How Is Hiruzen Able To Beat Tsunade Realistically??

[Souji]

You seem to act as if Orochimaru plotted this whole life. You do know that if Orochimaru didn't use the Edos, Hiruzen would have just been defeated, right? They were literally used to toy with him, it was said during the fight. Cheap tricks? You mean having the weakened former Hokage take turns on him? Then have them watch as he engaged in a kenjutsu battle with him? Come on, Tobirama's clone that used FTG to save Minato, Sasuke and Naruto is above those two lame excuses for Edos.

Hiruzen already admitted inferiority to Orochimaru prior to knowing anything about his student learning and improving upon Edo Tensei.

I can't deny he admitted inferiority to Orochimaru. But it was because he was far beyond his prime. Enma called him miserable. It was said if Hiruzen was a decade younger, Orochimaru wouldn't dare attack the village.

Hiruzen sniffed himself out of Hashirama's genjutsu, without external assistance. He is the only character in the series to seal multiple targets with RDS. Enma is a very viable counter to wood release. He engaged the two Senju brothers in taijutsu and managed to use an explosive tag feint on them (a speed/agility feat; even Orochimaru hadn't noticed)

Without Hiruzen's actions that day, who's to say Orichimaru wouldn't have transferred his soul into Sasuke at the end of Part 1? What if Kabuto had managed to revive Hashi and Tobirama at the beginning of the war and properly control them? The K11 and Jounin senseis were inspired by his death to get stronger! Jiraiya and Tsunade came out of hiding to protect their village.

Like it or not, Hiruzen's death was the most impactful event in Part 1, and even pushed the events of part 2.

I'm not judging Hiruzen in strength. Unfortunately, some of the Naruto fandom are those who take things face value, without reading in between the lines and making connections.

 

[startup97]

I can't deny he admitted inferiority to Orochimaru. But it was because he was far beyond his prime. Enma called him miserable. It was said if Hiruzen was a decade younger, Orochimaru wouldn't dare attack the village.

Hiruzen sniffed himself out of Hashirama's genjutsu, without external assistance. He is the only character in the series to seal multiple targets with RDS. Enma is a very viable counter to wood release. He engaged the two Senju brothers in taijutsu and managed to use an explosive tag feint on them (a speed/agility feat; even Orochimaru hadn't noticed)

Without Hiruzen's actions that day, who's to say Orichimaru wouldn't have transferred his soul into Sasuke at the end of Part 1? What if Kabuto had managed to revive Hashi and Tobirama at the beginning of the war and properly control them? The K11 and Jounin senseis were inspired by his death to get stronger! Jiraiya and Tsunade came out of hiding to protect their village.

Like it or not, Hiruzen's death was the most impactful event in Part 1, and even pushed the events of part 2.

I'm not judging Hiruzen in strength. Unfortunately, some of the Naruto fandom are those who take things face value, without reading in between the lines and making connections.

Agreed 100% I love you! =D

 

[Stark]

I understand that Tsunade can endure a lot with her medical ninjutsu, she is a worthy opponent but she has no projectile based ninjutsu, a close up fight with Hiruzen and his Staff is risky. Even with her regenerative abilities she is going to run out of chakra quickly from Hiruzens projectile based ninjutsu and they will wear her off quickly, constantly need to heal and running out of chakra she will begin to rely on her sluggish self as she showed us when she was fighting Madara with the 4 other Kage. With the her inability to evade attacks from a man who admits that Taijutsu is not his specialty(Kabuto) what makes you think she will evade Hiruzens long distance jutsu with her sluggish speed. Not only has Hiruzen fought momentarily with two Hokage in Taijutsu combat and proved a worthy opponent but he successfully countered most of their attacks when being out maned (or however you spell it)

 

[Sacrosanct]

I can't deny he admitted inferiority to Orochimaru. But it was because he was far beyond his prime. Enma called him miserable. It was said if Hiruzen was a decade younger, Orochimaru wouldn't dare attack the village.

Hiruzen sniffed himself out of Hashirama's genjutsu, without external assistance. He is the only character in the series to seal multiple targets with RDS. Enma is a very viable counter to wood release. He engaged the two Senju brothers in taijutsu and managed to use an explosive tag feint on them (a speed/agility feat; even Orochimaru hadn't noticed)

Without Hiruzen's actions that day, who's to say Orichimaru wouldn't have transferred his soul into Sasuke at the end of Part 1? What if Kabuto had managed to revive Hashi and Tobirama at the beginning of the war and properly control them? The K11 and Jounin senseis were inspired by his death to get stronger! Jiraiya and Tsunade came out of hiding to protect their village.

Like it or not, Hiruzen's death was the most impactful event in Part 1, and even pushed the events of part 2.

I'm not judging Hiruzen in strength. Unfortunately, some of the Naruto fandom are those who take things face value, without reading in between the lines and making connections.

The databook implies that had Hiruzen been 10 years younger, he would have been able to successfully RDS Orochimaru rather than having to settle for Orochimaru's arm like he did in canon. That wouldn't change the circumstances of the fight; Hiruzen would still be overwhelmed. Worst-case-scenario for Hiruzen, Orochimaru would have actually put his Edos to use rather than having them toy with him and take turns on him. Hiruzen would have died at that point, as would Jiraiya later on. You simply don't let Hashirama and Tobirama access some of their power.

You do realize that the weakened versions of the Shodai and Nidaime Hokage stood still the whole time Orochimaru and Hiruzen engaged in their kenjutsu battle, and that when they did fight, they took turns? They were even stated to be toying with him. I think you don't understand the desperate situation Hiruzen was in, the weakened versions of his predecessors being used to mock him to please Orochimaru's sadism. This is why he needed to use RDS, there was simply no other way for him to win.

Don't even bring up Hashirama and Hiruzen, the power difference between the two is a joke. Enma's not saving Hiruzen from a Sage Mode enhanced Flower Tree World. Nor would Enma save him from shinsuusenju.

Whether you like it or not, this is a thread about his strength. I know full well about his character, his flaws included; you need not educate me on such things.

I understand that Tsunade can endure a lot with her medical ninjutsu, she is a worthy opponent but she has no projectile based ninjutsu, a close up fight with Hiruzen and his Staff is risky. Even with her regenerative abilities she is going to run out of chakra quickly from Hiruzens projectile based ninjutsu and they will wear her off quickly, constantly need to heal and running out of chakra she will begin to rely on her sluggish self as she showed us when she was fighting Madara with the 4 other Kage. With the her inability to evade attacks from a man who admits that Taijutsu is not his specialty what makes you think she will evade Hiruzens long distance jutsu with her sluggish speed. Not only has Hiruzen fought momentarily with two Hokage in Taijutsu combat and proved a worthy opponent but he successfully countered most of their attacks when being out maned (or however you spell it)

Tsunade? Run out of chakra? Before Old Hiruzen does? Your argument is flawed from the start. She would force him to use ninjutsu as he would know to avoid taijutsu with Tsunade at all costs and as he uses ninjutsu he will be the one who runs out of chakra. When he runs out of chakra, she can easily take this opportunity to close in on him and he won't be able to do anything about it (maybe dodge a few initial hits) when she hits his diaphragm. On the argument about the two weakened Hokage, read the above. By feats, Tobirama's clone is above them.

Don't go on saying that Old Hiruzen can wear Tsunade out.

 

[startup97]

The databook implies that had Hiruzen been 10 years younger, he would have been able to successfully RDS Orochimaru rather than having to settle for Orochimaru's arm like he did in canon. That wouldn't change the circumstances of the fight; Hiruzen would still be overwhelmed. Worst-case-scenario for Hiruzen, Orochimaru would have actually put his Edos to use rather than having them toy with him and take turns on him. Hiruzen would have died at that point, as would Jiraiya later on. You simply don't let Hashirama and Tobirama access some of their power.

You do realize that the weakened versions of the Shodai and Nidaime Hokage stood still the whole time Orochimaru and Hiruzen engaged in their kenjutsu battle, and that when they did fight, they took turns? They were even stated to be toying with him. I think you don't understand the desperate situation Hiruzen was in, the weakened versions of his predecessors being used to mock him to please Orochimaru's sadism. This is why he needed to use RDS, there was simply no other way for him to win.

Don't even bring up Hashirama and Hiruzen, the power difference between the two is a joke. Enma's not saving Hiruzen from a Sage Mode enhanced Flower Tree World. Nor would Enma save him from shinsuusenju.

Whether you like it or not, this is a thread about his strength. I know full well about his character, his flaws included; you need not educate me on such things.



Tsunade? Run out of chakra? Before Old Hiruzen does? Your argument is flawed from the start. She would force him to use ninjutsu as he would know to avoid taijutsu with Tsunade at all costs and as he uses ninjutsu he will be the one who runs out of chakra. When he runs out of chakra, she can easily take this opportunity to close in on him and he won't be able to do anything about it (maybe dodge a few initial hits) when she hits his diaphragm. On the argument about the two weakened Hokage, read the above. By feats, Tobirama's clone is above them.

Don't go on saying that Old Hiruzen can wear Tsunade out.

He doesn't have too. He'd have already killer her by then.

 

[Souji]

The databook implies that had Hiruzen been 10 years younger, he would have been able to successfully RDS Orochimaru rather than having to settle for Orochimaru's arm like he did in canon. That wouldn't change the circumstances of the fight; Hiruzen would still be overwhelmed. Worst-case-scenario for Hiruzen, Orochimaru would have actually put his Edos to use rather than having them toy with him and take turns on him. Hiruzen would have died at that point, as would Jiraiya later on. You simply don't let Hashirama and Tobirama access some of their power.

You do realize that the weakened versions of the Shodai and Nidaime Hokage stood still the whole time Orochimaru and Hiruzen engaged in their kenjutsu battle, and that when they did fight, they took turns? They were even stated to be toying with him. I think you don't understand the desperate situation Hiruzen was in, the weakened versions of his predecessors being used to mock him to please Orochimaru's sadism. This is why he needed to use RDS, there was simply no other way for him to win.

Don't even bring up Hashirama and Hiruzen, the power difference between the two is a joke. Enma's not saving Hiruzen from a Sage Mode enhanced Flower Tree World. Nor would Enma save him from shinsuusenju.

Whether you like it or not, this is a thread about his strength. I know full well about his character, his flaws included; you need not educate me on such things.

I wasn't referring to you explicitly, now was I? You're one of the few who actually provides intelligent justification; a rarity on the Base nowadays.

You fail to acknowledge how Hiruzen, too, was severely nerfed during the battle. The ANBU commented on his inability to bring out his arsenal as a result of his old age. Hiruzen had absolutely NO killing intent during the fight; he didn't want to hurt his former senseis and his most prized student; the fact that he was able to steel himself to do what he did is simply a testament to his strength of character; the Will of Fire.

Who are you to judge the difference in power between Hashirama and Hiruzen? Hiruzen hasn't been seen in his prime; Hashirama has. That's an unfair comparison, of course Hiruzen will be weaker; it's a skewed comparison that easily favors the first.

Hiruzen cracked the roof of the building he was fighting on; that's a chakra feat not committed by anyone else in Part 1. And he was an old, weak man.

No one can deny he needs to show more feats. But from what he's shown, he's FAR from weak, as some of the idiots on here claim.

We're digressing from the main topic. Debating this is just going to be an endless cycle. I acknowledge and understand your points, but you cannot deny mine as well.

 

[Sacrosanct]

I wasn't referring to you explicitly, now was I? You're one of the few who actually provides intelligent justification; a rarity on the Base nowadays.

You fail to acknowledge how Hiruzen, too, was severely nerfed during the battle. The ANBU commented on his inability to bring out his arsenal as a result of his old age. Hiruzen had absolutely NO killing intent during the fight; he didn't want to hurt his former senseis and his most prized student; the fact that he was able to steel himself to do what he did is simply a testament to his strength of character; the Will of Fire.

Who are you to judge the difference in power between Hashirama and Hiruzen? Hiruzen hasn't been seen in his prime; Hashirama has. That's an unfair comparison, of course Hiruzen will be weaker; it's a skewed comparison that easily favors the first.

Hiruzen cracked the roof of the building he was fighting on; that's a chakra feat not committed by anyone else in Part 1. And he was an old, weak man.

No one can deny he needs to show more feats. But from what he's shown, he's FAR from weak, as some of the idiots on here claim.

We're digressing from the main topic. Debating this is just going to be an endless cycle. I acknowledge and understand your points, but you cannot deny mine as well.

You guys keep straying from the main point, referring to Hiruzen at his best who we're likely to never see and whose power is left up to speculation. The thing is, the only Hiruzen we've only seen and the only Hiruzen we're likely to ever see admitted himself to be under Part 1 Orochimaru. What your friend here, who apparently called you over, is claiming, is that whatever he shows will make him Top 10 despite Hiruzen's own statements regarding his prowess.

Don't even try to tell me that if Hiruzen had more stamina, was a little stronger and faster, he would be able to take the Shodai Hokage. Age had the same effect on Onoki and we all know how much that helped him against EMS Madara, even though Madara wasn't even trying and he also had the future Nidaime Tsuchikage to aid him.

They claim him to be weak because they're comparing him to characters such as Hashirama, Tobirama, and Minato (which is unfair to him, but nobody can stop them).

If you can just admit that the only Hiruzen that we can judge based on feats is weaker than Tsunade, then this can be done with.

 

[Tazzilla88]

Question. Why is being old a valid excuse for Hiruzen, but not Tsunade, when it's apparent her physical age is much higher than her actual age and seems to be significantly older than Hiruzen's part 1 age. Not too mention Tsunade said that she was out of her prime. Yet that seems not to matter.
Personally I think Part 1 Tsunade > Part 1 Hiruzen and I tend to think more feats await both Tsunade and Hiruzen. And after those feats come out I'll have more to say. For instance, we've not seen a actual demonstration of Tsunade's full strength since the jump in powers, but based on Hashirama's statement it's comparable to Sakura's monster strength which made mini Juubis into Juubi fodder. Dealing with that kind of AoE would be difficult for most people.

 

[startup97]

You guys keep straying from the main point, referring to Hiruzen at his best who we're likely to never see and whose power is left up to speculation. The thing is, the only Hiruzen we've only seen and the only Hiruzen we're likely to ever see admitted himself to be under Part 1 Orochimaru. What your friend here, who apparently called you over, is claiming, is that whatever he shows will make him Top 10 despite Hiruzen's own statements regarding his prowess.

Don't even try to tell me that if Hiruzen had more stamina, was a little stronger and faster, he would be able to take the Shodai Hokage. Age had the same effect on Onoki and we all know how much that helped him against EMS Madara, even though Madara wasn't even trying and he also had the future Nidaime Tsuchikage to aid him.

They claim him to be weak because they're comparing him to characters such as Hashirama, Tobirama, and Minato (which is unfair to him, but nobody can stop them).

If you can just admit that the only Hiruzen that we can judge based on feats is weaker than Tsunade, then this can be done with.

Age effects everyone differently. It messed Hiruzen up big time! By feats yes Tsunade can beat him but soon enough in the upcoming chapters his feats will make Tsunade look weak.

 

[startup97]

Question. Why is being old a valid excuse for Hiruzen, but not Tsunade, when it's apparent her physical age is much higher than her actual age and seems to be significantly older than Hiruzen's part 1 age. Not too mention Tsunade said that she was out of her prime. Yet that seems not to matter.
Personally I think Part 1 Tsunade > Part 1 Hiruzen and I tend to think more feats await both Tsunade and Hiruzen. And after those feats come out I'll have more to say. For instance, we've not seen a actual demonstration of Tsunade's full strength since the jump in powers, but based on Hashirama's statement it's comparable to Sakura's monster strength which made mini Juubis into Juubi fodder. Dealing with that kind of AoE would be difficult for most people.

Being old brought down his strength, speed, stamina and chakra levels down big time. It's a poor comparison compared to what it's said he can do in his prime.

 

[Souji]

You guys keep straying from the main point, referring to Hiruzen at his best who we're likely to never see and whose power is left up to speculation. The thing is, the only Hiruzen we've only seen and the only Hiruzen we're likely to ever see admitted himself to be under Part 1 Orochimaru. What your friend here, who apparently called you over, is claiming, is that whatever he shows will make him Top 10 despite Hiruzen's own statements regarding his prowess.

Don't even try to tell me that if Hiruzen had more stamina, was a little stronger and faster, he would be able to take the Shodai Hokage. Age had the same effect on Onoki and we all know how much that helped him against EMS Madara, even though Madara wasn't even trying and he also had the future Nidaime Tsuchikage to aid him.

They claim him to be weak because they're comparing him to characters such as Hashirama, Tobirama, and Minato (which is unfair to him, but nobody can stop them).

If you can just admit that the only Hiruzen that we can judge based on feats is weaker than Tsunade, then this can be done with.

Weaker than Tsunade? In what sense? Medical ninjutsu? Taijutsu? Chakra reserves? Of course he is! I have never once denied such. Although, I'd say his speed and variety of ninjutsu are superior.

But tell me this, Omnipotent. Since when has raw power been the single determining factor in a Naruto fight, throughout the entire manga? There are too many variables to consider, you know that.

But I suppose, for the sake of this thread and the situation, It honestly goes either way, with Tsunade, as of her current feats, edging out her sensei. We cannot judge a character until they have shown what they are truly capable of. But we must also factor in hype, even if it is superficial.

This is the fallacy of versus threads, the creator of a thread will obviously, whether implicitly or outwardly, try and tilt the general consensus to the combatant of their choice.

 

[Tazzilla88]

Being old brought down his strength, speed, stamina and chakra levels down big time. It's a poor comparison compared to what it's said he can do in his prime.

So being old hasn't effected Tsunade in any way? When Jiraiya stated that in her prime none could stand shoulder to shoulder with her in combat and medical prowess.

 

[Bantos]

What is this talk about Tsunade's speed? : D She has show some damn good speed feats. And even in databook she is faster than Hiruzen. So with speed Hiruzen is not going to win. And speed isn't the only factor why Tsunade wins.

I mean, just admit that currently Tsunade is stronger. The biggest fanboy of Hiruzen ever already admitted it (Startup97)
Currently Hiruzen just doesn't have what it takes. And of course it's not a shame to be weaker than Tsunade since she is really strong.

And I actually like Hiruzen as a character so don't call me a hater.

 

[NewKageism]

by current feats Tsunade
by hype and control of the village Hiruzen

But right now Tsunade

 

[Sacrosanct]

Weaker than Tsunade? In what sense? Medical ninjutsu? Taijutsu? Chakra reserves? Of course he is! I have never once denied such. Although, I'd say his speed and variety of ninjutsu are superior.

But tell me this, Omnipotent. Since when has raw power been the single determining factor in a Naruto fight, throughout the entire manga? There are too many variables to consider, you know that.

But I suppose, for the sake of this thread and the situation, It honestly goes either way, with Tsunade, as of her current feats, edging out her sensei. We cannot judge a character until they have shown what they are truly capable of. But we must also factor in hype, even if it is superficial.

This is the fallacy of versus threads, the creator of a thread will obviously, whether implicitly or outwardly, try and tilt the general consensus to the combatant of their choice.

Databook disagees on the speed. His ninjutsu is virtually useless against her.

The fact is, Tsunade is a tank and can take everything that he has to throw at her, as she did against Edo Madara of all people. Hiruzen will not be able to keep up a ninjutsu barrage to hold Tsunade back (he will run out of chakra eventually) and be forced to summon Enma, taking up more of his chakra. Enma wasn't even able to keep down the weakened Edo Tobirama, yet Tsunade smashed through Edo Madara and his Susanoo, causing him to regenerate. Enma is dispatched and the out-of-chakra Hiruzen won't be able to defend himself properly and eventually is taken down.

Hiruzen has already told us of what he's capable of; he's weaker than Part 1 Orochimaru, is he not?

By feats yes Tsunade can beat him but soon enough in the upcoming chapters his feats will make Tsunade look weak.

Considering the fact that Hiruzen already admitted inferiority to Part 1 Orochimaru, I doubt it.

 

[Souji]

Databook disagees on the speed. His ninjutsu is virtually useless against her.

The fact is, Tsunade is a tank and can take everything that he has to throw at her, as she did against Edo Madara of all people. Hiruzen will not be able to keep up a ninjutsu barrage to hold Tsunade back (he will run out of chakra eventually) and be forced to summon Enma, taking up more of his chakra. Enma wasn't even able to keep down the weakened Edo Tobirama, yet Tsunade smashed through Edo Madara and his Susanoo, causing him to regenerate. Enma is dispatched and the out-of-chakra Hiruzen won't be able to defend himself properly and eventually is taken down.

Hiruzen has already told us of what he's capable of; he's weaker than Part 1 Orochimaru, is he not?



Considering the fact that Hiruzen already admitted inferiority to Part 1 Orochimaru, I doubt it.

You're still pushing this point? Haven't I already acknowledged it? Yes, Hiruzen is weaker than Part 1 Orochimaru. I acknowledged that a few posts earlier. But even if he was weak, even if Oro was toying with him, his impact on the story's direction is significant.

Obito also had 1 in intelligence in the databook when he was a kid. As much as you'd like to cite the databook, Kishi is rarely consistent with what he writes in there versus what actually occurs in the manga.

There are too many variables to consider in any versus thread, which is why they're kind of fun to watch, as users try to prove each other wrong.

Power Scaling. If Hiruzen makes a comeback, which is highly likely, he will show ninjutsu that is power scaled accordingly. It's atrocious to compare part 1 characters and feats to part 2 feats. There will always be an Inherent bias towards part 2 versions of characters.

 

[startup97]

Databook disagees on the speed. His ninjutsu is virtually useless against her.

The fact is, Tsunade is a tank and can take everything that he has to throw at her, as she did against Edo Madara of all people. Hiruzen will not be able to keep up a ninjutsu barrage to hold Tsunade back (he will run out of chakra eventually) and be forced to summon Enma, taking up more of his chakra. Enma wasn't even able to keep down the weakened Edo Tobirama, yet Tsunade smashed through Edo Madara and his Susanoo, causing him to regenerate. Enma is dispatched and the out-of-chakra Hiruzen won't be able to defend himself properly and eventually is taken down.

Hiruzen has already told us of what he's capable of; he's weaker than Part 1 Orochimaru, is he not?



Considering the fact that Hiruzen already admitted inferiority to Part 1 Orochimaru, I doubt it.

He was saying this because he was OLD!!!!!! Many people have tried telling you this yet you still push the point. 10 years younger Hiruzen would destroy Orochimaru.