How strong is Chiyo? As i see it . . .

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To be more thorough:
IF Chiyo was stronger than Rasa, why wasn't she made Kazekage, the Shadow of Wind?

First, allow me to present why i think she may be stronger than Rasa.

The Sannin were known as the strongest in the world, stronger even than Kage. The reason for the Sannin being respected started with them surviving against Hanzo, who then recognised their power and named them thusly. Chiyo herself matched this when we are told she clashed several times with him. Hanzo himself solidifies this achievement when he says to Mifune: "then why are you still alive?", so as to say that anyone who clashes with him suffers certain death.

Secondly, Chiyo was a rival to Tsunade in the war days. Now their rivalry is based on Tsunade finding a way to make antidotes for the poisons of Chiyo. That poisoning and antidotes are their specialties suggests that in a straight fight, Chiyo is stronger.

Since the Sannin were known as above kage level, this puts Chiyo in the same breath. That Orochimaru killed Rasa solidifies this. Even as Rasa is shown alongside the strongest kage in history, no one claims them above the Sannin so that limit stands.

Another important point is that Choza Akimichi, a veteran, claims Tsunade being a part of the Five Kage guarantees victory againsr Madara. Of course he is quickly refuted by her ex boyfriend, but this speaks to what is expected of her. Not simply her, but compared to four other Kage and at her current age. Her current age there is not only an old lady who specialises in close quarters combat (so physically weaker than her prime), but specifically one who has been idling in bed for days and before that had been basically a clerk for many years. So considering those factors, a prime Tsunade would be much stronger in straight combat. So if Chiyo compares to and even beats a prime Tsunade, she is then implied much stronger than the other kage.

So by comparison, Chiyo is along side the Sannin as being superior in combat to Kage.

Then we go by her showings, which back this up.

She fought and used impressive powers against Sasori. Sasori is an Akatsuki (generally above Beast Host level, which itself is above Kage level). Before that, he somehow managed to defeat the 3rd Kazekage, who himself is implied to be closer to Hanzo than normal Kage. This is with the Sand Village considering it impossible to "so easily" defeat him (such that there was no sign left of his existence or the fight). In a world with talents like Minato, Hiruzen, the Sannin and kage like the 3rd Raikage, 2nd Tsuchikage and 2nd Mizukage, that basically says that even those guys would struggle to no end with him. And of course, the man is directly put above Rasa with his Iron Sand being considered tye most fearsome weapon instead of the Gold Sand used by Rasa. So for Sasori to have done that puts him at a very high level even before he got his other powers. Of course, he then went on to add his 296 puppets and years of experience to the mix. So for Chiyo to even make a blimp of a difference against suchca fellow puts her above the level of kage. That she did so only aided by an inexpreinced 16yr old and with a near complete lack of knowledge on Sasori is even more hype for her. So she did amazing stuff against Sasori.

After that, we see her reanimated and controlled by Kabuto. This is a Kabuto whose lack of knowledge about fighters is noted to hold back their (his) output. Nonetheless, she is also summoned without her puppets, which is reasonably 90% of the power of a puppet master, if a ninjutsu wielding swordman loses 50% of power without their main weapon. Among these powers we have the Mother and Father pupoets which move with speed to slice through wooden constructs like nothing. We also have the Chikamatsu Ten with hax like chakra blades, movement seals and chakra seals, on top of being another ten immortal bodies that she can toss at opponents with speed.

So Chiyo is not only summoned weaker, but without her main power.

Still, she manages her way against a clone of KCM Naruto, whose speed powers are noteworthy against characters like the 3rd Raikage who live off of speed.

So this is Chiyo, someone noted alongside the Sannin and even Hanzo as a legendary combatant.

Now if you look at the first line, this was clearly meant as a setup (to be honest, i don't think i even needed it for my main point, but i figured for the fun of it) for a different thread. However, i figure the topic of her power level is worth discussing itself. I would also like to avoid derailing the main thread with a questioning of this its premise and i know from experience some would question it.

So I'm gonna leave this here for its own discussion. How powerful is Chiyo in your view?

Hanzo / SPoP = Sannin / Akatsuki / CHIYO / Beast Hosts = Tailed Beasts / Legendary Kage / Kage / Clan Specialists / Legendary Jonin . . . roughly speaking.
 
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Nidaime Suiton

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Prime Chiyo has kage level. It was stated that she competed with prime Hanzo, the one who was able to outhsine the three young sannins during the 2nd Great Ninja War.


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She was probably trained by Shamon, the 2nd Kazekage, who according the Databook, was acknowledged in the puppet ninjutsu.

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Shamon, who was basically the equivalent of Tobirama Senju in Suna. As Gaara is the equivalent of Naruto in Suna, or Sasori the equivalent of Orochimaru, I can also say Chiyo was the equivalent of Hiruzen in Suna. Not in power, but they share the same traits. Basically, Suna is a weaker equivalent of Konoha, both village share many common traits, but it just my personnal opinion.


Sasori surpassed Chiyo in the puppet art for one reason : because Sasori doesn't have any moral value. What make Sasori better than Chiyo in the puppet ninjutsu, is that Sasori uses forbidden way to boost his power, for example by using bodies of dead people to transform them into puppets, and transform his own body into puppet. In my opinion; Chiyo would outclass Sasori if she didn't care about moral and reached at 100% her potential.
 
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Sasori surpassed Chiyo in the puppet art for one reason : because Sasori doesn't have any moral value. What make Sasori better than Chiyo in the puppet ninjutsu, is that Sasori uses forbidden way to boost his power, for example by using bodies of dead people to transform them into puppets, and transform his own body into puppet. In my opinion; Chiyo would outclass Sasori if she didn't care about moral and reached at 100% her potentia
Remember his 100 puppets?

Those show superior manipulation (100 puppets at once, compared to 10 for Chiyo) and tactical prowess (100 puppets vs 10). So i think he was just better overall.

Also, going by your parallels, that i myself agree with, Sasori is Orochimaru who is superior to his teacher Hiruzen. So likelwise Sasori should be superior to his teacher Chiyo in their styles.
 

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Remember his 100 puppets?

Those show superior manipulation (100 puppets at once, compared to 10 for Chiyo) and tactical prowess (100 puppets vs 10). So i think he was just better overall.

Also, going by your parallels, that i myself agree with, Sasori is Orochimaru who is superior to his teacher Hiruzen. So likelwise Sasori should be superior to his teacher Chiyo in their styles.
I never said Chiyo was superior than Sasori. But that she could have been, if she didn't care about moral.

If Sasori is superior, it's because he went over moral like using dead people as puppets, and transformed his own body in puppet which probably permit him to physically control more 100 puppets at the same time. Chiyo could do the same, but unlike Sasori, she has moral values.

Same thing with Hiruzen. Orochimaru surpassed Hiruzen because he also didn't care about moral, so he was able to learn powerful but completely immoral and dangerous jutsu, and he dedicated all of his life to increase the mastery of his Ninjutsu while Hiruzen was busied by his Hokage role.

If Hiruzen went 100% full Ninjutsu, and wasn't busied by his Hokage role, he could have reached the same level than Orochimaru.

But, despite the fact Hiruzen was said to be more talentuous than Tobirama, in fact he never surpassed Tobirama because he became Hokage very early so he had to sacrifice a lot of his training time to manage Konoha.

While Tobirama lived in time of perpetual war, and could reach his prime without to be busied, when he became the 2nd Hokage he aldready reached his max level, while Hiruzen reached his prime at 32 years old and then he declined progressively + unlike Hiruzen, Tobirama was softless, for example he created and used edo tensei while Hiruzen was horrified by this jutsu, despite the fact that as Hokage he had access to this jutsu through the forbidden parchment.
 

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I never said Chiyo was superior than Sasori. But that she could have been, if she didn't care about moral.

If Sasori is superior, it's because he went over moral like using dead people as puppets, and transformed his own body in puppet which probably permit him to physically control more 100 puppets at the same time. Chiyo could do the same, but unlike Sasori, she has moral values.

Same thing with Hiruzen. Orochimaru surpassed Hiruzen because he also didn't care about moral, so he was able to learn powerful but completely immoral and dangerous jutsu, and he dedicated all of his life to increase the mastery of his Ninjutsu while Hiruzen was busied by his Hokage role.

If Hiruzen went 100% full Ninjutsu, and wasn't busied by his Hokage role, he could have reached the same level than Orochimaru.

But, despite the fact Hiruzen was said to be more talentuous than Tobirama, in fact he never surpassed Tobirama because he became Hokage very early so he had to sacrifice a lot of his training time to manage Konoha.

While Tobirama lived in time of perpetual war, and could reach his prime without to be busied, when he became the 2nd Hokage he aldready reached his max level, while Hiruzen reached his prime at 32 years old and then he declined progressively + unlike Hiruzen, Tobirama was softless, for example he created and used edo tensei while Hiruzen was horrified by this jutsu, despite the fact that as Hokage he had access to this jutsu through the forbidden parchment.
Read my post, i didn't claim you did.

What i said was that Sasori was outright nore talented irrespective of choices.

Sasori having only a heart gives him a smaller source of physical energy, so it should limit his chakra production, not increase it.

Nonetheless, string creation is not taxing. It has more to do with chakra control than chakra amounts.

Chiyo being retired also gave her more free time than a Sasori who was part of a group, especially one that doesn't offer too many missions. We have proof of this because Sasori gained nothing after joining Akatsuki. His best work, the 3rd KK, came from before joining.

Hiruzen is said to have surpassed Tobirama very early on, so that's not true.

Hiruzen himself retired early and therefore had time to practice. Ororchimaru was always on the run, in labs and part of Akatsuki, so he actually had less free time.
The only advantage Orochimaru had was stamina, as far as i can think.

Orochimaru being called a once in a generation talent places his pure talent above Hiruzen, who is simply noted as being very talented, but not once in a generation.
 

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Secondly, Chiyo was a rival to Tsunade in the war days. Now their rivalry is based on Tsunade finding a way to make antidotes for the poisons of Chiyo. That poisoning and antidotes are their specialties suggests that in a straight fight, Chiyo is stronger.
Actually Tsunade is known as the strongest woman in the world, so she’s stronger then Chiyo. This is Tsunade before she even had her forehead seal.
 

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I wont say she’s stronger than tsunade but she definetely strong and have more experiences in both war and life. As for if she is stronger than rasa thats kinda nah theres so many advantge that rasa has that chiyo would have a huge difficulty to counter but she definetely has a chance to beat him
 

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I wont say she’s stronger than tsunade but she definetely strong and have more experiences in both war and life. As for if she is stronger than rasa thats kinda nah theres so many advantge that rasa has that chiyo would have a huge difficulty to counter but she definetely has a chance to beat him
You kinda moxed up strength with counters.

OP also admits Rasa would beat her
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Actually Tsunade is known as the strongest woman in the world, so she’s stronger then Chiyo. This is Tsunade before she even had her forehead seal.
You logic doesn't follow

Something 'known' isn't always true. The 4th Raikage is known as the fastest man alive, but evidence shows Jiraiya, Mifune and Gai as faster, for example.

You must look at precisely who 'knows' something, how they know, what else they know and what biases they have when evaluating statements.

In cases of direct ability, direct showings are preferable. Otherwise, i don't necessarily disagree with you.
 

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The 4th Raikage is known as the fastest man alive, but evidence shows Jiraiya, Mifune and Gai as faster, for example.
None of those people are faster then the 4th Raikage??

It’s not that she’s known as the strongest, she’s downright stated to be the strongest female ninja. That’s ninja history, she is historically the strongest female ninja to ever live.

In cases of direct ability, direct showings are preferable. Otherwise, i don't necessarily disagree with you.
Well in terms of direct showings Tsunade is definitely better off the Chiyo, her Madara feats eclipse what Chiyo did.
 

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None of those people are faster then the 4th Raikage??

It’s not that she’s known as the strongest, she’s downright stated to be the strongest female ninja. That’s ninja history, she is historically the strongest female ninja to ever live.



Well in terms of direct showings Tsunade is definitely better off the Chiyo, her Madara feats eclipse what Chiyo did.
Its not simply that i disagree with you, but that you make counter claims as though theyare undeniable fact without providing any evidence.
Jiraiya, for example, has speed showings against Kisame who scales to V1 Bee while standard Bee scales to V2 Raikage. When Jiraiya enters SM, he's on ten other levels.
Mifune beat Hanzo by speed along, almost, when Jiraiya - who knew of the reputation of the 4th RK - said that no individual could beat Hanzo.
Uhmm, unless the author himself stated it, then any character statement is a reflection of 'what is known'. So to say she's not known as such only but is downright such is a contradictory statement. And that's even before i actually analyse the statement itself.

Based on what I've covered thus far (speed scalings, literal meaning of words), you're on shaky ground for making absolute declarations.
Nonetheless, i will see to this one as well. Chiyo, while being controlled by someone else, was able to take on a KCM Naruto clone without 90% of her standard arsenal and while the opponent had full knowledge on her. Think about that.

I like what Tsunade did and consider her better than Chiyo, just so you know.
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Sorry about the paragraphs spacings, keyboard issues
 
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