[Discussion] Is Mihawk underrated or overrated?

[Insidious Smile]

But ne won't rely on sword as much real swordmen would since he has sword + DF

I disagree with WSS>Swordmen + DF in some cases.

Luffy already surpassed Doffy.

 

[~Naruto&Itachi~]

Luffy already surpassed Doffy.

lol yep....he sure did

 

[chopstickchakra]

The Kaku pics do work. It shows that despite being a martial artist, Kaku is still considered a swordsman. Rankyaku is part of the Rokushiki martial art. If you can be both a martial artist and a swordsman like Kaku, using a completely separate art and style of fighting to compliment your swordsmanship, there is absolutely no reason you can't do the same with a DF power.

Law channels his DF power and uses it with his sword. That makes him a swordsman. If someone who channels Haki slashes like Zoro and Mihawk through his sword to enhance his swordplay is still a swordsman, then Law is still a swordsman because he channels his DF power through his sword.

That's your interpretation of it, but I disagree. As you said Kaku used his Rokushiki(?) to complement his sword fighting capabilities, Law uses his sword to compliment his DF's abilities. The haki and Kaku example are people using an internal force to boost their sword feats/abilities while Law uses his sword as an attachment of his DF powers, how often do we ever see Law actually use his sword without his DF powers together? Not often. Is Sanji a swordsman because of his skill with knives? Proficiency in an art/skill shouldn't be what classifies you, my main point is(and I'm sure you'll dismiss it as you do most posts that aren't agreeing with you) IF, IF Oda had decided to give law a different weapon say a bisento, he would still have a very similar fighting style because it is centered around the abilities of his DF and not his blade, his blade is simply a tool used in accordance to his DF; if Zoro was given different weapons his fighting style would be completely different. Haki and Rokushiki is an internal force of the user which is why I would say it's not the same comparing that to a sword fighter who has a DF.

 

[Punk Hazard]

That's your interpretation of it, but I disagree. As you said Kaku used his Rokushiki(?) to complement his sword fighting capabilities, Law uses his sword to compliment his DF's abilities. The haki and Kaku example are people using an internal force to boost their sword feats/abilities while Law uses his sword as an attachment of his DF powers, how often do we ever see Law actually use his sword without his DF powers together? Not often. Is Sanji a swordsman because of his skill with knives? Proficiency in an art/skill shouldn't be what classifies you, my main point is(and I'm sure you'll dismiss it as you do most posts that aren't agreeing with you) IF, IF Oda had decided to give law a different weapon say a bisento, he would still have a very similar fighting style because it is centered around the abilities of his DF and not his blade, his blade is simply a tool used in accordance to his DF; if Zoro was given different weapons his fighting style would be completely different. Haki and Rokushiki is an internal force of the user which is why I would say it's not the same comparing that to a sword fighter who has a DF.

Using his sword as an attachment to his DF powers is the same as using his DF attached to his sword. You're essentially trying to tell me 2+2=4 is different from 4=2+2.

Haki, DF powers, Rokushiki, it's all the same concept: An external skill and power combined with swordsmanship to improve the overall capabilities of the swordsman. If Kaku and Law aren't swordsman because they compliment their swordplay with separate styles and abilities, then neither are swordsmen with Haki. You don't get to pick and choose which external abilities complimenting swordsmanship count and which don't just to appease your opinion. Either all separate abilities count or none do.

The notion that Law isn't a swordsman because if Oda gave him a weapon, he'd still be strong is very devoid of sense. That's like me saying Sanji isn't a martial artist because if he got marksmanship training, he could still be strong. That's like saying Zoro isn't a swordsman because if he received martial arts training, he'd be an incredible martial artist due to his physical strength.

@Bold: In the previous chapter, when Law and Zoro detected danger, Law's first act was to draw his sword, rather than activate his DF. Law possesses enough skill with his sword to duel with Smoker's jitte, and parry with Doflamingo's string assaults. Law is proficient enough with his sword that he used to counter Overheat much better than Luffy did against a half-dead Doflamingo. You don't get to reach that level of skill by being mainly a DF user who just swings his sword a bit every now and then.

 

[chopstickchakra]

The notion that Law isn't a swordsman because if Oda gave him a weapon, he'd still be strong is very devoid of sense. That's like me saying Sanji isn't a martial artist because if he got marksmanship training, he could still be strong. That's like saying Zoro isn't a swordsman because if he received martial arts training, he'd be an incredible martial artist due to his physical strength.

I'm not saying if he got a new weapon though so that's not comparable to training. I'm saying if Oda had decided to depict him differently in only one way such as giving him a different weapon besides a sword originally like say a Bisento, then not a whole lot would change for him because he would still use his DF as his main fighting style and the Bisento would then be used like his sword is. If Sanji learned marksmanship isn't the same but if Oda had originally depicted Sanji as a marksman then it would be comparable and we could say Sanji isn't a martial artist. You're retort was comparing apples to oranges by having them learn a secondary skill rather than replacing their core characteristics so far with something different. And yes I'm aware that could stand for a lot of characters but not all of them, and there's not a lot of examples I can think of right now who actually fit a DF user with a weapon. WB is one and nothing would change about him if his weapon was a different one. If you can think of a DF user who also uses a weapon whose fighting style would drastically alter if said weapon was switched I would be interested in hearing.

Haki, DF powers, Rokushiki, it's all the same concept: An external skill and power combined with swordsmanship to improve the overall capabilities of the swordsman. If Kaku and Law aren't swordsman because they compliment their swordplay with separate styles and abilities, then neither are swordsmen with Haki. You don't get to pick and choose which external abilities complimenting swordsmanship count and which don't just to appease your opinion. Either all separate abilities count or none do.

They're not really though, haki & Rokushiki are internally created by the user while a DF's power is granted by an outside factor. I never said Kaku wasn't I said Law wasn't. I view Haki and Rokushiki users as swordsmen because they rely on their sword as their weapon and Haki or Rokushiki as a boost to their attacks. Law on the other hand typically uses Room to initiate an attack and his sword or other methods to enhance his Room.

And for the record, it seemed like in your last post you implied Doffy was also a swordsman, I think that is the only time I've ever seen that. Is that correct in me assuming you categorize Doffy a swordsman? I ask because you said Law had the demeanor of one and showed the "weaklings don't get to choose how they die" panel and showed Doffy saying the same. It seemed you were connecting that phrase to Law's swordsman code and thus to Doffy as well.

 

[Punk Hazard]

They're not really though, haki & Rokushiki are internally created by the user while a DF's power is granted by an outside factor.

That doesn't matter because all three are separate from the sword.

I never said Kaku wasn't I said Law wasn't.

Amazing that Kaku can be both a martial artist and a swordsman and use them to compliment each other, but Law can't be a DF user and a swordsman. Well, maybe not so amazing as convenient.

I view Haki and Rokushiki users as swordsmen because they rely on their sword as their weapon and Haki or Rokushiki as a boost to their attacks. Law on the other hand typically uses Room to initiate an attack and his sword or other methods to enhance his Room.

Law enhances his swordplay with his DF, a power separate from his sword, the same way they do with a power separate from their swords.

And for the record, it seemed like in your last post you implied Doffy was also a swordsman, I think that is the only time I've ever seen that. Is that correct in me assuming you categorize Doffy a swordsman? I ask because you said Law had the demeanor of one and showed the "weaklings don't get to choose how they die" panel and showed Doffy saying the same. It seemed you were connecting that phrase to Law's swordsman code and thus to Doffy as well.

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[chopstickchakra]

That doesn't matter because all three are separate from the sword.


Amazing that Kaku can be both a martial artist and a swordsman and use them to compliment each other, but Law can't be a DF user and a swordsman. Well, maybe not so amazing as convenient.



Law enhances his swordplay with his DF, a power separate from his sword, the same way they do with a power separate from their swords.

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nice Office gif, interesting thought about Doffy though, I've never considered him a swordsman by any measure I'm curious know how many and who, do. Also I'm curious about some other characters like Aokiji and Kizaru who don't really use swords but can make a sword from their DF element.

That doesn't matter because all three are separate from the sword

It doesn't matter to you but it's something I take into consideration when discussing this issue, it's just the main point where we disagree.

Amazing that Kaku can be both a martial artist and a swordsman and use them to compliment each other, but Law can't be a DF user and a swordsman. Well, maybe not so amazing as convenient.

It's not really amazing or convenient it's my opinion on the matter, it's not like I'm applying it solely to Law to boost his portrayal I feel this way for all known DF users who wield a sword. I've explained why I separate the 3 skills and stayed consistent to it so I'm not sure how it'd be convenient

Law enhances his swordplay with his DF, a power separate from his sword, the same way they do with a power separate from their swords.

I can't express it any differently but I don't agree with that, that's like saying someone who uses will power to finish a race is the same as a guy who took steroids to finish the same race, clearly the two aren't the same and the outside force person got an extra boost.

Edit: Dammit now I've seen that gif role too much I gotta go watch Office. later.

 

[Ripple Hole]

That doesn't actually prove he's a swordsman though, in fact I would argue it proves the opposite. Just because Doffy mentions teaching Law swordplay through his executives doesn't make him a swordsman it just means he knows how to fight with one. Doffy also says we taught you martial arts and marksmanship but Law's not a brawler type like Luffy or Garp and he's not a marksman like Usopp, he's a DF fighter like Doffy or Ace. He may use a sword but his primary attack method is his DF, to be classified as a swordsman the dominant fighting method should be through those swords imo.

Edit: And those Kaku pics don't fit your argument as they were him using his sword with Ryokushi techs not his DF, and he was a swordsman before gaining his DF. The argument was a character with a sword as a weapon who uses their DF power over their blade, Kaku does not fit that(at least not at that point in the manga)

Law trained under a swordsman and uses a sword as a method of battle, and for the majority
of his attacks he's using his sword in conjunction. It's pretty obvious why Law can't be considered
something like a marksman because it isn't a primary way for him to battle, and he has yet to show
those skills. Law used his sword in every battle he used his DF, it's beyond me how you
can say he uses his DF over his sword when he uses both in conjunction.

When someone uses a sword in every battle, it's definitely not a
secondary skill for that person.

 

[chopstickchakra]

Law trained under a swordsman and uses a sword as a method of battle, and for the majority
of his attacks he's using his sword in conjunction. It's pretty obvious why Law can't be considered
something like a marksman because it isn't a primary way for him to battle, and he has yet to show
those skills. Law used his sword in every battle he used his DF, it's beyond me how you
can say he uses his DF over his sword when he uses both in conjunction.

When someone uses a sword in every battle, it's definitely not a
secondary skill for that person.

Because even with out his sword he can still be as dangerous with just his DF, but without his DF he can't be as dangerous with just his sword, not from what I've seen at least you may view it as he could. Law could replace his sword with any weapon and be nearly as effective as now but can the same really be said for if you replaced his fruit with any other fruit? Just because someone uses something in every battle doesn't mean it's not still a secondary skill. An mma fighter who fights most with hands and feet, that's their primary skill, and some can submit people also that is a secondary skill they use in every fight and is still a secondary skill to them because it's not as significant to their style as their primary skill in this case the DF.

 

[Punk Hazard]

Because even with out his sword he can still be as dangerous with just his DF

That's actually not true, since he's left to just Counter Shock, Gamma Knife, and Mez as attacks without his sword. While GK might be his best technique, his fighting style heavily involves needing his sword. Take away Law's sword, and he's ****ed. Without his DF, Law still has enough skill to counter Overheat with his sword better than Luffy could with his body, parry with Doflamingo's strings, duel with Smoker's Jitte, and even slice through Doffy's Haki with his sword.

 

[chopstickchakra]

That's actually not true, since he's left to just Counter Shock, Gamma Knife, and Mez as attacks without his sword. While GK might be his best technique, his fighting style heavily involves needing his sword. Take away Law's sword, and he's ****ed. Without his DF, Law still has enough skill to counter Overheat with his sword better than Luffy could with his body, parry with Doflamingo's strings, duel with Smoker's Jitte, and even slice through Doffy's Haki with his sword.

He also has shambles which is a big part of his offense, creating openings for other attacks. He has Tact which depending on how it's used has been shown to be able to move enemies about the room and bring chunks of earth up to attack. He has Sterben which technically used his sword but it shows he can float objects at will including severed limbs if it got that far so he could use anything within the room as a weapon of sorts with tact. He's not quite as limited as you make him seem. He loses a chunk of his arsenal that he uses the most but he doesn't lose a majority of his arsenal either.

 

[Punk Hazard]

He also has shambles which is a big part of his offense, creating openings for other attacks. He has Tact which depending on how it's used has been shown to be able to move enemies about the room and bring chunks of earth up to attack. He has Sterben which technically used his sword but it shows he can float objects at will including severed limbs if it got that far so he could use anything within the room as a weapon of sorts with tact. He's not quite as limited as you make him seem. He loses a chunk of his arsenal that he uses the most but he doesn't lose a majority of his arsenal.

And what does he do with all of those? He combines them with usages of his sword. DF and sword are 50-50

 

[chopstickchakra]

And what does he do with all of those? He combines them with usages of his sword. DF and sword are 50-50

None of those moves rely on his sword. Shambles he can use with literally anything or anybody. He can cannonball your head he can switch himself with a rock he can switch his enemy with a rock. Shambles isn't only used with his sword. Tact isn't used with his sword at all he flicks his wrist up and people float. He then controls them with his hand. He could lift Navy Battleships with tact.

And it's not 50 50

sword non sword
Amputate Shambles
Scan(non combat) Tact
Radio Knife Mes
Injection Shot Gamma Knife

That's 4 to 5 but since we're talking about being dangerous and scan is non combative then it's 3-5 and 5/8ths is almost 63%. If we count Shambles as part sword as I can see you want to since he uses it after cutting opponents a lot as well as his non sword uses and despite the fact that shambles is operated through hand motions then radio knife which uses part of whatever makes counter shock work as part non sword since it's a combination of amputate and counter shock.

 

[Punk Hazard]

None of those moves rely on his sword. Shambles he can use with literally anything or anybody. He can cannonball your head he can switch himself with a rock he can switch his enemy with a rock. Shambles isn't only used with his sword. Tact isn't used with his sword at all he flicks his wrist up and people float. He then controls them with his hand. He could lift Navy Battleships with tact.

And it's not 50 50

sword non sword
Amputate Shambles
Scan(non combat) Tact
Radio Knife Mes
Injection Shot Gamma Knife

That's 4 to 5 but since we're talking about being dangerous and scan is non combative then it's 3-5 and 5/8ths is almost 63%. If we count Shambles as part sword as I can see you want to since he uses it after cutting opponents a lot as well as his non sword uses and despite the fact that shambles is operated through hand motions then radio knife which uses part of whatever makes counter shock work as part non sword since it's a combination of amputate and counter shock.

I never said they relied on his sword. Law's arsenal works through using his DF in conjunction with his sword. Removing either removes a chunk of his capabilities as a fighter.

Law can't teleport your head off of your body like that. Every effective use of Shambles involves following up or it being preceded by his sword. The only real exceptions have been when he used Gamma Knife.

Law's most used combat technique is Amputate, which he can't do without his sword. His fighting style revolves around using Amputate, Mez and Shambles, one of which relies heavily on his sword and one of which is greatly complimented by usage of his sword.

 

[chopstickchakra]

I never said they relied on his sword. Law's arsenal works through using his DF in conjunction with his sword. Removing either removes a chunk of his capabilities as a fighter.

Law can't teleport your head off of your body like that. Every effective use of Shambles involves following up or it being preceded by his sword. The only real exceptions have been when he used Gamma Knife.

Law's most used combat technique is Amputate, which he can't do without his sword. His fighting style revolves around using Amputate, Mez and Shambles, one of which relies heavily on his sword and one of which is greatly complimented by usage of his sword.

I never said they relied on his sword. Law's arsenal works through using his DF in conjunction with his sword. Removing either removes a chunk of his capabilities as a fighter.

Yes removing either removes a chunk of his capabilities but not an equal chunk. The DF as I've shown is clearly the bigger loss of the two if it were to happen.

Law can't teleport your head off of your body like that. Every effective use of Shambles involves following up or it being preceded by his sword. The only real exceptions have been when he used Gamma Knife.

I didn't say he could, not without using amputate anyway but he can shambles a cannonball over their head like in this video

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. And with Shambles and a hand full of debris Law can essentially do FTG hopping from place to place.