Beans2
Sannin of the Scrolls 📜
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Recently, I've seen a few threads which pit SM Jiraiya against MS users. My first thoughts were "obviously he loses," but after thinking about it I can see how he counters their arsenal and wins the battle. So I made this thread to show how he can defeat a MS user under these conditions:
(Note: By Mangekyou Sharingan, I mean Madara/Sasuke/Itachi, not Obito/Kakashi)
Countering Amaterasu
So, I will begin by countering Amaterasu, which is the immediate problem for Jiraiya. We all know that Amaterasu burns anything in the caster's line of sight:
However, if Jiraiya's opponent cannot directly see him, he cannot light Jiraiya on fire. Since Jiraiya has full intel on Amaterasu, he knows this and can have Ma spit out her Senpō: Fūton Sunabokori.
This dust cloud, which is big enough to hide even a large summon like Gamabunta, prevents the opponent from eyeing their target and therefore, Jiraiya will not be nailed by Amaterasu. While it is true that the sharingan can distinguish chakra by its color, and detect Jiraiya's whereabouts through the dust cloud, it is not true that Jiraiya's opponent will be able to use amaterasu on him. Seeing their chakra and deducing their whereabouts is different from physically seeing a person. If a MS user could do that, it would not be neccessary to eye their target to ignite them. Also, Jiraiya's own sensory abilities will not be hindered by the dust cloud, due to him, Ma, and Pa all having Sage Mode sensing abilities. For extra precaution, Jiraiya can erect his sensing barrier (Kekkai: Tengai Hōjin) to detect who or what enters his sphere of sensing:
Now Jiraiya is completely safe from Amaterasu and can still sense and fight perfectly fine without even needing his vision. If Jiraiya wants to be REALLY cautious, he can set up a secondary defense against Amaterasu: Hari Jizō.
If he for some reason exits the dust cloud, he can cover himself up with this hair technique which provides defense from Amaterasu, should it ignite on him. He can follow up with Senpō: Kebari Senbon, which shoots needles from his hair, needles which were lit on black flames and are no longer on his person.
Moving on to: countering genjutsu.
Sharingan-based genjutsu is also visually-based genjutsu. The dust cloud's purpose is not just for Amaterasu: it also obscures the area and breaks eye contact between Jiraiya and his opponent. With the dust cloud up and Jiraiya's vision down, he cannot look into his opponent's eyes and therefore cannot get caught in a genjutsu. The dust cloud successfully broke the link of vision between six pairs of Rinnegan:
So there's no reason why it would break any eye contact between Jiraiya and his opponent. Even if by some absurd way Jiraiya gets caught in a genjutsu, Ma and Pa, whose chakra networks are merged with Jiraiya's, can break him out by disturbing his chakra. Genjutsu is rendered null by the dust cloud, and as a second measure, by Ma and Pa.
Countering Susano'o
The ultimate defense...or is it really? Jiraiya has his own ways to surpass a Susano'o and kill the opponent inside. His best bet is to sink the Susano'o using Swamp of the Underworld (Doton: Yomi Numa).
As you can see in the scan, even drugged Jiraiya was capable of making a swamp large enough to sink one of Orochimaru's boss snakes. Now let's compare the size of a snake to the size of a Susano'o:
That is Orochimaru's hydra (smaller than the snake Jiraiya sunk in a swamp), and that is Itachi's V4 Susano'o. If a drugged Jiraiya could immobilize a snake bigger than Susano'o, then a healthy Jiraiya obviously can make a much bigger swamp when he's not drugged. Not to mention, when he is in SM, all his regular jutsu are enhanced to make them much bigger than normal, a prime example being his super big-ball rasengan.
So we can only guess the huge size of this swamp, which would be so big that outrunning or dodging it would be impossible. If that's somehow not enough, Jiraiya can follow up with Food Cart Destroyer on top of the Susano'o, effectively sinking it even further into the swamp. Gamabunta literally held down a 100% Kurama:
He can easily sink a Susano'o into a massive swamp by body slamming it with his sheer weight. Now Jiraiya's opponent, along with his Susano'o, is sunk deep in a swamp. If his opponent dispells Susano'o, he would be crushed by the earth or drown in the mud. At this point, Jiraiya can simply wait and outlast his opponent. OR, he can spit out a massive fire jutsu and dry up the swamp, entombing his opponent's Susano'o deep within the earth and giving him a proper burial:
If by some miracle his opponent somehow digs himself out of the swamp, or if for some reason nothing else works, Fukusaku and Shima can prepare their Frogsong Genjutsu (Magen: Gama Rinshō). Both Itachi and Sasuke were immoblized by Tayuya's flute genjutsu:
So it would be reasonable to say that MS users have a weakness for sound-based genjutsu, and Gama Rinshō, which is much more powerful than Tayuya's flute genjutsu, would effectively immobilize them, force them to dispell their Susano'o just like Tayuya's genjutsu did, and Jiraiya can finish them the same way he finished three of the six Paths of Pain, with a sword to their back.
In conclusion, I believe that SM Jiraiya under the conditions I listed above will be able to defeat a Mangekyou Sharingan user like MS Sasuke, MS Madara, or MS Itachi.
Thanks for reading!
- Jiraiya starts in Sage Mode with Ma and Pa on his shoulders
- Jiraiya has full intel on Amaterasu
(Note: By Mangekyou Sharingan, I mean Madara/Sasuke/Itachi, not Obito/Kakashi)
Countering Amaterasu
So, I will begin by countering Amaterasu, which is the immediate problem for Jiraiya. We all know that Amaterasu burns anything in the caster's line of sight:
You must be registered for see images
However, if Jiraiya's opponent cannot directly see him, he cannot light Jiraiya on fire. Since Jiraiya has full intel on Amaterasu, he knows this and can have Ma spit out her Senpō: Fūton Sunabokori.
You must be registered for see images
This dust cloud, which is big enough to hide even a large summon like Gamabunta, prevents the opponent from eyeing their target and therefore, Jiraiya will not be nailed by Amaterasu. While it is true that the sharingan can distinguish chakra by its color, and detect Jiraiya's whereabouts through the dust cloud, it is not true that Jiraiya's opponent will be able to use amaterasu on him. Seeing their chakra and deducing their whereabouts is different from physically seeing a person. If a MS user could do that, it would not be neccessary to eye their target to ignite them. Also, Jiraiya's own sensory abilities will not be hindered by the dust cloud, due to him, Ma, and Pa all having Sage Mode sensing abilities. For extra precaution, Jiraiya can erect his sensing barrier (Kekkai: Tengai Hōjin) to detect who or what enters his sphere of sensing:
You must be registered for see images
Now Jiraiya is completely safe from Amaterasu and can still sense and fight perfectly fine without even needing his vision. If Jiraiya wants to be REALLY cautious, he can set up a secondary defense against Amaterasu: Hari Jizō.
You must be registered for see images
If he for some reason exits the dust cloud, he can cover himself up with this hair technique which provides defense from Amaterasu, should it ignite on him. He can follow up with Senpō: Kebari Senbon, which shoots needles from his hair, needles which were lit on black flames and are no longer on his person.
Moving on to: countering genjutsu.
Sharingan-based genjutsu is also visually-based genjutsu. The dust cloud's purpose is not just for Amaterasu: it also obscures the area and breaks eye contact between Jiraiya and his opponent. With the dust cloud up and Jiraiya's vision down, he cannot look into his opponent's eyes and therefore cannot get caught in a genjutsu. The dust cloud successfully broke the link of vision between six pairs of Rinnegan:
You must be registered for see images
So there's no reason why it would break any eye contact between Jiraiya and his opponent. Even if by some absurd way Jiraiya gets caught in a genjutsu, Ma and Pa, whose chakra networks are merged with Jiraiya's, can break him out by disturbing his chakra. Genjutsu is rendered null by the dust cloud, and as a second measure, by Ma and Pa.
Countering Susano'o
The ultimate defense...or is it really? Jiraiya has his own ways to surpass a Susano'o and kill the opponent inside. His best bet is to sink the Susano'o using Swamp of the Underworld (Doton: Yomi Numa).
You must be registered for see images
As you can see in the scan, even drugged Jiraiya was capable of making a swamp large enough to sink one of Orochimaru's boss snakes. Now let's compare the size of a snake to the size of a Susano'o:
You must be registered for see images
That is Orochimaru's hydra (smaller than the snake Jiraiya sunk in a swamp), and that is Itachi's V4 Susano'o. If a drugged Jiraiya could immobilize a snake bigger than Susano'o, then a healthy Jiraiya obviously can make a much bigger swamp when he's not drugged. Not to mention, when he is in SM, all his regular jutsu are enhanced to make them much bigger than normal, a prime example being his super big-ball rasengan.
You must be registered for see images
So we can only guess the huge size of this swamp, which would be so big that outrunning or dodging it would be impossible. If that's somehow not enough, Jiraiya can follow up with Food Cart Destroyer on top of the Susano'o, effectively sinking it even further into the swamp. Gamabunta literally held down a 100% Kurama:
You must be registered for see images
He can easily sink a Susano'o into a massive swamp by body slamming it with his sheer weight. Now Jiraiya's opponent, along with his Susano'o, is sunk deep in a swamp. If his opponent dispells Susano'o, he would be crushed by the earth or drown in the mud. At this point, Jiraiya can simply wait and outlast his opponent. OR, he can spit out a massive fire jutsu and dry up the swamp, entombing his opponent's Susano'o deep within the earth and giving him a proper burial:
You must be registered for see images
If by some miracle his opponent somehow digs himself out of the swamp, or if for some reason nothing else works, Fukusaku and Shima can prepare their Frogsong Genjutsu (Magen: Gama Rinshō). Both Itachi and Sasuke were immoblized by Tayuya's flute genjutsu:
You must be registered for see images
So it would be reasonable to say that MS users have a weakness for sound-based genjutsu, and Gama Rinshō, which is much more powerful than Tayuya's flute genjutsu, would effectively immobilize them, force them to dispell their Susano'o just like Tayuya's genjutsu did, and Jiraiya can finish them the same way he finished three of the six Paths of Pain, with a sword to their back.
In conclusion, I believe that SM Jiraiya under the conditions I listed above will be able to defeat a Mangekyou Sharingan user like MS Sasuke, MS Madara, or MS Itachi.
Thanks for reading!
