[VS] Itachi enters the gauntlet

[Strict]

The databook says skilled Sharingan users

Because officially, only Uchiha are Sharingan user. It doesn't count a freak like Kakashi.
Either way, skilled Sharingan user is not a term explicitly defined.
Itachi stated in the Manga (> Databook), that only someone with Sharingan and the Kekkei Genkai can stop Tsukuyomi.

Sorry.

 

[Draegod]

This, nothing more to say.



Smh....as I've said to 3 other people in this same thread. Stop denying manga fact. Itachi already stated that you need to be an Uchiha with Sharingan to break out. Unless I've been reading the wrong manga, and in the correct one Jiraiya and the Jins are all Uchiha with Sharingan, then they can't break free from Tsukuyomi.

We've gone past the point of debating, now people are straight up ignoring manga fact.

Don't feel like readin the entire thread just eyt, but I noticed your Comment. If we were the take Itachi's Quote as "fact" since he stated it, shouldn't you take every other ninja's Quote ever written as fact as well? Now I know you are thinking, "No one has yet to break it that isn't an uchiha etc", But then I would say the same for every other major Quote that is a hyperbole in the manga.

For example, Genjutsu doesn't work on a perfect host quote. It has been rpoven twice to break it out, so why can it not break out of Tsukuyomi? Basically it i Two hype quotes written by Kishi himself. Next, the Bluntsword; According to kishi this Sword destroys even Madara's Perfect Susanoo no Diff no question. I can literally go on and on.

Basically If you are going to take every quote as fact do it for every character equally untill proven wrong, and vice versa. Just stay consistant is what I'm saying. (Not just Directed towards you btw). I can care less if it is unbreakable or not really because there are some ninjas who can take it and keep fighting.

 

[KidGamer65]

Don't feel like readin the entire thread just eyt, but I noticed your Comment. If we were the take Itachi's Quote as "fact" since he stated it, shouldn't you take every other ninja's Quote ever written as fact as well? Now I know you are thinking, "No one has yet to break it that isn't an uchiha etc", But then I would say the same for every other major Quote that is a hyperbole in the manga.

For example, Genjutsu doesn't work on a perfect host quote. It has been rpoven twice to break it out, so why can it not break out of Tsukuyomi? Basically it i Two hype quotes written by Kishi himself. Next, the Bluntsword; According to kishi this Sword destroys even Madara's Perfect Susanoo no Diff no question. I can literally go on and on.

Basically If you are going to take every quote as fact do it for every character equally untill proven wrong, and vice versa. Just stay consistant is what I'm saying. (Not just Directed towards you btw). I can care less if it is unbreakable or not really because there are some ninjas who can take it and keep fighting.

I'll agree that if it weren't for the time limit, the partner method will work, based on Bogard's post, but I disagree with your reasoning, which is basically saying that Itachi's statement is hyperbole, when its not. Tsukuyomi wasn't described in a way that makes it seem like it has no limits, so how is it a hyperbole? All your hyperbole examples don't fit here.

Every Ninja's non hyperbolic quote, should be taken as fact, unless there is another reason not to take it as fact.

 

[Bogard]

Because officially, only Uchiha are Sharingan user. It doesn't count a freak like Kakashi.
Either way, skilled Sharingan user is not a term explicitly defined.
Itachi stated in the Manga (> Databook), that only someone with Sharingan and the Kekkei Genkai can stop Tsukuyomi.

Sorry.

Or because Itachi lacked knowledge? A counter-argument can easily be made

1- Itachi could have never known a non-Uchiha could reach a high degree of skilfulness with the Sharingan allowing him to break his genjutsu like a normal Uchiha could. He was even surprised a non-Uchiha can master his Sharingan to that extent in part1, let alone his other surprise in Shippuden when he thought it was impossible for Kakashi to have awakened the mangekyou

2- Itachi never confronted all the Naruto populace, so it's safe to assume he got his info from the tablet, something falsified by BZ

 

[Strict]

Danzo stole Shisui's MS so he considered to possibility of a non-Uchiha possessing the MS. Itachi's statement was clear, wasn't it? He said, only someone with Sharingan and the Kekkei Genkai can stop Tsukuyomi. And this statement was never disproven thus far, so anything else is just opinion. Biased opinion. You ascribe Itachi lack of knowledge for no reason to suit your argument. Kishimoto had no reason to speak through Itachi with a lack of knowledge at this point. It's just your attempt to find a weak point of Tsukuyomi.

 

[Draegod]

I'll agree that if it weren't for the time limit, the partner method will work, based on Bogard's post, but I disagree with your reasoning, which is basically saying that Itachi's statement is hyperbole, when its not. Tsukuyomi wasn't described in a way that makes it seem like it has no limits, so how is it a hyperbole? All your hyperbole examples don't fit here.

Every Ninja's non hyperbolic quote, should be taken as fact, unless there is another reason not to take it as fact.

It takes about a Second or less to poke bee and dispell him. Is that not fact and thus Counter the Uchiha hype? It has literally been proven in the manga against two uchihas (whether it was Basic genin genjutsu or Frog song doesnt matter, it was proven). I'm basically Saying Kishi Contradicted himself in a much later updated Chapter to discredit his Part one hype in a sense.

Nothing has Discredited the Bee hype in a sense, or the Bluntsword hype and a shit load of other hype really. It is just a matter of believing what you choose to believe and disregarding the rest. Because in actuality Tsukuyomi is still a "Genjutsu", and not a higher form of chakra manipulation that is beyond Ninjutsu, Genjutsu and Taijutsu.

 

[SasoriOfTheRedSaand]

NINJUTSU; KEKKEI GENKAI; Tsukuyomi
User: Uchiha Itachi
Supplementary; Close range; Rank: none

Main text

Amidst the insight and hypnosis possessed by Sharingan, is a supreme genjutsu, born from the aforementioned hypnosis: Tsukuyomi. Originally, people on the face of the Earth live bound by limitations like time, gravity, and space; and how people exert their abilities within those restrictions is what separates the victors from the vanquished. But in the mental world where the caster drags their opponent, the Tsukuyomi jutsu gives them control over those very limitations!

Namely, this means inside the genjutsu, the physical world's common sense is completely irrelevant and opposing the caster is impossible. Somebody caught into the Tsukuyomi find themselves into a strange world of infinity, their fate entirely lying inside the caster's hands. Some time, they will undergo the torments of Hell, and some other time, they will be repeatedly shown a horrendous, hellish picture of agony and mayhem*, with no idea of when either of those will end. As a result, the poor prisoner can only wait until the collapse of their psyches...!! Even a body made of iron or the speed of light are powerless before this jutsu, which is the reason why it is feared as the most powerful.

Sharingan is the Kekkei Genkai of the clan labelled as the most powerful, the Uchiha clan. Even among those who have Sharingan, that jutsu cannot be operated without having Mangekyou, which is its culminating point. Concurrently, the only ones who can defeat Tsukuyomi are Sharingan possessors... And even then, exclusively the elite shinobi who have reached particularly high degrees of skillfulness. Once could say this is truly a God-given jutsu solely allowed to those blessed with Uchiha blood and prodigious aptitudes.

Confirmed by manga [

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]. People trying to use the partner method to escape Tsukuyomi is straight lunacy. Not only does the Genjutsu last a mere second, but Kakashi, who was accompanied by Sakura, Chiyo and Naruto warned them of Tsukuyomi's inescapable properties [

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]. If the partner method was usable, then he would of used it in that situation. Instead, he hid underground and waited for Naruto's clone (mitigates Genjutsu) to provide an opening. Lets stop being stupid and just face the facts.

 

[Kamui Sama]

debatable if he stops at 1 but he is not beating Minato for sure. Also KA gg is not out of the equation

 

[Bogard]

Danzo stole Shisui's MS so he considered to possibility of a non-Uchiha possessing the MS. Itachi's statement was clear, wasn't it? He said, only someone with Sharingan and the Kekkei Genkai can stop Tsukuyomi. And this statement was never disproven thus far, so anything else is just opinion. Biased opinion. You ascribe Itachi lack of knowledge for no reason to suit your argument. Kishimoto had no reason to speak through Itachi with a lack of knowledge at this point. It's just your attempt to find a weak point of Tsukuyomi.

It was never disproven simply because it was only used one time in the entire manga against a non-Uchiha and that happened a decade ago. It's just like Naruto said if you get hit by Amaterasu, you're done for. Now we clearly see how easy counters are created for the jutsu even when it hits a target simply because it's much more used on panel. I'm pretty sure it would have happened the same for tsukuyomi if it was still used at this stage. It's like the legendary weapons Itachi fans use as an argument for his invincibility simply because his only feat is to counter paper bombs Lol Itachi never fought Danzo. For all we know, he may not have known Danzo could master his MS just like he thought it was impossible for Kakashi to master his Sharingan. You talk about Kishimoto, yet you ignore his databook

Sharingan is the Kekkei Genkai of the clan labelled as the most powerful, the Uchiha clan. Even among those who have Sharingan, that jutsu cannot be operated without having Mangekyou, which is its culminating point. Concurrently, the only ones who can defeat Tsukuyomi are Sharingan possessors... And even then, exclusively the elite shinobi who have reached particularly high degrees of skillfulness.

Talk about being biased?

 

[Strict]

And who says that the Databook doesn't mean Uchiha only? Only Uchiha are Sharingan possessors and even among them, high skills are required. Kakashi was the only known non Uchiha at this time who got the Sharingan on an unnatural way. The man who copied 1000 Jutsu with the Sharingan failed against Tsukuyomi. The statement of the Databook isn't accurate, Itachi's statement is. Itachi distinguished between Sharingan and Mangekyo Sharingan. Itachi, who revealed his Mangekyo Sharingan, could have said that you need the Mangekyo Sharingan as well to counter this Genjutsu. But he didn't say you need the Mangekyo Sharingan. He said you need, apart from the Sharingan Uchiha blood.

So stop deny the damn facts from the Manga. It's a difference to counter a technique or avoid it, or trying to handle it once you are hit by it. Surely you can avoid being caught in it, but Manga stated that you need Sharingan and Uchiha blood to break it.

 

[scorezor]

damn ... he wins against everyone , Lol.

 

[Dęvîa Puęrî]

Genjutsu effects the Chakra flow. What a Bijuu does is disturb the flow of Chakra to wake up the Jinchuuriki. Therefore, Genjutsu is useless against Jinchuuriki whether it's normal or Tsukuyomi. Source - Killer Bee's statement. I suggest you go back to school or get a private teacher to school 2nd grade English. Do you get this extremely simple, basic information? Probably not.​

why all the insults it isnt tht serious ur talking as if u r above him when u dont know him its the internet and a topic on anime characters u dnt determine someones intellegence through a debate about anime powers :|

 

[Bogard]

And who says that the Databook doesn't mean Uchiha only? Only Uchiha are Sharingan possessors and even among them, high skills are required. Kakashi was the only known non Uchiha at this time who got the Sharingan on an unnatural way. The man who copied 1000 Jutsu with the Sharingan failed against Tsukuyomi. The statement of the Databook isn't accurate, Itachi's statement is. Itachi distinguished between Sharingan and Mangekyo Sharingan. Itachi, who revealed his Mangekyo Sharingan, could have said that you need the Mangekyo Sharingan as well to counter this Genjutsu. But he didn't say you need the Mangekyo Sharingan. He said you need, apart from the Sharingan Uchiha blood.

So stop deny the damn facts from the Manga. It's a difference to counter a technique or avoid it, or trying to handle it once you are hit by it. Surely you can avoid being caught in it, but Manga stated that you need Sharingan and Uchiha blood to break it.

I'm not denying mangafacts. It's just that i'm like Itachi or Obito, someone who believes every jutsu possess a weak-point and the manga doesn't disprove my assumptions, especially when the databook is there to help my conclusions, so why should i not bring that up?

 

[Dęvîa Puęrî]

Well sh*t, Edo tensei soloes

But is Orochimaru's vision closed with distance?

Because he can pull that KA crap too, which has no limitations

oro by now should know not to look into uchia eyes lmfao

also in order for ka to be available naruto needs to be in battle field which hes not lol cuz thts last place he had it also if we r going by current feats itachi needs to wait 10 years to use it

 

[Dęvîa Puęrî]

The exception proves the rule. Obito also controlled a perfect Jinchuriki. Normally, Bijuu free their host from a Genjutsu after realizing it like an ordinary partner. The Jinchuriki gets caught in a Genjutsu and experiences its effect, until his Bijuu disturbs his Chakra flow and frees him.

Tsukuyomi is such an exception. Bee is right, when he says that, in order to break a Genjutsu, you need a partner who distrubs your Chakra flow and snaps you out of it, which in this case is his Bijuu. But, the exception of Tsukuyomi was stated in the Manga:

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Genjutsu do affect Jinchuriki, their Bijuu just snap them out. As Tsukuyomi is, as stated by Kakashi, is instant, partner tactics won't work. Naruto also warned Bee from Tsukuyomi, despite he is a Jinchuriki.

was stated yagura didnt have 3 tails inside of him i could be wrong tho

 

[Strict]

I'm not denying mangafacts. It's just that i'm like Itachi or Obito, someone who believes every jutsu possess a weak-point and the manga doesn't disprove my assumptions, especially when the databook is there to help my conclusions, so why should i not bring that up?

Because, as I said, the Databook is inaccurate and more based on hype.

Who is meant by Sharingan possessors? Only Uchiha as they are the natural possessors of the Sharingan, or does this include Kakashi as well? The databook says, that even among the possessors of the Sharingan, only those who are very skilled, can break Tsukuyomi. Kakashi was a skilled user of the Sharingan. Do we agree that Kakashi mastered the Tomoe Sharingan as a non Uchiha, as he was able to copy 1000 Jutsu? Why did he nevertheless failed to break Tsukuyomi? Itachi talked about his Mangekyo Sharingan. Why didn't he say that you need the Mangekyo Sharingan to resist his own MS, why did he explicitly said that the Sharingan is not enough, but also Uchiha blood is required? He explicitly said Sharingan + Kekkei Genkai, not Mangekyo Sharingan.

To put it in a nutshell, Kakashi mastered the Sharingan for his standards (copying 1000 Jutsu) but nevertheles failed, because he, according to Itachi, lacked Uchiha blood. Sasuke had the Uchiha blood and he broke the Genjutsu with 3 Tomoe.

Well. In the end we agree to disagree as always.

 

[Phonas]

Someone of you are not getting the mechanics of a time-controlled, 1 second, instant Tsukuyomi:

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^As you can conspicuously see, Kakashi was never in the genjutsu for 72 hours straight. He merely felt 72 hours worth of torture. Think of it this way: If I've been collecting comic books for 10 years, and then decide to stack them all up and dump it on my friends' back, my friend would not literally go through 10 consecutive years of comic book collecting and feel the the back pain in that matter. He would have just felt 10 years "worth" of comics stacked upon each other. In essence, you can't escape an instant Tsukuyomi, because time doesn't really exist, in a sense.

 

[Bogard]

Because, as I said, the Databook is inaccurate and more based on hype.

Who is meant by Sharingan possessors? Only Uchiha as they are the natural possessors of the Sharingan, or does this include Kakashi as well? The databook says, that even among the possessors of the Sharingan, only those who are very skilled, can break Tsukuyomi. Kakashi was a skilled user of the Sharingan. Do we agree that Kakashi mastered the Tomoe Sharingan as a non Uchiha, as he was able to copy 1000 Jutsu? Why did he nevertheless failed to break Tsukuyomi? Itachi talked about his Mangekyo Sharingan. Why didn't he say that you need the Mangekyo Sharingan to resist his own MS, why did he explicitly said that the Sharingan is not enough, but also Uchiha blood is required? He explicitly said Sharingan + Kekkei Genkai, not Mangekyo Sharingan.

To put it in a nutshell, Kakashi mastered the Sharingan for his standards (copying 1000 Jutsu) but nevertheles failed, because he, according to Itachi, lacked Uchiha blood. Sasuke had the Uchiha blood and he broke the Genjutsu with 3 Tomoe.

Well. In the end we agree to disagree as always.

Part1 Kakashi already self-admitted he doesn't control his Sharingan well [

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]. There are many aspects in the Sharingan. The analyse and copy of ninjutsu techniques, the analyse and counters for genjutsus and so on. The fact Kakashi could copy techniques doesn't prove he was that good in countering genjutsus in part1 for example

Let's put things in their context, will you? When the databook says only Sharingan users could counter tsukuyomi, it was a general statement. It didn't take into consideration who possess Sharingan or not. Were Uchihas still alive when that statement was made? Nope. So why were they counted then? Simply because it's a general statement, just like the number of non-Uchihas with Sharingans had nothing to do with the description of the jutsu as well. Why did he go in the trouble to say only Sharingan users when he could have easily said Uchihas and called it a day?

 

[Phonas]

Anyway, Itachi takes everyone out with genjutsu, except for EMS Sasuke and Nagato. The latter two will lose via a Totsuka stab + Yata Mirror.

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[Strict]

Well, I have no reason to doubt Itachi's statement. As it is more accurate and Manga statements are > Databook, since the Databook uses a hyperbolic phrase. When Itachi explicitly says that Uchiha blood is needed, I have no reason to doubt it unless this statement was disproven. And p.s., a non Uchiha will never perfect the Doujutsu like an Uchiha would. He activated the MS as a child synchronous with Obito and learned it to use during the time skip. Sharingan =/= Mangekyo Sharingan, I hope you are aware of it. Kakashi wasn't perfect in using the Sharingan; learning to use the Mangekyo Sharingan doesn't make his use of the normal Sharingan perfect. Another question would be, what would Kakashi's MS change? The Mangekyo doesn't boost the ability to see through Genjutsu.

Itachi's statement, that you couldn't cast a Genjutsu on someone with the same eyes is just a mistranslation which doesn't even make sense, because in fact, Genjutsu already were cast on opponents with the same eyes. Itachi actually said that Izanami doesn't affect your regular 5 senses, as you couldn't cast Genjutsu on an Inzanagi user through eye sight - what is logical, since the user loses his eye sight.