[VS] Jounin Joust: Kabuto vs Minato

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Minato when he fought AB Combo
Kabuto when he fought Kakashi

Each is given a mission to kill the other.
They have 1 day to prepare
They'll meet in a random forest
 

salamander uchiha

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Kabuto wins, not because of speed or the fact he can react to FTG, rather because he's devious and would likely concoct poison or something. Minato has no counter to that, except going to Konoha and hoping somebody treats him.
Edit: Also, Kabuto can feint via deadbody jutsu he has.
 
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Silenqe

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Minato when he fought AB Combo
Kabuto when he fought Kakashi

Each is given a mission to kill the other.
They have 1 day to prepare
They'll meet in a random forest
I would say Minato wins this one. Kabuto can't do anything about Minato's speed, intelligence and durability. And Minato has a lot of powerful Jutsus which again, Kabuto can't do anything against.
 

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I would say Minato wins this one. Kabuto can't do anything about Minato's speed, intelligence and durability. And Minato has a lot of powerful Jutsus which again, Kabuto can't do anything against.
Minato needed FTG to dodge what was practically V1 Raikage.

Scale that to Kakashi - whom Kabuto repeatedly outpaced in close interactions - who performed a similar reaction with Kamui against a chakra arrow from Sasuke.

So unless you consider V1 Raikage as faster than a chakra arrow, I don't see how Minato has any speed that Kabuto can't mentally react to
 

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Minato needed FTG to dodge what was practically V1 Raikage.

Scale that to Kakashi - whom Kabuto repeatedly outpaced in close interactions - who performed a similar reaction with Kamui against a chakra arrow from Sasuke.

So unless you consider V1 Raikage as faster than a chakra arrow, I don't see how Minato has any speed that Kabuto can't mentally react to
Just because Kakashi could use Kamui against Sasuke's Susanoo Arrow doesn't really help Kabuto in this situation in any shape or form. That just proves that Kakashi has a pretty good reaction time, it has nothing to do with Kakashi's actual speed. I can't find any panels where Kabuto outpaces Kakashi at all. In the fight with Kabuto and Kakashi, Kakashi takes down Kabuto in under a few seconds.

The Raikage was stated to be the fastest Shinobi at that time even in his V1 until, of course, Minato come and used Flying Thunder God. A feat of the Raikage is when he dodged Amaterasu, which we have seen is not the easiest thing to dodge, for example, when Naruto, Killer Bee, and edo Itachi was fighting edo Nagato, where edo Itachi used Amaterasu and it looked as edo Nagato just got caught on fire in an instant, but in reality, the flame shot towards edo Nagato. It normally can't be seen with the naked eye and the fact that edo Nagato had the Rinnegan and the Rinnegan improves a person's reaction time and speed by a lot means that alone just explains how fast Amaterasu Actually is. The Raikage is also the only one who has actually dodged it. So the fact that Minato could dodge the Raikage and also have time to react to him as well is pretty huge.
 
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Infant

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Just because Kakashi could use Kamui against Sasuke's Susanoo Arrow doesn't really help Kabuto in this situation in any shape or form. That just proves that Kakashi has a pretty good reaction time, it has nothing to do with Kakashi's actual speed. I can't find any panels where Kabuto outpaces Kakashi at all. In the fight with Kabuto and Kakashi, Kakashi takes down Kabuto in under a few seconds.

The Raikage was stated to be the fastest Shinobi at that time even in his V1 until, of course, Minato come and used Flying Thunder God. A feat of the Raikage is when he dodged Amaterasu, which we have seen is not the easiest thing to dodge, for example, when Naruto, Killer Bee, and edo Itachi was fighting edo Nagato, where edo Itachi used Amaterasu and it looked as edo Nagato just got caught on fire in an instant, but in reality, the flame shot towards edo Nagato. It normally can't be seen with the naked eye and the fact that edo Nagato had the Rinnegan and the Rinnegan improves a person's reaction time and speed by a lot means that alone just explains how fast Amaterasu Actually is. The Raikage is also the only one who has actually dodged it. So the fact that Minato could dodge the Raikage and also have time to react to him as well is pretty huge.
Apples and oranges.

I liked your post because with standard deviation leeway given, your analysis is logical, but strictly speaking it misses the mark.

Firstly, my post talks about mental reaction, but you judged physical movement in your reply.

Secondly, Kakashi and Kabuto scale to each other based on statements from Orochimaru and Jiraiya as well as relatively equal positions of General in the War (Kakashi and Shizune, who was previously beaten by Kabuto in all respects), so unless you give reason for exception, any stats allowed to one character flow to the other character (this is usually not true, but it has to be proven). Also, Kabuto beat Kakashi and inspired a concession of ability during the Journeyman Exams when Kabuto fodderised a few Anbu and then escaped Kakashi directly. (Chapters 88-89)

Thirdly, you noted feats from V2 Raikage when I clearly referenced V1. I consider younger Raikage to be around V1 level because since then, he's been training, improving chakra control and quantity etc. All that should make his RnY from his elder days far stronger than his full output from his younger days.

So your points missed the mark, not because they weren't true but because they were aimed at the wrong target altogether
 
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Kabuto couldn't even beat kakashi what makes you think he can beat minato. Kabuto is a progidy but there are levels to this. Nejis a good prodigy but is no where near kakashis level and itachi and minato are a step above kakashi.
 

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Kabuto couldn't even beat kakashi what makes you think he can beat minato. Kabuto is a progidy but there are levels to this. Nejis a good prodigy but is no where near kakashis level and itachi and minato are a step above kakashi.
Read chapter 88-89.

Kabuto totally beat Kakashi both with movement and tactics. Keep in mind he was holding back because he didn't wanna cause a big noise, like when Kisame couldn't use big moves with Itachi.
 

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Apples and oranges.

I liked your post because with standard deviation leeway given, your analysis is logical, but strictly speaking it misses the mark.

Firstly, my post talks about mental reaction, but you judged physical movement in your reply.

Secondly, Kakashi and Kabuto scale to each other based on statements from Orochimaru and Jiraiya as well as relatively equal positions of General in the War (Kakashi and Shizune, who was previously beaten by Kabuto in all respects), so unless you give reason for exception, any stats allowed to one character flow to the other character (this is usually not true, but it has to be proven). Also, Kabuto beat Kakashi and inspired a concession of ability during the Journeyman Exams when Kabuto fodderised a few Anbu and then escaped Kakashi directly. (Chapters 88-89)

Thirdly, you noted feats from V2 Raikage when I clearly referenced V1. I consider younger Raikage to be around V1 level because since then, he's been training, improving chakra control and quantity etc. All that should make his RnY from his elder days far stronger than his full output from his younger days.

So your points missed the mark, not because they weren't true but because they were aimed at the wrong target altogether
Your posts never stated anything with mental reactions at all, the whole thread is about both having one day to prepare for a battle and then we were gonna argue on who wins after the one day of preparation in a one vs one battle to the death fight. Your first reply to my post was where you stated that Kabuto could blitz Kakashi and Kakashi could *dodge* a Susanoo Arrow, which then you said that Kabuto should be faster than the Susanoo Arrow, which is not true at all. Kakashi used Kamui on the Susanoo Arrow to teleport it into the Kamui dimension. Kakashi could react to it because of the Sharingan giving him more reaction time. In the *fight* with Kabuto, he didn't have his Sharingan out, which means it was deactivated and that Kakashi wasn't near the same amount of reaction speed and movement speed and even so Kakashi still won.

The chapter you showed me, which I also looked at in my first reply. Kabuto gets taken down by Kakashi in a matter of seconds and then runs away. He isn't even close to beating Kakashi at all.

The Raikage was still the fastest shinobi at that time and Minato still dodged him. So that feat should give Minato a huge advantage. Minato also has the highest grades we have ever seen in the Naruto series, so Minato is not someone you just mess around with.

I don't get how I hit the wrong mark at all. We are supposed to argue on who wins in a battle, not who wins in having a mental breakdown. Even if we look at who has the best mental reactions, then Minato wins anyway.
 

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Your posts never stated anything with mental reactions at all, the whole thread is about both having one day to prepare for a battle and then we were gonna argue on who wins after the one day of preparation in a one vs one battle to the death fight. Your first reply to my post was where you stated that Kabuto could blitz Kakashi and Kakashi could *dodge* a Susanoo Arrow, which then you said that Kabuto should be faster than the Susanoo Arrow, which is not true at all. Kakashi used Kamui on the Susanoo Arrow to teleport it into the Kamui dimension. Kakashi could react to it because of the Sharingan giving him more reaction time. In the *fight* with Kabuto, he didn't have his Sharingan out, which means it was deactivated and that Kakashi wasn't near the same amount of reaction speed and movement speed and even so Kakashi still won.

The chapter you showed me, which I also looked at in my first reply. Kabuto gets taken down by Kakashi in a matter of seconds and then runs away. He isn't even close to beating Kakashi at all.

The Raikage was still the fastest shinobi at that time and Minato still dodged him. So that feat should give Minato a huge advantage. Minato also has the highest grades we have ever seen in the Naruto series, so Minato is not someone you just mess around with.

I don't get how I hit the wrong mark at all. We are supposed to argue on who wins in a battle, not who wins in having a mental breakdown. Even if we look at who has the best mental reactions, then Minato wins anyway.

So unless you consider V1 Raikage as faster than a chakra arrow, I don't see how Minato has any speed that Kabuto can't mentally react to
Literally the summary and 30% of my entire post!

The bold proves we're clearly not in the same page.

So imma nuke that debate and start afresh (next post) altogether. I know the urge to try to sum thngs up quickly, but that really kills debate where the key is in the details. So please read carefully.
Post automatically merged:

I see quite a few fellas and fellasses seem to think there is some major difference between Kabuto and Minato, so imma cut short the quid pro quo of endless exchanges by nipping the issue at its bud. Bud which would be, as far as i can tell, a mixing up of feats and powers. Mostly in terms of what the Hokage can do due to their showings in the 4th war.

So where to begin?

I'll start with the major power boost cause: 4th war performance. See, the Reaper Seal was described as a seal that makes the caster and victim fight each other continuously, no rest. This makes it's the ultimate training dungeon. So the Minato we saw there was a Minato who had been training restlessly with three other Hokage (for at least 2 years) and with Kurama for 15 years . . This means that even Hokage Minato is 15 years of ultra training weaker.
Then add on that Minato also had Kurama givng him his chakra mode. Now that took Naruto from being Kakashi level to using single clones to beat legendary kage (kinda). That is clearly a major boost that even Hokage Minato would have to be scaled down from. So these are two major boosts that even Hokage Minato doesn't have. Knowing, even roughly, how much they boost someone allows for a simple conclusion that the real Minato, while alive, would be weaker to a certain degree. That degree, I say, is easily large enough to put even Hokage Minato in the bracket of characters like Kakashi and Kabuto.

With that settled, I can now focus on Jonin Minato and how he scales in combat. In this case, remember that this version should be even weaker than Hokage Minato. Reason being that Kakashi told Naruto that Minato was always growing and hadn't reached his prime, during the Rasenshuriken training. So that means that any two versions of Minato are decently different in ability. This also fits what Raikage said about Minato being unsurpassable in that you can't surpass someone who is always growing stronger. Compare that with the explanation that Minato was chosen as Hokage because Orochimaru was wicked, which means he was also stronger than Minato. So if Minato was weaker than Orochimaru but was still called unsurpassable, then clearly it references his growth potential as opposed to his current power. Now.with characters like Raikage and Orochimaru growing so much in their own right compared to when Minato was.alive, then one can scale.from their growth of ability to guesstimate how much Minato would've grown between his Jonin and Hokage days. Since Minato was clearly shown as the guy who's growth ability beats all others, then he'd develop even more in any time period than others. Combining that with the number of years between the clash with Raikage and Bee and the fight against Obito, I'd say his strength grew by the difference between a standard Jonin and Chunin relative to his own strength. So one can't even apply the skill and quality of Hokage Minato in considering thngs here.
Now I can look directly at what Jonin Minato proved capable of. In his fight, he could observe Raikage so clearly that he waited until the last possible second before using FTG to escape. Now that Raikage should scale to less than V1 of 4th war Raikage because he himself had been doing crazy training for 15 years. That and Killer B outperformed him with his interception. That was a very young and much weaker Killer B to the 4th war version. Now since Killer B in base could not match Raikage in V1 (Lariat, both needed V1 to sync), it means that the Raikage from the Minato fight is less than his V1 version from the 4th war era. Adding in that the younger Killer B, being weaker, outright outperformed Raikage against Minato makes it likely that Raikage from Minato fight is more equivalent to his unboosted/base 4th war version. So Minato is able to comfortably follow the movement of base Raikage from 4th war. I figure that he could also manage, given the ease of his feat, to decently follow V1 Raikage. That is somewhat supported by the fact that Sasuke, being arguably as talented as Minato but trained by an Orochimaru constantly put above Jiraiya for knowledge and skill, also struggled to follow V1 Raikage, needing to outright hax his way through with Sharingan Precognition. Again, I figure Sasuke is comparable due to natural talent and teachers being similar, with Orochimaru being better than Jiraiya and Sasuke being an alien spawn making up for Minato being older. Minato having a better reaction to a tail switch from Killer Bee is balanced out by the Killer B that Sasuke fought being much stronger. So that leaves Minato having mental speed good enough for V1 Raikage. As for his action, we see that he can do a 1m arm swing before Jonin Raikage can react, although Killer B could easily.outpace him with a tail. Now we cannot be sure if Minato could outspeed Raikage because Raikage could easily have been dazed or wondering where on earth Minato had gone. Basically, it'd be a situation like interceptions where slower characters beat faster characters because the faster guy was surprised/shocked/uncaring. Still, the fact that Minato chose FTG instead of normal dodging tells clearly that his normal body movements are well below Jonin Raikage, who scales below V1 Raikage from 4th war.

All in all, we have Jonin Minato being able to react, with FTG to speeds of V1 Raikage and being able to move normally at speeds at least comfortably below V1 Raikage.

That said, how does Kabuto scale?
First his own reactions. In chapters 88-89, Kabuto is clearly scaled to Kakashi. Now that applies even to Kakashi from the 4th war because his developments were in regard to his eyes and stamina, not physical movements. This is proved by how he still struggled with Zabuza just like before (Zabuza being the guy who nullifies the Sharingan). Now that Kakashi was able to cleanlt track and launch chakra to counter a chakra arrow from MS Sasuke. MS Sasuke himself had eye powers that caught V2 Raikage and could follow V1 Raikage. Now Kakashi later concedes that his body could not dodge, but that still means his eyes can track an arrow that should be closer to V2 Raikage than V1 Raikage. Now since Kabuto beat Kakashi with his trickery and quick execution of maneuvres, we can. say that his eye movements are just as good as Kakashi, who himself cleanly beats Jonin Minato.
As for his own actions, Kabuto did well to prepare his Dead Soul Technique fast enough to leave no traces for Kakashi to notice. Now the key here lies in that Kabuto would not need the technique if he thought it was slower than however long it would take to complete his mission. That mission was to literally take a body of a child and escape through the window. For him, that should take less than 30 seconds. So that means the task of placing some spell, then surgically replacing three faces and then calming his own heartbeat to standstill was done in less than 30 seconds. He also repeated this when he faked the death of Sai. He created a perfect corpse so quickly that a trio including Naruto and Yamato could not make up the distance on Kabuto and co. Now keep in mind the original distance was less than 1km (from Naruto vs Orochimaru), so Kabuto has to have been practically instantaneous in doing this trick. Back to Kakashi. Kabuto then escaped Kakashi, who was on full alert, by moving from almost behind him (Kakashi was closer to the window) to throw shuriken at and jumo out of the window. This is a feat of getting up, throwing projectiles and then running away which was.completed before Kakashi could attempt a legitimate block. Practically, it's a speed blitz. Now Kakashi himself later went on to have feats of matching MS Sasuke with a clone and beating V2 chakra arms. Now since MS Sasuke directly scales to a V1 Raikage that is clean above Jonin Minato, that puts Kabuto in the same league - above Minato.

So Kabuto beats Minato with action speed, with the former moving at V1 Raikage range while the latter is cleanly below that, as well as.reaction speed with the former being closer to V2 speeds while the latter is unlikely to be much higher than V1.

That said, their named abilities can work to nullify that difference in speed.
For Minato is FTG. This means that if he is ever in trouble, he just pops out. Since Kabuto doesn't move.fast enough to truly blitz him, he's always safe with a few kunai around. He also has his toad summons that he can do combos with. A barrage of Water Bullets is.much deadleir with Guilding Thunder constantly returning them.
For Kabuto are his traps, although they require preparations that are not always guaranteed. Well, he can use snakes to transform them into human shape and do the same trick, which would be an excellent blindside method to counter FTG. It seems he was the one who summoned the snakes for the Konoha Invasion, so it makes sense that he can also summon them to both outnumber and individually overpower the frogs. He also has soldier pills that drastically boost his action and reaction powers to the point of outmaneuvering Tsunade, albeit she wasn't at her best. Combining this with his healing abilities makes his defenses superb against small scale attacks. Finally, his chakra scalpels make him extremely dangerous at close range because even a dodged hit can be extended to fatal effect. Of course, Manda 2 is excluded from his line up.

So even in backup powers Minato doesn't pull away. In all honesty I figured the preparation time would help Minato more than Kabuto, with FTG tags and all.
 

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Literally the summary and 30% of my entire post!

The bold proves we're clearly not in the same page.

So imma nuke that debate and start afresh (next post) altogether. I know the urge to try to sum thngs up quickly, but that really kills debate where the key is in the details. So please read carefully.
Post automatically merged:

I see quite a few fellas and fellasses seem to think there is some major difference between Kabuto and Minato, so imma cut short the quid pro quo of endless exchanges by nipping the issue at its bud. Bud which would be, as far as i can tell, a mixing up of feats and powers. Mostly in terms of what the Hokage can do due to their showings in the 4th war.

So where to begin?

I'll start with the major power boost cause: 4th war performance. See, the Reaper Seal was described as a seal that makes the caster and victim fight each other continuously, no rest. This makes it's the ultimate training dungeon. So the Minato we saw there was a Minato who had been training restlessly with three other Hokage (for at least 2 years) and with Kurama for 15 years . . This means that even Hokage Minato is 15 years of ultra training weaker.
Then add on that Minato also had Kurama givng him his chakra mode. Now that took Naruto from being Kakashi level to using single clones to beat legendary kage (kinda). That is clearly a major boost that even Hokage Minato would have to be scaled down from. So these are two major boosts that even Hokage Minato doesn't have. Knowing, even roughly, how much they boost someone allows for a simple conclusion that the real Minato, while alive, would be weaker to a certain degree. That degree, I say, is easily large enough to put even Hokage Minato in the bracket of characters like Kakashi and Kabuto.

With that settled, I can now focus on Jonin Minato and how he scales in combat. In this case, remember that this version should be even weaker than Hokage Minato. Reason being that Kakashi told Naruto that Minato was always growing and hadn't reached his prime, during the Rasenshuriken training. So that means that any two versions of Minato are decently different in ability. This also fits what Raikage said about Minato being unsurpassable in that you can't surpass someone who is always growing stronger. Compare that with the explanation that Minato was chosen as Hokage because Orochimaru was wicked, which means he was also stronger than Minato. So if Minato was weaker than Orochimaru but was still called unsurpassable, then clearly it references his growth potential as opposed to his current power. Now.with characters like Raikage and Orochimaru growing so much in their own right compared to when Minato was.alive, then one can scale.from their growth of ability to guesstimate how much Minato would've grown between his Jonin and Hokage days. Since Minato was clearly shown as the guy who's growth ability beats all others, then he'd develop even more in any time period than others. Combining that with the number of years between the clash with Raikage and Bee and the fight against Obito, I'd say his strength grew by the difference between a standard Jonin and Chunin relative to his own strength. So one can't even apply the skill and quality of Hokage Minato in considering thngs here.
Now I can look directly at what Jonin Minato proved capable of. In his fight, he could observe Raikage so clearly that he waited until the last possible second before using FTG to escape. Now that Raikage should scale to less than V1 of 4th war Raikage because he himself had been doing crazy training for 15 years. That and Killer B outperformed him with his interception. That was a very young and much weaker Killer B to the 4th war version. Now since Killer B in base could not match Raikage in V1 (Lariat, both needed V1 to sync), it means that the Raikage from the Minato fight is less than his V1 version from the 4th war era. Adding in that the younger Killer B, being weaker, outright outperformed Raikage against Minato makes it likely that Raikage from Minato fight is more equivalent to his unboosted/base 4th war version. So Minato is able to comfortably follow the movement of base Raikage from 4th war. I figure that he could also manage, given the ease of his feat, to decently follow V1 Raikage. That is somewhat supported by the fact that Sasuke, being arguably as talented as Minato but trained by an Orochimaru constantly put above Jiraiya for knowledge and skill, also struggled to follow V1 Raikage, needing to outright hax his way through with Sharingan Precognition. Again, I figure Sasuke is comparable due to natural talent and teachers being similar, with Orochimaru being better than Jiraiya and Sasuke being an alien spawn making up for Minato being older. Minato having a better reaction to a tail switch from Killer Bee is balanced out by the Killer B that Sasuke fought being much stronger. So that leaves Minato having mental speed good enough for V1 Raikage. As for his action, we see that he can do a 1m arm swing before Jonin Raikage can react, although Killer B could easily.outpace him with a tail. Now we cannot be sure if Minato could outspeed Raikage because Raikage could easily have been dazed or wondering where on earth Minato had gone. Basically, it'd be a situation like interceptions where slower characters beat faster characters because the faster guy was surprised/shocked/uncaring. Still, the fact that Minato chose FTG instead of normal dodging tells clearly that his normal body movements are well below Jonin Raikage, who scales below V1 Raikage from 4th war.

All in all, we have Jonin Minato being able to react, with FTG to speeds of V1 Raikage and being able to move normally at speeds at least comfortably below V1 Raikage.

That said, how does Kabuto scale?
First his own reactions. In chapters 88-89, Kabuto is clearly scaled to Kakashi. Now that applies even to Kakashi from the 4th war because his developments were in regard to his eyes and stamina, not physical movements. This is proved by how he still struggled with Zabuza just like before (Zabuza being the guy who nullifies the Sharingan). Now that Kakashi was able to cleanlt track and launch chakra to counter a chakra arrow from MS Sasuke. MS Sasuke himself had eye powers that caught V2 Raikage and could follow V1 Raikage. Now Kakashi later concedes that his body could not dodge, but that still means his eyes can track an arrow that should be closer to V2 Raikage than V1 Raikage. Now since Kabuto beat Kakashi with his trickery and quick execution of maneuvres, we can. say that his eye movements are just as good as Kakashi, who himself cleanly beats Jonin Minato.
As for his own actions, Kabuto did well to prepare his Dead Soul Technique fast enough to leave no traces for Kakashi to notice. Now the key here lies in that Kabuto would not need the technique if he thought it was slower than however long it would take to complete his mission. That mission was to literally take a body of a child and escape through the window. For him, that should take less than 30 seconds. So that means the task of placing some spell, then surgically replacing three faces and then calming his own heartbeat to standstill was done in less than 30 seconds. He also repeated this when he faked the death of Sai. He created a perfect corpse so quickly that a trio including Naruto and Yamato could not make up the distance on Kabuto and co. Now keep in mind the original distance was less than 1km (from Naruto vs Orochimaru), so Kabuto has to have been practically instantaneous in doing this trick. Back to Kakashi. Kabuto then escaped Kakashi, who was on full alert, by moving from almost behind him (Kakashi was closer to the window) to throw shuriken at and jumo out of the window. This is a feat of getting up, throwing projectiles and then running away which was.completed before Kakashi could attempt a legitimate block. Practically, it's a speed blitz. Now Kakashi himself later went on to have feats of matching MS Sasuke with a clone and beating V2 chakra arms. Now since MS Sasuke directly scales to a V1 Raikage that is clean above Jonin Minato, that puts Kabuto in the same league - above Minato.

So Kabuto beats Minato with action speed, with the former moving at V1 Raikage range while the latter is cleanly below that, as well as.reaction speed with the former being closer to V2 speeds while the latter is unlikely to be much higher than V1.

That said, their named abilities can work to nullify that difference in speed.
For Minato is FTG. This means that if he is ever in trouble, he just pops out. Since Kabuto doesn't move.fast enough to truly blitz him, he's always safe with a few kunai around. He also has his toad summons that he can do combos with. A barrage of Water Bullets is.much deadleir with Guilding Thunder constantly returning them.
For Kabuto are his traps, although they require preparations that are not always guaranteed. Well, he can use snakes to transform them into human shape and do the same trick, which would be an excellent blindside method to counter FTG. It seems he was the one who summoned the snakes for the Konoha Invasion, so it makes sense that he can also summon them to both outnumber and individually overpower the frogs. He also has soldier pills that drastically boost his action and reaction powers to the point of outmaneuvering Tsunade, albeit she wasn't at her best. Combining this with his healing abilities makes his defenses superb against small scale attacks. Finally, his chakra scalpels make him extremely dangerous at close range because even a dodged hit can be extended to fatal effect. Of course, Manda 2 is excluded from his line up.

So even in backup powers Minato doesn't pull away. In all honesty I figured the preparation time would help Minato more than Kabuto, with FTG tags and all.
I just realized, using the Kabuto VS Kakashi fight in this instance is just dumb. First, Kakashi didn't have his Sharingan out so it was deactivated, so he was slower and his reaction speed was also slower. Second, Kabuto showed no feats of reaction speed in that so-called fight at all, he just ran away and that's it. Third, Kakashi didn't even try to go after Kabuto after that instance. Fourth, when Kakashi used Kamui on the Susanoo Arrow, he already knew it was coming, so he was already ready to use Kamui. So Kakashi's feats isn't really that impressive if we really think about it.

The Raikage at the time where Minato dodges his attack was the fastest shinobi at the time and after Minato dodged it he got the title of the fastest shinobi to ever live.

Kabuto at this time legit has no feats of mental reaction speed, while Minato has a few. I want you to name one other so-called feat of Kabuto other than the nonsense one you talked about.
 
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Infant

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I just realized, using the Kabuto VS Kakashi fight in this instance is just dumb. First, Kakashi didn't have his Sharingan out so it was deactivated, so he was slower and his reaction speed was also slower. Second, Kabuto showed no feats of reaction speed in that so-called fight at all, he just ran away and that's it. Third, Kakashi didn't even try to go after Kabuto after that instance. Fourth, when Kakashi used Kamui on the Susanoo Arrow, he already knew it was coming, so he was already ready to use Kamui. So Kakashi's feats isn't really that impressive if we really think about it.

The Raikage at the time where Minato dodges his attack was the fastest shinobi at the time and after Minato dodged it he got the title of the fastest shinobi to ever live.

Kabuto at this time legit has no feats of mental reaction speed, while Minato has a few. I want you to name one other so-called feat of Kabuto other than the nonsense one you talked about.
Sharingan doesn't grant physical speed. It grants precog. Big difference, read up on it!

1- He had a clone in place which was capable.of seeing all the bodies, so Kabuto getting up and runnng away was within its field of vision. So Kabuto managed an effective blitz there.

2- Timing is still a mental awareness ability. Works to the same effect as reactions. Or rather, in the same way.

3- Coz he was beaten!!!!

4- So did Danzo! Are you seriously downplaying the speed of a chakra arrow?

Okay, I'll play along (but only this once)
- avoiding Shizune poison needles, and her poison gas
- avoiding hits from Tsunade, the cqc specialist among the Sannin
- self adjusting to better handle 4 tailed Naruto chakra roar to handle it better than Sakura - THE EVASION SPECIALIST - despite being closer to Naruto to start with

You legitimately need to read up
 

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Sharingan doesn't grant physical speed. It grants precog. Big difference, read up on it!

1- He had a clone in place which was capable.of seeing all the bodies, so Kabuto getting up and runnng away was within its field of vision. So Kabuto managed an effective blitz there.

2- Timing is still a mental awareness ability. Works to the same effect as reactions. Or rather, in the same way.

3- Coz he was beaten!!!!

4- So did Danzo! Are you seriously downplaying the speed of a chakra arrow?

Okay, I'll play along (but only this once)
- avoiding Shizune poison needles, and her poison gas
- avoiding hits from Tsunade, the cqc specialist among the Sannin
- self adjusting to better handle 4 tailed Naruto chakra roar to handle it better than Sakura - THE EVASION SPECIALIST - despite being closer to Naruto to start with

You legitimately need to read up
Yes, it does?

First: Running away is no type of feat. A blitz? Sure. Keep dreaming buddy.

Second: Depends.

Third: No he wasn't. I think you have a different viewpoint of being beaten or not. Because Kakashi was not even close to being beaten.

Fourth: What? Danzo knew it was coming yes, but he still got hit by it? And I am not downplaying the speed at all.

I can't personally find him dodging Shizune's gas or needles. But even if he did that's not much of a feat. The two Jutsus are not that fast in the end.
Kabuto made Tsunade's arm weaker, so they wouldn't hit that hard and Kabuto got hit multiple times as well. Besides Tsunade is pretty slow so dodging her hits is easy.
Never happened. Even if it did it wouldn't be too much of a feat anyway.
 

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Kabuto has the reflexes to take this, but I highly doubt he could avoid an FTG slash aight of the bat seeing as his reflexes are slower than Ei.
This implies, no forces, that young Bee in base has better reactions than RAIKAGE in full armour . . ?

So the only other option is that Raikage back then was much slower and his chakra armour was much weaker (Minato tried to pierce it with a kunai when Sasuke with a lightning boosted blade couldn't, and Bee felt he needed to defend Raikage, suggesting the kunai could've worked)
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Yes, it does?

First: Running away is no type of feat. A blitz? Sure. Keep dreaming buddy.

Second: Depends.

Third: No he wasn't. I think you have a different viewpoint of being beaten or not. Because Kakashi was not even close to being beaten.

Fourth: What? Danzo knew it was coming yes, but he still got hit by it? And I am not downplaying the speed at all.

I can't personally find him dodging Shizune's gas or needles. But even if he did that's not much of a feat. The two Jutsus are not that fast in the end.
Kabuto made Tsunade's arm weaker, so they wouldn't hit that hard and Kabuto got hit multiple times as well. Besides Tsunade is pretty slow so dodging her hits is easy.
Never happened. Even if it did it wouldn't be too much of a feat anyway.
I'll answer later
 

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This implies, no forces, that young Bee in base has better reactions than RAIKAGE in full armour . . ?

So the only other option is that Raikage back then was much slower and his chakra armour was much weaker (Minato tried to pierce it with a kunai when Sasuke with a lightning boosted blade couldn't, and Bee felt he needed to defend Raikage, suggesting the kunai could've worked)
I'd say that Bee improved as well, and it's an established fact that he's likely superior to emaciated Ei (repelling his onslaught on Naruto) but the thing is, where is the comparison btw Kabuto, & Minato drawn?

Like where they ever paralleled, like ever in this series?
 

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I'd say that Bee improved as well, and it's an established fact that he's likely superior to emaciated Ei (repelling his onslaught on Naruto) but the thing is, where is the comparison btw Kabuto, & Minato drawn?

Like where they ever paralleled, like ever in this series?
I mean that when B reacted to Minato better than Raikage, he was in base while Raikage was in full armour (so, V2). Its too much of a difference! So since B improved as well, then its even worse. Now I fnd it highly unlikely that B from his younger days has better reactions than Raikage from his elder days. So have to conclude that Raikage improved drastically over the years.

Direct parallels? Not sure
But there is a bit of something in that Kabuto is compared to prime Sannin in Tsunade while Minato was also given praise by Sannin in Jiraiya. You also have them facing off against the same Sharingan pair and working with the other half of that pair. You also have them both later achieving SM. You also have them being directly raised by Sannin in Orochimaru and Jiraiya.

As for me: Kakashi is the link.
From Minato facing off against Jonin Raikage, to Raikage facing off against Sasuke, to Sasuke facing off against Kakashi, who had already faced Kabuto and was deemed a parallel/inferior
 

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I mean that when B reacted to Minato better than Raikage, he was in base while Raikage was in full armour (so, V2). Its too much of a difference! So since B improved as well, then its even worse. Now I fnd it highly unlikely that B from his younger days has better reactions than Raikage from his elder days. So have to conclude that Raikage improved drastically over the years.
Oh okay. So you're basing this' of NP.

I get ya.

But I've a bit to add to that. V2 is defined as the Mode he enters to access his Max Shunshin. The visual hues were the hair spikes, and eye sclera. So I doubt what he used at that was what we know as V2.

It could've been V1 or the lesser mode that he employed to intercept Jyūgo/Suigetsu.

Now, pertaining a few difference in thier applications.

  • Cee's statement alludes that he doesn't use his full speed even in V1 for 99% of the part. Key proof is that Jyūgo could intercept an axe strike - Eī, yet failed to cognate the latter, when he blitzed him physically latter on.
  • Darūi is equatable to Sasuke-blitzing Eī yet we know that this contests portrayal as he was the fastest Shinobi at that time - the plausible way of reconcile w/ this the fact he could've improvised his armor.
I'm thinking that Base Bee isn't any faster than his Tentacle equipped fist variant (that he employed VS Eī) and the one he likely stopped was the latter.
Direct parallels? Not sure

But there is a bit of something in that Kabuto is compared to prime Sannin in Tsunade while Minato was also given praise by Sannin in Jiraiya. You also have them facing off against the same Sharingan pair and working with the other half of that pair. You also have them both later achieving SM. You also have them being directly raised by Sannin in Orochimaru and Jiraiya.
Good point. So do you believe that this pertains to them physically?
As for me: Kakashi is the link.

From Minato facing off against Jonin Raikage, to Raikage facing off against Sasuke, to Sasuke facing off against Kakashi, who had already faced Kabuto and was deemed a parallel/inferior
Well, to attribute to this, Minato had the perfect counter to Kakashi's ST. The symbolism here is that Obito shares it as well. Then there is Kaguya being the Gedo Mazo, while dually being the progenitor of Chakra, and Space/time Ninjutsu - Minato has two of these aspects -
  • CS in KCSM - Narūto CC Kyūbi Alliance.
  • Hiraishin + V2 + Variants (Kaguya seems to have 7+ dimensions in her time-space [seems to allocated for future plot])
However, admittedly I can't seem to pinpoint the detail that precisely links the associated correlation and the one you've brought up?

I think we might find it in my extant in this debate. Altering the correlations to battle simulation employable key details is a necessity so that we can apply them practically in battle simulations.
 
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Yes, it does?

First: Running away is no type of feat. A blitz? Sure. Keep dreaming buddy.

Second: Depends.

Third: No he wasn't. I think you have a different viewpoint of being beaten or not. Because Kakashi was not even close to being beaten.

Fourth: What? Danzo knew it was coming yes, but he still got hit by it? And I am not downplaying the speed at all.

I can't personally find him dodging Shizune's gas or needles. But even if he did that's not much of a feat. The two Jutsus are not that fast in the end.
Kabuto made Tsunade's arm weaker, so they wouldn't hit that hard and Kabuto got hit multiple times as well. Besides Tsunade is pretty slow so dodging her hits is easy.
Never happened. Even if it did it wouldn't be too much of a feat anyway.
No it doesn't. I will explain basic fact like this only once, the onus is on you to read up.

Precog shows what is gonna happen before it happens. In the case of the sharingan, this is based on reading muscle movements and deciphering them. This allows the person to react earlier (i.e. you can dodge a kick before it is complete). Their actual physical moves are still at their own speed.

1. Eh?
Any action is a feat, by definition!
When the opponent is tryng to capture you, is renowned as one of the fastest and most knowledgeable on close range tactics and you'll start in the same room, escaping is a mega-feat!
Hmm, Kabuto legit covered a greator distance before Kakashi could react, how is that not a blitz?

2. Pfft
I'm not pursuing this one

3. You're not completely wrong
You lack context. If it was a fight full on, you'd be right.
In context, Kakashi was trying to capture Kabuto . . .

4. Ehh?
You said Kakashi managing a mental reaction was not impressive because the arrow was probably not that fast . . Don't make me quote you, coz that'll be the end of this debate.

Dodging something made to be fast and inconspicuous isn't impressive? First you gotta see them then dodge them in time, its legit superior to simply dodging a normal arrow.
Ayt, my bad
Read chapter 291-295. When Naruto does his chakra roar in v2. Again, why is it not impressive?

See, you've contradicted yourself, you've shown legit lack of knowledge on manga concepts, you've downplayed feats based on . . . I don't know what! Worst of all, you keep making grand declarations of what counts and what doesn't on an authority neither of us possesses! Legit wtf is going on with you? (Btw, those behaviour patterns fits someone with hypoglycemia . . . )

Look, I legit consider you to be a cool guy and I'd much rather be on friendly terms with you than otherwise but we gotta respect each other. In this context, that means talking about things we know about (hence me saying you should read up) and being willing to concede where fitting. Right now I'm just feeling insulted but my gut says you're way better than that. COME ON!!
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Oh okay. So you're basing this' of NP.

I get ya.

But I've a bit to add to that. V2 is defined as the Mode he enters to access his Max Shunshin. The visual hues were the hair spikes, and eye sclera. So I doubt what he used at that was what we know as V2.

It could've been V1 or the lesser mode that he employed to intercept Jyūgo/Suigetsu.

Now, pertaining a few difference in thier applications.

  • Cee's statement alludes that he doesn't use his full speed even in V1 for 99% of the part. Key proof is that Jyūgo could intercept an axe strike - Eī, yet failed to cognate the latter, when he blitzed him physically latter on.
  • Darūi is equatable to Sasuke-blitzing Eī yet we know that this contests portrayal as he was the fastest Shinobi at that time - the plausible way of reconcile w/ this the fact he could've improvised his armor.
I'm thinking that Base Bee isn't any faster than his Tentacle equipped fist variant (that he employed VS Eī) and the one he likely stopped was the latter.
I hear ya

Considering that his chakra armour has a quantifiable output variance, its fair to say he can freely variate how much such that his forms don't force any particular % of output, with the exception of V2 where he is going for 100%. So his V1 ranges from 1% to maybe 80% of total output. Still, considering he barely got by with Jugo and was matched by Sasuke, I think its fair to say the V1 he showed was ranging in the upper 50's of %. Reason being if he was much lower (like, 20%) he'd have just pumped up instead of going full V2.

Yeah, Raikage was in V1 when Darui teamed with him, so there's no contradiction of portrayal. Although the portrayal itself is shaky when characters like Nagato, Hidan, Kakuzu and Deidara all existed in the shadows. Its like calling the heavyweight champion the hest boxer in the world when there is underground illegal boxers who don't have a proper chance to challenge him.

Hmm, I see.



Good point. So do you believe that this pertains to them physically?
Apples and oranges.

An apple and orange can have the same price (i.e. equal value) but their individual stats (sweetness, juiciness, fibre content etc) be very different. I think Kabuto and Minato are near each other in overall ability, but in individual stats one can be faster and the other more intelligent.


Well, to attribute to this, Minato had the perfect counter to Kakashi's ST. The symbolism here is that Obito shares it as well. Then there is Kaguya being the Gedo Mazo, while dually being the progenitor of Chakra, and Space/time Ninjutsu - Minato has two of these aspects -
  • CS in KCSM - Narūto CC Kyūbi Alliance.
  • Hiraishin + V2 + Variants (Kaguya seems to have 7+ dimensions in her time-space [seems to allocated for future plot])
However, admittedly I can't seem to pinpoint the detail that precisely links the associated correlation and the one you've brought up?

I think we might find it in my extant in this debate. Altering the correlations to battle simulation employable key details is a necessity so that we can apply them practically in battle simulations.
I hear ya.

Yet it bothers me in that once we start to point out specific counters that takes away from actual abilities that are always there. Its like saying the character in question shouldn't be credited for their feat/skill, as though it was a once off that doesn't normally exist. Otherwise, your breakdown is good.
 
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