Well you are right that it's not the best comparison...but leaders/politicians are just humans as well...from that aspect, I think that when Erdogan is forcing his agenda based on his personal beliefs, that's not much different from the mentality of the average muslim, it's just that the former gains power and legitimacy from the masses of the latter. But that's the point, it's more about personal beliefs, which do not necessarily represent sharia. Of course, sometimes they do; but sometimes it's just an excuse.
I don't deny though that executing someone for blasphemy is an aspect of sharia, at least according to traditional interpretations- but it's still not the same as demanding sharia to be implemented altogether (not that there exists a universal consensus regarding what exactly are the rules of sharia and how to apply them). And I know there are demands like that too, though mostly the demand is pertaining to the muslim community demanding it, not the whole host society, that is, they don't necessarily demand sharia for the whole host country, just their own communities... and in any case, this demand technically is not different from Western countries expecting muslim countries to accept democracy and the Western concept of human rights: of course there is a big difference between demanding someone to be executed for let's say homosexuality, and to demand the opposite: but technically both are about forcing foreign ideas, sometimes with less impetus, sometimes more violently. Another difference is that Western countries are more tolerant about backwards muslims, while traditional muslim countries will just silence the progressives/reformists. But it's undeniable that as long as countries like the US play best buddies with countries like Saudi Arabia, and sell weapons to them (and let's not forget that the biggest weapon exporters are members of the UN Security Council: USA, Russia, China, France), they do have a responsibility for whatever happens in those countries. I don't think it's shifting the blame. The 'average Joe muslim' (lol) will hate the US for screwing up their countries, and it's kinda understandable. I agree it doesn't justify, say, killing caricaturists...but this specific protest, seems to me to be more about the usual manifestation of hatred towards the West, than demanding sharia or something like that. Also, as long as the US's best buddy Saudi Arabia can finance radical preachers even in Europe, no wonder that many muslims get radicalized. So, I don't mean to shift the blame, but to say that the West hasn't played and is not playing into the hands of the radicals, would also be inaccurate.
Not to mention that even government representatives are affected by their own ideas: when Bush was talking about God telling him to go to war, now how can you separate that from government actions? I only wanted to point out that whatever an average person or even a leader says or does, that's not necessarily representative of an ideology- at best, only its personal interpretation. Or else I could conclude that democracy is also about killing people, coz that's how it's exported by the US.
But yeah we were talking about this specific protest...and yeah demanding the head of the makers of the video can be considered backwards, but it's not exactly about demanding sharia, especially not for Japan, and apart from that, I'd handle the demand for banning the video as a separate issue. If they only protested for the ban, noone should really complain about such a protest, as 1) they are free to do so, 2) the movie they were protesting against is really distasteful and is meant only to provoke muslims.
Actually, that's exactly what they want. To conquer their host countries in the sense of; it having to apply muslim law in their non-muslim countries. Look at britain, look at belgium, france, etc. There have been plenty of marches and appeals to realize just that. Here's a 2 minute interview with a typical muslim youth. The type that flocked my neighbourhood and still does. They won't always be honest about it but when they do, you'll hear this: [video=youtube;w0bOi5dF37M]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w0bOi5dF37M[/video]
At bold2:
I'm going to have to use the hand break on this one. If you've been on this forum long enough, you'd know that when it comes to terrorism, I am always in defense of the muslims. I'm well aware of the fact that u.s.a. created, supplied and dispatched mercenaries under the banner of islamic jihadists to create order out of chaos. But in no way, in no way does that justify the cancer that is the value pattern and traditions that the middle-easterners bring to Europe. If anything, they were WELCOMED in most European countries. We welcomed them with open arms. Only to have them leech on welfare, disrespect women and non-muslims, aggressively shut up anyone that dared question their faith, and blabla the list goes on. I grew up in the middle of it, I'd know.
To get to the point; No government told them to go about invading the western judeo-christian countries to hunt their women and demand nice houses as if they had a right to it. Which is what happened and is still happening. You won't in any way be able to win that discussion. The average european citizen has nothing to do with the tragedies occuring in the middle-east. You have the governments to thank for that. But, it's very typical for the average muslim to shift blame whilest ignoring the aggressor in the mirror.
(I mention judeo-christian but I couldn't give two sh1ts about that personally. It's just that it is of relevance to the grander scheme behind the muslim invasion of europe)
I'm from Holland/The Netherlands. Where we received ''refugees'' with open arms only to have them complain about the food and shelter whilest they later on, receive free welfare. Not to mention the amount of rape attempts and the latest actual rape, about 40 minutes away from my town. A 17 year old girl got pulled off her bicycle close to a refugee camp and scarred for life. This happened a month ago.
''racist'' and ''xenophobe'' are words used by braindead simpletons denying that which does not suit their opinion.
If i make a movie that destroy the face of your country what do you do ? If i say your countrymen are killer lier and .... what do you do ?
Every religion has its low . In islam in some condition ( like killing a person on purpos or insult our prophet ) have execution ( hanging ) as punishment .it is our right to want to stop harmfull behavor against us .
the protest IS peaceful,isn't it?....and u would demand the head of someone who made a ridiculous movie about a person u love the most in the world,too...if u truly love that person,that is!
You are not doing yourself any favours with such asinine comments. Demanding is all right, as long as it doesn't mean stopping the products others enjoy. For instance, I don't like certain preservatives in a certain product. Now, I won't demand to end its supply altogether. I would suggest to supply a product that meets my demands as well.
That is how it works. It shouldn't be a "my way or the highway" route.
I honestly couldn't care less for the king of the Netherlands. That dabbing leech got his daughters a million euros of allowance PER YEAR for when they (his daughters) turn 18. And ofcourse, we common paycheck slaves pay for that.
You can say whatever you want. It's called freedom of speech. We western people are generally mentally above the delusional sense of pride. Or you'd have to be hardcore christian. But those are generally quiet over here.
Every religion has its low . In islam in some condition ( like killing a person on purpos or insult our prophet ) have execution ( hanging ) as punishment .it is our right to want to stop harmfull behavor against us .
Actually, that's exactly what they want. To conquer their host countries in the sense of; it having to apply muslim law in their non-muslim countries. Look at britain, look at belgium, france, etc. There have been plenty of marches and appeals to realize just that. Here's a 2 minute interview with a typical muslim youth. The type that flocked my neighbourhood and still does. They won't always be honest about it but when they do, you'll hear this: [video=youtube;w0bOi5dF37M]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w0bOi5dF37M[/video]
Ehm I have several remarks and objections to make, if you have the patience to continue. I'll just say it nonetheless, after all it's a discussion forum. But first of all, note that I never denied that such people and demands exist, I specifically said above that I'm aware of that phenomenon. Secondly, I live on this planet too you see, I've heard/read about Britain, Belgium, France- although it's been more than a decade since I last visited them. (I was not so impressed by the way, Tunisia and Egypt were more fun, of all the foreign countries I visited, but obviously living in the latters would be another question. Now obviously for a muslim it's not so bad. That said, it's also obvious that the best would be if everyone could just live peacefully and flourish in the country they were born into- but we don't live in an ideal world).
Also, note how you've managed to list 3 of the major colonizer powers of recent past (you could add Germany too, and your country the Netherlands is not much of an exception either in that regard). So the question that comes prior to what the hell are these muslims doing and demanding in said countries, is what the hell were the British, Belgians, French, Dutch and Germans doing in their countries? One could argue that they were spreading technology, science, and democracy, and there is truth in it, but noone is that naive to buy that altogether. (But to be fair, it's not like the locals have no responsibility, as far as some of them collaborated with the conquerors; but see, that's still the same today). This will/would lead us quite off topic, but the point is, we don't live in an ideal world, people have been conquering each other since the dawn of mankind, there is nothing new to it: and of course I'm not saying that this shouldn't be fought and tried to be changed, but you can't put an end to history and evolution. Drawing some imaginary borders on a piece of paper and trying to keep people behind those lines, is at best just an attempt to apply divide et impera in modern times, at worst, it's like building huge concentration camps. Because some countries are really not much better than a concentration camp. In short, I could describe the process from the following aspect: it's common sense that resources are limited. In classic economics, there are 3 production factors: land, labour, and capital. I should add innovation as a fourth in this modern era. Most muslim countries were exploited in regard of natural resources, and they were tricked into a spiral of debt, confining their access to capital and leverage. Oil is a temporal solution for those lucky to have it, but again, when countries like Saudi Arabia use the income from oil to support radicals, then I wouldn't blame children that at the local mosque in say, Amsterdam, they are taught bulls*t by a wahabi teacher financed form SA. Why does your country allow it? But back to the main stream of my reasoning...as most muslim countries are short on natural resources, capital and they are poor at innovation, they only have the labourforce: masses of uneducated people. If they can't make a living in the country they were born into, you can't really blame them for trying their luck abroad: illegally or not, is irrelevant from this aspect. From such masses, simply statistically speaking there will be high chances that some or many people are or will be criminals. Are they to be excused? Of course not. Punish them. If they rape your women? Execute them ,I don't mind. If your leaders are incompetent, change them, make a revolution, or whatever. But sharing videos which only raise misplaced anger and hatred, won't help; it will turn the common folks against each other, common muslims and non-muslims. While the leaders are laughing their asses off. The point is, the host societies have a responsibility of whom and how tehy let in...and how much integratory power they can assert. You can't really blame muslims that they have a higher fertility rate (which is not even that high in Europe, it's barely above 2 in average, which is just enough to maintain growth- the problem is that it's still double compared to that of European women), it's not muslims' fault that European women don't care about giving birth. It leads us back to the labourforce factor. That's the only thing muslims can use in the short run to compete in the globalized world. If you can't educate them, either because of lack of infrastructure or personnel, or simply because most people just don't have what it takes to become, say, engineers or medics, well, then you have to achieve either that they reduce reproduction, or create ways to allocate masses of uneducated labor force throughout the planet more efficiently. Which is in the interest of certain corporations, and profit knows no borders. Of course it will raise conflicts between the newcomers and the natives...and I haven't made calculations, not that I alone could do such a survey...but I'm sure the companies have calculated with the cost of social conflicts and the profit from cheap labor...and probably the latter outdoes the former, so it's worth for them. The common folk (you,I) will be screwed but don't blame the river for flowing over its bank after a heavy rain, and flooding the lands around...You say noone is forcing them to do so, I say (notwithstanding that as sentient beings, we all have a responsibility, whether we are forced or not) there are certain social laws that can't be ignored here, and humans have been obeying, albeit sometimes unconsciously, these laws since ancient times. Just because now you and I can put a screen between us, it doesn't mean that average Joe1 and average Joe2 won't blow each other's skull on the streets of say, Brasilia. So, to me it seems kinda natural that muslims will use basically the only factor they can leverage: their numbers. Masses that can precisely exploit the paradoxes of democracy: if they will be the majority, it's only democratic that they, the majority will take over and dictate the law. There are 3 ways to fight it: 1) educate them/ teach them the advantages of secularism (if it does have any), 2) try to reduce their reproduction and/or increase that of the natives, 3) don't let any more in. And of course all 3 can be combined. The last 2 is racist and against current European laws...and education doesn't always work, especially if muslims know that all they have to do is be patient and sooner or later they'll be the majority, so why would they bother adopting your values...Note, though, that most of these 'Eurabia' calculations are off the charts, they won't take over in 2-3 decades, maybe in 1-2 hundred years...if there will be mankind by then at all...But yeah it's true it's enough if they take over some key cities and then the fun will begin. So you'd be better off just taking the leaders first, and change the laws which allow basically anyone to stay now.
So notice how I'm not on the opposite side...am a muslim ,but I'm not interested in letting in uneducated masses who only claim they are muslim, while they are drinking alcohol, raping women..etc. That's not islamic. I don't want such people here either.
As for the video specifically, although I've kind of already addressed it, but I think you'll understand if I as a skeptic take that with a grain of salt. Even if you'd dig up a thousand such videos, now that would be representative statistically speaking, but I still couldn't be sure about the authenticity of the methodology...I can't know if they are manipulated, if the interviewees are selected randomly or not...etc. I'll take it for granted now, just to proceed with the discussion. However, I'm sure you'll agree that a kid kinda can't be blamed for having stupid parents, for having been raised in a fanatic/radical household. And as an expert said at a lecture I listened to, if the country's education system can't teach them in 12 years that they shouldn't rape women and shouldn't blow people up, then there is a problem with the education system too. It's the host country's responsibility too. It's not shifting the blame, just stating that we are talking about a complex phenomena here, a dice which the host society and the immigrants are also sides of.
Another problem is, as I've already touched on it, is that in islam, loyalty and social cohesion are primarily based on religious affiliation, not race/ethnicity or nationality. Thus, muslims, especially someone who was raised abroad, simply won't get the idea of ethno-nationalism and nationstates. Or, even if they do coz let's say they come from a place where they take national pride in their country, then obviously they won't just change their national identity- and no way they'll change their religious identity. So they don't understand why couldn't they, say, marry more women, or why couldn't they just pass borders. Especially if someone is from a rural, tribal area. Why do they still come to Europe? Well many of them come because they are actually invited. Some are invited because they are educated, some are invited exactly because they are not educated so they can serve as cheap labor force. They come because they want a better life for themselves and their kids. Some come from war-torn areas. Etc. Most of them are just trying to thrive peacefully, but of course many of them just can't handle the differences. If they have a good job, for a while that will compensate for their social deprivation and frustration. But eventually, if they feel it's not worth them anymore, they'll turn to radical means to compensate. Social power is much dependant on the variable of the number of a certain class or cluster: if muslims can't achieve via political negotiations to have the rights they'd have in muslim countries, they'll use their numbers to exert power and increasing it will obviously giving them more power in a society which is based on democracy, that is the rule of the majority. You can't really blame them for using the weak points of the system to their own gains: in a world which is dictated by the superpowers, and muslim countries are mostly losers in the process we call globalisation. So instead of going home to the sh*thole they came from, they'll try to leverage their numbers where they are. Of course it doesn't excuse average Joe3 for raping average Jane...I'm just talking from a more grand perspective.
Anyway, the kids in the video could barely even express themselves properly, I highly doubt they knew what they were talking about, so I wouldn't take them that seriosuly...they just have a big mouth. Of course you can spam videos with adults too...but as long as it's just speech, well, if I took seriosuly every idiot, comments of whom I see on the internet, threatening me and muslims in general...well, I'd already have closed myself up in the cellar, frightened.
Also, they didn't demand sharia for your country. They were just asking people to convert to islam, they didn't threaten them that they'd kill them otherwise. And they just said that the way women dress there, is not good. I don't think this video is that terrifying, to be honest.
At bold2:
I'm going to have to use the hand break on this one. If you've been on this forum long enough, you'd know that when it comes to terrorism, I am always in defense of the muslims. I'm well aware of the fact that u.s.a. created, supplied and dispatched mercenaries under the banner of islamic jihadists to create order out of chaos. But in no way, in no way does that justify the cancer that is the value pattern and traditions that the middle-easterners bring to Europe. If anything, they were WELCOMED in most European countries. We welcomed them with open arms. Only to have them leech on welfare, disrespect women and non-muslims, aggressively shut up anyone that dared question their faith, and blabla the list goes on. I grew up in the middle of it, I'd know.
To get to the point; No government told them to go about invading the western judeo-christian countries to hunt their women and demand nice houses as if they had a right to it. Which is what happened and is still happening. You won't in any way be able to win that discussion. The average european citizen has nothing to do with the tragedies occuring in the middle-east. You have the governments to thank for that. But, it's very typical for the average muslim to shift blame whilest ignoring the aggressor in the mirror.
(I mention judeo-christian but I couldn't give two sh1ts about that personally. It's just that it is of relevance to the grander scheme behind the muslim invasion of europe)
Well I'm sure MOST of them are not thieves, rapists or murderers...etc. I can prove it with statistics, if you insist. Although I understand your frustration, as the Netherlands is indeed one of the few countries where immigrants commit most of the crimes. If my memory serves, 60%. Note though that not all immigrants are muslim. And it goes without saying that the number of criminals is usually still little compared to the non-criminals within a cluster. Maybe except for Afro-Americans in the US, I've heard that 1 out of 3 black men is charged with a crime during his lifetime. Or something like that. That raises the question of racism and bias from the authority's part though, but I'm no expert and I don't mean to debate with the Americans here. And I didn't mean to offend anyone.
@bold: I hope it's just a catchphrase of yours, but I didn't take our discussion as a contest to win...as you can see, I agree with you on many points. You just misunderstood my intentions, I didn't want to shift or deny any blame, but I think the proportion of the blame is always debatable, and the responsibility of the West is also a commonplace.
I'd also like to elaborate on the 'patterns they import' part a little more...Well, first of all, what else you expected? From Africa, the Middle-East and Asia they can only bring African, Middle-Eastern and Asian patterns of behavior, and this still needs further detailing, because actually some of the things these young men do here, they couldn't do in their home countries. I guess it's obvious that in a muslim country, they'd be in trouble for drinking alcohol, or they wouldn't harass a fully covered woman on the streets of say, Riyadh. While I called much of the 3rd world as a sh*thole (and again, it's partially a sh*thole because of us the West too), but they are not thaaaat sh*tty, or at least it's not like they can't live normally there. Most of them do. It's always the rotten apples that sore the eye, and always the loud ones that hurt your ears. And that said, as I've already mentioned, as long as people stay in their usual environment, that is, the place they were born in, they usually get along. That's why it'd be ideal if everyone could just stay home. It's because two different and in some aspects, mutually exclusive cultures/peoples meet, that conflicts arise due to misunderstandings, frustration...etc. Let me refer to Bordieu's social capital theory:
For Bourdieu, capital acts as a social relation within a system of exchange, and the term is extended 'to all the goods material and symbolic, without distinction, that present themselves as rare and worthy of being sought after in a particular social formation (cited in Harker, 1990:13) and cultural capital acts as a social relation within a system of exchange that includes the accumulated cultural knowledge that confers power and status.
This explains pretty well why muslims are frustrated and get radicalized once removed from their normal environment. I think the theory can be applied globally too.
Ehm I have several remarks and objections to make, if you have the patience to continue. I'll just say it nonetheless, after all it's a discussion forum. But first of all, note that I never denied that such people and demands exist, I specifically said above that I'm aware of that phenomenon. Secondly, I live on this planet too you see, I've heard/read about Britain, Belgium, France- although it's been more than a decade since I last visited them. (I was not so impressed by the way, Tunisia and Egypt were more fun, of all the foreign countries I visited, but obviously living in the latters would be another question. Now obviously for a muslim it's not so bad. That said, it's also obvious that the best would be if everyone could just live peacefully and flourish in the country they were born into- but we don't live in an ideal world).
Also, note how you've managed to list 3 of the major colonizer powers of recent past (you could add Germany too, and your country the Netherlands is not much of an exception either in that regard). So the question that comes prior to what the hell are these muslims doing and demanding in said countries, is what the hell were the British, Belgians, French, Dutch and Germans doing in their countries? One could argue that they were spreading technology, science, and democracy, and there is truth in it, but noone is that naive to buy that altogether. (But to be fair, it's not like the locals have no responsibility, as far as some of them collaborated with the conquerors; but see, that's still the same today). This will/would lead us quite off topic, but the point is, we don't live in an ideal world, people have been conquering each other since the dawn of mankind, there is nothing new to it: and of course I'm not saying that this shouldn't be fought and tried to be changed, but you can't put an end to history and evolution. Drawing some imaginary borders on a piece of paper and trying to keep people behind those lines, is at best just an attempt to apply divide et impera in modern times, at worst, it's like building huge concentration camps. Because some countries are really not much better than a concentration camp. In short, I could describe the process from the following aspect: it's common sense that resources are limited. In classic economics, there are 3 production factors: land, labour, and capital. I should add innovation as a fourth in this modern era. Most muslim countries were exploited in regard of natural resources, and they were tricked into a spiral of debt, confining their access to capital and leverage. Oil is a temporal solution for those lucky to have it, but again, when countries like Saudi Arabia use the income from oil to support radicals, then I wouldn't blame children that at the local mosque in say, Amsterdam, they are taught bulls*t by a wahabi teacher financed form SA. Why does your country allow it? But back to the main stream of my reasoning...as most muslim countries are short on natural resources, capital and they are poor at innovation, they only have the labourforce: masses of uneducated people. If they can't make a living in the country they were born into, you can't really blame them for trying their luck abroad: illegally or not, is irrelevant from this aspect. From such masses, simply statistically speaking there will be high chances that some or many people are or will be criminals. Are they to be excused? Of course not. Punish them. If they rape your women? Execute them ,I don't mind. If your leaders are incompetent, change them, make a revolution, or whatever. But sharing videos which only raise misplaced anger and hatred, won't help; it will turn the common folks against each other, common muslims and non-muslims. While the leaders are laughing their asses off. The point is, the host societies have a responsibility of whom and how tehy let in...and how much integratory power they can assert. You can't really blame muslims that they have a higher fertility rate (which is not even that high in Europe, it's barely above 2 in average, which is just enough to maintain growth- the problem is that it's still double compared to that of European women), it's not muslims' fault that European women don't care about giving birth. It leads us back to the labourforce factor. That's the only thing muslims can use in the short run to compete in the globalized world. If you can't educate them, either because of lack of infrastructure or personnel, or simply because most people just don't have what it takes to become, say, engineers or medics, well, then you have to achieve either that they reduce reproduction, or create ways to allocate masses of uneducated labor force throughout the planet more efficiently. Which is in the interest of certain corporations, and profit knows no borders. Of course it will raise conflicts between the newcomers and the natives...and I haven't made calculations, not that I alone could do such a survey...but I'm sure the companies have calculated with the cost of social conflicts and the profit from cheap labor...and probably the latter outdoes the former, so it's worth for them. The common folk (you,I) will be screwed but don't blame the river for flowing over its bank after a heavy rain, and flooding the lands around...You say noone is forcing them to do so, I say (notwithstanding that as sentient beings, we all have a responsibility, whether we are forced or not) there are certain social laws that can't be ignored here, and humans have been obeying, albeit sometimes unconsciously, these laws since ancient times. Just because now you and I can put a screen between us, it doesn't mean that average Joe1 and average Joe2 won't blow each other's skull on the streets of say, Brasilia. So, to me it seems kinda natural that muslims will use basically the only factor they can leverage: their numbers. Masses that can precisely exploit the paradoxes of democracy: if they will be the majority, it's only democratic that they, the majority will take over and dictate the law. There are 3 ways to fight it: 1) educate them/ teach them the advantages of seculaism (if it does have any), 2) try to reduce their reproduction and/or increase that of the natives, 3) don't let any more in. And of course all 3 can be combined. The last 2 is racist and against current European laws...and education doesn't always work, especially if muslims know that all they have to do is be patient and sooner or later they'll be the majority, so why would they bother adopting your values...Note, though, that most of these 'Eurabia' calculations are off the charts, they won't take over in 2-3 decades, maybe in 1-2 hundred years...if there will be mankind by then at all...But yeah it's true it's enough if they take over some key cities and then the fun will begin. So you'd be better off just taking the leaders first, and change the laws which allow basically anyone to stay now.
So notice how I'm not on the opposite side...am a muslim ,but I'm not interested in letting in uneducated masses who only claim they are muslim, while they are drinking alcohol, raping women..etc. That's not islamic. I don't want such people here either.
As for the video specifically, although I've kind of already addressed it, but I think you'll understand if I as a skeptic take that with a grain of salt. Even if you'd dig up a thousand such videos, now that would be representative statistically speaking, but I still couldn't be sure about the authenticity of the methodology...I can't know if they are manipulated, if the interviewees are selected randomly or not...etc. I'll take it for granted now, just to proceed with the discussion. However, I'm sure you'll agree that a kid kinda can't be blamed for having stupid parents, for having been raised in a fanatic/radical household. And as an expert said at a lecture I listened to, if the country's education system can't teach them in 12 years that they shouldn't rape women and shouldn't blow people up, then there is a problem with the education system too. It's the host country's responsibility too. It's not shifting the blame, just stating that we are talking about a complex phenomena here, a dice which the host society and the immigrants are also sides of.
Another problem is, as I've already touched on it, is that in islam, loyalty and social cohesion are primarily based on religious affiliation, not race/ethnicity or nationality. Thus, muslims, especially someone who was raised abroad, simply won't get the idea of ethno-nationalism and nationstates. Or, even if they do coz let's say they come from a place where they take national pride in their country, then obviously they won't just change their national identity- and no way they'll change their religious identity. So they don't understand why couldn't they, say, marry more women, or why couldn't they just pass borders. Especially if someone is from a rural, tribal area. Why do they still come to Europe? Well many of them come because they are actually invited. Some are invited because they are educated, some are invited exactly because they are not educated so they can serve as cheap labor force. They come because they want a better life for themselves and their kids. Some come from war-torn areas. Etc. Most of them are just trying to thrive peacefully, but of course many of them just can't handle the differences. If they have a good job, for a while that will compensate for their social deprivation and frustration. But eventually, if they feel it's not worth them anymore, they'll turn to radical means to compensate. Social power is much dependant on the variable of the number of a certain class or cluster: if muslims can't achieve via political negotiations to have the rights they'd have in muslim countries, they'll use their numbers to exert power and increasing it will obviously giving them more power in a society which is based on democracy, that is the rule of the majority. You can't really blame them for using the weak points of the system to their own gains: in a world which is dictated by the superpowers, and muslim countries are mostly losers in the process we call globalisation. So instead of going home to the sh*thole they came from, they'll try to leverage their numbers where they are. Of course it doesn't excuse average Joe3 for raping average Jane...I'm just talking from a more grand perspective.
Anyway, the kids in the video could barely even express themselves properly, I highly doubt they knew what they were talking about, so I wouldn't take them that seriosuly...they just have a big mouth. Of course you can spam videos with adults too...but as long as it's just speech, well, if I took seriosuly every idiot, comments of whom I see on the internet, threatening me and muslims in general...well, I'd already have closed myself up in the cellar, frightened.
Also, they didn't demand sharia for your country. They were just asking people to convert to islam, they didn't threaten them that they'd kill them otherwise. And they just said that the way women dress there, is not good. I don't think this video is that terrifying, to be honest.
Some points were already addressed above.
Well I'm sure MOST of them are not thieves, rapists or murderers...etc. I can prove it with statistics, if you insist. Although I understand your frustration, as the Netherlands is indeed one of the few countries where immigrants commit most of the crimes. If my memory serves, 60%. Note though that not all immigrants are muslim. And it goes without saying that the number of criminals is usually still little compared to the non-criminals within a cluster. Maybe except for Afro-Americans in the US, I've heard that 1 out of 3 black men is charged with a crime during his lifetime. Or something like that. That raises the question of racism and bias from the authority's part though, but I'm no expert and I don't mean to debate with the Americans here. And I didn't mean to offend anyone.
@bold: I hope it's just a catchphrase of yours, but I didn't take our discussion as a contest to win...as you can see, I agree with you on many points. You just misunderstood my intentions, I didn't want to shift or deny any blame, but I think the proportion of the blame is always debatable, and the responsibility of the West is also a commonplace.
I'd also like to elaborate on the 'patterns they import' part a little more...Well, first of all, what else you expected? From Africa, the Middle-East and Asia they can only bring African, Middle-Eastern and Asian patterns of behavior, and this still needs further detailing, because actually some of the things these young men do here, they couldn't do in their home countries. I guess it's obvious that in a muslim country, they'd be in trouble for drinking alcohol, or they wouldn't harass a fully covered woman on the streets of say, Riyadh. While I called much of the 3rd world as a sh*thole (and again, it's partially a sh*thole because of us the West too), but they are not thaaaat sh*tty, or at least it's not like they can't live normally there. Most of them do. It's always the rotten apples that sore the eye, and always the loud ones that hurt your ears. And that said, as I've already mentioned, as long as people stay in their usual environment, that is, the place they were born in, they usually get along. That's why it'd be ideal if everyone could just stay home. It's because two different and in some aspects, mutually exclusive cultures/peoples meet, that conflicts arise due to misunderstandings, frustration...etc. Let me refer to Bordieu's social capital theory:
For Bourdieu, capital acts as a social relation within a system of exchange, and the term is extended 'to all the goods material and symbolic, without distinction, that present themselves as rare and worthy of being sought after in a particular social formation (cited in Harker, 1990:13) and cultural capital acts as a social relation within a system of exchange that includes the accumulated cultural knowledge that confers power and status.
This explains pretty well why muslims are frustrated and get radicalized once removed from their normal environment. I think the theory can be applied globally too.
I'll reply in depth tomorrow. I have an 11-hour shift right now and I'm on my smartphone.
A leader of a country can force the People of his nation into commiting attrocities. That was the case for Belgium invading the Congo, britain meddling with India, Netherlands invading Indonesia and surroundings. What leader of what country has forced the middle-easterners and South east-asians To invade and commit attrocities upon the judeo-Christian western nations?
Sure, not all of the invading immigrants are "like that". But the peaceful majority is irrelevant.
( I have To commend You though for Your neutral and non-aggressive approach of response. That's something most muslims on here are not capable of. With very few exceptions.)
And you're right, when I say 'can/cannot win a discussion' I do not mean it as a personal competition, but more so as; it is impossible To counterargue This specific sub-topic at hand.
About the Video: These cancerous youth are everywhere in my country. Like I Said; I grew up amongst them and as blacks are a menace To society in the u.s., so are Young muslim Men in the Netherlands. I wouldn't have shared the Video if the content wasn't as common as it actually is in my country. And that goes to show what those children are being taught indoors. And when the parents are confronted, they'll very subtly sugarcoat their response and avoid having To Be honest.
In a state in the u.s.a., Georgia I think?..assuming that is a state; the yearly homicide statistics of a specific year stated that 80% of homicides were black on black. So, blacks cry 'racism' and all other sorts of stuff To shift blame but the stonecold statistics Will shut them up. The Same with Young muslim Men in Holland. The highest rating ethnicity when it comes To welfare receiving are of arab decent. Crime statistics go hand in hand with arabs and blacks. And I'm not White, Just making that clear.
I'll go more in depth when I have my laptop on me. Feel Free To fill in- or correct me where You can.
No hurry, I'm taking time from my studies to reply too.
A leader of a country can force the People of his nation into commiting attrocities. That was the case for Belgium invading the Congo, britain meddling with India, Netherlands invading Indonesia and surroundings. What leader of what country has forced the middle-easterners and South east-asians To invade and commit attrocities upon the judeo-Christian western nations?
A leader can force people to commit atrocities? Like, did Bush put a gun in his soldiers hands and threatened them to go to Afghanistan and Iraq ? Because then I could argue that Bin Laden and Al-Baghdadi were just forcing their adherents to commit atrocities too...
Also, there is an ostensible distinction between war and crime. Going to war =/= random folks immigrating into a country and commiting crime on their own. Actually, a country is more responsible for what its leaders do, than muslims in general for what some individuals do in your country. You don't mean to say that say, an Indonesian muslim is responsible for what Ali from Somalia does in Malmö? But I can say that if you elect shi*tty leaders who go to war, then it's partially your fault too. The Iraqi war had a support of 80% amongst the American population in the beginning of the war. So let's not mix the two issues, albeit I mentioned it too, I mentioned it in a different context, for a different purpose.
And we are still running in the same circle. I'm not denying the responsibility of those who commit crimes. Muslim or not. A crime is a crime. Punish it. (Though, some crimes differ from country to country- but as I said, for example raping women on the street would also be a crime in whatever muslim country too). I don't mean to shift the blame of these individuals. But as I said, from the point of a bigger scheme, before you ask why are muslims countries so deprived that the population has to flow to the West, maybe let's ask what had the host countries been doing abroad not long ago. As to why immigrants are more likely to be overrepresented in crime stats, I have partially answered already- the relevant sociological literature can answer the rest for you.
( I have To commend You though for Your neutral and non-aggressive approach of response. That's something most muslims on here are not capable of. With very few exceptions.)
Eh I hate to say that I don't take it as a compliment and can't return it, but yeah...would you take it as a compliment if I said I commend you for your non-aggressive approach compared to most men of darker skin color? No. You're doing the same, just substitute skin color with religion. Besides, I didn't see most muslims being aggressive here. Just my experience. And obviously if you start by saying that 'muslims are aggressive because they are in my country', then don't be surprised if many will be offended...
And you're right, when I say 'can/cannot win a discussion' I do not mean it as a personal competition, but more so as; it is impossible To counterargue This specific sub-topic at hand.
Well again, I didn't mean to deny that there is a problem with many muslims, or that they are overrepresented in crime stats in your country. But don't generalize, and whining won't help to be honest. I guess I speak easily coz my country hosts relatively small muslim communities, and none is radical. But as for the reasons regarding the overrepresentation of immigrants in crime stats, now that's a different issue. Numbers are a matter of fact- they can't be argued (unless there are colliding statistics). But numbers are just numbers. They have their social context. And that can be argued, analyzed, etc. Simply noting that many muslims are aggressive- well, ok, so what am I supposed to do with it now? I don't deny it, I have no means to check your niche, so I'll just take your experience for granted. But returning to the thread's original topic for a moment: in Japan, muslims are not leeching on the welfare system, they are not demanding sharia, etc. They held some protest against an American video, ok. But not every country with muslims have a 'muslim issue'. If they do, then you still have to be careful to which you attribute the source of the problem. Them being muslims? Or African, Asian? Specifically, Somali, Pakistani, or Korean? Are they educated? Do they have a job? Are they accepted by the host society? Etc. You can't just say they commit crimes because they are muslims, or because they are African/Asian, or just because they are immigrants. There are instances when immigrants are actually underrepresented in crime stats in some places. So it depends on many factors. And as I said, about 'leeching on the welfare system' and demanding rights, etc...well why wouldn't they try to exploit the flaws of the system? It's perfectly rational. The Western colonizers first also just migrated to the new world to escape persecution in the main land, or to spread their faith, or to just trade peacefully etc. Then they joined in local conflicts, turned tribes against each other, sold weapons for land, bought slaves for more weaponry, made tricky trade and debt deals, etc. Of course this wasn't unique to Westerners, but I'm just saying there is nothing new under the Sun. Except that now the immigrants flooding Europe are not the ones plotting how they'll turn the system over. It's rather spontaneous, but of course there are some who purposedly organize themselves. Especially the radicals. Especially because they have the money from shady businesses (oil, drugs, human trafficking, prostitution etc.)- which have nothing to do with islam. It's business. Sure it still doesn't explain why average Joe rapes average Jane, but I partially have answered that too. And again, I don't condone it. Just don't generalize.
About the Video: These cancerous youth are everywhere in my country. Like I Said; I grew up amongst them and as blacks are a menace To society in the u.s., so are Young muslim Men in the Netherlands. I wouldn't have shared the Video if the content wasn't as common as it actually is in my country. And that goes to show what those children are being taught indoors. And when the parents are confronted, they'll very subtly sugarcoat their response and avoid having To Be honest.
In a state in the u.s.a., Georgia I think?..assuming that is a state; the yearly homicide statistics of a specific year stated that 80% of homicides were black on black. So, blacks cry 'racism' and all other sorts of stuff To shift blame but the stonecold statistics Will shut them up. The Same with Young muslim Men in Holland. The highest rating ethnicity when it comes To welfare receiving are of arab decent. Crime statistics go hand in hand with arabs and blacks. And I'm not White, Just making that clear.
I'll go more in depth when I have my laptop on me. Feel Free To fill in- or correct me where You can.
I believe you that it's common, but well, what do you mean by common? I'm sure not every muslim is like that. Though, as I have already pointed out, I don't think that this video specifically is so alarming. All the guys said is that they don't like how women dress- but they didn't rape anyone, right? All they said is that people should convert to islam- they didn't say they'd kill them if they don't, right?
Just to make my point conveyed: I tell all of you here on NB to convert to islam. It will be better for you. And girls, stop dressing in a way that uncovers most of your body.
Does it make me a radical? Does it make me a rapist? Does it make me aggressive? I don't think so. Not more so than the average native Jack on facebook commenting that muslim women in Europe should stop covering their heads or else they should get the f*ck out. Or that the aforementioned Jack can't wait for a right wing party to win and deport all muslims...
Again, as for welfare receiving...why are you blaming them for exploiting the system? It's only rational and expectable that they'd do that. Everyone does. Donald Trump did so as well, when he exploited the tax system of his country to his own benefit. What you really have a problem with, is your system. Your laws. You can change them. I can't, from here. If someone is eligible for state aid- well, then they are eligible. Are you not eligible of any? If you are, then you also take what you think you deserve, so why blame others for the same thing?
Sure, not all of the invading immigrants are "like that". But the peaceful majority is irrelevant.
Oops I missed this gem.
It can be turned around quite easily.
*insert country* is backwards and the culture of people from *insert country* is aggressive because some people are like that from *insert country*, and the majority is irrelevant.
Insert your country, the US, or whatever country you want, it'll sound the same stupid.
I'll reply in depth tomorrow. I have an 11-hour shift right now and I'm on my smartphone.
A leader of a country can force the People of his nation into commiting attrocities. That was the case for Belgium invading the Congo, britain meddling with India, Netherlands invading Indonesia and surroundings. What leader of what country has forced the middle-easterners and South east-asians To invade and commit attrocities upon the judeo-Christian western nations?
Sure, not all of the invading immigrants are "like that". But the peaceful majority is irrelevant.
( I have To commend You though for Your neutral and non-aggressive approach of response. That's something most muslims on here are not capable of. With very few exceptions.)
And you're right, when I say 'can/cannot win a discussion' I do not mean it as a personal competition, but more so as; it is impossible To counterargue This specific sub-topic at hand.
About the Video: These cancerous youth are everywhere in my country. Like I Said; I grew up amongst them and as blacks are a menace To society in the u.s., so are Young muslim Men in the Netherlands. I wouldn't have shared the Video if the content wasn't as common as it actually is in my country. And that goes to show what those children are being taught indoors. And when the parents are confronted, they'll very subtly sugarcoat their response and avoid having To Be honest.
In a state in the u.s.a., Georgia I think?..assuming that is a state; the yearly homicide statistics of a specific year stated that 80% of homicides were black on black. So, blacks cry 'racism' and all other sorts of stuff To shift blame but the stonecold statistics Will shut them up. The Same with Young muslim Men in Holland. The highest rating ethnicity when it comes To welfare receiving are of arab decent. Crime statistics go hand in hand with arabs and blacks. And I'm not White, Just making that clear.
I'll go more in depth when I have my laptop on me. Feel Free To fill in- or correct me where You can.
Serious question whenever I read statements like these it always comes off to me to just blame and insult instead of trying to truly understand why something is the way it is and try to fix it.
Using you Muslim and black analogy you make you see two groups with certain faction plagued with criminality. For those who are black is it there skin that makes them fall to criminality I think you might say no but the poor environments that cause them to fall into it. And I don't think people are ignorant to this then why do people choose the course of dialogue that's just antagonist if your not trying to help your part of the problem and I don't mean this in insulting way just hope for you to realize what your doing
No hurry, I'm taking time from my studies to reply too.
A leader can force people to commit atrocities? Like, did Bush put a gun in his soldiers hands and threatened them to go to Afghanistan and Iraq ? Because then I could argue that Bin Laden and Al-Baghdadi were just forcing their adherents to commit atrocities too...
Also, there is an ostensible distinction between war and crime. Going to war =/= random folks immigrating into a country and commiting crime on their own. Actually, a country is more responsible for what its leaders do, than muslims in general for what some individuals do in your country. You don't mean to say that say, an Indonesian muslim is responsible for what Ali from Somalia does in Malmö? But I can say that if you elect shi*tty leaders who go to war, then it's partially your fault too. The Iraqi war had a support of 80% amongst the American population in the beginning of the war. So let's not mix the two issues, albeit I mentioned it too, I mentioned it in a different context, for a different purpose.
And we are still running in the same circle. I'm not denying the responsibility of those who commit crimes. Muslim or not. A crime is a crime. Punish it. (Though, some crimes differ from country to country- but as I said, for example raping women on the street would also be a crime in whatever muslim country too). I don't mean to shift the blame of these individuals. But as I said, from the point of a bigger scheme, before you ask why are muslims countries so deprived that the population has to flow to the West, maybe let's ask what had the host countries been doing abroad not long ago. As to why immigrants are more likely to be overrepresented in crime stats, I have partially answered already- the relevant sociological literature can answer the rest for you.
Eh I hate to say that I don't take it as a compliment and can't return it, but yeah...would you take it as a compliment if I said I commend you for your non-aggressive approach compared to most men of darker skin color? No. You're doing the same, just substitute skin color with religion. Besides, I didn't see most muslims being aggressive here. Just my experience. And obviously if you start by saying that 'muslims are aggressive because they are in my country', then don't be surprised if many will be offended...
Well again, I didn't mean to deny that there is a problem with many muslims, or that they are overrepresented in crime stats in your country. But don't generalize, and whining won't help to be honest. I guess I speak easily coz my country hosts relatively small muslim communities, and none is radical. But as for the reasons regarding the overrepresentation of immigrants in crime stats, now that's a different issue. Numbers are a matter of fact- they can't be argued (unless there are colliding statistics). But numbers are just numbers. They have their social context. And that can be argued, analyzed, etc. Simply noting that many muslims are aggressive- well, ok, so what am I supposed to do with it now? I don't deny it, I have no means to check your niche, so I'll just take your experience for granted. But returning to the thread's original topic for a moment: in Japan, muslims are not leeching on the welfare system, they are not demanding sharia, etc. They held some protest against an American video, ok. But not every country with muslims have a 'muslim issue'. If they do, then you still have to be careful to which you attribute the source of the problem. Them being muslims? Or African, Asian? Specifically, Somali, Pakistani, or Korean? Are they educated? Do they have a job? Are they accepted by the host society? Etc. You can't just say they commit crimes because they are muslims, or because they are African/Asian, or just because they are immigrants. There are instances when immigrants are actually underrepresented in crime stats in some places. So it depends on many factors. And as I said, about 'leeching on the welfare system' and demanding rights, etc...well why wouldn't they try to exploit the flaws of the system? It's perfectly rational. The Western colonizers first also just migrated to the new world to escape persecution in the main land, or to spread their faith, or to just trade peacefully etc. Then they joined in local conflicts, turned tribes against each other, sold weapons for land, bought slaves for more weaponry, made tricky trade and debt deals, etc. Of course this wasn't unique to Westerners, but I'm just saying there is nothing new under the Sun. Except that now the immigrants flooding Europe are not the ones plotting how they'll turn the system over. It's rather spontaneous, but of course there are some who purposedly organize themselves. Especially the radicals. Especially because they have the money from shady businesses (oil, drugs, human trafficking, prostitution etc.)- which have nothing to do with islam. It's business. Sure it still doesn't explain why average Joe rapes average Jane, but I partially have answered that too. And again, I don't condone it. Just don't generalize.
I believe you that it's common, but well, what do you mean by common? I'm sure not every muslim is like that. Though, as I have already pointed out, I don't think that this video specifically is so alarming. All the guys said is that they don't like how women dress- but they didn't rape anyone, right? All they said is that people should convert to islam- they didn't say they'd kill them if they don't, right?
Just to make my point conveyed: I tell all of you here on NB to convert to islam. It will be better for you. And girls, stop dressing in a way that uncovers most of your body.
Does it make me a radical? Does it make me a rapist? Does it make me aggressive? I don't think so. Not more so than the average native Jack on facebook commenting that muslim women in Europe should stop covering their heads or else they should get the f*ck out. Or that the aforementioned Jack can't wait for a right wing party to win and deport all muslims...
Again, as for welfare receiving...why are you blaming them for exploiting the system? It's only rational and expectable that they'd do that. Everyone does. Donald Trump did so as well, when he exploited the tax system of his country to his own benefit. What you really have a problem with, is your system. Your laws. You can change them. I can't, from here. If someone is eligible for state aid- well, then they are eligible. Are you not eligible of any? If you are, then you also take what you think you deserve, so why blame others for the same thing?
Oops I missed this gem.
It can be turned around quite easily.
*insert country* is backwards and the culture of people from *insert country* is aggressive because some people are like that from *insert country*, and the majority is irrelevant.
Insert your country, the US, or whatever country you want, it'll sound the same stupid.
I keep having to repeat myself on this whenever this specific discussion occurs on NB..
I am not talking about Bin Laden or any other islamic figure with the power to be of great influence. We're talking about the common man.
Bolded 2: Well, yes, the word of the citizens of any country is of relevance to these empire building business tactics. (Although having no power by itself) Wether you'd vote for a candidate like George W. Bush or not, either way, he and his neo-con advancement would find ways to get the consent of the citizens. And how? By implementing fear and misinformation as a means to heavily influence the opinion of the masses. This goes beyond simple culture clashes and is in direct correlation not of relevance to what I was talking about. Young muslim men being a problem in my country, that is. Do you know what generation the children are from the video you've watched? 2nd or 3rd generation muslim youth. They were born here and their parents might have. The systematic destruction of the middle-east by the u.s. and Israel has had no impact on their lives whatsoever. It's their tight knit community that keeps their opinions assimilated. Always complaining about the jews for one. Convinced of their value pattern being superior to the west, yet leeching of the very foundation they secretly look down upon.
At bolded 3:
And this is why it matters that so many are leeching off of welfare. This year, with the arrival of thousands of economic refugees claiming to be fleeing from war, the percentage of people on welfare has risen with 1% topped of the entire population of the country. Hundreds were complaining, demanding, problematic. And this is coming from a people that deem the western value pattern to be below them.
And no, I cannot change anything about these events. Any real informed citizen would know that the common man is absolutely void of any power. We can barely decide the biggest aspects of our own lives.
And I don't like to generalize truly, but when the irrefutable statistics show you just how much changed domestically within the timespan of one year after the arrival of thousands of supposedly ''war'' refugees, whilest having the 2nd and 3rd generation dutch muslims joke about western civilization falling to islam (which means 'to submit' funnily enough) ,you oughta think thrice about the matter.
Please, when you reply, keep it brief and focused. I know you have the tendency to over-analyze every tiny subject, Kobak.
Serious question whenever I read statements like these it always comes off to me to just blame and insult instead of trying to truly understand why something is the way it is and try to fix it.
Using you Muslim and black analogy you make you see two groups with certain faction plagued with criminality. For those who are black is it there skin that makes them fall to criminality I think you might say no but the poor environments that cause them to fall into it. And I don't think people are ignorant to this then why do people choose the course of dialogue that's just antagonist if your not trying to help your part of the problem and I don't mean this in insulting way just hope for you to realize what your doing
Fixing socio-economic issues is not an option, Sagebee. I'm well aware how the african american community has been conditioned by the authorities with the controlled flow of drugs, declining job market and etc. But in the end; it's the unsophisticated culture of the african americans that perpetuates the stink eye they get from whites. Stone cold statistics will show you the crime rates against and by african-americans. It's a dead end. You can't keep pulling the racist-card when you won't look in the mirror. Fix your community first before you start complaining about being maltreated. Ofcourse, that maltreatment is a very real and long-lasting issue, but my point is by % blacks are perpetuating that problem themselves. I've been homeless myself with my parents albeit very briefly. my father had acquaintances who are now either in jail or 3 feet under the ground. He could make quick money by dealing drugs but the whole ''thug'' way of living was not for him. Why? He is sophisticated. Articulate. Honest. Passive.
I just finished a 11-hour shift, I am not so sharp at the moment and about to hit the hay. Feel free to correct me if I haven't answered your question properly. I wouldn't know at this point..
I keep having to repeat myself on this whenever this specific discussion occurs on NB..
I am not talking about Bin Laden or any other islamic figure with the power to be of great influence. We're talking about the common man.
Bolded 2: Well, yes, the word of the citizens of any country is of relevance to these empire building business tactics. (Although having no power by itself) Wether you'd vote for a candidate like George W. Bush or not, either way, he and his neo-con advancement would find ways to get the consent of the citizens. And how? By implementing fear and misinformation as a means to heavily influence the opinion of the masses. This goes beyond simple culture clashes and is in direct correlation not of relevance to what I was talking about. Young muslim men being a problem in my country, that is. Do you know what generation the children are from the video you've watched? 2nd or 3rd generation muslim youth. They were born here and their parents might have. The systematic destruction of the middle-east by the u.s. and Israel has had no impact on their lives whatsoever. It's their tight knit community that keeps their opinions assimilated. Always complaining about the jews for one. Convinced of their value pattern being superior to the west, yet leeching of the very foundation they secretly look down upon.
At bolded 3:
And this is why it matters that so many are leeching off of welfare. This year, with the arrival of thousands of economic refugees claiming to be fleeing from war, the percentage of people on welfare has risen with 1% topped of the entire population of the country. Hundreds were complaining, demanding, problematic. And this is coming from a people that deem the western value pattern to be below them.
And no, I cannot change anything about these events. Any real informed citizen would know that the common man is absolutely void of any power. We can barely decide the biggest aspects of our own lives.
And I don't like to generalize truly, but when the irrefutable statistics show you just how much changed domestically within the timespan of one year after the arrival of thousands of supposedly ''war'' refugees, whilest having the 2nd and 3rd generation dutch muslims joke about western civilization falling to islam (which means 'to submit' funnily enough) ,you oughta think thrice about the matter.
Please, when you reply, keep it brief and focused. I know you have the tendency to over-analyze every tiny subject, Kobak.
Besides, I don't think one can spare the intellectual effort to analyze complex matters.
I just mentioned Bin Laden because you said that leaders have the power to force their people to go to war- then I countered by the example of Bin Laden: maybe he was just forcing his people too, by the same reasoning? Obviously no.He and the radicals misinterpret islam and misinform the desperate masses, just like Western politicians use ideas like 'democracy' or 'nationalism' to influence the sheep. We agree on this one. I mentioned the Western powers because we are living on the same planet, so why not view things from a perspective that is beyond what some individuals do in your environment. I could say that I know no such muslims here, so apparently it depends, and your experience is not necessarily a universal one.
The point is, I never denied that many muslims have a venomous mentality we all have to fight, but this is one side of the dice. I mentioned some other sides. You can ignore them if you wish, you can say they're irrelevant,but they're still there. I meant to share the blame, not to shift it. And I proposed that we can argue about the proportion of the blame.
And I don't think you can blame a kid for having been raised and indoctrinated in such a household- and if you blame the household (parents), maybe we should also ask, how come that the education system, the teachers, the fellow students, your society, can't convince kids to respects, say, women there?
Also, you say they are not influenced by how the West screws up their parents' and grandparents' homelands: well, you've just contradicted yourself...obviously they still have relatives living in those countries, and if let's say their cousins are killed in a drone strike, that will leave an impact on their kin living in the West. I also mentioned that loyalty for a muslim is a bit different than for Westerners living in nation states.
'Irrefutable statistics' (interestingly you think government statistics on this one are reliable) show that at least half of them are indeed war refugees. Their behavior is a matter of sociological studies. And I conceded that those who commit crimes shall be punished, and you can deport them. If the authorities there are incompetent, that's a flaw in the system that will be abused. You repeated your complaint about welfare leeches, while you haven't answered what else would you expect? If the law says someone is eligible for welfare aids, why wouldn't the person take it? Again, you rather have a problem with your system, not the person who enjoys the system. If they secretly look down on it? Well it's not like you don't look down on them, so the feeling seems mutual. You say you can't change anything; alright, I take it as you agree with what I said on social laws humans subconsciously obey: average Joes will leverage their numbers to gain social power, and you can't change demographic trends. But it's not muslims' fault that European women don't wanna give birth, so Europe needs cheap labor from countries that have nothing but numbers of laborers to offer. Someone just posted a thread on evolution preferring resilience over intelligence- I've read an article about it on BBC too; so what you're seeing is the less intelligent people flooding towards the least resistent places. I must call the attention though that this be separated from refugees who come not because they have nothing better to do (see, f.e before the civil war in Syria how many Syrians had come here? Not many. Their country was fairly liveable. So it's not like suddenly they decided they'd come and take your welfare away). I'll also repeat that I agree many of them are parasites, they should be vetted and sent home. And for the last time, I never denied, in fact I myself posted a stats that yes many immigrants pose a problem in your country, it's just there is still no need to generalize. And yes, average Joes are responsible for their actions, but then the average citizen is also responsible for his/her actions, including how they treat newcomers, and whom they elect; notwithstanding that obviously let's say a rapist's responsibility for raping someone is ultimately higher than say, your responsibility for what your government does secretly. But then, if your government doesn't do anything against, say, Saudis financing hate imams who educate kids at the local mosque to look down upon your country: then don't blame the kids (or at least not them only), blame the Saudis and your government. And again, I'm not saying it's not an issue, or that muslims are not responsible at all. But if they're socially deprived, or so they feel, they'll try every means to change that- even violent means. From natives' perspective that's obviously bad- from a grand perspective, it's just the dialectics of history. Fight back is all I can say in the end. Or keep complaining as you've been doing for the past umpteen years. Obviously if you allow average Joes to take over your country, why wouldn't they do that? It's not like Western countries were shy to impose their culture on the rest of the world. But again, immigration as an abstract process in and itself is neither bad nor good; it's usually profitable, and sometimes not; in your country, it's starting to backfire. Don't blame immigrants in general, or muslims in general, don't blame abstract processes like immigration or islam...etc. Ask yourself what can you do, and if your answer is nothing, then why debate me on something you think average people like you and myself can't impact anyway? While you're trying to 'convince' me on something I didn't even deny, with the same effort you could ask an average muslim Joe there why is he being backwards, and try convince him he shouldn't look down on the country that hosts and welcomes him. If he is too stupid to understand it (and I know there are many stupid people like that), then at least you tried. But I'm sure the solution is not to support populists who use big words like 'deport all muslims' and 'muslims are a threat'...etc. Radicals are a threat to us moderates as well, so we should cooperate instead of fighting if you can do nothing or not. If you want to shove off responsibility- then it's a very convenient way to really not do anything.
Sorry I ranted again. In short:
- don't generalize
- share the responsibility, we all live on the same planet after all and idiocy and radicalism are our common enemies
- blaming is all too easy; how about you try to understand complex processes and look beyond those irrefutable numbers- there is a human behind every number; and as average Joe as a homo economicus is a [quasi] rational albeit not too intelligent being, you can try convincing them, or influence the homo politicuses to change the welfare system. (And as an immigrant yourself, you can always just move back to your homeland or to a place less affected by them muslims.)
