Itachi vs Zabuza and current Kakashi

[Haizaki]

Gari's explosion is very different from Itachi's. It's destructive scale is much lower than Itachi's so I don't think it's right to make that comparison. It's like saying that since one paper bomb didn't kill someone Tobirama's Gojo Kibaku Fuda won't as well. It's not a reliable way to think.

An explosion is an explosion. The only difference is the scale which doesn't matter.
It killing someone is irrelevant here. The relevance is if it can take out the mist.

Like I said, there's nothing that hints so. Here's Jinpachi using explosives in the mist again

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It won't make sense for them to use it when they know it would dispel the mist. That's more than enough to show explosions can't dispel the mist. Not in Itachi's arsenal at the very least.

Itachi used enough Amaterasu that was half the size of a stadium at the very least including a Tsukuyomi, all of which are more chakra taxing than Bunshins. Itachi simply doesn't use Amaterasu and or Tsukuyomi and instead transmits that chakra to the use Shadow Clones.

Who says this is more chakra taxing? Amaterasu ignites whatever it sees. The scale doesn't mean it's more chakra taxing.

Lol transmits? You must think clones are just easy to use.

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Hashirama and Tobirama as Edo's were able to use high leveled techniques( Mokujin

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, Suidanha and FTG) that require more chakra than one would think but yet they couldn't use more clones

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.

Kiba can use a shadow clone as well. Do you see anyone giving him feats of being able to use more that that?

I'm not sure if you're serious here. Itachi can definitely use more than two shadow clones.

You say definitely but can't provide a scan for it. Not to mention creating a clone is one, the clone exploding is another.

It even requires more chakra for it to explode since it's an explosive clone and not just a shadow.

He can protect himself with a ribcage or V2.

Ok

The smoke doesn't contain chakra and the Sharingan can therefore see through it as it naturally sees the color of chakra. It wouldn't hinder his vision.

Huh? so smoke bombs require chakra? Lol. He won't be seeing through that much. I've shown you a scan of the Rinnegan not being able to see through a cloud of smoke. There's no argument here.

I should add that a Katon should be able to counter the mist. The heat of the flames will burn through the chakra particles contained within the mist and without the chakra the mist will not uphold. Zabuza can create more but that wouldn't happen before Itachi activates Genjutsu.

I fully well doubt this even though it sounds reasonable.

-Madara never resorted to it when he was in the mist
-I'm pretty sure Gai and some others there can use fire to attack. They could have resorted to it but for some reason, did not. I wonder why? Probably because it was futile seeing how they desperately wanted to get rid of the mist.

If that's not enough,
-Pakura was casually using fire release in the mist s you can see her surroundings

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. I'm sure she or Kabuto who's pretty smart should have known this if it could. I'm sure the mist would have been dispelled if you were correct. This shows fire release doesn't do a thing to it especially when the mist wasn't that thick at that point considering Gai noted the thickness increased when the swordsmen were summoned

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. This was way after fire released was used in it and it couldn't clear a thing.

- The fog clears when Zabuza dies

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You're saying Itachi is going to use fire style and then use a genjutsu before Zabuza creates more?

Firstly, he's attempting to clear the mist( since fire release wouldn't do the job) how's he going to cast a genjutsu when he can't even see until it's clear. What are the chances of Zabuza being in front of him?

Secondly, Zabuza's eyes are shut. How's he casting a genjutsu straight after?

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.

Thirdly, What are the chances of him not putting a clone in a genjutsu since he can't even distinguish between clones? We remember what happened the last time when he put a clone in a genjutsu..he figured out afterwards, this happened and he couldn't evade it

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. Inb4 it was a 30percent chakra clone, doesn't matter since that doesn't affect your reflexes and speed. This time, they can attack him from behind where he won't be seeing.

Lastly, Zabuza just needs to raise his hand up for the mist to come

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Genjutsu isn't coming straight after.

 

[Haizaki]

How come he couldn't simply smell Zabuza out in the mist? He relied on his dogs to smell him out.

That's not the problem but as soon as there is an opening/hole in the mist, Itachi would go on the offensive.

@Evani, I just need clarification on whether Kakashi used his scent to track Zabuza in the mist or not. I thought it was his dogs.

Yeah he used his dogs but that was when he resorted to smell since his dogs exceed him in terms of that.

Even asides that, he needed his dogs to hold Zabuza down

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in order for him to use Raikiri

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If not, he could have used Pakkun alone seeing how he uses him when tracking others.

If Kakashi truly can't use his own nose which I doubt when he's better than Part 1 Kiba when it comes to smell, then he can use his dogs to track from underground and he'll know Itachi's position.

 

[Inert Brian]

Itachi would have these two under a genjutsu before they'd even get the signs for hidden mist off.

Please stop underrating Itachi. Sick Itachi is still top 3 akatsuki. The fact that two fodder jonin (Base Kakashi is fodder, don't deny it) according to you can take down a high ranking S class criminal, who I should also note could have destroyed Hebi Sasuke is losing is pure insanity.

Please be a troll, please.

Oh and Hebi Sasuke could low diff these two.

 

[LuckyMan]

Itachi would have these two under a genjutsu before they'd even get the signs for hidden mist off.

Please stop underrating Itachi. Sick Itachi is still top 3 akatsuki. The fact that two fodder jonin (Base Kakashi is fodder, don't deny it) according to you can take down a high ranking S class criminal, who I should also note could have destroyed Hebi Sasuke is losing is pure insanity.

Please be a troll, please.

Oh and Hebi Sasuke could low diff these two.

What happens when they break Itachi's genjutsu? Thats assuming he even manages to get one off.

 

[LustyLover]

An explosion is an explosion. The only difference is the scale which doesn't matter.
It killing someone is irrelevant here. The relevance is if it can take out the mist.

The scale does matter as it pertains to how much mist would be blown backwards and it killing someone is relevant due to the fact that Kakashi and Zabuza will get caught up in the blast.

Like I said, there's nothing that hints so. Here's Jinpachi using explosives in the mist again

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It won't make sense for them to use it when they know it would dispel the mist. That's more than enough to show explosions can't dispel the mist. Not in Itachi's arsenal at the very least.

The size of the explosion is relevant to whether or not the mist will be blown back; that scan containing that explosion is incredibly small when compared to Itachi's so it doesn't prove anything. And yes, size does matter. Just because something of a smaller quantity failed to do something doesn't mean something of a higher quantity and quality will fail as well. All I'm trying to say is that the comparison you are making is like saying that since Pain is using the same technique (let's say Chibaku Tensei) and it fails to imprison the Shinju, another CT (let's say Hagoromo's version), will be unable to imprison it as well regardless of the fact that it's the size of the moon. Quantity matters.

Who says this is more chakra taxing? Amaterasu ignites whatever it sees. The scale doesn't mean it's more chakra taxing.

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and then becomes

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and

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Amaterasu is visibly more chakra taxing than a Bunshin. That is irrefutable.

Lol transmits? You must think clones are just easy to use.

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Hashirama and Tobirama as Edo's were able to use high leveled techniques( Mokujin

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, Suidanha and FTG) that require more chakra than one would think but yet they couldn't use more clones

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.

Lol actually, clones are extremely easy to use.

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That in itself speaks volumes. Part one Kakashi has much smaller chakra reserves than part two Itachi and he was able to make that amount, so Itachi, someone whom possesses a completely superior chakra reserve, can definitely make more than he can.

I should also mention that

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Itachi can do the same unless you believe that part one Naruto has more chakra than part two Itachi does (Naruto, who has passed out of chakra exhaustion by using a single base Rasengan). Either way Itachi is having zero issues making a large amount of Bunshins.

Huh? so smoke bombs require chakra? . He won't be seeing through that much. I've shown you a scan of the Rinnegan not being able to see through a cloud of smoke. There's no argument here.

That's not what I said or even implied. The Sharingan naturally sees chakra; the Rinnegan does not, so you showing me a scan of it being unable to see through smoke is redundant. Unless the very smoke contains chakra to block team two's then the Sharingan sees straight through it and observes the chakra of Kakashi and Zabuza and therefore knows their exact location.

I fully well doubt this even though it sounds reasonable.

-Madara never resorted to it when he was in the mist
-I'm pretty sure Gai and some others there can use fire to attack. They could have resorted to it but for some reason, did not. I wonder why? Probably because it was futile seeing how they desperately wanted to get rid of the mist.

- It's already been clarified that Madara was only toying with the 5 Kage. The reason he didn't clear the mist with a Katon can be attributed with the same reason he didn't just spam multitudes of meteors to crush them: he wasn't taking the battle seriously.
- Maybe because they had Kakashi there to track them through the mist, or because they were trying to avoid decapitation from Zabuza? Just because they didn't use an attack doesn't mean this said attack would have no effect.

If that's not enough,
-Pakura was casually using fire release in the mist s you can see her surroundings

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. I'm sure she or Kabuto who's pretty smart should have known this if it could. I'm sure the mist would have been dispelled if you were correct. This shows fire release doesn't do a thing to it especially when the mist wasn't that thick at that point considering Gai noted the thickness increased when the swordsmen were summoned

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. This was way after fire released was used in it and it couldn't clear a thing.

At best some branches were set aflame. Pakura wasn't specifically aiming to destroy the mist; she was aiming to kill her opponents, whereas Itachi will aim to rid himself of his hindrance: the mist.

You're saying Itachi is going to use fire style and then use a genjutsu before Zabuza creates more?

Firstly, he's attempting to clear the mist( since fire release wouldn't do the job) how's he going to cast a genjutsu when he can't even see until it's clear. What are the chances of Zabuza being in front of him?

Bunshin Daibakuha will literally obliterate the mist up to the point where there will be none left. Not only that, but it'll also put heavy damage on Zabuza and knock him off his feet. Itachi, with Shunshin neither of them will be able to track, would appear at his side and put him in a Sharingan: Genjutsu before Zabuza can make more. And even if Zabuza manages to start making more and it happens to obscure his vision even a little bit, Itachi can simply kill him with a basic kunai, Katon, Amaterasu, or Yasaka Magatama/Susano'o arm.

Secondly, Zabuza's eyes are shut. How's he casting a genjutsu straight after?

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.

Itachi doesn't need eye contact to trap someone in Genjutsu.

Thirdly, What are the chances of him not putting a clone in a genjutsu since he can't even distinguish between clones? We remember what happened the last time when he put a clone in a genjutsu..he figured out afterwards, this happened and he couldn't evade it

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. Inb4 it was a 30percent chakra clone, doesn't matter since that doesn't affect your reflexes and speed. This time, they can attack him from behind where he won't be seeing.

Itachi was there to distract, not win, and he even stated this. Him falling for a clone simply means that he wasn't as serious, something that was canonically stated to be true, whereas here he is bloodlusted. He won't fall for it.

Lastly, Zabuza just needs to raise his hand up for the mist to come

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Genjutsu isn't coming straight after.

In that scan even after the mist is up Zabuza is still visible. It takes multiple seconds for the mist to completely obscure his vision giving Itachi the perfect opportunity to assassinate Zabuza with an Amaterasu before it's up. Itachi can also predict the seal with his 3T Sharingan and counter it accordingly.

Also,

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, so regardless of how well the mist might work, Itachi will figure out where they are before they strike him and avoid their attacks with superior reflexes. Itachi wins this with the lowest of all difficulties.

 

[Eternal Sage]

This vs thread is making me cringe :[

 

[LustyLover]

What happens when they break Itachi's genjutsu? Thats assuming he even manages to get one off.

The problem here is the following:

Spoiler

They can't Lol

 

[ATD]

Itachi would have these two under a genjutsu before they'd even get the signs for hidden mist off.

Please stop underrating Itachi. Sick Itachi is still top 3 akatsuki. The fact that two fodder jonin (Base Kakashi is fodder, don't deny it) according to you can take down a high ranking S class criminal, who I should also note could have destroyed Hebi Sasuke is losing is pure insanity.

Please be a troll, please.

Oh and Hebi Sasuke could low diff these two.

look at the distance how would he place them in a genjutsu before zabuza raises his arm to summon hidden mist ?
right off the bat kakashi would say to zabuza: Use your mist ! and kakashi himself would using doton doriu hekki to protect zabuza from shurikans or katons.

Im not a troll, there is sth that called bad match up and zabuza is a bad matchup for anyone that relies to much on his eyes, he is the best counter to many dojutsus.

it isn't about ranks ( s rank criminals, top 3 akatsuki, uuuu) its about counter abilities and battle tactics and team 2 is better in this area.
Base Kakashi is no fodder, all people think shinobis without a sick dojutsu are fodders, totally bs.
hebi sasuke would get stomped here, itachi would have a chance because he has more experience and better battle tactics than hebi sasuke.

 

[Phonas]

What happens when they break Itachi's genjutsu? Thats assuming he even manages to get one off.

Too bad they won't even be aware that they're in Itachi's genjutsu to begin with, which leaves them blatantly open for a lethal speed/kunai blitz considering it'll be way too late for them to figure out they're in his perfectly replicated illusion while then having to also undergo the process of kneading their chakra in an attempt to break it, all of which will take so, so much time (time they won't have or be given with an efficient, all out Itachi). In other words, Itachi gives them the Orochimaru treatment (but this time he'll go for their throats instead of their hands).

 

[ATD]

Lol actually, clones are extremely easy to use.

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That in itself speaks volumes. Part one Kakashi has much smaller chakra reserves than part two Itachi and he was able to make that amount, so Itachi, someone whom possesses a completely superior chakra reserve, can definitely make more than he can.

I should also mention that

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Itachi can do the same unless you believe that part one Naruto has more chakra than part two Itachi does (Naruto, who has passed out of chakra exhaustion by using a single base Rasengan). Either way Itachi is having zero issues making a large amount of Bunshins.

it isn't easy to make clones, its a jonin jutsu mentioned often during the chunin exam part 1.
Naruto was only able to use it because he is an uzumaki and has large chakra resources due to being the junchuriki of the kyubi.

part 1 naruto has more chakra than kakashi and itachi together, but he hadn't the control over it, except the moment when he protected iruka.

part 1 kakashi fooled the opponents with some trick, i think this here weren't 30 cage bun shins, maybe just bunshins or kage bun shins with very small chakra. the chakra split if you use cage bun shins.

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If itachi would use 1000 clones every one has an 1/1000 chakra from the original, who also has just 1/1000
they won't be able to use an explosion, itachi would be dead if he uses to many.

 

[LustyLover]

it isn't easy to make clones, its a jonin jutsu mentioned often during the chunin exam part 1.
Naruto was only able to use it because he is an uzumaki and has large chakra resources due to being the junchuriki of the kyubi.

part 1 naruto has more chakra than kakashi and itachi together, but he hadn't the control over it, except the moment when he protected iruka.

part 1 kakashi fooled the opponents with some trick, i think this here weren't 30 cage bun shins, maybe just bunshins or kage bun shins with very small chakra. the chakra split if you use cage bun shins.

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If itachi would use 1000 clones every one has an 1/1000 chakra from the original, who also has just 1/1000
they won't be able to use an explosion, itachi would be dead if he uses to many.

You're wrong, but let's say you're right; it wouldn't matter either way because Itachi ends them both with Genjutsu from the start.

 

[MadaraReturns]

itachi's toe

 

[Haizaki]

The scale does matter as it pertains to how much mist would be blown backwards and it killing someone is relevant due to the fact that Kakashi and Zabuza will get caught up in the blast.



The size of the explosion is relevant to whether or not the mist will be blown back; that scan containing that explosion is incredibly small when compared to Itachi's so it doesn't prove anything. And yes, size does matter. Just because something of a smaller quantity failed to do something doesn't mean something of a higher quantity and quality will fail as well. All I'm trying to say is that the comparison you are making is like saying that since Pain is using the same technique (let's say Chibaku Tensei) and it fails to imprison the Shinju, another CT (let's say Hagoromo's version), will be unable to imprison it as well regardless of the fact that it's the size of the moon. Quantity matters.

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and then becomes

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and

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Amaterasu is visibly more chakra taxing than a Bunshin. That is irrefutable.



Lol actually, clones are extremely easy to use.

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That in itself speaks volumes. Part one Kakashi has much smaller chakra reserves than part two Itachi and he was able to make that amount, so Itachi, someone whom possesses a completely superior chakra reserve, can definitely make more than he can.

I should also mention that

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Itachi can do the same unless you believe that part one Naruto has more chakra than part two Itachi does (Naruto, who has passed out of chakra exhaustion by using a single base Rasengan). Either way Itachi is having zero issues making a large amount of Bunshins.



That's not what I said or even implied. The Sharingan naturally sees chakra; the Rinnegan does not, so you showing me a scan of it being unable to see through smoke is redundant. Unless the very smoke contains chakra to block team two's then the Sharingan sees straight through it and observes the chakra of Kakashi and Zabuza and therefore knows their exact location.



- It's already been clarified that Madara was only toying with the 5 Kage. The reason he didn't clear the mist with a Katon can be attributed with the same reason he didn't just spam multitudes of meteors to crush them: he wasn't taking the battle seriously.
- Maybe because they had Kakashi there to track them through the mist, or because they were trying to avoid decapitation from Zabuza? Just because they didn't use an attack doesn't mean this said attack would have no effect.



At best some branches were set aflame. Pakura wasn't specifically aiming to destroy the mist; she was aiming to kill her opponents, whereas Itachi will aim to rid himself of his hindrance: the mist.



Bunshin Daibakuha will literally obliterate the mist up to the point where there will be none left. Not only that, but it'll also put heavy damage on Zabuza and knock him off his feet. Itachi, with Shunshin neither of them will be able to track, would appear at his side and put him in a Sharingan: Genjutsu before Zabuza can make more. And even if Zabuza manages to start making more and it happens to obscure his vision even a little bit, Itachi can simply kill him with a basic kunai, Katon, Amaterasu, or Yasaka Magatama/Susano'o arm.



Itachi doesn't need eye contact to trap someone in Genjutsu.



Itachi was there to distract, not win, and he even stated this. Him falling for a clone simply means that he wasn't as serious, something that was canonically stated to be true, whereas here he is bloodlusted. He won't fall for it.



In that scan even after the mist is up Zabuza is still visible. It takes multiple seconds for the mist to completely obscure his vision giving Itachi the perfect opportunity to assassinate Zabuza with an Amaterasu before it's up. Itachi can also predict the seal with his 3T Sharingan and counter it accordingly.

Also,

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, so regardless of how well the mist might work, Itachi will figure out where they are before they strike him and avoid their attacks with superior reflexes. Itachi wins this with the lowest of all difficulties.

You've completely ignored every point I made.

Itachi can't use dozens or hundreds. Show a scan. I showed you a scan of Hashi and Tobirama but instead you're trying to show me Kakashi feats of being able to use Multiple. That's him and not Itachi. Until you show a scan of this guy using multiple, there's nothing to discuss here.

You ignored and tried to downplay the Pakura scan by saying she wasn't trying to destroy the mist?????? When she used fire style in the mist. That's the point. She doesn't have to be aiming to destroy it. Point is, Kabuto knew this and had her use it in the mist because it can't destroy the mist. Why would Kishi have a fire style user using fire style in the mist if it could destroy it? Heavily implied it's useless from what we've seen. This would just be me going round circles.

You said Madara didn't use fire style because he was toying with them??

Itachi can trap him in a genjutsu without eye contact???

Rinnegan doesn't see chakra??? What?

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The Sakura being able to see him is completely different especially when he ran..He appeared behind her in that same scan without her noticing. Not when he can make it thicker to a point where thousands of Jounins and Chuunins couldn't see a thing.

Naruto using multiple shadow clones as a genin doesn't mean Itachi can automatically do the same when a Chuunin Kiba could use one clone but not more than one. Once again, show a scan. Debates go by feats.

You talk about genjutsu but then again it has been countered over and over again.

A lot of my points were completely ignored. Not that it's a problem but I just prefer to end it here.

 

[LuckyMan]

Nikkah said Itachi can make 1000 clones. Based God needs to come save him.

 

[ATD]

You're wrong, but let's say you're right; it wouldn't matter either way because Itachi ends them both with Genjutsu from the start.

how itachi using genjutsu when he is 45 meters away from team 2 ??
Itachi would beat both 1vs1, but together team 2 is one of the worst match ups against itachi.

 

[LustyLover]

Nikkah said Itachi can make 1000 clones. Based God needs to come save him.

That's not the point I was trying to convey. It's when someone says that an S-Class ninja cannot make more than two clones that I begin to become a bit agitated. Not that it matters. One would be enough to open a hole big enough for him to finish them.

@Evani, if you don't want to debate this I won't make you. And just for the record, I didn't ignore a single thing you said. Just because I can't bring scans of him doing something doesn't mean I can't prove it with other scans as elaborated evidence. If someone else can make a certain amount of clones while possessing less chakra than he does than he can do the same as well at the very least. It's simple logic.

 

[ATD]

That's not the point I was trying to convey. It's when someone says that an S-Class ninja cannot make more than two clones that I begin to become a bit agitated. Not that it matters. One would be enough to open a hole big enough for him to finish them.

@Evani, if you don't want to debate this I won't make you.

Evani has beaten you with well explaied arguments, while your argumantation is not really straight and not convincible.
The reason why you cant accept that team 2 is winning this is because you are stubborn.

you think after the mist is summond itachi easily can blow a hole in it whrere by chance are standing the orginal bodys of kakasi and zabuza, waiting for being put in genjutsu ? thats fanfic !
the war proved that the mist isnt canceld by explisions and itachis explosion clone isnt really that big.

 

[Haizaki]

That's not the point I was trying to convey. It's when someone says that an S-Class ninja cannot make more than two clones that I begin to become a bit agitated. Not that it matters. One would be enough to open a hole big enough for him to finish them.

@Evani, if you don't want to debate this I won't make you.

I said there's no scan of him using more than 2 so why conclude he can use dozens and hundreds?? Matter of fact there's no scan of him using more than 1 if I'm correct. Kiba used 1 but can't use more than that. Nothing implies because he's S rank level, he can use hundreds and dozens. Multiple shadow clones is a technique he has never shown.

Multiple shadow clone is am kinjutsu learned from Fūin no Sho. Only Naruto and Kakashi can use it.

 

[LustyLover]

I said there's no scan of him using more than 2 so why conclude he can use dozens and hundreds?? Matter of fact there's no scan of him using more than 1 if I'm correct. Kiba used 1 but can't use more than that. Nothing implies because he's S rank level, he can use hundreds and dozens. Multiple shadow clones is a technique he has never shown.

Multiple shadow clone is am kinjutsu learned from Fūin no Sho. Only Naruto and Kakashi can use it.

Since you want manga facts, Itachi was able to use a shadow clone to confront Naruto before his fight with Sasuke, use another one to tell Sasuke where he was, and another during their fight. All of this happened in the same day/time period and he showed no signs of chakra strain at all, implying that he can make more. Even if he can't, three is more than enough. I hope you realize that by saying he can't counter the mist you're also saying Zabuza solos Itachi low difficulty. Just really think over that.

 

[Haizaki]

Itachi was able to use a shadow clone to confront Naruto before his fight with Sasuke, use another one to tell Sasuke where he was, and another during their fight. All of this happened in the same day and he showed no signs of chakra strain at all.

That's different from using Multiple. He never used them at the same time.

Multiple shadow clones involve using it at the same time and dividing it equally among the clones. I already showed a scan of Tobirama and Hashirama being able to use high level techniques but still not being able to create more than 2(Tobi) and 6(Hashi)

Btw who says that was a clone confronting Naruto before his fight with Sasuke?
He says I have something important to do...and also gives him some of his powers

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. Don't think a clone would be doing that