[Debate] If Abortion Isnt Murder Why Are Killers Charged With Double Homicide?

[Prince Lucifer]

Once inside her body it is her embryo.
And since it is in her body, it is also a part of her body.
Thus her decision.

But you said.. Another being.

Whike the woman has to carry another being inside her for 9 months.

 

[Solidus Solidus Solidus]

Am I sexist? When did I ever speak against either ***? Surely you recognized my comment that ''Each party plays a role'' does that sound sexist? You're being biased against men, Lol..

Key Note, ANOTHER BEING..

Another Being INSIDE HER BODY, INSIDE HER EMBRYO . And yes I'm calling you a sexist because your whole argument is based on men's sperm. You talk like it's the shit.

You just QUOTE and comment on parts you feel like you can answer to but you don't understand that women go through pain during pregnancy.

 

[Solidus Solidus Solidus]

But you said.. Another being.

A tapeworm is also a being. Once it is inside you, you want to get rid of it, don't you?

Why is it your decision then? It's a living being.

 

[FreakensteinAG]

Why doesn't the dad have a right?

Because he contributes roughly 0.1% of the embryo's entire conception. The 99.9% of the embryo's conception is burdened to the mother, who has to spend 9 months expelling her own energy and resources housing the embryo to full term. The decision to terminate the embryo resides in the mother, due to the already stated fact that the embryo is taking up residence in the mother's uterus. The embryo isn't leeching resources off the father, nor is the father burdened with the embryo's parasitic relationship, is he? No. It's the mother who is burdened with it. Therefore, it is the mother's sole decision to either keep the embryo to full term or terminate it.

The real issue is at what stage(s) can the mother terminate the embryo. Only people stuck in the mindset of 1950s America where the men had all the power in the household believe they should have rights over the embryo as well, which is wholeheartedly wrong.

Extra: Men have the full rights to whether or not they choose to have a vasectomy, while the women have the full rights to whether or not they choose to have a uterectomy.

 

[Prince Lucifer]

Another Being INSIDE HER BODY, INSIDE HER EMBRYO . And yes I'm calling you a sexist because your whole argument is based on men's sperm. You talk like it's the shit.

You just QUOTE and comment on parts you feel like you can answer to but you don't understand that women go through pain during pregnancy.

So.. The women going through pain during pregnancy negates the rights of a man whose actions caused her to experience the pain in the full place, what kind of argument is that? That's just faulty as saying the deliveryman has rights to the things you ordered online because he has to go through all that hard work of receiving the items, going the distance from where he works to your place to deliver your goods. does all that hard work gives him right to your stuff?

 

[Prince Lucifer]

Because he contributes roughly 0.1% of the embryo's entire conception. The 99.9% of the embryo's conception is burdened to the mother, who has to spend 9 months expelling her own energy and resources housing the embryo to full term. The decision to terminate the embryo resides in the mother, due to the already stated fact that the embryo is taking up residence in the mother's uterus. The embryo isn't leeching resources off the father, nor is the father burdened with the embryo's parasitic relationship, is he? No. It's the mother who is burdened with it. Therefore, it is the mother's sole decision to either keep the embryo to full term or terminate it.

The real issue is at what stage(s) can the mother terminate the embryo. Only people stuck in the mindset of 1950s America where the men had all the power in the household believe they should have rights over the embryo as well, which is wholeheartedly wrong.

Extra: Men have the full rights to whether or not they choose to have a vasectomy, while the women have the full rights to whether or not they choose to have a uterectomy.

So do I forget everything School taught me and listen to a stranger on Narutobase.net?

 

[FreakensteinAG]

So.. The women going through pain during pregnancy negates the rights of a man whose actions caused her to experience the pain in the full place, what kind of argument is that? That's just faulty as saying the deliveryman has rights to the things you ordered online because he has to go through all that hard work of receiving the items, going the distance from where he works to your place to deliver your goods. does all that hard work gives him right to your stuff?

False equivalence fallacy, the things you ordered online are not the deliveryman's things.

So do I forget everything School taught me and listen to a stranger on Narutobase.net?

School taught you that a man knocking up a woman has 50% rights over the embryo, while the woman who got knocked up and has to spend 9 months expelling energy and resources housing the embryo only has 50% rights over the embryo?

Yeah, maybe you have a shitty school teacher. How about you listen to me, a Biologist, and dismiss the discount teacher your school has to teach you? That way you can learn much more from me.

 

[Prince Lucifer]

False equivalence fallacy, the things you ordered online are not the deliveryman's things.

But according to your logic, he does, because he has to go through all that pain to deliver the goods.

 

[Punk Hazard]

In my opinion, abortion until a certain point(I think it's before the first trimester ends or something like that) isn't murder, but it's still wrong save for a handful of scenarios. I don't think it should be labelled double homicide, but it should still be considered a crime.

It's the woman's right to termination, not the man's.

That's a pretty unbalanced way of looking at it. It's just as much his as it is hers.

u killed a pregnant woman and her baby. that's different from a pregnant woman consenting to terminate a pregnancy. not saying if I agree or disagree with abortion but this should be a no brainer

It's really not to very honest. If you say the outside party has killed the baby, then the inside party, the mother, is doing the same thing. "Consenting to terminate pregnancy" is just a fancy way of saying that an outside party didn't kill the baby, an inside party did.

Not that I'm saying that abortion is murder, I don't believe it is until a certain point, but you can't say that when another person does it, it's murder, and then when the mother does it, it's some fancy term that is no longer murder. Either it is, or it isn't. Being the mother or being some outside party doesn't change that.

 

[FreakensteinAG]

But according to your logic, he does, because he has to go through all that pain to deliver the goods.

Lucy, protip: when it is a verified fallacy, you don't pursue the matter, you apologize and move on.

That's a pretty unbalanced way of looking at it. It's just as much his as it is hers.

The thing we have been stating this whole time in this thread is: Yes the man contributed to fertilization, BUT, because the woman has to take care of the embryo and expel energy and resources for 9 months, she has far more say in the fate of the embryo than the man does, who does not have to go through such burdens.

 

[Solidus Solidus Solidus]

So.. The women going through pain during pregnancy negates the rights of a man whose actions caused her to experience the pain in the full place, what kind of argument is that? That's just faulty as saying the deliveryman has rights to the things you ordered online because he has to go through all that hard work of receiving the items, going the distance from where he works to your place to deliver your goods. does all that hard work gives him right to your stuff?

And that's why I called you a sexist. Your example (really bad) just implied that the "stuff" inside the woman belongs to the man. Which is infact not true. Comparing the burden of a parasitic relationship to the burden of a deliveryman is pathetic.

Again, when pregnancy causes danger to a woman's body the doctor asks the woman if she might terminate the pregnancy not the man.

And even if her life isnt at risk. If she can't take the burden of the physical and emotional pain caused by it she definitely do not has to ask the man for permission.

 

[Pride]

And that's why I called you a sexist. Your example (really bad) just implied that the "stuff" inside the woman belongs to the man. Which is infact not true. Comparing the burden of a parasitic relationship to the burden a deliveryman has to go through is pathetic.

Again, when pregnancy causes danger to a woman's body the doctor asks the woman if she might terminate the pregnancy not the man.

And even if her life isnt at risk. If she can't take the burden of the physical and emotional pain caused by it she definitely do not has to ask the man for permission.

How can you be so selfish and ignorant towards the man? You can not create a baby without sperm. He should have a say.

 

[FreakensteinAG]

How can you be so selfish and ignorant towards the man? You can not create a baby without sperm. He should have a say.

Compromise: the man has 0.1% of a say. After all, the sperm is a non-sentient cell only several micrometers long, while the woman develops the embryo, who grows in size and sentience as time passes, therefore gets far most of the say. Deal?

 

[Punk Hazard]

Lucy, protip: when it is a verified fallacy, you don't pursue the matter, you apologize and move on.



The thing we have been stating this whole time in this thread is: Yes the man contributed to fertilization, BUT, because the woman has to take care of the embryo and expel energy and resources for 9 months, she has far more say in the fate of the embryo than the man does, who does not have to go through such burdens.

One can argue that taking care of the baby for 18 years also takes an emotional, mental, physical, and financial toll on the father, especially if the mother decides not to be involved and he does it alone. Completely fair trade off for carrying a baby for 9 months and then having nothing to do with it again once birthed.

 

[demon of the leaf]

I always thought it was pretty duel standard if we convicted a killer with a double murder if he or she kills a pregnet woman and not call an abortion murder

 

[FreakensteinAG]

One can argue that taking care of the baby for 18 years also takes an emotional, mental, physical, and financial toll on the father, especially if the mother decides not to be involved and he does it alone. Completely fair trade off for carrying a baby for 9 months and then having nothing to do with it again once birthed.

That is after the baby is born and is therefore the responsibility of both parents. This I wholeheartedly agree is 50% both the father and mother's rights. However, as long as the embryo/fetus is housed in the mother taking her resources and burdening her, she has most if not all the rights to the embryo.

 

[Solidus Solidus Solidus]

How can you be so selfish and ignorant towards the man? You can not create a baby without sperm. He should have a say.

But who suffers from the pregnancy at all?
Who has to share energy 270 days straight on?
Who suffers from physical and emotional pain?

And don't get me started wirh giving birth. That's like something we will never understand and that's why I'm saying men owns 1% of what is inside the woman's body.

I'm not ignorant at all. I'm just not getting it how it was such a hard work for the man to plant his seed, you guys are talking like it was something really bothersome to the man to cum inside a woman.

 

[Prince Lucifer]

And that's why I called you a sexist. Your example (really bad) just implied that the "stuff" inside the woman belongs to the man. Which is infact not true. Comparing the burden of a parasitic relationship to the burden a deliveryman has to go through is pathetic.

Again, when pregnancy causes danger to a woman's body the doctor asks the woman if she might terminate the pregnancy not the man.

And even if her life isnt at risk. If she can't take the burden of the physical and emotional pain caused by it she definitely do not has to ask the man for permission.

No, it's not pathetic, your argument that a woman going through pain for 9 months gives her right to the fruition of a sperm that does not belong to her is pathetic AND SEXIST, which you ironically accuse me of being and my comparison to a deliveryman is perfect because both pregnant women and a deliveryman are delivers, there is no fallacy in that comparison, with the woman's case, it's a child, with the deliveryman it's whatever you ordered,

Again, when pregnancy causes danger to a woman's body the doctor asks the woman if she might terminate the pregnancy not the man.

So.. What? That doesn't negate my arguments.

And even if her life isnt at risk. If she can't take the burden of the physical and emotional pain caused by it she definitely do not has to ask the man for permission.

This is a possibility scenario, if the possibility of non-risk plays out, what do you say then?

 

[Punk Hazard]

That is after the baby is born and is therefore the responsibility of both parents. This I wholeheartedly agree is 50% both the father and mother's rights. However, as long as the embryo/fetus is housed in the mother taking her resources and burdening her, she has most if not all the rights to the embryo.

It does not have to be. Once the baby is born, if the mother doesn't want it, she can remove herself from the picture. Maybe pay some child support because, after all, a father still has to pay child support if he didn't want the child and the mother went through with the pregnancy.

It's also not as though the father is unburdened by the pregnancy. When a woman is pregnant, she cannot work and exert herself the same way she can when she isn't pregnant, hence why maternity leave is a thing during pregnancies. The father then provides support and aid to the mother, who cannot do so for herself after a certain point.

You also cannot ignore that 18 years of physical, mental, financial, and emotional exertion to support a growing child and yourself isn't more exertion than 8 months of pregnancy. You can say that the father isn't as exerted DURING pregnancy, but raising a child requires FAR more exertion than housing a child during pregnancy if not for the far more intense time span. Then there is also teaching the child, making sure the child is educated, making sure the child is disciplined, etc., which can all be broken into more and more tasks. You're laughably wrong if you think a pregnancy is as hard as raising a child. Difficult? You bet your ass its damn difficult, but not more difficult.

 

[slimreaper]

That is after the baby is born and is therefore the responsibility of both parents. This I wholeheartedly agree is 50% both the father and mother's rights. However, as long as the embryo/fetus is housed in the mother taking her resources and burdening her, she has most if not all the rights to the embryo.

Then she has no right to petition for child support if the father wants nothing to do with the kid.

Sure she can have the embryo, the man should get 100% of the say on his finances if thats the way we're breaking it down