[VS] Itachi vs Minato

[BenjerminGaye]

- I meant there's nothing indicating finger genjutsu is weak, even if you think normal sharingan genjutsu is weak. Madara was able to incapacitate Raikage with sharingan genjutsu.

- Let me make sure I got this right, your implying that if any number of people see a genjutsu medium they are put in a genjutsu? What about sound based genjutsu, if anybody hears the genjutsu they are all in it? I would appreciate it if you did explain to me how it works. I still think your wrong about that, though.

- If Itachi's MS jutsu cost 30% of his chakra, how do you explain Itachi using 5 MS jutsu during the Sasuke fight plus 3 Karasu bunshins, 2 Gokakyu and genjutsu: sharingan?

-Madara had to hold him down with susanno to get a raikage, that was distracted by tsunade's recklessness.

-that's how most genjutsu mediums work. The caster creates a medium that the victim has to fall for. whether that be eye contact, hearing a specific melody, looking at a specific object, being within a certain range. etc etc etc.

-he went past his limit, and died. Pretty simple explanation.

 

[salamander uchiha]

Minato solos neg diff. He just needs to use FTG and it's over, it doesn't matter if Itachi is aware of it. He can't escape the Yellow Flash.

You must be registered for see images

 

[Princess Kaguya]

You must be registered for see images

You only have your fanfic to rely on.

 

[Master Omi]

-Madara had to hold him down with susanno to get a raikage, that was distracted by tsunade's recklessness.

-that's how most genjutsu mediums work. The caster creates a medium that the victim has to fall for. whether that be eye contact, hearing a specific melody, looking at a specific object, being within a certain range. etc etc etc.

-he went past his limit, and died. Pretty simple explanation.

- The point is that Sharingan genjutsu can be strong depending on the user, as Raikage wasn't able to break out of it on his own.

- How do you finger genjutsu is one of those genjutsu that work that way, oppose to being one of the ones that don't?

- Itachi going past his limits doesn't mean he can use an extra 60% chakra (2 extra MS jutsu uses), assuming that MS does cost over 30% of his chakra.

 

[salamander uchiha]

You only have your fanfic to rely on.

Says the person spouting fanfic.:lol

 

[BenjerminGaye]

- The point is that Sharingan genjutsu can be strong depending on the user, as Raikage wasn't able to break out of it on his own.

- How do you finger genjutsu is one of those genjutsu that work that way?

- Itachi going past his limits doesn't mean he can use an extra 60% chakra (2 extra MS genjutsu uses), assuming that MS does cost over 30% of his chakra.

-ems sharingan genjutsu at that.

-because itachi

You must be registered for see links

-it does since the end result is his death. He went past what his body can safely produce and paid the price of his life. Its no different from kakashi saying his limit is 4 raikiri, but when he throws his life to the wind he uses 4 raikiri 1 lightning shadow clone, 1 lightning beast tracking fang, and 2 kamui's. Even part 1 sasuke saw a 150% chakra usage scenario when he went against gaara, using 3 chidori's when his limit is 2, in addition to all the other techs he used that day. I dont see whats hard to believe about it.

 

[Mellanoma]

Clones using genjutsu isn't a reflection of itachi's strength or distance -_- cmon bro. that's like me getting impressed that naruto's clones can use rasengan, a battlefield away.

The capability of controlling two separate chakras is quite a feat. Being a clone i imagine would be more difficult to cast genjutsu as you are essentially halved trying to manipulate someone else chakra. Its not as simple as a clone casting a jutsu to be used.

Itachi genjutsu has the following feats attached:

Real world simulation
Emotional Stress
Mental
Pain

I was going to make a thread about Itachi's indept Genjutsu but to downplay his Genjutsu feats gets me rustled. The guy's genjutsu was WELL beyond any other genjutsu user in the series in terms of application.


When analyzing the list of people duped by his Genjutsu I just don't see Minato fairing any better especially with his World simulation genjutsu. On multiple occasions Itachi realistically made his opponent believe the fight was over by him being easily defeated. Considering Minato MO is quick wins I simply dont see him being convinced he is not in a genjutsu.

Hell it seems every fight the guy is in starts out in a genjutsu world before the actual fight begins as seen with:

Deidara
Orochimaru conversation
Sasuke
Naruto

The fact that he was capable of duping a Sharingan user on multiple occasions convinces me Minato may not realize it soon enough.

 

[BenjerminGaye]

The capability of controlling two separate chakras is quite a feat. Being a clone i imagine would be more difficult to cast genjutsu as you are essentially halved trying to manipulate someone else chakra. Its not as simple as a clone casting a jutsu to be used.

no it isnt when its 2 individual clones controlling 2 individual ppl. :kk::kk: if kakashi makes a shadow clone and the clone travels 10km to put someone in genjutsu its not a distance feat of the original since said clone is still within mere meters of his opponent and said clone is performing the jutsu. The only distance that actually matters in that case is the distance between the clone performing the jutsu and said clone's target.

Now if the clone 10 km from his opponent you'd have a point but seeing as the distance was again mere feet imma need you to cut the malarky.

Itachi genjutsu has the following feats attached:

Real world simulation
Emotional Stress
Mental
Pain

I was going to make a thread about Itachi's indept Genjutsu but to downplay his Genjutsu feats gets me rustled. The guy's genjutsu was WELL beyond any other genjutsu user in the series in terms of application.


When analyzing the list of people duped by his Genjutsu I just don't see Minato fairing any better especially with his World simulation genjutsu. On multiple occasions Itachi realistically made his opponent believe the fight was over by him being easily defeated. Considering Minato MO is quick wins I simply dont see him being convinced he is not in a genjutsu.

Hell it seems every fight the guy is in starts out in a genjutsu world before the actual fight begins as seen with:

Deidara
Orochimaru conversation
Sasuke
Naruto

The fact that he was capable of duping a Sharingan user on multiple occasions convinces me Minato may not realize it soon enough.

Sharingan users don't fall for his tricks if it isn't tsukuyomi. and even then sasuke broke it. But thats not the debate here since minato wont be looking into his eyes to begin with. Thats 101 when it comes to fighting uchiha, the only genjutsu that might even work here is the ones that uses crow as the medium, or the one that uses his finger as the medium.

 

[Mellanoma]

no it isnt when its 2 individual clones controlling 2 individual ppl. :kk::kk: if kakashi makes a shadow clone and the clone travels 10km to put someone in genjutsu its not a distance feat of the original since said clone is still within mere meters of his opponent and said clone is performing the jutsu. The only distance that actually matters in that case is the distance between the clone performing the jutsu and said clone's target.

Now if the clone 10 km from his opponent you'd have a point but seeing as the distance was again mere feet imma need you to cut the malarky.



Sharingan users don't fall for his tricks if it isn't tsukuyomi. and even then sasuke broke it. But thats not the debate here since minato wont be looking into his eyes to begin with. Thats 101 when it comes to fighting uchiha, the only genjutsu that might even work here is the ones that uses crow as the medium, or the one that uses his finger as the medium.

Not all Bunshin work like Shadow or Mokuton clones.

Itachi's crow clone technique is a group of crows clumped together and controlled by the original user. They don't act independently of the owner. He controls them.

HOWEVER for the sake of your argument lets just say they work like a Shadow clone. The point I was making was as a genjutsu user wouldn't it be more difficult to control someone elses chakra as a clone? Casting a jutsu is one thing but casting a genjutsu i imagine would be more difficult as a clone. Genjutsu mechanics were never explained fully so meh

 

[Uverdore9]

Crow clone work seperate from Kage Bunshin. They are real crow gather and given chakra from itachi and cost less chakra than Kage Bunshin. Itachi is the one control that crow clone because Crow clone dont have mind of its own and Itachi has to serve as crow clone mind.

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

Genjutsu is control over a opponent sense. Cast a Ninjutsu is at our own ease but cast a Genjutsu is difficult because Genjutsu must success in control over a opponent sense. If the Genjutsu control isnt strong Opponent'll break Genjutsu which in Itachi case Naruto and Sasuke couldnt.

 

[rinnegan human puppet]

Lol i can never make up my mind about this match up.

 

[Shruikan]

Itachi wrecks.

 

[BenjerminGaye]

Not all Bunshin work like Shadow or Mokuton clones.

Itachi's crow clone technique is a group of crows clumped together and controlled by the original user. They don't act independently of the owner. He controls them.

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

wheres the bold in the databook scan? The only difference is plainly stated, using crows costs less chakra. Furthermore youre right, they don't get the benefit of shadow clones latent abilities. There is no information kickback when the clone disperses, and they don't chave chakra resonance. Secondly shadow clones and wood clones are not the same as well. Wood clones can be allocated less and more chakra on the fly after its already been formed, and can communicate without the clone having to be destroyed. Nothing you posted changes the fact that the clone is the one performing the actions and not the original.

HOWEVER for the sake of your argument lets just say they work like a Shadow clone. The point I was making was as a genjutsu user wouldn't it be more difficult to control someone elses chakra as a clone? Casting a jutsu is one thing but casting a genjutsu i imagine would be more difficult as a clone. Genjutsu mechanics were never explained fully so meh

Seeing as how clones have all the abilities of the original(if chakra permits it) no. I don't see why genjutsu would be harder for clones. The only difficulty would lie in whether or not the clone has enough chakra to perform the jutsu effectively.

 

[Mellanoma]

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

wheres the bold in the databook scan? The only difference is plainly stated, using crows costs less chakra. Furthermore youre right, they don't get the benefit of shadow clones latent abilities. There is no information kickback when the clone disperses, and they don't chave chakra resonance. Secondly shadow clones and wood clones are not the same as well. Wood clones can be allocated less and more chakra on the fly after its already been formed, and can communicate without the clone having to be destroyed. Nothing you posted changes the fact that the clone is the one performing the actions and not the original.





Seeing as how clones have all the abilities of the original(if chakra permits it) no. I don't see why genjutsu would be harder for clones. The only difficulty would lie in whether or not the clone has enough chakra to perform the jutsu effectively.

It states it where it says "The Caster creates a doppelganger of himself by casting his own chakra upon several dozen crows. By using crows as the medium. If he is using crows as the medium then this means they not only comprise of the clone but also they are controlled by him. Or at least that's how I believe it works as well as other members


As for the genjutsu argument concerning clones. I believe genjutsu is more complicated than just having enough chakra to cast it like a normal jutsu. It seems to be a lot more at work but since it was never fully explained I can't argue your opinion with my own.

 

[Ace of the fire fist]

Minato mid diffs Itachi. After the war that discussion ended.

 

[BenjerminGaye]

It states it where it says "The Caster creates a doppelganger of himself by casting his own chakra upon several dozen crows. By using crows as the medium. If he is using crows as the medium then this means they not only comprise of the clone but also they are controlled by him. Or at least that's how I believe it works as well as other members

No, it plainly states that the only benefit to using crows as a medium is chakra conservation. Which makes sense given itachi's reserves. No where in the scan is it implied that he is able to remotely control the clone.

For fcks sake if youre gonna quote it quote the whole damn sentence. The comma is there for a reason. In Fact the only clone type that has the feat of the original controlling then and doing jutsu through them is water clones:

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

You must be registered for see images

You must be registered for see images

You must be registered for see images

As for the genjutsu argument concerning clones. I believe genjutsu is more complicated than just having enough chakra to cast it like a normal jutsu. It seems to be a lot more at work but since it was never fully explained I can't argue your opinion with my own.

Unless there's a stipulation mentioned by the clone type, or too high a chakra cost, then the clone can perform the tech.

 

[BenjerminGaye]

heres a link to FT's post on clone types.

You must be registered for see links

 

[salamander uchiha]

No, it plainly states that the only benefit to using crows as a medium is chakra conservation. Which makes sense given itachi's reserves. No where in the scan is it implied that he is able to remotely control the clone.

Why would Itachi use a clone to conserve chakra which can use his jutsu if he can't direct it? He's better off fighting himself, you'redismissal doesn't have valid reasoning behind it.

 

[BenjerminGaye]

Why would Itachi use a clone to conserve chakra which can use his jutsu if he can't direct it? He's better off fighting himself, you'redismissal doesn't have valid reasoning behind it.

the clone, like all clones act independently -_-
Why wouldn't he use clones to conserve chakra when his chakra levels are known to be shit?

 

[enditallsin]

How many times do we need to go on with this debate..? Minato gives itachi the ass kicking his father should have gave him. Minato rekts itachi mid difficulty at BEST and that's being nice,and NOT trying to strip him of his dignity. At some point the fans are going to have't to accept the fact that itachis a joke.