[Discussion] jack and artifical devils fruits

[chopstickchakra]

Enlighten me, if you agree with Uzumaki on all points. Please tell me how Jack is still alive if he isn't a fishman. I will even allow for assumptions.

Assumptions allowed? Devil's advocate time!

Well we don't actually know how long he's underwater before he's picked up(assuming he's picked up now) so he could have been able to simply hold his breath a long time. Now I know you're thinking , yeah sure he can hold his breath for hours or days pfft, but...

A. It's a manga where a lot of people have shown well beyond human feats such as the stamina and endurance to fight for days on end.

B. Jack is massive, how are we to guess on how big and capable his lungs are? There's people with the same build as each other and one can hold his breath longer than the other so maybe Jack has exceptional lung capacity. Plus it's larger than normal humans in One Piece so we have to assume it's longer than most just by default.

Which brings me to C. His mammoth form, what if he was able to transform quick enough to get a big mammoth sized intake of air then revert to human form so it last longer?


All said, I still think he's part fishman but for the sake of continuing theorizing about Jack, how long do you think he was actually submerged before being picked up?

Do you think he had to wait for a whole new ship or do you think someone from his fleet would be able to go down and get him?

If the whole crew were Zoan users(even artificial they'd still lose ability to swim right?) than really they're all dead and no one's left to report Jack's location to Kaido so he may not ever be picked up, but that seems unlikely to happen so I'm guessing someone on the ship when it was destroyed was able to bring him back up to the surface relatively soon I doubt he was really down there for hours or days, do you?

 

[ArabianLuffy]

Jack is massive, how are we to guess on how big and capable his lungs are? There's people with the same build as each other and one can hold his breath longer than the other so maybe Jack has exceptional lung capacity. Plus it's larger than normal humans in One Piece so we have to assume it's longer than most just by default.

woah, chopstickchakra! This statement, I don't think we can work logic in One Piece. Yeah, Jack is a big man, but his deep diving ability would be the same as any ordinary diver. His massive body won't give him any upper hand in staying underwater longer than any. It all comes down to practicing diving to expand lungs.

If Jack turned out to be 100% human, he highly gave on swimming and diving skills long ago. As swimming and diving are an important things for a pirate. However, the odds play their parts that it wouldn't make any sense that Wano be without Jack. There is no way of hell that Wano arc gonna end without Jack playing his part in it.

His sharp teeth are something that I doubt we've seen in any human. Jeez! Is Moria even a human with his ridiculous whole look? Never mind.

 

[Love Cook]

Assumptions allowed? Devil's advocate time!

Well we don't actually know how long he's underwater before he's picked up(assuming he's picked up now) so he could have been able to simply hold his breath a long time. Now I know you're thinking , yeah sure he can hold his breath for hours or days pfft, but...

A. It's a manga where a lot of people have shown well beyond human feats such as the stamina and endurance to fight for days on end.

B. Jack is massive, how are we to guess on how big and capable his lungs are? There's people with the same build as each other and one can hold his breath longer than the other so maybe Jack has exceptional lung capacity. Plus it's larger than normal humans in One Piece so we have to assume it's longer than most just by default.

Which brings me to C. His mammoth form, what if he was able to transform quick enough to get a big mammoth sized intake of air then revert to human form so it last longer?


All said, I still think he's part fishman but for the sake of continuing theorizing about Jack, how long do you think he was actually submerged before being picked up?

Do you think he had to wait for a whole new ship or do you think someone from his fleet would be able to go down and get him?

If the whole crew were Zoan users(even artificial they'd still lose ability to swim right?) than really they're all dead and no one's left to report Jack's location to Kaido so he may not ever be picked up, but that seems unlikely to happen so I'm guessing someone on the ship when it was destroyed was able to bring him back up to the surface relatively soon I doubt he was really down there for hours or days, do you?

I think we're waiting for a new crew since his got pretty much all wiped out. If Kaidou is true to his word most of his henchmen have a df ability, so yeah diving would be troublesome unless they have one of those coral things from fishman island.

 

[Caliburn]

then all what you have posted and wasted energy and time on it

it's just assumptions ( as you said )

Oda didn't confirm it , so no winner here in the discussion

​

The only thing you posted in this thread before this post was that you agreed on the characteristics of someone with a mental illness. With other words utter worthless spam and now you post this farce? So it's really ridiculous that you're going to talk about wasting energy as you have been only a complete and utter waste of time, space and energy for everyone in this thread. We on the other hand do what the entire purpose of a thread is: to discuss the topic, which I reckon is a bit more meaningful than wasting your own energy telling other people they're wasting their energy. In particular when you're a banned person on an alt.

And this isn't about winning, this is about discussing themes of the series, being objective and calculating the probability of theories and ideas. You know for what this entire section exists for. If we would follow your nonsensical logic, we should stop making threads to discuss topics. Why are you even on a forum if you don't even understand that?

 

[chopstickchakra]

woah, chopstickchakra! This statement, I don't think we can work logic in One Piece. Yeah, Jack is a big man, but his deep diving ability would be the same as any ordinary diver. His massive body won't give him any upper hand in staying underwater longer than any. It all comes down to practicing diving to expand lungs.

If Jack turned out to be 100% human, he highly gave on swimming and diving skills long ago. As swimming and diving are an important things for a pirate. However, the odds play their parts that it wouldn't make any sense that Wano be without Jack. There is no way of hell that Wano arc gonna end without Jack playing his part in it.

His sharp teeth are something that I doubt we've seen in any human. Jeez! Is Moria even a human with his ridiculous whole look? Never mind.

His body size would give him more lung capacity than the typical person based on the size of them in comparison alone. So assuming he's 4 times bigger than an average person he'd logically be able to stay underwater 4x's longer as well and that's with no training. It's just one possible way he'd be able to survive until someone from his crew picked him out without being a fishman.

I think we're waiting for a new crew since his got pretty much all wiped out. If Kaidou is true to his word most of his henchmen have a df ability, so yeah diving would be troublesome unless they have one of those coral things from fishman island.

I was thinking the same about the crew being all smile users so I wonder how word will get back to Kaido about Jack's location if the rest of the crew sank when the boat was destroyed too? Though now I think about it I guess after Jack doesn't return for so long Kaido will send someone out and I'm sure Yonkou have vivre cards for their commanders. I hope Oda gives us a time length when he shows Jack again.

 

[Caliburn]

His body size would give him more lung capacity than the typical person based on the size of them in comparison alone. So assuming he's 4 times bigger than an average person he'd logically be able to stay underwater 4x's longer as well and that's with no training. It's just one possible way he'd be able to survive until someone from his crew picked him out without being a fishman.



I was thinking the same about the crew being all smile users so I wonder how word will get back to Kaido about Jack's location if the rest of the crew sank when the boat was destroyed too? Though now I think about it I guess after Jack doesn't return for so long Kaido will send someone out and I'm sure Yonkou have vivre cards for their commanders. I hope Oda gives us a time length when he shows Jack again.

I'm really not sure why you're so keen these days on this devil's advocate gimmick, but you still very well need to adhere to the same rules and framework that are in place like everyone else, even if someone said you can make assumptions. Unless of course you clearly specify a what-if scenario, but that would function only as a training method for the opposing person to see if he can cope with the altered information and respond accordingly. Content-wise however it's rather pointless.

At this point though pretty much the majority of what you said in your DA argumentation is either wrong or quite flawed.

For starters this is Jack at the bottom of the ocean:

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

This picture alone makes your entire idea of him just holding his breath very shaky as then you need to explain that his mouth is quite open for a guy who is trying to hold his breath in. You also would expect a bloated face in an attempt to contain as much air as possible and I'm not even going to elaborate on the factor of water pressure.

Secondly you have been rather very liberal in your entire analysis and interpretation of his body structure and capabilities. Jack is a DF user, meaning he loses all strength when submerged. Now simplified there are actually two types of muscles: voluntary and involuntary. Meaning muscles you can consciously control and muscles you can't (or barely). Now pretty much everything related to your organs falls under the latter category. The fact that no DF user so far immediately dropped dead after coming into contact with water or seastone, means that their organs still function and that it are mostly their voluntary muscles they can't use anymore.

Now keeping your breath in under water is actually quite a physically demanding task for which you need to use several of your voluntary muscles to counteract some of your involuntary muscles. Yet he can't use those. If he actually is able to hold his breath in for that long, he might as well should be able to swim away.

Adding to that it's not because you are in excellent shape that therefore you can hold your breath in for very long, that's not how it works. It's a very peculiar skill that primarily has be trained by actually training for it specifically and I know this from personal experience. The fact that Jack is a DF user, and most likely didn't became one yesterday, when it comes to training for something like this, I think it has been a really long time.

Thirdly yes being bigger means having bigger lungs and a bigger lung capacity. It also means you need that much more oxygen to keep everything working. This is one those situations that being bigger doesn't automatically means it's better and possibly even worse. If you have two people who are identical, but one is four times bigger, has lungs that are four times bigger, but also needs four times more oxygen, well then the amount of time they could hold their breath would almost be the same. I'm not an expert on biology, but on average the bigger a being is, the more it needs to sustain itself. Which is one of the reasons why many large species have gone extinct.

Rationally speaking I dare say someone petite like Nami could potentially hold her breath longer in than Jack as she has shown to be a capable swimmer. Jack on the other hand is a huge hammer.

 

[chopstickchakra]

I'm really not sure why you're so keen these days on this devil's advocate gimmick, but you still very well need to adhere to the same rules and framework that are in place like everyone else, even if someone said you can make assumptions. Unless of course you clearly specify a what-if scenario, but that would function only as a training method for the opposing person to see if he can cope with the altered information and respond accordingly. Content-wise however it's rather pointless.

At this point though pretty much the majority of what you said in your DA argumentation is either wrong or quite flawed.

For starters this is Jack at the bottom of the ocean:

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

This picture alone makes your entire idea of him just holding his breath very shaky as then you need to explain that his mouth is quite open for a guy who is trying to hold his breath in. You also would expect a bloated face in an attempt to contain as much air as possible and I'm not even going to elaborate on the factor of water pressure.

Secondly you have been rather very liberal in your entire analysis and interpretation of his body structure and capabilities. Jack is a DF user, meaning he loses all strength when submerged. Now simplified there are actually two types of muscles: voluntary and involuntary. Meaning muscles you can consciously control and muscles you can't (or barely). Now pretty much everything related to your organs falls under the latter category. The fact that no DF user so far immediately dropped dead after coming into contact with water or seastone, means that their organs still function and that it are mostly their voluntary muscles they can't use anymore.

Now keeping your breath in under water is actually quite a physically demanding task for which you need to use several of your voluntary muscles to counteract some of your involuntary muscles. Yet he can't use those. If he actually is able to hold his breath in for that long, he might as well should be able to swim away.

Adding to that it's not because you are in excellent shape that therefore you can hold your breath in for very long, that's not how it works. It's a very peculiar skill that primarily has be trained by actually training for it specifically and I know this from personal experience. The fact that Jack is a DF user, and most likely didn't became one yesterday, when it comes to training for something like this, I think it has been a really long time.

Thirdly yes being bigger means having bigger lungs and a bigger lung capacity. It also means you need that much more oxygen to keep everything working. This is one those situations that being bigger doesn't automatically means it's better and possibly even worse. If you have two people who are identical, but one is four times bigger, has lungs that are four times bigger, but also needs four times more oxygen, well then the amount of time they could hold their breath would almost be the same. I'm not an expert on biology, but on average the bigger a being is, the more it needs to sustain itself. Which is one of the reasons why many large species have gone extinct.

Rationally speaking I dare say someone petite like Nami could potentially hold her breath longer in than Jack as she has shown to be a capable swimmer. Jack on the other hand is a huge hammer.

Because that's the term used when presenting arguments for the opposing side when you're not actually a member of the opposing side. Not everyone has to have a discussion in the same manner and LC proposed assumptions be allowed. It's an assumption he could have held his breath. It's an assumption that he wasn't actually underwater that long. Assumptions on a manga don't need to be based on real world physics and biology just those presented within the manga's verse and I don't really see where my assumptions contradicted anything there.

As for this Now simplified there are actually two types of muscles: voluntary and involuntary. Meaning muscles you can consciously control and muscles you can't (or barely). Now pretty much everything related to your organs falls under the latter category. The fact that no DF user so far immediately dropped dead after coming into contact with water or seastone, means that their organs still function and that it are mostly their voluntary muscles they can't use anymore.
Now keeping your breath in under water is actually quite a physically demanding task for which you need to use several of your voluntary muscles to counteract some of your involuntary muscles. Yet he can't use those. If he actually is able to hold his breath in for that long, he might as well should be able to swim away.
Then does that mean fishmen breath through involuntary muscles? Because a DF Fishman would still need to breath or are the gills filtration process involuntary? So even if Jack was a fishman(which for the record I do still think he is) wouldn't he still be drowning then since he can't control his body to filter the oxygen from the water?

 

[Light up the Darkness]

Because that's the term used when presenting arguments for the opposing side when you're not actually a member of the opposing side. Not everyone has to have a discussion in the same manner and LC proposed assumptions be allowed. It's an assumption he could have held his breath. It's an assumption that he wasn't actually underwater that long. Assumptions on a manga don't need to be based on real world physics and biology just those presented within the manga's verse and I don't really see where my assumptions contradicted anything there.

As for this Now simplified there are actually two types of muscles: voluntary and involuntary. Meaning muscles you can consciously control and muscles you can't (or barely). Now pretty much everything related to your organs falls under the latter category. The fact that no DF user so far immediately dropped dead after coming into contact with water or seastone, means that their organs still function and that it are mostly their voluntary muscles they can't use anymore.
Now keeping your breath in under water is actually quite a physically demanding task for which you need to use several of your voluntary muscles to counteract some of your involuntary muscles. Yet he can't use those. If he actually is able to hold his breath in for that long, he might as well should be able to swim away.
Then does that mean fishmen breath through involuntary muscles? Because a DF Fishman would still need to breath or are the gills filtration process involuntary? So even if Jack was a fishman(which for the record I do still think he is) wouldn't he still be drowning then since he can't control his body to filter the oxygen from the water?

totally agree

the problem is , he and the other guy mix fantasy with reality

also they don't use the phrase " maybe "

they're talking like what they say is confirmed 100%

Jack still mysterious


it's assumptions and fantasies that's all


​

 

[Love Cook]

Because a DF Fishman would still need to breath or are the gills filtration process involuntary? So even if Jack was a fishman(which for the record I do still think he is) wouldn't he still be drowning then since he can't control his body to filter the oxygen from the water?

I think he can since whenever Luffy is affected by seastone or water he turns into a spineless husk but he still is able to talk and complain. If you can talk you also can breath, it probably just isn't a nice feeling if you've get your energy drained for a long period of time.

Or maybe he pulled a Luffy from Arlong park and stretched his mammoth trunk to the surface.

 

[chopstickchakra]

I think he can since whenever Luffy is affected by seastone or water he turns into a spineless husk but he still is able to talk and complain. If you can talk you also can breath, it probably just isn't a nice feeling if you've get your energy drained for a long period of time.

Or maybe he pulled a Luffy from Arlong park and stretched his mammoth trunk to the surface.

That would be kind of funny to see his help arrive and find him because his nose is sticking out like a periscope.