[Discussion] If sasuke stayed with team 7 do u think he would've been stronger then he was/is..
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I did. He obviously wouldn't, so he left. He trained for years in Konoha through the academy and elite ninja Kakashi's tutelage. Yet he felt the gap between him and Itachi remained so big that it hadn't even changed since the massacre.oh realy thx i didn't know that..oh wait how about u just answer teh kestion..
After Orochimaru nearly destroyed the village and killed their strongest ninja, Itachi easily defeated Kakashi. Who told Sasuke not to use the big power boost Orochimaru gave him - the Curse Mark, & whose training led to him losing to Gaara, Itachi & Orochimaru's Curse Mark wielding subordinates. Who like Gaara and Itachi told Sasuke his hatred is too weak to achieve revenge. The same revenge Kakashi told him to give up. Whereas Orochimaru was offering him more power to achieve it.
Nothing suggest he would have gotten stronger in Konoha.
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Uchihaa Sasuke
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Good question.
Yes, I think he would have been stronger if he stayed in the village than with Orochimaru through rivalry with Naruto and training under Kakashi.
As an example of the rivalry boosts: Naruto pushed himself, out of rivalry with Sasuke from what I understand, and summoned Gamabunta out of his own chakra pool without the fox even though he couldn't do that before and beat Gaara. He also learned the Rasengan to match Chidori and noticeably could keep up with Sasuke's speed after the training in the next arcs.
Sasuke also pushed himself to match BSM Naruto when he felt he was being left behind, unlocked complete Susanoo, and matched Obito's speed when he couldn't do that before. All the tomoe upgrades also came from that.
Also, it is not fair to say that training under Kakashi failed when he trained with him only for one month or so (which was enough for him to reach Lee's speed level without the weights, who's the fastest running-wise among the genins and beat base Gaara who was the strongest Genin, and only beaten by Shukaku, mainly due to going out of chakra). Given more time, Kakashi would have made him surpass the other kids AND Itachi. He was impatient. Kakashi is not really below Itachi. I'd say 3t Kakashi > 3t Itachi, and Kakashi with a fully mastered MS > both MS Itachi and Orochimaru.
Kakashi is an underrated dude.
Yes, I think he would have been stronger if he stayed in the village than with Orochimaru through rivalry with Naruto and training under Kakashi.
As an example of the rivalry boosts: Naruto pushed himself, out of rivalry with Sasuke from what I understand, and summoned Gamabunta out of his own chakra pool without the fox even though he couldn't do that before and beat Gaara. He also learned the Rasengan to match Chidori and noticeably could keep up with Sasuke's speed after the training in the next arcs.
Sasuke also pushed himself to match BSM Naruto when he felt he was being left behind, unlocked complete Susanoo, and matched Obito's speed when he couldn't do that before. All the tomoe upgrades also came from that.
Also, it is not fair to say that training under Kakashi failed when he trained with him only for one month or so (which was enough for him to reach Lee's speed level without the weights, who's the fastest running-wise among the genins and beat base Gaara who was the strongest Genin, and only beaten by Shukaku, mainly due to going out of chakra). Given more time, Kakashi would have made him surpass the other kids AND Itachi. He was impatient. Kakashi is not really below Itachi. I'd say 3t Kakashi > 3t Itachi, and Kakashi with a fully mastered MS > both MS Itachi and Orochimaru.
Kakashi is an underrated dude.
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He ran out of chakra from the shadow clones so Kurama's must have been used. Friendship boost motivated him to create 1000 clones though.
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>Kept up with his speed
The rooftop was a small enclosed field that Naruto quickly filled with clones. Sasuke was unable to speed blitz him as he did Gaara. Didn't have that problem at the Valley. Naruto only landed one hit without Kurama (excluding the beginning where Sasuke let him) & that took several clones while Sasuke was mid-air. No footspeed involved.
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Fought Gaara - lost. Using Curse Mark earlier, instead of as a last resort which paralyzed him, likely would have led to victory.
Fought Sound Ninja - lost. CM2 which he could only gain from Orochimaru places him above them (aside from Kidomaru arguably).
On second thought Kakashi copied over 1000 jutsu. Based on which ones he taught Sasuke he could potentially be stronger, but instead of focusing solely on training, as he was with Orochimaru, he would be dividing his time with missions.
How is Kakashi above Itachi?
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Uchihaa Sasuke
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Base Gaara was decisively losing to Sasuke as I've said. What really won against him was the Shukaku and that's due to Sasuke going out of chakra.
And the sound 4 it was stated that Sasuke was still recovering from a comma and it was 4 on 1. They couldn't beat him if it was 1 on 1. At least most of them would've lost.
I don't see how Orochimaru who has nothing to do with Sasuke is better master than Kakashi who is a lightning and a Sharingan user and could have shared his abilities with him. From what I know also Sasuke developed all his chidori variations alone without Orochimaru. Created Kirin alone as well. Him and Kakashi could have developed their lightning techniques better if it was 2 working on it.
As for Itachi, I'm the one who should ask, how is Itachi above Kakashi? 3t Kakashi has dozes of jutsus in base Sharingan what does Itachi have in base? And Kamui one-shots MS Itachi and Susanoo.
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Sure, but the end result is him losing for not using the power Orochimaru gave him sooner.
Maybe if they remained in base, but with Orochimaru's power-up they still win.
In theory Kakashi is better, but Sasuke made greater progress with Orochimaru. In their first meeting he gained the Curse Mark. Which gave him a power boost akin to 5 Gates Lee. In a day Sasuke went from being unable to keep up with base Lee with his weights on, to defeating the Sound ninja who beat him. Showing strength & speed Lee did with the Gates. Later, the day he left Konoha he gained a x10 boost with CM2. That allowed the Sound 4 to wreck Minato's old bodyguards.
In regards to tutelage he gained swordsmenship, snakes, & combat experience from Orochimaru.
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Kakashi lost to a massively holding back Itachi. Placed in a coma for a month til Tsunade saved him. Then he needed Naruto's help to combat a clone with 30 percent of Itachi's power that was meant to stall.
Itachi was basically giving him a training session with that unnecessary Tsukuyomi usage. Stating only an Uchiha can counter it. In other words train Sasuke better. We already discussed how Sasuke countered it before. Boosting his Sharingan with a certain power he got from a certain someone.
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Kamui had too much charge time. Kakashi needed Naruto to stall against Deidara. Even then he was able to dodge. Kakashi wanted to warp his entire body.
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Uchihaa Sasuke
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Sure, but he was still defeating the strongest one in the chunin exams. Shukaku, who was still getting overpowered by Chidori, doesn't count or matter.
Unless they can keep up with his speed and his Sharingan, the Curse Mark is useless. The Curse Mark and arguably Senjutsu in general don't amp speed. It boosts durability, physical strength, and jutsu potency, and all that is useless because they can't keep up with his speed and 1 chidori will send them to the afterlife.
I think Sage Mode also only amps reaction speed like the sharingan, but not speed itself.
I'm not sure about the 5 gates Lee thing, the CM is not equivalent to the gates. You keep mentioning the CM, but It is the weakest form of physical amp I can think of, and as I've said the CM doesn't amp speed. There are no statements nor feats regarding its speed amp. The dude could keep up with and defeat Haku in speed from before that.
Sasuke himself as a kid overpowered the CM and suppressed it several times.
Could've learned all that without him
Using the Mangekyou Sharingan to defeat 3t Kakashi is not holding back in my opinion. Could he keep up with Kakashi without the MS? I highly doubt that. The dude is fodder without the Sharingan. He hasn't shown a single formidable Jutsu without it.
About the boost he gained from certain someone, he already overpowered and defeated that certain someone himself in his own dimension and he is shown in the real world that he has not activated the CM. In the databook as well it was stated he beat the MS due to his hatred, the CM is nowhere mentioned.
I said peak MS Kakashi. From what I remember Kakashi was avoiding using his MS even though he unlocked since he was a kid which is why it is not refined, but Kamui wrecks all versions of Itachi.
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Naruto X Hunter
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If it didn't count/matter Sasuke wouldn't consider it a big deal.
Sasuke couldn't even block, let alone evade Lee, who the Sound ninja were able to counter, but with the Curse Mark he blitzed Zaku & scared off Dosu after they dominated Lee. CM is a chakra amp. Chakra enhances speed.
Doesn't mean he would. Sasuke progressed Sharingan & lightning style beyond Kakashi. Creating Chidori variants Kakashi hadn't & the ultimate lightning jutsu. Kakashi needed Jiraiya's seal to suppress Kurama. Scared of four tails. Whereas Sasuke used Sharingan to do it before he even reached one. Orochimaru provided combat experience Kakashi wouldn't, a more diverse skillset & a massive power amp.
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Doesn't mean he's weak without it. Even if he was, taking it away isn't a good argument.
The CM clearly played a part. Otherwise there would be no reason to use it. It also helped him not only defeat Orochimaru, but seal him to gain his power. Which was needed to overcome Amaterasu.
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I always thought he reawakened it during the time skip. Akin to Sasuke awakening Sharingan during the massacre but never noticing & reawakening it against Haku. Nonetheless, Kamui has no barring on his training with Sasuke.
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Uchihaa Sasuke
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Because of his ego, but that was a tailed beast and he doesn't need to beat a tailed beast at that age.
Sasuke was fighting without the Sharingan at first and still could keep up with Lee's speed, but the Taijutsu that came from years of training was superb. When he used his Sharingan, Lee went for the strongest move in his arsenal. And Sasuke did dodge one of Lee's attacks without the Sharingan.
Tenten also mentioned that Lee wasn't going all out against the sound ninja.
Also, there are no statements or feats for the CM's speed amp. Its chakra is weaker than Sasuke's base chakra, not only the CM but all Senjutsu except for Six Paths Senjutsu don't amp speed.
Sasuke was working harder than Kakashi to develop himself and his sharingan is amped by his hatred. Kakashi didn't have a reason to train that hard. If Sasuke stayed he would have had a purpose to beat Orochimaru who is hunting for the Sasuke's Sharingan.
The water clone is equivalent to Kakashi's lightning clone with me being generous. It is just one of Kakashi's many Jutsus. Taking the MS away is kind of fair. I'm comparing 3t Kakashi with 3t Itachi and 1 MS Kakashi with MS Itachi. So obviously I should take the MS away from Itachi if I'm going to take it away from Kakashi to compare them.
Like I said before CM itself was overpowered by kid Sasuke. It's weaker than his own chakra thus it makes no difference. And I'm pretty sure that the people who were absorbed by Orochimaru prior to Sasuke also had it.
Im not sure if anything that happens in Tsukuyomi counts. He was shown not to have CM activated in real world as I've said. It's just a genjutsu. And if it was the CM, the Databook or Zetsu would have just said the CM did it. There's no mention of it. And sure Orochimaru was needed to survive Amaterasu.
He was traumatized like Sasuke which is why he wasn't using it from what I understood. The MS doesn't have effect on the training I'm just showing that Kakashi is > Itachi.
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kutos for u..i like ur opinion for todey..u seem less of sasuke fapboy..also inteet saski would've been stronger if he stayed with naroto uzunaji like learning sage mode and all..
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A win is a win. No excuses.
He should if Itachi is stronger than it. The entire point of entering the exams was to test himself.
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He couldn't even tell whether he was using ninjutsu, genjutsu, or taijutsu.
It wasn't neccesary.
I forgot about that.
Clearly. He had his weights on. Still a noteworthy defeat. Lee made no excuses. Placing Sasuke above.
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The entire point of the battle was to show off his new power-up & progress him toward Orochimaru after learning it was necessary to leave Konoha for him. Lee, someone who outsped Sasuke, fighting the Sound ninja before him wasn't an accident.
Due to Kakashi he nearly gave up revenge. Took the Sound Ninja to persuade him otherwise.
I was referring to his speed which Kakashi remarked. Couldn't even see him form hand seals.
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He suppressed a portion of CM1. He entered CM2 for Tsukuyomi.
He used it & was then shown breaking out. It's that simple.
Doubt it. Otherwise he would have used it against Orochimaru & Itachi. Maybe even Zabuza & Haku given his team was in danger.
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Uchihaa Sasuke
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What a shame to be defeated by a tailed beast at the age of 12 due to going out of chakra.
He wouldn't know if Itachi is stronger than it or not.
Doesn't change the fact he dodged an attack and reacted to another without even using the Sharingan.
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When he activated the Sharingan, Lee went for his strongest move.
Later, before even going through any training, replicated Lee's attack, which Neji and Tenten failed to master. I'd assume that would require having similar stats as Lee, at least with the weights on, and he did that while weakened as well.
He wouldn't have used it if it wasn't necessary.
Sasuke lost largely because he underestimated Lee.
Not because he had the weights on, but because he wasn't fighting them alone.
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Ignoring that these guys have already been drained by fighting other people and not at full power and that Sasuke woke up recharged by the CM, you haven't really presented any solid proof that CM provides a speed amp. No statements and no solid feats. Sasuke was faster than Haku from before that who's most definitely faster than those guys and I already presented a proof that Sasuke had a comparable speed to Lee with the weights from before that.
Also, have these guys outmatched Lee in speed specifically? Are battles decided by speed alone?
Yeah, that's impressive assuming that speed at weaving signs means he's just as fast in all the other categories which is false.
He did that in a genjutsu of his own making.
Again, it was shown in the real world that he wasn't using it (in both the Orochimaru feat and the Itachi feat) and it wasn't mentioned by either the Databook or Zetsu.
As I've said he suppressed the CM as a 12 year old kid. The CM's chakra is weaker than his.
Doubt what? We were shown he unlocked it when he killed Rin by accident. They can have the Sharingan and not know about it.
Sageof7Path
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Shame in regards to his goal. Itachi is the benchmark. Not a far weaker Jinchuriki.
Not the Shikaku Sasuke didn't face, but he clearly is it's Jinchuriki.
Shows how outclassed he was. He was stunned it was pure taijutsu instead of an illusion or ninjutsu.
Lee always intended on finishing him with it. You seem to be unaware of what a deranged monster he was.
Good point. I'll pay more attention in my upcoming reread.
Yes he would.
Links don't work. Nonetheless, on second thought, he outsped them til he wore himself out from forward lotus.
You're denying the obvious. As I said, chakra enhances speed.
Not only weaved the signs but cast the jutsu without him seeing while pulling out shuriken as a distraction.
Which reflects reality. Since they know they're in genjutsu why not make themselves invincible if possible?
Manga>Databook. What was the point of using it then? Ascetics?
That he didn't use it til Part Two because of trauma.
Still stronger than Naruto & Sakura.
Uchihaa Sasuke
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outclassed by the taijutsu's advanced technique not the speed itself as he was shown to dodge and block.
Trying to hype Lee because of one victory he had against Sasuke is pathetic.
If Sasuke can match his speed without even using the Sharingan, he would've stomped him with it. Hence, why he went for his strongest attack, which he was aware from the start he will be forced to use it because he is fighting a talented dude.
I don't care.
They didn't tag him or dodge him once because they didn't have a comparable speed, unlike Sasuke.
I'm not denying anything, I'm simply asking for proof that the CM enhances speed, and you failed to present any. If more chakra means higher stats, Naruto would outmatch Kakashi as a kid, and Killer Bee would be faster than the Raikage.
Speed enhancement is neither mentioned in the databook nor in the manga as one of the CM's benefits, and it doesn't have any feats whatsoever. So where have you got that idea from?
And as I've said, the dude defeated the undefeated Haku in speed, outmatching those guys in speed is nothing.
Why does he need a distraction? That's an anti-feat for the claimed speed.
If he was as fast as you claim him to be, he would've killed or knocked them down easily with Taijutsu while Kisame watches instead of having to use Tsukuyomi to defeat Kakashi and blind his eyes further.
Also, that entire "Itachi scales to KCM 1 Naruto" is false. Naruto was weakened and was holding back against him
You wish. It is Itachi's own Tsukuyomi. There were probably no hand signs involved at all.
In the real world, he was getting tagged left and right while trying to dodge.
They would've given it credit if it actually had a significant role.
He was releasing his chakra which the CM is part of. In Orochimaru's case, he was taken as a hostage inside Sasuke's Curse Mark. The CM is inferior as he overpowered it even while weakened in part 1, and he did that several times not a one time thing. Later also overpowered Danzo's which was probably enhanced by Hashirama cells.
Indra's reincarnation and all.
He was probably not aware he had it. Sasuke didn't know he had it while fighting Haku.
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Sageof7Path
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No He would most certainly not be stronger than either of them
Without orochimaru or itachi Sasuke gets like no power ups lmfao.
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No one learned anything from Kaka, if Sasuke stayed his skills would have been severely underdeveloped.