair and I think he sacrificed himself to seal the juubi, hence becoming the reaper. I could be wrong though.
No, he is not the reaper... Nobody is the f***ing reaper! The Sage's brother is probably the Uzumaki clan ancestor who developed the reaper death seal, and he sacrificed himself to seal the Juubi inside Hagoromo with RDS, IMO. Hagoromo later learned the sealing jutsus.
You perhaps misapprehended my post, which isn't your fault because my statement was unclear and prone to faulty comprehension. I'll just explain it in a different way.
Kaguya is an autocrat, and also the ultimate manipulator and mastermind behind the development of Madara's Project Tsuki no me IMO, but still not the final villain substantially. I am quite familiar with the nature of an autocrat (reference to Madara and Obito's case, the former being a manipulative authoritarian in nature like Kaguya).
Kaguya is the god tree IMO. She took that form perhaps as a side effect of eating the Shinju's fruit, but she is undoubtedly the god tree.
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When Madara absorbed the god tree, Kaguya basically merged with Madara, utilizing his body to obtain a physical human form for herself (as a body for her soul and a medium for her powers) while also manipulating Madara to establish her purposes and execute her powers. This is an essence of Kaguya's powers residing within Madara.
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It's not like she is willingly insistent for Madara to be her successor or replacement for "god status", its just that she has no other option. She is a f***ing tree, so she can't do anything herself. She needs someone's assistance to execute IT and unleash the power of the 9 Tomoe Sharingan. She is utilizing Madara's body as her own vessel. She is using Madara for herself. Basically, Madara is Kaguya. But Hagoromo isn't committing anything similar. He isn't manipulating anyone, and he isn't using anyone's body for his own benefit to shape the world as he wants through corrupt and oppressive means. He also isn't opportunistic like Kaguya.
Hagoromo entrusted the responsibility to protect the world to Naruto and Sasuke, and granted them a portion of his powers for that reason. Kaguya on the other hand didn't entrust Madara with anything. She is doing everything herself through Madara. She is basically utilizing Madara's body as her own physical human form. It is just a vessel for Kaguya's soul, but not temporary, a permanent one (will be like that until the god tree is released from Madara). Also, Hagoromo exhibited himself in Naruto and Sasuke's subconsciousness as a spirit, whereas Kaguya is an actual being presiding within Madara. Her role is definitely different from Hagoromo's. So I'm not neglecting the difference between Hagomoro's "pragmatism" and Kaguya's "dictatorship". My argument goes in accord with your description.
Kaguya's role of "indirect villain" is divergent from Hagoromo's role as "final hero/savior", but it is still indirect. To make things simpler, I'll abandon the word "indirect" used in association with Hagoromo, because its correspondence is dissimilar to Kaguya's case, and using the same word to signify two distinct objects in the same argument isn't a good idea, and will likely lead to misconception and fallacy.
Kaguya's autocrat nature remains intact in my argument, but she isn't the final villain no matter how you shape this situation. Kaguya isn't actually the final villain, but you could refer her as "final villain" because Madara IS Kaguya, and Madara is the final villain. Kaguya is the ultimate antagonist, but only INDIRECTLY through Madara.
Kaguya will not be the final villain
I personally believed Kaguya to be the final villain right after Hagoromo unveiled information regarding her and her powers (stating Kaguya to be stronger even than himself), partially owing to her autocrat nature. I assumed that Madara's defeat will somehow pave way for Kaguya to resume her control over the world and play her role as FV, similar to what Madara did with Obito. But I discarded my belief subsequent to Madara's manifestion of the third eye and the launch of Infinite Tsukuyomi.
Here is why I affirm that Kaguya won't make any actual or separate appearance following Madara's defeat, or even if she does, it wouldn't be a stable one to subsist as a final villain:
1. Madara is already in possession of Kaguya's powers, in addition to Hagoromo's aptitude. So he is technically stronger than Kaguya in his current state. Her succession to Madara's role of villain will veritably be a downgrade, and a final villain is never inept in comparison to the preceding one.
2. Her Sharingan was the most powerful tool she retained, which can potentially dominate everyone from Konohamaru to Hagoromo. It is also the only reason Hagoromo calls his mother stronger than him. Let's consider that eating the fruit bequeathed Kaguya every power of the Juubi, radically converting her into its replica which granted her the Juubi's body (body resembling the Juubi's jinchuuriki i.e an innate natural energy absorber endowing unlimited chakra) and the Juubi's eye (9 Tomoe Sharingan) on top of the Byakugan which she intrinsically possessed (Otsutsuki = Hyuga). If Hagoromo bore the ability to negate IT, then his powers easily foreshadowed Kaguya's, being that it would be a Byakugan vs Rinnegan contest, and the Byakugan undoubtedly pales in comparison, and the rest would be evenly matched, hence theoretically cancelled out. So she is essentially the Juubi's jinchuuriki with the Byakugan whereas Madara is the same but with the Rinnegan. Sasuke can neutralize the effect of IT which leaves Kaguya to rely on the Byakugan and her bodily powers, which is inferior to Madara's prowess. This makes Kaguya a comparatively incompetent opponent, and Naruto and Sasuke can stomp her with relative ease.
3. IT has already been casted, so there is nothing more to the plot her appearance is necessary for. She as a final villain wouldn't make any difference to the plot as it will only result in a successive propulsion of IT, which is pointless.
No, he is not the reaper... Nobody is the f***ing reaper! The Sage's brother is probably the Uzumaki clan ancestor who developed the reaper death seal, and he sacrificed himself to seal the Juubi inside Hagoromo with RDS, IMO. Hagoromo later learned the sealing jutsus.
That is if we assume that Kaguya doesn't have an ulterior motive in supporting him, Madara thinks that the Dream World is the end-all-be-all of Kaguya's plans, he couldn't be more wrong, and that will serve as the plot vehicle for his disillusionment, contrition and inevitable redemption.
"The Holy Tree" is distinctly separate in all of Madara's dialogue from "Kaguya." The way I interpret that is that Kaguya is eagerly waiting for Madara to complete something - and quite possibly speaking in his head. It's not entirely clear where or what she is.
When Madara absorbed the god tree, Kaguya basically merged with Madara, utilizing his body to obtain a physical human form for herself (as a body for her soul and a medium for her powers) while also manipulating Madara to establish her purposes and execute her powers. This is an essence of Kaguya's powers residing within Madara.
Or perhaps when you go insane enough, a third sharinnegan sprouts in your forehead. I mean, if you love someone enough and they die - a mangekyo sharingan sprouts in your normal sharingan.
Kaguya was not originally shown as having a "third eye" - that could be a product of absorbing the Juubi, as Madara has. One has to wonder where Kaguya originally gained the third eye in the middle of her forehead.
It's not like she is willingly insistent for Madara to be her successor or replacement for "god status", its just that she has no other option. She is a f***ing tree, so she can't do anything herself. She needs someone's assistance to execute IT and unleash the power of the 9 Tomoe Sharingan. She is utilizing Madara's body as her own vessel. She is using Madara for herself. Basically, Madara is Kaguya.
It isn't exactly clear what is going on in this regard. Kaguya supposedly held concern for the world and wished to end all fighting. Hagoromo insists that she simply became drunk with power - but there's got to be more to the story than that. Kaguya is portrayed as somewhat maniacal - I would even argue she resembles a fragment of a whole person.
Much as Madara seems to have separated himself into different entities - I can't help but wonder if doing so has caused his different faculties to lose sight of his true vision and is simply carrying out an idea without the capacity to review his actions.
But Hagoromo isn't committing anything similar. He isn't manipulating anyone, and he isn't using anyone's body for his own benefit to shape the world as he wants through corrupt and oppressive means. He also isn't opportunistic like Kaguya.
"The DDJ tells us that sages empty themselves, becoming void of pretense. Sages concentrate their internal energies (qi). They clean their vision (ch. 10). They manifest plainness and become like uncarved wood (pu) (ch. 19). They live naturally and free from desires given by men (ch. 37) They settle themselves and know how to be content (ch. 46). The DDJ makes use of some very famous analogies to drive home its point. Sages know the value of emptiness as illustrated by how emptiness is used in a bowl, door, window, valley or canyon (ch. 11). They preserve the female (yin), meaning that they know how to be receptive and are not unbalanced favoring assertion and action (yang) (ch. 28). They shoulder yin and embrace yang, blend internal energies (qi) and thereby attain harmony (he) (ch. 42). Those following the dao do not strive, tamper, or seek control (ch. 64). They do not endeavor to help life along (ch. 55), or use their heart-mind (xin) to “solve” or “figure out” life’s apparent knots and entanglements (ch. 55). Indeed, the DDJ cautions that those who would try to do something with the world will fail, they will actually ruin it (ch. 29). Sages do not engage in disputes and arguing, or try to prove their point (chs. 22, 81). They are pliable and supple, not rigid and resistive (chs. 76, 78). They are like water (ch. 8), finding their own place, overcoming the hard and strong by suppleness (ch. 36). Sages act with no expectation of reward (chs. 2, 51). They put themselves last and yet come first (ch. 7). They never make a display of themselves, (chs. 72, 22). They do not brag or boast, (chs. 22, 24) and they do not linger after their work is done (ch. 77). They leave no trace (ch. 27). Because they embody dao in practice, they have longevity (ch. 16). They create peace (ch. 32). Creatures do not harm them (chs. 50, 55). Soldiers do not kill them (ch. 50). Heaven (tian) protects the sage and the sage becomes invincible (ch. 67)."
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I put in bold those things the Sage of Six Paths should re-read.
But we also have many Buddhist concepts in Naruto:
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" The question arises at this stage then, what precisely is meant by 'the end of suffering' in the Buddha's terms? What it obviously means can clearly be seen in the daily living of the sage: the sage lives his life, doing his daily tasks, and takes his responsibilities seriously and nothing changes in his regular daily work in order to earn a living, and he also enjoys the usual pleasures and suffers the usual pains from moment to moment like anyone else. Yet it can be clearly seen that his face is usually without anxiety, his body usually relaxed, and he has an acute sense of humour that is very pleasing and appealing to others. (I know such a person…) People seem to seek his company because of his presence, or to listen to his melodious voice, or seek his advice in difficult situations; they see him offering his advice, only when it is sought, and the sage does that with an astonishing sense of humility combined with compassion, and affection. Seekers see the sage as someone transparently open, without any cleverness at all and, yet, the seeker knows that the sage is obviously no one's fool! This is perhaps what is meant by the words: <The sage is anchored in peace and harmony>. But what the seeker actually sees is that while the sage is not particularly keen to offer any advice, he does so when asked, with a great deal of simplicity, confidence, and utter humility.
One is so impressed by the personality of the sage, by his total simplicity and naturalness that one finds himself to want to be in his company more frequently than one would imagine, even when there is no particular situation to be discussed with him, he simply enjoys his company. On such an encounter, one might have the time to sit with him and ask the sage what made him what he is - so likeable. The sage would perhaps smile and say, again with utterly simple humility, "nothing”, but it is GOD’S ‘GRACE’ and you would know that he really genuinely meant it. If you were to gently pursue the matter, the response you would get is quite likely to be that the sage has a deep conviction in GOD’S WILL BEING PRESENT ALL THE TIME, AT ALL PLACES and that is the reason for his total simplicity and trust. Indeed, he goes on explaining to you that he has accepted with total conviction that, whatever one may think one is doing, whatever is actually happening, could not be happening unless it was God's Will, according to a Cosmic Law. At this point, you find yourself asking whether the sage truly believes that all action is not anyone's doing… that what he does and says are not his actions but a happening that simply had to happen? The sage may seem to hesitate a little, but the answer will come with great confidence, "without any exception!” Whatever I do and say is a happening and I am not as an ego the doer of anything… You are, frankly, not quite ready to accept this unequivocal assertion. So you persist: and say to the sage: “Doesn’t that mean withdrawing your responsibility for your actions?
The sage would probably look at you a little piercingly but when he finds total sincerity in your questioning, he would open up completely. He is likely to explain to you:
-- "There is really no question of any responsibility because I do believe totally, without any reservation, that nothing can happen unless it is God's Will, I certainly don’t mean that in a fatalistic manner. What it means is simply that if there is something for me to do in my daily living, I shall, of course, make a decision on what to do and how to do it. Having made the decision, I shall put in my best effort to make that decision fructify. However, having done that, I know with total certainty that whatever happens, thereafter, will be put OFF MY CONTROL and will depend entirely on the Will of God. I shall be waiting comfortably without any stress and strain for the result of 'my action'. The result could be successful or not successful and, therefore, the consequences of that result would again depend entirely upon God's Will. This is what I call A HAPPENING … a result of my efforts IS in GOD’S HANDS and is HIS WILL that prevails… I am at rest …my mind is tranquil and I TRUST completely in the outcome of my actions as the consequences - good, bad or indifferent – as being God's Will and my DESTINY. There's truly no problem, no avoiding responsibility." I am in peace with myself because I tried my best and the outcome is not in my hands… as I have explained."
This is why the Sage has so many connections to "Gedo" - Ge; "Off" Do; "Path/Way" (Nin-Do, Bu-Shi-Do, Tai-Quan-Do, Qi-Do - It's like the noises mean something... as if it's some kind of language with structure and shit...)
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Thus, GeDo MaZo is literally "Off-Way Demon-Sculpture" Interpreted as: "The Statue of Demonic Misguidance." Honestly, you have to wonder why something with such an obvious name would be used by anyone... but I guess it does take a special kind of arrogance (stupidity) to assume you are not being misled when utilizing the statue of misguiding demons.
Hagoromo entrusted the responsibility to protect the world to Naruto and Sasuke, and granted them a portion of his powers for that reason. Kaguya on the other hand didn't entrust Madara with anything. She is doing everything herself through Madara. She is basically utilizing Madara's body as her own physical human form. It is just a vessel for Kaguya's soul, but not temporary, a permanent one (will be like that until the god tree is released from Madara). Also, Hagoromo exhibited himself in Naruto and Sasuke's subconsciousness as a spirit, whereas Kaguya is an actual being presiding within Madara. Her role is definitely different from Hagoromo's. So I'm not neglecting the difference between Hagomoro's "pragmatism" and Kaguya's "dictatorship". My argument goes in accord with your description.
The man has the ability to project himself into the future; and was supposedly quite wise. Why, then, would he A) dispense chakra to a world 'in the hopes' that they would use it to 'understand each other?' - The promise of Death-By-Goddess didn't exactly keep them from squabbling - giving them all the ability to become little demi-gods seems like a pretty dim-witted idea, don't you think? B) Write all the secrets of stuff down on a tablet that only the authoritarian-loving descendants of the elder son could read? "Hey, the more power you guys obtain, the more this tablet shows you about how to get more power. Use it responsibly, and don't try to subject everyone to an infinite dream world."
Why, why, WHY would the Sage leave behind a series of clues unless he -wanted- someone like Madara to come along and do exactly what he is doing? Why would the Sage project himself into the future unless he expected for things to "go wrong?"
Kaguya's role of "indirect villain" is divergent from Hagoromo's role as "final hero/savior", but it is still indirect. To make things simpler, I'll abandon the word "indirect" used in association with Hagoromo, because its correspondence is dissimilar to Kaguya's case, and using the same word to signify two distinct objects in the same argument isn't a good idea, and will likely lead to misconception and fallacy.
Honestly, I think there is no real villain in Naruto. I know I sound kind of crazy, there - but someone like Madara is actually somewhat of a victim. He's become so obsessed with doing that he's going to destroy the very thing he hopes to save. The same with the Sage. The same with Kaguya.
The villain in Naruto is one's self more so than it is others. It is the desire to control and to suppress the undesirable experiences in life.
Basically, Naruto is a very protracted and artistic adaptation of "A Journey to The West" - with a few other influences thrown in for flavor. It would not surprise me in the slightest for this all to be revealed as a battle inside the mind, the "thousand I's" - as is often referred to in Taoist and some Buddhist literature.
No, he is not the reaper... Nobody is the f***ing reaper! The Sage's brother is probably the Uzumaki clan ancestor who developed the reaper death seal, and he sacrificed himself to seal the Juubi inside Hagoromo with RDS, IMO. Hagoromo later learned the sealing jutsus.
The Uzumaki predate the Sage, just as the Hyuuga's lineage predates the Sage. The Uzumaki were the original tenants of the God Tree, developing shamanistic rituals and emblems that drew upon natural energies (chakra) to tend the tree. This would be the origins of sealing jutsu.
The Reaper Death Seal is evoked using the Eight Trigrams Seal - which was most likely developed through Hyuuga (Ototsuki) influences. This is, quite possibly, also how the Hyuuga came to use the Cursed Seal, Which is a Monogram Yin broken by the symbol for the Sun.
The literal translation for the "RDS" is actually the "Dead Demon Consuming Seal" - which, I would argue, is a play off of Kaguya being known as the Demon. Sort of meant as a humiliating end - to have the one who used chakra to end fighting being forced to consume the souls of those who continue to fight after overthrowing her rule.
Hagoromo's legendary tools were likely constructs created by the Uzumaki. Their use of ceremonial masks to harness chakra would seem to fit right along with other forms of exotic weapons.
That is if we assume that Kaguya doesn't have an ulterior motive in supporting him, Madara thinks that the Dream World is the end-all-be-all of Kaguya's plans, he couldn't be more wrong, and that will serve as the plot vehicle for his disillusionment, contrition and inevitable redemption.
Then??? Will Kaguya take over? What's gonna happen next, according to you? You suggest that he will redeem himself. why do you think that is axiomatic?
I'm not going to say anything further concerning this issue, or atleast for now... But I will ask you a couple of things.
1. Does Kaguya have an ulterior motive? If yes, then what can that possibly be, in your opinion?
2. Do you think Kaguya's entry into the plot as FV is logical? Considering that Madara is stronger than her, and IT has already been launched?
3. How will the plot advance if thats how it goes? Something different? I want to know ALL your opinions regarding this...
I'm not ruling out the possibility of Kaguya's return, but as FV, I doubt it. Also, Kaguya seems adamant about all the chakra becoming one through IT which could lead to her ultimate restoration, maybe... What do you think?
"The Holy Tree" is distinctly separate in all of Madara's dialogue from "Kaguya." The way I interpret that is that Kaguya is eagerly waiting for Madara to complete something - and quite possibly speaking in his head. It's not entirely clear where or what she is.
How is it separate? His dialogue with Kaguya was only evident after Madara absorbed the god tree... What do you think Kaguya's conscience within Madara depicts immediately after the absorption of the god tree? Kaguya could be eagerly waiting for something, but right now she is within Madara, either manipulating him or taking advantage of his determination for his ambition to be prospered.
Or perhaps when you go insane enough, a third sharinnegan sprouts in your forehead. I mean, if you love someone enough and they die - a mangekyo sharingan sprouts in your normal sharingan.
This is quite the mistake to believe the third eye to be a product of any kind of emotions associated with the wielder. In fact, the natural evolution of the Sharingan halts at MS.
@bold Sharingan, not Sharinnegan... The third eye is the ultimate form of the Sharingan, it apparently has nothing to do with Rinnegan...
Kaguya was not originally shown as having a "third eye" - that could be a product of absorbing the Juubi, as Madara has. One has to wonder where Kaguya originally gained the third eye in the middle of her forehead.
She has the third eye, it just isn't manifested... Her eye is closed!
It isn't exactly clear what is going on in this regard. Kaguya supposedly held concern for the world and wished to end all fighting. Hagoromo insists that she simply became drunk with power - but there's got to be more to the story than that. Kaguya is portrayed as somewhat maniacal - I would even argue she resembles a fragment of a whole person.
Much as Madara seems to have separated himself into different entities - I can't help but wonder if doing so has caused his different faculties to lose sight of his true vision and is simply carrying out an idea without the capacity to review his actions.
Alright, now I'm not resolute on who is the villain and who is not. If we take into account what Hagoromo said, he also expressed deep concern for what was going on in the shinobi world. And Kaguya was basically portrayed as an autocrat, someone who wishes to control everything and seeked people worshipping her. If that is considered to be the reality, then you can't really expect any protagonist role from Kaguya, as you seem to be indicating.
@bold I agree. There is a lot more which is yet to be revealed. Without more info, it isn't easy to establish anything because whatever is exposed could be deceptive, in connection with both Kaguya and Hagoromo...
"The DDJ tells us that sages empty themselves, becoming void of pretense. Sages concentrate their internal energies (qi). They clean their vision (ch. 10). They manifest plainness and become like uncarved wood (pu) (ch. 19). They live naturally and free from desires given by men (ch. 37) They settle themselves and know how to be content (ch. 46). The DDJ makes use of some very famous analogies to drive home its point. Sages know the value of emptiness as illustrated by how emptiness is used in a bowl, door, window, valley or canyon (ch. 11). They preserve the female (yin), meaning that they know how to be receptive and are not unbalanced favoring assertion and action (yang) (ch. 28). They shoulder yin and embrace yang, blend internal energies (qi) and thereby attain harmony (he) (ch. 42). Those following the dao do not strive, tamper, or seek control (ch. 64). They do not endeavor to help life along (ch. 55), or use their heart-mind (xin) to “solve” or “figure out” life’s apparent knots and entanglements (ch. 55). Indeed, the DDJ cautions that those who would try to do something with the world will fail, they will actually ruin it (ch. 29). Sages do not engage in disputes and arguing, or try to prove their point (chs. 22, 81). They are pliable and supple, not rigid and resistive (chs. 76, 78). They are like water (ch. 8), finding their own place, overcoming the hard and strong by suppleness (ch. 36). Sages act with no expectation of reward (chs. 2, 51). They put themselves last and yet come first (ch. 7). They never make a display of themselves, (chs. 72, 22). They do not brag or boast, (chs. 22, 24) and they do not linger after their work is done (ch. 77). They leave no trace (ch. 27). Because they embody dao in practice, they have longevity (ch. 16). They create peace (ch. 32). Creatures do not harm them (chs. 50, 55). Soldiers do not kill them (ch. 50). Heaven (tian) protects the sage and the sage becomes invincible (ch. 67)."
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I put in bold those things the Sage of Six Paths should re-read.
But we also have many Buddhist concepts in Naruto:
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" The question arises at this stage then, what precisely is meant by 'the end of suffering' in the Buddha's terms? What it obviously means can clearly be seen in the daily living of the sage: the sage lives his life, doing his daily tasks, and takes his responsibilities seriously and nothing changes in his regular daily work in order to earn a living, and he also enjoys the usual pleasures and suffers the usual pains from moment to moment like anyone else. Yet it can be clearly seen that his face is usually without anxiety, his body usually relaxed, and he has an acute sense of humour that is very pleasing and appealing to others. (I know such a person…) People seem to seek his company because of his presence, or to listen to his melodious voice, or seek his advice in difficult situations; they see him offering his advice, only when it is sought, and the sage does that with an astonishing sense of humility combined with compassion, and affection. Seekers see the sage as someone transparently open, without any cleverness at all and, yet, the seeker knows that the sage is obviously no one's fool! This is perhaps what is meant by the words: <The sage is anchored in peace and harmony>. But what the seeker actually sees is that while the sage is not particularly keen to offer any advice, he does so when asked, with a great deal of simplicity, confidence, and utter humility.
One is so impressed by the personality of the sage, by his total simplicity and naturalness that one finds himself to want to be in his company more frequently than one would imagine, even when there is no particular situation to be discussed with him, he simply enjoys his company. On such an encounter, one might have the time to sit with him and ask the sage what made him what he is - so likeable. The sage would perhaps smile and say, again with utterly simple humility, "nothing”, but it is GOD’S ‘GRACE’ and you would know that he really genuinely meant it. If you were to gently pursue the matter, the response you would get is quite likely to be that the sage has a deep conviction in GOD’S WILL BEING PRESENT ALL THE TIME, AT ALL PLACES and that is the reason for his total simplicity and trust. Indeed, he goes on explaining to you that he has accepted with total conviction that, whatever one may think one is doing, whatever is actually happening, could not be happening unless it was God's Will, according to a Cosmic Law. At this point, you find yourself asking whether the sage truly believes that all action is not anyone's doing… that what he does and says are not his actions but a happening that simply had to happen? The sage may seem to hesitate a little, but the answer will come with great confidence, "without any exception!” Whatever I do and say is a happening and I am not as an ego the doer of anything… You are, frankly, not quite ready to accept this unequivocal assertion. So you persist: and say to the sage: “Doesn’t that mean withdrawing your responsibility for your actions?
The sage would probably look at you a little piercingly but when he finds total sincerity in your questioning, he would open up completely. He is likely to explain to you:
-- "There is really no question of any responsibility because I do believe totally, without any reservation, that nothing can happen unless it is God's Will, I certainly don’t mean that in a fatalistic manner. What it means is simply that if there is something for me to do in my daily living, I shall, of course, make a decision on what to do and how to do it. Having made the decision, I shall put in my best effort to make that decision fructify. However, having done that, I know with total certainty that whatever happens, thereafter, will be put OFF MY CONTROL and will depend entirely on the Will of God. I shall be waiting comfortably without any stress and strain for the result of 'my action'. The result could be successful or not successful and, therefore, the consequences of that result would again depend entirely upon God's Will. This is what I call A HAPPENING … a result of my efforts IS in GOD’S HANDS and is HIS WILL that prevails… I am at rest …my mind is tranquil and I TRUST completely in the outcome of my actions as the consequences - good, bad or indifferent – as being God's Will and my DESTINY. There's truly no problem, no avoiding responsibility." I am in peace with myself because I tried my best and the outcome is not in my hands… as I have explained."
This is why the Sage has so many connections to "Gedo" - Ge; "Off" Do; "Path/Way" (Nin-Do, Bu-Shi-Do, Tai-Quan-Do, Qi-Do - It's like the noises mean something... as if it's some kind of language with structure and shit...)
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Thus, GeDo MaZo is literally "Off-Way Demon-Sculpture" Interpreted as: "The Statue of Demonic Misguidance." Honestly, you have to wonder why something with such an obvious name would be used by anyone... but I guess it does take a special kind of arrogance (stupidity) to assume you are not being misled when utilizing the statue of misguiding demons.
That could be possible... From the evidences you provided, it seems plausible for Hagoromo to be some kind of evil manipulative person, but it could be seriously objected as well, so the issue is debatable. Final villain? Maybe... Kaguya as final villain? IDK. But it seems like Madara has attained every kind of power, so anyone else would be a downgrade. I'm not stubborn on any of my opinions. I'm not going to say Kaguya is the final villain, neither am I going to affirm the same remark about Hagoromo. It is still too early to constitute any firm belief, don't you think? The only thing I was trying to point out is that those who label Kaguya to be the final villain shouldn't believe that Kaguya is going to make an actual return, so calling her a final villian in that sense isn't right. I was only expressing ideas in opposition, I'm not resolute on anything. And I'm also using proofs that are evident right now...
For a sage, Hagoromo does a lot of meddling.
The man has the ability to project himself into the future; and was supposedly quite wise. Why, then, would he A) dispense chakra to a world 'in the hopes' that they would use it to 'understand each other?' - The promise of Death-By-Goddess didn't exactly keep them from squabbling - giving them all the ability to become little demi-gods seems like a pretty dim-witted idea, don't you think? B) Write all the secrets of stuff down on a tablet that only the authoritarian-loving descendants of the elder son could read? "Hey, the more power you guys obtain, the more this tablet shows you about how to get more power. Use it responsibly, and don't try to subject everyone to an infinite dream world."
I'm not going to deny any of the points you listed, but I'm going to enlist things in his favor for people to realize both scenarios.
A) His descendants already had powerful chakra which they could manipulate for any kind of purposes, be it virtuous or gruesome. So for Hagoromo, it might seem necessary to provide the world with chakra to balance power between everyone. Because if his descendants, who already possessed chakra has fearsome plans, it could result in endless tyranny and slavery for the rest if they didn't have the power to defend themselves and negate their rule. He did believe in balance of power between everyone. "If power is accumulated into one person, that power before long drives that person mad". And that statement is true in reality. Can't it be interpreted as "If power is accumulated into only clan, that power before long drives that clan (group of people) mad, and hungry for control" which could be the reason he TRIED to balance things out.
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B) Can't really say anything on that. The Sage only wrote about the history and background about his mother, himself and the Juubi, so that isn't really dangerous to the world in any sense... On the other hand he provided his younger son with authority based on his ideology. So with all this, Hagoromo's protagonist role or antagonism isn't really evident.
Why, why, WHY would the Sage leave behind a series of clues unless he -wanted- someone like Madara to come along and do exactly what he is doing?
The Sage mentioned that the descendants of his elder son edited (added) the information on the tablet because they anticipated Madara'a arrival, someone who would awaken the Rinnegan. It wasn't really his contemplation what Madara is doing and has come along to (you can't exactly say it to be like that). What he has passed down to his descendants is apparently being misused... or he could have intended for something like that.
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Again, I'm not defying your opinions, I'm just listing all the possibilities. It isn't necessary that the Sage contemplated for someone to achieve unbeatable powers, it could be probable that he left the tablet for some decent purposes, which was misused by the descendants of the elder son to create all this mess. You as well can't be perfectly resolute about Hagoromo's character, can you?
Why would the Sage project himself into the future unless he expected for things to "go wrong?"
Kaguya already awakened a problem by eating the Shinju's fruit and endowing her descendants with chakra. This could result in enormous problems, being that his descendants could be overpowered by their lust for power and try to establish control over everything, much like the elder son did. This could be what Hagoromo feared and distributed his powers to humanity to balance the powers so that something like what Kaguya did could not repeat itself. He believed that someone with tremendous powers could go insane with he/she possessed and this could end up in disequilibrium in the system. Why Hagoromo did that? Because the humanity system was already deviated with what Kaguya had done, it might be necessary to provide others with chakra to maintain balance, because the existent chakra couldn't be extracted (if that is what you suggest for creating balance).
Honestly, I think there is no real villain in Naruto. I know I sound kind of crazy, there - but someone like Madara is actually somewhat of a victim. He's become so obsessed with doing that he's going to destroy the very thing he hopes to save. The same with the Sage. The same with Kaguya.
The villain in Naruto is one's self more so than it is others. It is the desire to control and to suppress the undesirable experiences in life.
Basically, Naruto is a very protracted and artistic adaptation of "A Journey to The West" - with a few other influences thrown in for flavor. It would not surprise me in the slightest for this all to be revealed as a battle inside the mind, the "thousand I's" - as is often referred to in Taoist and some Buddhist literature.
Yeah, your vision on "villain in Naruto" is right. Everybody seeks the best of the shinobi world, but the difference in their believes and their way of establishing peace categorize them into "protagonist" and "antagonist".
The Uzumaki predate the Sage, just as the Hyuuga's lineage predates the Sage. The Uzumaki were the original tenants of the God Tree, developing shamanistic rituals and emblems that drew upon natural energies (chakra) to tend the tree. This would be the origins of sealing jutsu.
The Hyuga is the originally the Otsutsuki clan. But Uzumakis predate the Sage? Are you sure? The amount of chakra they possess couldn't possibly be due to the distribution made by the Sage, it is most likely due to naturally inheriting it... from Hagoromo's brother. If the Uzumaki clan predate the Sage, then how are you going to establish its relevance to Hagoromo himself because his clan is the Hyuga, so the Uzumakis become even more irrelevant to Hagoromo and his descendants.
The Reaper Death Seal is evoked using the Eight Trigrams Seal - which was most likely developed through Hyuuga (Ototsuki) influences. This is, quite possibly, also how the Hyuuga came to use the Cursed Seal, Which is a Monogram Yin broken by the symbol for the Sun.
The literal translation for the "RDS" is actually the "Dead Demon Consuming Seal" - which, I would argue, is a play off of Kaguya being known as the Demon. Sort of meant as a humiliating end - to have the one who used chakra to end fighting being forced to consume the souls of those who continue to fight after overthrowing her rule.
Hagoromo's legendary tools were likely constructs created by the Uzumaki. Their use of ceremonial masks to harness chakra would seem to fit right along with other forms of exotic weapons.
So Maddy absorbed the tree and now that I.T is active and only team 7 and edos aren't ****ed right now, Kaguya will influence Maddy's mind and start to take over his body and finally kaguya will take world to brink of destruction and Maddy will fight for contorl of his mind get it back and defeat kaguya with the allied shinobi force. of course its back to being dead for him and the edos after the war tho
