-Naruto can summon clones to block Itachi's line of sight.
-Frog song would paralyze Itachi leaving him vulnerable.
-Naruto was able to react to the 3rd Raikage who's faster than Itachi so he can keep up with Itachi at least in a CQC fight.
Because Jiraiya needed a ritual to summon them? People should stop assuming Naruto can do it with a mere summoning jutsu when nothing implies he could. Jiraiya couldn't, Naruto can't.
Which ritual? He required no ritual to summon them. What he was doing is the sage amphibian technique allowing him to summon them directly on his Sage body. It was a different thing than the normal summon. They have the same contract. It would make no sense if you need another ritual to summon them. When Naruto even finished his training, the last part of the training was for Fukazaku to help him to maintain the Sage Mode for longer periods during battles and that's impossible if Naruto couldn't summon them in battle
Re-read what I said. Natural energy has nothing to do with the chakra network, he's simply receiving Nature energy around him, prove this disrupts the flow or concede. Chakra=internal. Senjutsu=External.
I don't get your point to be honest. Both the internal chakra and the external senjutsu are forms of energy
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The Jubi for example is made of natural energy. [
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If you're inside the genjutsu, the chakra in your head is controlled by the opponent, but if he receives an external chakra(in this case natural energy), it will disturb the flow [
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Fukazaku even said adding natural energy in the body creates a complete new and powerful chakra [
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So it being an external chakra coming from the environment actually proves my point in the fact it will break any genjutsu
Katon has demonstrated to have force behind it. Sasuke's Katon dragon broke through a ceiling, this implies that fire, in Naruto physics carries directional force behind it. Hence it is a second hand Futon with less force.
The force behind the katon isn't the point. The fire of the attack usually creates more smoke when it hits the ground, so using katon on the contrary will hide his vision even more
You mean 30% Kakashi? Kabuto is on a different tier, don't even start. It was figurative, just like I won't take your kilometer fall isn't going to be taken seriously (I assumed it was an obvious hyperbole, unless you believe I am stupid enough to think Itachi>Kaguya in clones lml). Itachi can use crow clones which consume less chakra and can change from near unkillable crows, as a whole group of course, to an Itachi clone. This is once again assuming Naruto can somehow use transformation jutsu for Ma and Pa merged on each one of their shoulders, and this Ma and Pa transformation somehow also blinks, speaks, etc.
Against Kakashi, it was 30% in chakra only. All his physical characteristiques and intelligence was the same. Kabuto being in a different tier doesn't make him a better KB user than Kakashi or Naruto and i actually don't even think he is actually in a different tier than them if anything. Whether hyperbole or not, all what i was trying to tell you is how Naruto's clones would be more efficient in this battle against Itachi and regardless of who he is he can be fooled by it, especially considering the sheer number. He isn't Madara who can identify clones from originals
Because he has a sharingan which can sense an incoming jutsu? He can understand that they are aiding Naruto in the fight, and a small amateratsu would completely negate this help? The second they jump he uses it, unless you are willing to claim Amateratsu takes an extremely long time, despite the fact it was implied to have been done at an extreme speed on the toad's stomache. More so, the toads doing this while on Naruto would allow Itachi to know that that is the real Naruto. Never mind actually, Ma and Pa contain a different chakra network as a whole, Itachi should be capable of distinguishing it from one completely connected to Naruto's.
It's not like Edo Itachi(so with regenerative chakra supply) needed time to cast the jutsu [
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Lol, panel time cannot be measured. It's fast, but nigh featless Naraka dodged it. Extremely quick Itachi should be able to as well, given a sharingan, the best reactions in the manga, and extreme speed. Lel, it takes time to prep. Itachi dodges it with little difficulty. Itachi tanks it with little difficulty. I have no reason to believe small needles will bypass a shield like Susano, the basis for this is purely blind faith. v1 tanked Kirin, so even v1 should debatably tank FRS. And nah, FRS requires prep and is extremely chakra consuming. He can't keep it up forever.
Tendo had 5 seconds interval when the jutsu was casted and it reached the otherside the time it went from 5 to 4 seconds
And please stop the wank. We all know people like A, Minato, Tobirama have far better reactions than Itachi, let alone current monsters like Jubi Jinchurikis, Kaguya, current Naruto and so on. Itachi at best has slightly better reactions than Kakashi if any. They have already been compared in this manga on multiple occasions.
Pain barely dodged Rasenshuriken despite shared vision(with one of them dying in the process) and it required a Raikage level of reflexive speed to dodge the jutsu. I greatly doubt Itachi can and if he can it will be barely. Reason why when you add the surprise effect caused by the sudden expansion of the jutsu on the floor, he even has less room, not to mention Naruto can now throw 3 of them at once
Fair enough. Itachi is still far superior to Kakashi in CQC. Itachi is still far quicker than Naruto and Kakashi in CQC. Kakashi's 3T precognition>Naruto's sensing reactive speeds. The only thing Naruto trumps him in is unorthodox fighting style (which itachi has intel on), range (itachi knows of it) and strength. Itachi trumps in reaction speed, speed in general, precognition dojutsu, v1 susano fist surprises (naruto knows).
All i see is fanfiction here. Kakashi and Itachi have been portrayed to be on the same level of Taijutsu [
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And Tendo who is in the same ballpark got merked by SM Naruto [
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Are you saying Naruto's durability over v1 Susano? lml, hopefully you aren't. Naruto gets destroyed either way, you make it seem like that was the Susano's limit, when it didn't even begin to struggle. Tsunade's strength>SM Naruto, she's a normal human. That was inside Naruto's subconscious. Bee even stopped a TBB if I recall correctly, even though in a normal circumstance he would have atomised from within and an explosion would have occurred [
And what's so surprising about it? Even Mei could tank a punch of V3 legged Susanoo. It's not doing shit to a SM Naruto who can survive this [
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Even in the real world, we've seen Hachibi tanking his own formed Bijudama and the Bijudama had a better ratio than the one created by Kyubi there, so what is then surprising? Even in real world, Naruto has been lifting giant Pain summons, throwing them like nothing. Why are you trying to discredit his feats? A smaller Susanoo will receive a similar if not worse treatment than Kyubi
Itachi wins against Pain Arc SM Naruto med difficulty with Genjutsu restricted, low difficulty if it's not, and wins against current SM Naruto med diff at most.
Kakashi and Itachi were both put at a 4.5/5 in taijutsu in the last databook after their part 2 encounter (Same databook where all this yata hype comes from Lol). The 30% chakra clone is meaningless since the clones produce the same bodies. Itachi was able to use 3t genjutsu so there is no reason his sharingan precog/reaction would be any less at that point.
With Naruto's clone abilities and frog Kata Itachi isn't going to be even react properly let alone stand a chance in cqc against SM Naruto.
nice job bogard but i disagree on a lot of points such as itachi having same reflexes as part 1 kakashi.
I firmly disagree.
Itachi have very good reflexes. This was already proven when he was keeping 3t sasuke at bay without much effort( and i should add itachi was not at his prime at that point because of the disease)
And regarding clones,it is possible to detect naruto clones from 3t sharingan :
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I haven't really read arguments of the person you are debating with but this is how i see it.
Battles starts.
*Itachi uses genjutsu.*
*naruto fells for it*
GG
Seriously,until his BM form, his biggest weakness is genjutsu.(only after getting BM he can fight genjutsu)
He wont even get time to summon ma and pa.
Also i would like to add, itachi possess the ability to involve multiple people in genjutsu at a time, so they would not be able to do much even if by a miracle itachi gives naruto a chance to summon them.
Which ritual? He required no ritual to summon them. What he was doing is the sage amphibian technique allowing him to summon them directly on his Sage body. It was a different thing than the normal summon. They have the same contract. It would make no sense if you need another ritual to summon them. When Naruto even finished his training, the last part of the training was for Fukazaku to help him to maintain the Sage Mode for longer periods during battles and that's impossible if Naruto couldn't summon them in battle
Fair enough. Would still mean Naruto has to summon and then fuse with them while Itachi watches. Itachi can initiate his amateratsu, not only catching Naruto off guard, but also making it unavoidable (obviously ma and pa will be near the real Naruto, they aren't merging with a clone).
I don't get your point to be honest. Both the internal chakra and the external senjutsu are forms of energy
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The Jubi for example is made of natural energy. [
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]
If you're inside the genjutsu, the chakra in your head is controlled by the opponent, but if he receives an external chakra(in this case natural energy), it will disturb the flow [
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]
Fukazaku even said adding natural energy in the body creates a complete new and powerful chakra [
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], so regardless if Naruto were caught in a genjutsu, by constantly gathering natural energy, it will disturb the flow
So it being an external chakra coming from the environment actually proves my point in the fact it will break any genjutsu
Again, false. You fail to realise that senjutsu never enters the chakra flow of the body. It is an external form of energy being gathered around Naruto, not in him, which isn't disrupting chakra flow itself. Anyways, I will propose a different argument since this one seems to be going no where. Bad control of your senjutsu makes you turn into stone [
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]. Genjutsu messes up your chakra flow completely [
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][
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]. Itachi was confirmed to be capable of putting many into genjutsu at the same time, hence all 3 of them are put into genjutsu and it's over. Furthermore, if Tsukiyomi is used, it is over. Tsuikyomi isn't ordinary genjutsu, it's considered ninjutsu in the DB and it's an MS technique.
Amidst the insight and hypnosis possessed by Sharingan, is a supreme genjutsu, born from the aforementioned hypnosis: Tsukuyomi. Originally, people on the face of the Earth live bound by limitations like time, gravity, and space; and how people exert their abilities within those restrictions is what separates the victors from the vanquished. But in the mental world where the caster drags their opponent, the Tsukuyomi jutsu gives them control over those very limitations!
Namely, this means inside the genjutsu, the physical world's common sense is completely irrelevant and opposing the caster is impossible. Somebody caught into the Tsukuyomi find themselves into a strange world of infinity, their fate entirely lying inside the caster's hands. Some time, they will undergo the torments of Hell, and some other time, they will be repeatedly shown a horrendous, hellish picture of agony and mayhem*, with no idea of when either of those will end. As a result, the poor prisoner can only wait until the collapse of their psyches...!! Even a body made of iron or the speed of light are powerless before this jutsu, which is the reason why it is feared as the most powerful.
Sharingan is the Kekkei Genkai of the clan labeled as the most powerful, the Uchiha clan. Even among those who have Sharingan, that jutsu cannot be operated without having Mangekyou, which is its culminating point. Concurrently, the only ones who can defeat Tsukuyomi are Sharingan possessors... And even then, exclusively the elite shinobi who have reached particularly high degrees of skillfulness. Once could say this is truly a God-given jutsu solely allowed to those blessed with Uchiha blood and prodigious aptitudes.
DB entry makes it clear it isn't genjutsu, but ninjutsu, and the only way to break out of it is being an Uchiha, with a sharingan and have extreme mastery of it. Naruto, Ma and Pa cannot break out of it no matter what you say. Itachi also told Kakashi he has to be an Uchiha (bloodline limit) to be able to counter the tsukiyomi, thus Perfect jins and any other attempt to disrupt Tsukuyomi is futile.
The force behind the katon isn't the point. The fire of the attack usually creates more smoke when it hits the ground, so using katon on the contrary will hide his vision even more
Please show me why the sharingan is being equated to the rinnegan here. It is superior in this aspect, you may be basing this off of the assumption that the rinnegan couldn't, so the sharingan cannot. That is a mistake, however. Zabuza said Kakashi's sharingan can't notice him because the entire mist is using his chakra, hence there's an identical chakra signature everywhere he looks. Sasuke could tell Deidara's bombs beneath the ground with his sharingan, and that's much thicker than the cloud. The cloud will only be hiding where Ma is, but Naruto and Pa will be present in Itachi's eyes, and it would then be easy to assume Ma's position. So no, using Katon, or any smoke clouds will not effect Itachi. Itachi will take advantage of the smoke cloud being used to cover for Amateratsu and end.
Against Kakashi, it was 30% in chakra only. All his physical characteristiques and intelligence was the same. Kabuto being in a different tier doesn't make him a better KB user than Kakashi or Naruto and i actually don't even think he is actually in a different tier than them if anything. Whether hyperbole or not, all what i was trying to tell you is how Naruto's clones would be more efficient in this battle against Itachi and regardless of who he is he can be fooled by it, especially considering the sheer number. He isn't Madara who can identify clones from originals
Still don't see how he is being fooled by it. Unless he is fast enough to go out of Itachi's 3T sight, it isn't happening. Don't apply other people's feats to Naruto, Naruto has no reason to be assumed of such against a highly advanced Sharingan user. And yes, he isn't Madara, but it will still be easy to insinuate which is the real and which is the fake. Ma and Pa are on Naruto's shoulders and have their own chakra signature. Every other Naruto clone will have his own chakra signature into the transformed (fake) Ma and Pa's.
It's not like Edo Itachi(so with regenerative chakra supply) needed time to cast the jutsu [
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]. Don't act as if the toads are idiots, not to mention sage sensing to prevent any chakra pressure. They can use the dust cloud to block his vision then cast the frog call technique. Problem solved
Lmao, you used the instance in which it took Itachi longest. The only thing this scan implies is that Amateratsu can be stored and used again after some time. He clearly went right through the toad stomach and Jiraiya couldn't do anythign about it [
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], unless you are willing to say Amateratsu can hit a target and recreate itself to proceed and hit another target (which I don't mind tbh).
It's not a question of panel time, but mangafact
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Tendo had 5 seconds interval when the jutsu was casted and it reached the otherside the time it went from 5 to 4 seconds
That's pretty cool. You know what else is cool? Naraka and Deva path dodging [
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]. Say whatever you want, Itachi having precognition while the rinnegan does not, having reaction speed beyond Deva and Naraka, and greater speed to add to that makes it absolutely evident he will dodge it no matter what you say. 1 second crossing the crater is good and all, but it doesn't change the fact this is a manga with incomprehensible speeds in our world, and we should accept the fact someone who can react to lighting and has greater speed than Naraka can dodge an FRS. Even Preta was able to dash to the aid of his ally and absorb an already fired FRS [
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And please stop the wank. We all know people like A, Minato, Tobirama have far better reactions than Itachi, let alone current monsters like Jubi Jinchurikis, Kaguya, current Naruto and so on. Itachi at best has slightly better reactions than Kakashi if any. They have already been compared in this manga on multiple occasions.
Lmao, he reacted to Kirin, which is 1/1000th of a second. I don't see any feats which imply Tobirama or Minato having such massive reaction speeds. Obviously, current Naruto, Sasuke, any Okotsuki would react to this. And lol @ Kakashi being comparable to Itachi's speed. Itachi has never had the intent to kill Kakashi, he was working for the leaf after all, and could have killed Kakashi at any point he chose in there first fight, or even second fight given he used Amateratsu. They were in no way equals. Anyways, Kakashi has gone from a 4 to a 4.5 in db speed. Itachi has always been a 5, this is further evidence Itachi never tried to actually have an all out battle.
Pain barely dodged Rasenshuriken and it required a Raikage level of reflexive speed to dodge the jutsu. I greatly doubt Itachi can and if he can it will be barely. Reason why when you add the surprise effect caused by the sudden expansion of the jutsu on the floor, he even has less room, not to mention Naruto can now throw 3 of them at once
I showed the scan of him dodging. Narak dodged and Deva dodged. All the Pain's had moved, but only 2 were quick enough to escape. None of these Pain's have amazing reflexes, none of these pains have precognition, none of these pains are as fast as Itachi. It should be fairly obvious why Itachi can easily dodge and not have to resort to Susano. And that would completely drain his SM at that particular instance, and have a serious effect on his own chakra since his own chakra isn't infinite like the Senjutu is. Itachi temporarily activates v2 Susano and then deactivates. Problem solved. Kirin destroyed the entire hideout and was tanked by v1 Susano. Naruto in SM can now tank attacks like Kirin? Please tell me you're joking, he can't tank raikiri in base, he is in no way tanking the most powerful Lighting based attack shown in the entire manga. V1 tanks FRS, and I'll just say v2 so that you don't feel the need to begin saying SM>v1 Susano again, because that is laughable. Naruto in KCM was struggling to handle Raikage attacks, and said a clean attack would do lethal damage. V1 Susano tanked Raikage's strongest attacks in v2 with low difficulty.
All i see is fanfiction here. Kakashi and Itachi have been portrayed to be on the same level of Taijutsu [
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And Tendo who is in the same ballpark got merked by SM Naruto. SM Naruto would shit on Itachi in CQC, and that's not even mentioning frog katas that he won't even notice before he gets floored
Again, that was 30% Itachi who was fighting in a body less capable of his. It's like Mike tyson inhabiting a 14 year old's body and saying that he can maintain the same physical capabilities, power, techniques etc. Even Kakashi was beginning to note a difference. Itachi is clearly beyond Kakashi's taijutsu and speed. Yes, Tendo got floored due to Naruto's superior strength. Itachi can avoid these attacks given his precognition and reflexes. Itachi knows all about frog kata, he shouldn't have much difficulty overcoming it with his intelligence, bunshin feints, precognition and speed.
And what's so surprising about it? Even Mei could tank a punch of V3 legged Susanoo. It's not doing shit to a SM Naruto who can survive this [
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Mei has high durability. I have no reason to give someone Mei durability for the lolz. Shattering humans for the lolz [
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doesn't compare to an attack which can crush the ground as it is. A human falling that distance won't be crushed to the point even blood begins to leak. It occurred in Naruto's head, his subconsciousness. It means things can occur which would possibly not happen in real life. I have no reason to assume everything that happens in Naruto's head is applicable in the real shinobi world as well. Wasn't Naruto leaking barrels of ink, enough to fill up the entire sealing location and rise till he would remove the seal? Wasn't Minato also present there after he inserted his chakra, even though he is technically dead? Things that happen there aren't reliable feats, as Bee could transform his hand into his head after somehow stopping a TBB, eating it and preventing any atomisation from happening. Yea...
Even in the real world, we've seen Hachibi tanking his own formed Bijudama and the Bijudama had a better ratio than the one created by Kyubi there, so what is then surprising? Even in real world, Naruto has been lifting giant Pain summons, throwing them like nothing. Why are you trying to discredit his feats? A smaller Susanoo will receive a similar if not worse treatment than Kyubi[/QUOTE]
Doesn't seem like e tanked it, he's lost tails and is completely messed up [
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@Apex well i wanted to reply but you live in the fanfic world where Itachi possess better reactions than Minato, where sharingan precognition is better than rinnengan shared vision, where tsukuyomi is a ninjutsu, so really i don't really want to continue debating this. No wonder you see Itachi winning all those match-ups
@Apex well i wanted to reply but you live in the fanfic world where Itachi possess better reactions than Minato, where sharingan precognition is better than rinnengan shared vision, where tsukuyomi is a ninjutsu, so really i don't really want to continue debating this. No wonder you see Itachi winning all those match-ups
Taking Genjutsu away from Itachi is gimping him pretty bad.
Naruto wins easily given the conditions, Sick Itachi can't fight purely with Ninjutsu for long and Taijutsu is suicide against SM Naruto without some type enhancement.
Naruto himself can sense the chakra build-up, but that won't allow him to evade it. You have to be fast enough to momentarily leave Sasuke's eye sight, as Amateratsu follows whatever the eye is looking at. SM Naruto doesn't have the speed of v2 raiton shroud+shunshin hence he gets hit even if Itachi calls it out 5 minutes earlier.
V2 Raiton Shroud + Shunshin = Dodging Amaterasu without sensory via seeing blood fall down.
Sm Naruto high diff. With Fukasaku and Shima attached to him, any genjutsu is meaningless due to new chakra flowing throughout him the whole battle. It is a form of Kai, which can break genjutsu. But genjutsu is restricted? o-o
V2 Raiton Shroud + Shunshin = Dodging Amaterasu without sensory via seeing blood fall down.
Sm Naruto high diff. With Fukasaku and Shima attached to him, any genjutsu is meaningless due to new chakra flowing throughout him the whole battle. It is a form of Kai, which can break genjutsu. But genjutsu is restricted? o-o
Yea, any genjutsu bar tsukiyomi gets countered. Amateratsu still hits Naruto since Naruto is never out of Itachi's fight, and amateratsu follows whatever Itachi is looking at. And yea, I conceded to the scenario based one, but the non-genjutsu restriction had me going.
