[Discussion] Is Luffy DF Reliant?

[ultraChalk]

Absolutely, he's literally as reliant as a logia except sometimes he'll dodge even normal punches rather than tank them.

 

[keshav31]

So... My argument is that luffy isnt DF reliant. Of course he uses it alot but I dont feel luffy is df reliant compared to how much a logia is DF reliant.

Luffy df doesnt make him stronger (Base wise) as seen when he knocked out bellamy

anyways, I will let you guys decide. Give me reasons to why you feel he is or is not?

Well luffy DF is a defensive type as he need more and more training to make it offensive in his childhood.Because controlling rubber for attack is tough.

 

[ToshiZO]

Does he stretch his **** to piss then yeah it would, see we can both be *******s. Now that that's out of the way, Luffy is reliant on his DF, he could have relied on his DF as a defensive measure only and created/learned a fighting style that doesn't rely on the ability granted from his fruit but he didn't he developed a method based solely on his DF. When Luffy's abilities aren't enough to beat an opponent he uses his DF ability to boost his stats, that's literally the definition of relying on something-using it when you can't accomplish your task without it. If Luffy lost his DF today he would still be an impressive force but he wouldn't be = to what he is now.

Obviously not. Name me a character with a DF who would still be = to what he is without his DF....

 

[TRE MERCER]

Obviously not. Name me a character with a DF who would still be = to what he is without his DF....

Buggy....​

 

[TheHokage]

I don't think it hardly matters, from a young age Luffy's trained himself around his DF ability so of course he's going to use his DF abilities.

The only people who've shown really to be devil fruit reliant are Crocodile and Cabirou.

 

[chopstickchakra]

Obviously not. Name me a character with a DF who would still be = to what he is without his DF....

WB didn't need his DF, it was a nice boost but he showed at MF that he'd have been fine without it.

 

[Punk Hazard]

WB didn't need his DF, it was a nice boost but he showed at MF that he'd have been fine without it.

Whitebeard definitely needed his DF. The only character he damaged without it was Teach. Other than that, everything WB accomplished was due to his DF. Yeah, he had massive physical strength, but that wouldn't have been enough. The Admirals would have mid-diffed him without his DF

 

[chopstickchakra]

Whitebeard definitely needed his DF. The only character he damaged without it was Teach. Other than that, everything WB accomplished was due to his DF. Yeah, he had massive physical strength, but that wouldn't have been enough. The Admirals would have mid-diffed him without his DF

Yes he needs it from time to time and it's easier to do things with it but he wasn't reliant on it, Luffy needs his DF near every fight, WB would have needed his only for the Admirals and a few around them. WB's defense was enough on it's own he didn't need his DF to reduce damage like a Logia or Luffy and his Strength wasn't solely reliant on it either as he had his weapon and his physical power, Luffy incorporates his elasticity into every attack so it isn't the same. Look I've been down this road with you before and it's highly unlikely either of us will bring any evidence or reason to sway the other so let's just leave it at we disagree on this matter. Yes everyone with a DF is better with it than without but they don't all need it for some of them it's just a nice boost. Sabo doesn't really need the Mera Mera but it's a nice addition, even with it he wouldn't beat one of the Admirals yet.

 

[straightup]

I'm pretty sure I heard in the intro these words exactly "luffy, who ate the gum gum fruit and gave him a unique fighting style..." So I'm going to say yes, but it's not a bad thing. He turned what initially appeared as a useless df into a powerhouse

 

[Punk Hazard]

Yes he needs it from time to time and it's easier to do things with it but he wasn't reliant on it, Luffy needs his DF near every fight, WB would have needed his only for the Admirals and a few around them. WB's defense was enough on it's own he didn't need his DF to reduce damage like a Logia or Luffy and his Strength wasn't solely reliant on it either as he had his weapon and his physical power, Luffy incorporates his elasticity into every attack so it isn't the same. Look I've been down this road with you before and it's highly unlikely either of us will bring any evidence or reason to sway the other so let's just leave it at we disagree on this matter. Yes everyone with a DF is better with it than without but they don't all need it for some of them it's just a nice boost. Sabo doesn't really need the Mera Mera but it's a nice addition, even with it he wouldn't beat one of the Admirals yet.

LOL and? Who cares about Sabo, we're talking about Whitebeard. WB was so strong because of his fruit. WB was feared because of his fruit. WB had abilities other than his DF, but to say WB wasn't DF reliant is inaccurate. Unless you can show me an equal or greater number of instances where WB accomplished something significant in battle without using his fruit that you can with instances of him using his fruit, he is DF reliant. For every 10 things WB has done, especially in Marineford, 9 out of them relied on his DF.

 

[ToshiZO]

WB didn't need his DF, it was a nice boost but he showed at MF that he'd have been fine without it.

Nah dude WB without his DF = Weaker than all Admirals/weaker than all Yonkou/ weaker than basically any solidified top tier. You gotta understand what Im trying to say by now. You guys are basically saying everyone is reliant on their DF (which is true if you're looking at it like that), Luffy is not some outlier.

WB without DF = not even close to the worlds strongest man.

Buggy....​

Buggy is so fodder it hardly matters rn, but back in east blue he was ruling simply because of his DF.



Only character you guys coulda named off the top of my head is Sabo, and thats because he JUST attained his DF.

 

[chopstickchakra]

LOL and? Who cares about Sabo, we're talking about Whitebeard. WB was so strong because of his fruit. WB was feared because of his fruit. WB had abilities other than his DF, but to say WB wasn't DF reliant is inaccurate. Unless you can show me an equal or greater number of instances where WB accomplished something significant in battle without using his fruit that you can with instances of him using his fruit, he is DF reliant. For every 10 things WB has done, especially in Marineford, 9 out of them relied on his DF.

Now you've had your rebuttal let us move on. My reasoning won't sway you and your reasoning won't sway me, if you feel the urge to respond feel free I however will be resigning this point from here on out but just to play a little devil's advocate before I do, you said 9 out of 10 right? WB's defense is 1 and his bento Bisento is 2 that's at least 8 out of 10. For someone whose fighting style was so reliant on his DF like you say WB was it's odd he only has a few variations with it, he has 3 moves 2 of which have a variation that's only 5 moves incorporating his DF. Ace on the other hand(who we saw less of or = to of WB) and the Mera Mera has 10 moves 2 of which have variations. Luffy has 3 forms and 33 moves 4 of which have variations(If you don't trust me, and those are just base

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) To be fair though, I am aware that's because Luffy is the MC that he gets way more moves with names.

Nah dude WB without his DF = Weaker than all Admirals/weaker than all Yonkou/ weaker than basically any solidified top tier. You gotta understand what Im trying to say by now. You guys are basically saying everyone is reliant on their DF (which is true if you're looking at it like that), Luffy is not some outlier.

WB without DF = not even close to the worlds strongest man.



Buggy is so fodder it hardly matters rn, but back in east blue he was ruling simply because of his DF.



Only character you guys coulda named off the top of my head is Sabo, and thats because he JUST attained his DF.

I never said he was stronger than them, even with it at his age he was between = and weaker than the Admirals but he didn't rely on it. His fighting style wasn't based solely around it like Luffy's, he had his weapons and his physical power. Also his defense didn't rest on his DF either like Luffy's or a Logia w/o haki. Obviously it boosted him but he didn't need it. The question isn't does the character need it to beat top tier characters, the question was if they were reliant on their fruit and Luffy is much more reliant on his than WB there's no argument to that. You're judging this on is their power level dependent on their DF and to that I agree and say yes, I'm looking at it as if they're fighting style is dependent on it and if WB lost his DF today he'd be ok fighting style wise, Luffy on the other hand would have to learn a whole new method of fighting. Power levels and who can beat who with or without their fruit isn't the intent of my points.

I actually did mention Sabo.

 

[Punk Hazard]

Now you've had your rebuttal let us move on. My reasoning won't sway you and your reasoning won't sway me, if you feel the urge to respond feel free I however will be resigning this point from here on out but just to play a little devil's advocate before I do, you said 9 out of 10 right? WB's defense is 1 and his bento Bisento is 2 that's at least 8 out of 10. For someone whose fighting style was so reliant on his DF like you say WB was it's odd he only has a few variations with it, he has 3 moves 2 of which have a variation that's only 5 moves incorporating his DF. Ace on the other hand(who we saw less of or = to of WB) and the Mera Mera has 10 moves 2 of which have variations. Luffy has 3 forms and 33 moves 4 of which have variations(If you don't trust me, and those are just base

You must be registered for see links

) To be fair though, I am aware that's because Luffy is the MC that he gets way more moves with names.



I never said he was stronger than them, even with it at his age he was between = and weaker than the Admirals but he didn't rely on it. His fighting style wasn't based solely around it like Luffy's, he had his weapons and his physical power. Also his defense didn't rest on his DF either like Luffy's or a Logia w/o haki. Obviously it boosted him but he didn't need it. The question isn't does the character need it to beat top tier characters, the question was if they were reliant on their fruit and Luffy is much more reliant on his than WB there's no argument to that. You're judging this on is their power level dependent on their DF and to that I agree and say yes, I'm looking at it as if they're fighting style is dependent on it and if WB lost his DF today he'd be ok fighting style wise, Luffy on the other hand would have to learn a whole new method of fighting. Power levels and who can beat who with or without their fruit isn't the intent of my points.

I actually did mention Sabo.

WB relying on 3 techniques is still being DF reliant. WB's arsenal and fighting style revolves around his DF far more than his bisento or physical strength. It doesn't matter how much he uses, but how much he uses it.

 

[ToshiZO]

I never said he was stronger than them, even with it at his age he was between = and weaker than the Admirals but he didn't rely on it. His fighting style wasn't based solely around it like Luffy's, he had his weapons and his physical power. Also his defense didn't rest on his DF either like Luffy's or a Logia w/o haki. Obviously it boosted him but he didn't need it. The question isn't does the character need it to beat top tier characters, the question was if they were reliant on their fruit and Luffy is much more reliant on his than WB there's no argument to that. You're judging this on is their power level dependent on their DF and to that I agree and say yes, I'm looking at it as if they're fighting style is dependent on it and if WB lost his DF today he'd be ok fighting style wise, Luffy on the other hand would have to learn a whole new method of fighting. Power levels and who can beat who with or without their fruit isn't the intent of my points.

I actually did mention Sabo.

Thats not how it works. You compare people in the same tier and see if they can beat anyone without the fruit or not.

Luffy can merk people that are mid tiers without any gears just Haki is enough, its the high tiers (his own tier) who would dust him in battle without his fruit. Same goes for WB.

WB can destroy any high tier without his fruit, yet with the top tiers he loses to pretty much all of them without.

All WB did was spam his fruit so I don't know how he's not reliant on it any less than Luffy is. He hardly showed any observation haki, he certainly didn't show any conquerors, and his armament was severely lacking considering even fodders could stab right through him. So I fail to see how he didn't rely on it just as much as Luffy. Does Luffy depend on his fruit for his base stats? Some of them but definitely not all of them: His reaction speed, his endurance (at this point), his stamina (his fruit makes this worst), heck at this point even his movement speed he stays in base mode for the most part (he hardly ever uses full body gears anymore). When he is fighting guys above his level like Doflamingo than you are absolutely correct he becomes completely dependent on his fruit (G4) but otherwise nah atleast not more than any other DF user.

 

[chopstickchakra]

Thats not how it works. You compare people in the same tier and see if they can beat anyone without the fruit or not.

Luffy can merk people that are mid tiers without any gears just Haki is enough, its the high tiers (his own tier) who would dust him in battle without his fruit. Same goes for WB.

WB can destroy any high tier without his fruit, yet with the top tiers he loses to pretty much all of them without.

All WB did was spam his fruit so I don't know how he's not reliant on it any less than Luffy is. He hardly showed any observation haki, he certainly didn't show any conquerors, and his armament was severely lacking considering even fodders could stab right through him. So I fail to see how he didn't rely on it just as much as Luffy. Does Luffy depend on his fruit for his base stats? Some of them but definitely not all of them: His reaction speed, his endurance (at this point), his stamina (his fruit makes this worst), heck at this point even his movement speed he stays in base mode for the most part (he hardly ever uses full body gears anymore). When he is fighting guys above his level like Doflamingo than you are absolutely correct he becomes completely dependent on his fruit (G4) but otherwise nah atleast not more than any other DF user.

@bold do you honestly believe he used armament haki against Squardo's attack? If so we're done here. WB let him stab him. And even without armament haki being discussed let's recap how much damage his dying body took before giving out on him. 267 wounds by swords, 152 wounds by guns, and also being shot with cannons 46 times and punches from Akainu. Because of Luffy's DF he'd never have even received those bullet damages or cannon, which means it's not his actual defense or endurance being showcased against them like WB's was and the 267 blade wounds would have killed him because he hasn't worked on boosting his defense as well as WB because for the most part his DF reduces/negates damage(except blades) and he's relied on the fact he can't/shouldn't get hurt. Now that he knows about Haki that will change and I believe he will stop relying on his DF rebounding damage and he'll start dodging more becoming less reliant on his DF.

I don't know how he's not reliant on it any less than Luffy is

You don't? Ok well if someone is reliant on something for offense and defense and another person is reliant on the same thing for only offense, then you explain to me how they are equally reliant. I'll wait, because I can't explain it any more clearly. Did Wb need to use his DF to boost his base stats like speed and strength the way Luffy did or could he even? The fact Luffy needs to use his DF to accomplish so much is why he's more reliant on his DF than other users, if his defense starts focusing primarily on using CoO to avoid damage then he'll be less reliant on his DF as he'll only rely on it for offense and power boosts but he'd still be more reliant on his fruit then someone who used it solely for offensive purposes.

 

[ToshiZO]

@bold do you honestly believe he used armament haki against Squardo's attack? If so we're done here. WB let him stab him. And even without armament haki being discussed let's recap how much damage his dying body took before giving out on him. 267 wounds by swords, 152 wounds by guns, and also being shot with cannons 46 times and punches from Akainu. Because of Luffy's DF he'd never have even received those bullet damages or cannon, which means it's not his actual defense or endurance being showcased against them like WB's was and the 267 blade wounds would have killed him because he hasn't worked on boosting his defense as well as WB because for the most part his DF reduces/negates damage(except blades) and he's relied on the fact he can't/shouldn't get hurt. Now that he knows about Haki that will change and I believe he will stop relying on his DF rebounding damage and he'll start dodging more becoming less reliant on his DF.

Spoiler

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This was happening throughout the war. Even Vergo wouldn't let these attacks get to him. And no he didn't let Squard stab him.

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he got weaker because in the past an attack like that wouldn't have hit him.

You don't? Ok well if someone is reliant on something for offense and defense and another person is reliant on the same thing for only offense, then you explain to me how they are equally reliant. I'll wait, because I can't explain it any more clearly. Did Wb need to use his DF to boost his base stats like speed and strength the way Luffy did or could he even? The fact Luffy needs to use his DF to accomplish so much is why he's more reliant on his DF than other users, if his defense starts focusing primarily on using CoO to avoid damage then he'll be less reliant on his DF as he'll only rely on it for offense and power boosts but he'd still be more reliant on his fruit then someone who used it solely for offensive purposes.

Luffy doesn't need his DF for Defence, its just something that puts him on another level (do you see a pattern here, WB doesnt need his DF for offence but its what puts him at that next level)....I can bet you anything that Luffy has a better defense than Sanji regardless of his rubber properties, and thats really impressive since Luffy has his DF to possibly fall back on whereas Sanji doesn't.

Speed again thats what puts him at that next level. Without G2 Luffy manages just fine he dodged a point blank liquid explosion in his

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And his reactions and

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which has nothing to do with his DF once again.

And I agree and understand that Luffy is one of the only people who has a mode where most his base stats are affected, but if you look at it from a general perspective, it all comes down to the same thing when it comes to WB and Luffy (Don't need their DF against opponents a tier below but need it against opponents of the same level). And would you also consider Rob Lucci reliant on his DF because he has a mode where his stats get buffed as well? Cause I certainly don't. Rob Lucci was a seasoned fighter who had much more than his DF. And Luffy is in the same category as him. Guys that are truly reliant on their DF are the Crocodiles and Enels of this verse definitely not Luffy, and if Luffy is than so is any other DF user.

And besides I was addressing your point where you said Luffy would not be at the same level without his DF which was wrong to say because that applies to basically all DF users.

 

[chopstickchakra]

Spoiler

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This was happening throughout the war. Even Vergo wouldn't let these attacks get to him. And no he didn't let Squard stab him.

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he got weaker because in the past an attack like that wouldn't have hit him.


Luffy doesn't need his DF for Defence, its just something that puts him on another level (do you see a pattern here, WB doesnt need his DF for offence but its what puts him at that next level)....I can bet you anything that Luffy has a better defense than Sanji regardless of his rubber properties, and thats really impressive since Luffy has his DF to possibly fall back on whereas Sanji doesn't.

Speed again thats what puts him at that next level. Without G2 Luffy manages just fine he dodged a point blank liquid explosion in his

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And his reactions and

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which has nothing to do with his DF once again.

And I agree and understand that Luffy is one of the only people who has a mode where most his base stats are affected, but if you look at it from a general perspective, it all comes down to the same thing when it comes to WB and Luffy (Don't need their DF against opponents a tier below but need it against opponents of the same level). And would you also consider Rob Lucci reliant on his DF because he has a mode where his stats get buffed as well? Cause I certainly don't. Rob Lucci was a seasoned fighter who had much more than his DF. And Luffy is in the same category as him. Guys that are truly reliant on their DF are the Crocodiles and Enels of this verse definitely not Luffy, and if Luffy is than so is any other DF user.

And besides I was addressing your point where you said Luffy would not be at the same level without his DF which was wrong to say because that applies to basically all DF users.

That first page shows he let the attacks happen though. He laughs in their face and says you think that's enough to kill me, he stood there and (one of the actual few showings of the word for how much it's thrown around) tanked the attack putting up no effort to stop or reduce the damages.

The Marco panel is a compelling argument in your favor I'll admit and the only rebuttal is interpretation and feeling but an in manga character's opinion isn't always definitive truth as they rarely or never know as much information as us the reader. This may just be me but when I read/saw those moments between Squardo and Whitebeard I got the impression WB knew something was wrong(not necessarily that he was going to attack him but maybe) and he let him do it so he could convince him. That may be giving more to WB than Oda intended but idk that's just the impression I got from it.

The Luffy panel where you said he dodged a liquid explosion in base shows he was in gear 2nd he says Jet Stamp. Or are you going to argue the point that he evaded in base and then went in gear 2nd just to kick Caesar?

About the observation haki point, I didn't say they had anything to do with his DF I said he needs to utilize them more often as his defense rather than his DF.