[VS] How does gentle fist counter one shot fist?

[sayian]

64 palms vs 1 hit.
even if rotation exist it can't be used while they're executing 64palms
1 hit punches can parry 64 palms (that's why neji had to use rotation to counter naruto chakra fist)

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[Hakke]

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the 64 palms are made up of 6 set of strikes. the number of strikes duplicates after each set. the first set is 2 strikes, the second is 4, the third is 8 and so on. in each set, the strikes are delivered forcefully and insanely fast which knock back the enemy making him unstable and not allowing him to strike the user. Kidomaru, who wasn't even affected by the Jutsu due to his golden armor and who had 6 ****ing hands couldn't even touch Neji when he was delivering all the 64 strikes.

the technique is basically a maneuver of the Gentle Fist fighting style where the performer is maneuvering his opponent to land every hit, it isn't just a straight pokes like most people think otherwise it would've been easily parried and countered in the Manga. not anyone with a CES would parry it, it actually depends on how fast and skilled he/she is.

In case the opponent managed to deliver a strike, the user can simply dodge it and then keep delivering the other strikes. techs like CES require a precise Chakra control [

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], something that I doubt that its user can pull off when Chakra is being injected forcefully through his body [

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],[

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] so even if they managed to land a hit, it would not kill the performer of the 64 palms since it would be normal and not Chakra enhanced. Plus, it only takes to block 5 Chakra points to block the Chakra flow in someone's arm [

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],[

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], 5 hits that can be delivered in an instant with the Hyuga' hand speed so the user doesn't need to deleiver all the 64 strikes to disable the CES.


techs like Frog Kata can easily prevent the performer from delivering all the 64 strikes since it doesn't require a direct contact and it can't be evaded and I doubt that the 64 palms performer can deliver all the strikes to someone like the Raikage since I doubt that those hits can even knock him back but all I know that he can't tank the basic gentle fist something that can bypass durability as stated by Kakashi and as shown when Hinata's Gentle Fist was able to bypass BSM Naruto's Chakra Cloak [

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].

and Btw, the reason that Neji resorted to Rotation wasn't that Naruto attacks can "one shot" but because he had a Kyuubi Chakra Cloak that had reach and destructive power so he couldn't evade or use Taijutsu technieqes so Rotation was his only option.

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[KidGamer65]

Long story short, it doesn't unless the Hyuga is so much faster than the target that the target can't properly react to their advance, which they are not in most cases outside of people fanboying.

-If 64 palms is used Tsunade or Sakura respond with a punch, and it's GG, especially Boruto Sakura since her punches create shockwaves without having to hit the ground.
-If 64 palms is used Ay blitzes obviously.
-If 64 palms is used SM Naruto responds w/ Frog Kata.
-If 64 palms is used any Susanoo user can simply respond with an arm like in the OP and crush them.

Anyone faster or even capable of perfectly reacting to them who has a type of attack that has overwhelming power that can one shot or leave them in a severely injured state would easily counter 64 palms:

Tsunade
Sakura
Ay III/IV
Every SM user in the series
Anyone with access to at least Ribcage Susanoo


People proficient in close range weapon play who are faster/as fast as said Hyuga as well:

Gai
Kisame
Sasuke
Killer B
Madara
Hashirama
Mifune

 

[Team7monaa]

Long story short, it doesn't unless the Hyuga is so much faster than the target that the target can't properly react to their advance, which they are not in most cases outside of people fanboying.

-If 64 palms is used Tsunade or Sakura respond with a punch, and it's GG, especially Boruto Sakura since her punches create shockwaves without having to hit the ground.
-If 64 palms is used Ay blitzes obviously.
-If 64 palms is used SM Naruto responds w/ Frog Kata.
-If 64 palms is used any Susanoo user can simply respond with an arm like in the OP and crush them.

Anyone faster or even capable of perfectly reacting to them who has a type of attack that has overwhelming power that can one shot or leave them in a severely injured state would easily counter 64 palms:

Tsunade
Sakura
Ay III/IV
Every SM user in the series
Anyone with access to at least Ribcage Susanoo


People proficient in close range weapon play who are faster/as fast as said Hyuga as well:

Gai
Kisame
Sasuke
Killer B
Madara
Hashirama
Mifune

Exactly this, 64 palms doesn't render you immobile and leaves you open for a counter.

 

[Tauren Chieftain]

Once first 2 strikes hit you opponent is somehow unable to react / counter to other hits that comes. This happened each time in manga.

If 64 palms are started no one can counter it.

 

[Jinrou]

64 palms... The combination of mentions of a pentagram and high speed combo suggests -at the very least by portrayal- that once the first hits connect, escape should be impossible.

- Kidomaru having more than two hands but being unable to make any movements towards Neji during the execution suggests this...

- Hinata landing hits on a spawn and stopping to indulge in her thoughts mid combo then completing the technique without any reactions from the spawn -especially when speed isn't needed to at least show a reaction to a technique being stopped midway [

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]-[

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]- also suggest this.

The 64 palms is a finishing move imo... however, connecting with the initial two seems to be where the problem would lie. The 3 canon usages of the tech include completion on an incapacitated Naruto, an out of sorts Kido who was still in awe with Neji cutting his threads iirc and a juubi spawn that has no reaction feats to suggest it could have evaded the initial two.

I doubt any of the listed above would ever be caught stationary in range of the 64 palms perhaps except Tsunade.

 

[Hakke]

64 palms... The combination of mentions of a pentagram and high speed combo suggests -at the very least by portrayal- that once the first hits connect, escape should be impossible.

- Kidomaru having more than two hands but being unable to make any movements towards Neji during the execution suggests this...

- Hinata landing hits on a spawn and stopping to indulge in her thoughts mid combo then completing the technique without any reactions from the spawn -especially when speed isn't needed to at least show a reaction to a technique being stopped midway [

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]-[

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]- also suggest this.

The 64 palms is a finishing move imo... however, connecting with the initial two seems to be where the problem would lie. The 3 canon usages of the tech include completion on an incapacitated Naruto, an out of sorts Kido who was still in awe with Neji cutting his threads iirc and a juubi spawn that has no reaction feats to suggest it could have evaded the initial two.

I doubt any of the listed above would ever be caught stationary in range of the 64 palms perhaps except Tsunade.

I think that's probably the case. Each time someone was caught in the field of the 8 Trigrams, Neji claimed that it's over for him [

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], [

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]. And each time it was performed in the Manga, all the 64 palms were delivered perfectly even when its victims had really a very good chance at countering it.

heck, Tenten even called it "Neji's true power"

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and that was right after he performed Rotation so it wouldn't be right if it was just 64 pokes.

 

[sayian]

Long story short, it doesn't unless the Hyuga is so much faster than the target that the target can't properly react to their advance, which they are not in most cases outside of people fanboying.

-If 64 palms is used Tsunade or Sakura respond with a punch, and it's GG, especially Boruto Sakura since her punches create shockwaves without having to hit the ground.
-If 64 palms is used Ay blitzes obviously.
-If 64 palms is used SM Naruto responds w/ Frog Kata.
-If 64 palms is used any Susanoo user can simply respond with an arm like in the OP and crush them.

Anyone faster or even capable of perfectly reacting to them who has a type of attack that has overwhelming power that can one shot or leave them in a severely injured state would easily counter 64 palms:

Tsunade
Sakura
Ay III/IV
Every SM user in the series
Anyone with access to at least Ribcage Susanoo


People proficient in close range weapon play who are faster/as fast as said Hyuga as well:

Gai
Kisame
Sasuke
Killer B
Madara
Hashirama
Mifune

Now what if Ay was stationary during CQC? while he's in the process of being hit by GF would his reflexes still neg GF then liger bomb someone like hiashi the same way he did to sasuke or would hiashi use body blow to counter the grab.

Exactly this, 64 palms doesn't render you immobile and leaves you open for a counter.

it technically does but you have to be quick enough to be able to parry it b4 it lands and even quicker during it. But I don't see how this gives someone like sakura the ability to parry it when she's in the process of being hit based upon what little I know about her. I can only see doing so right before it connects and there's really no need for accuracy when a hyuuga is essentially a foot away from her and unlike w/ omoi, the hyuuga will remain there instead of knocking her back.

I think that's probably the case. Each time someone was caught in the field of the 8 Trigrams, Neji claimed that it's over for him [

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], [

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]. And each time it was performed in the Manga, all the 64 palms were delivered perfectly even when its victims had really a very good chance at countering it.

heck, Tenten even called it "Neji's true power"

Spoiler

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and that was right after he performed Rotation so it wouldn't be right if it was just 64 pokes.

Went back to look at the databooks and compared characters in relation to neji, most of them were inferior to him with kidomaru and naruto being the worst and it were coincidentally those same two who got smacked around the most. if the databook does infact only factor base stats only then that only means neji is even quicker w/ byakugan activated. Meanwhile the gap between kido/naruto/lee is to neji is even larger.

Neji - tai 4.5 spd 4.0
kido - tai 2.5 spd 3.0
naru -tai 2.0 spd 3.0
lee - tai 4.0 spd 4.0
gai - tai 5.0 spd 5.0


If speed in the DB factors reflexes and not just foot movement then it makes sense why neji would always be able to move quicker than his opponent can react to. each jab is quicker than what naruto can be able to block. almost like a fighting game, where one character has slightly less i-frames to hit his opponent will always have the advantage over the other even if they both technically had the same speed like lee v neji. so yeah, i think KG is right, taijutsu adv gives them the ability to counter GF while spd enables it to be done. So pt1 neji was definitely the strongest of konoha 11 and could only be matched by 5Glee, jounins like gai and KN0 and i say that because their spd was obviously boosted to deal w/ hyuuga techs regardless if it's offensively or defensively which is what I think gai was referring to when he said the gates was the only way to beat neji.

 

[KidGamer65]

Now what if Ay was stationary during CQC? while he's in the process of being hit by GF would his reflexes still neg GF then liger bomb someone like hiashi the same way he did to sasuke or would hiashi use body blow to counter the grab.

Hiashi could try to use body blow, but at the end of the day that shows that Gentle Fist in that scenario is useless. Ay is too fast for Neji or Hiashi to simply attack without him countering them. The speed gap is enormous. Hebi Sasuke already dwarfs these two in shunshin speed and reflexes, and Ay is even far beyond him in that category.

There's a reason why the only times 64 palms have ever been successful it's been against foes Neji was far faster than.

-Base Naruto.
-Kidomaru.
-Hinata used it on a Juubi fodder.

Btw, if by "in the process" you actually mean that they've landed the first 2 hits then it's debatable. If the workings of the jutsu prevents you from countering due to your chakra points being closed off, then no, he can't.

 

[Draegod]

Hiashi could try to use body blow, but at the end of the day that shows that Gentle Fist in that scenario is useless. Ay is too fast for Neji or Hiashi to simply attack without him countering them. The speed gap is enormous. Hebi Sasuke already dwarfs these two in shunshin speed and reflexes, and Ay is even far beyond him in that category.

There's a reason why the only times 64 palms have ever been successful it's been against foes Neji was far faster than.

-Base Naruto.
-Kidomaru.
-Hinata used it on a Juubi fodder.

Btw, if by "in the process" you actually mean that they've landed the first 2 hits then it's debatable. If the workings of the jutsu prevents you from countering due to your chakra points being closed off, then no, he can't.

What does shunshin (chakra) speed have to do with the scenario? Are you saying; That from a distance; Sasuke would shunshin towards them? Or, are you saying; Sasuke would escape from close range via shunshin? Aye has been shown to do either or on a regular, hebi sasuke has not or any sasuke under EMS/Rennigan.

Hiashi's eyes perfectly tracked something that was Godly faster then Sasuke no difficulty.

 

[KidGamer65]

What does shunshin (chakra) speed have to do with the scenario? Are you saying; That from a distance; Sasuke would shunshin towards them? Or, are you saying; Sasuke would escape from close range via shunshin? Aye has been shown to do either or on a regular, hebi sasuke has not or any sasuke under EMS/Rennigan.

Hiashi's eyes perfectly tracked something that was Godly faster then Sasuke no difficulty.

Huh? I said the speed gap between the Neji, who is faster than Hiashi, and Ay is large. I already clearly stated what happens in the scenario (That has nothing to do with Sasuke) presented by OP in his post. In general terms outside of said scenario, I said Sasuke and Ay are too fast for Neji and Hiashi to attack without them countering.

Hiashi has zero top tier speed feats let alone feats of tracking something faster than Sasuke. :lol

 

[Draegod]

Huh? I said the speed gap between the Neji, who is faster than Hiashi, and Ay is large. I already clearly stated what happens in the scenario (That has nothing to do with Sasuke) presented by OP in his post. In general terms outside of said scenario, I said Sasuke and Ay are too fast for Neji and Hiashi to attack without them countering.

Hiashi has zero top tier speed feats let alone feats of tracking something faster than Sasuke. :lol

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Now I really don't care to go into detail since its been about 2 years since Ive posted on the site seriously. But, For something to cross over 100 miles in seconds... DO you want me to show you calcs? I'm sure you get the guest of how fast that is (even though I know you probably have no idea in this subject how fast that is), Hiashi effortlessly not only followed the TBB, he knew its exact location of explosion with out being with the shinobi alliance planet sensor sphere. This not only shows he can track anything ever shown by Hebi sasuke effortlessly, but Shunhin requires chakra, and that would be sensed and dealt with accordingly.

Im not good with research anymore on Naruto, seeing as Ive long since moved passed it with other more important things nor do I want to waste time on naruto "Debates", so please forgive me if I dont respond with a back and forward argument. You're more than entitled to think what ever.

 

[KidGamer65]

-snip-

Come on now. I shouldn't have to tell you why this argument falls flat on it's face. What is shown is that Hiashi was able to see the town that was destroyed. Where does the Manga imply that he perfectly tracked it's entire course of movement from point A to point B while it was in motion? Nowhere. All he'd need is to see the BD and it's trajectory to know where to look. Meanwhile it's already a fact that Hiashi is slower than Neji, who is canonically slower than Sasuke in every way based on every DB stat and every feat in Shippuden.

That's not even all that's wrong with this post. We have the fact that Juubito can't move as fast as that Bijuu Dama, yet BSM Naruto and EMS Sasuke were having trouble following his movements. RSM Naruto can move that fast yet god tiers have trouble following his movements. Are you going to claim that Hiashi>God tiers in speed? I hope not. The little Shunshin chakra thing is irrelevant. Hiashi knowing when Sasuke is going to use Shunshin doesn't change anything that's been said in this thread.

Then we have the fact this is all irrelevant to everything said in this thread so idk why you are even trying to argue this point. To prove that Hebi Sasuke can't blitz Hiashi? :lol No one said he could anyway.

But yeah, no. Not a speed feat, but that much should've been obvious without me typing this post.

 

[Draegod]

Come on now. I shouldn't have to tell you why this argument falls flat on it's face. What is shown is that Hiashi was able to see the town that was destroyed. Where does the Manga imply that he perfectly tracked it's entire course of movement from point A to point B while it was in motion? Nowhere. All he'd need is to see the BD and it's trajectory to know where to look. Meanwhile it's already a fact that Hiashi is slower than Neji, who is canonically slower than Sasuke in every way based on every DB stat and every feat in Shippuden.

That's not even all that's wrong with this post. We have the fact that Juubito can't move as fast as that Bijuu Dama, yet BSM Naruto and EMS Sasuke were having trouble following his movements. RSM Naruto can move that fast yet god tiers have trouble following his movements. Are you going to claim that Hiashi>God tiers in speed? I hope not. The little Shunshin chakra thing is irrelevant. Hiashi knowing when Sasuke is going to use Shunshin doesn't change anything that's been said in this thread.

Then we have the fact this is all irrelevant to everything said in this thread so idk why you are even trying to argue this point. To prove that Hebi Sasuke can't blitz Hiashi? :lol No one said he could anyway.

But yeah, no. Not a speed feat, but that much should've been obvious without me typing this post.

I'll keep this short (or try, you know how my "short" post are.lol). The TBB was fired, maybe a few seconds later the town was destroyed, Kishi then immediately show HIashi stating a Far away town was destroyed in detail. In order for him to even know that town (that was surrounded by mountains) was destroyed he had to for a fact had to had followed the TBB from start to finished, since, For a fact he stated the town was destroyed, not seconds, minutes, hours later, but, the moment it happened. This is shown in the manga and shown in the Anime to show how fast he stated the damage. The speed of that Bomb is considered distance speed=/=Foot speed=/=travel speed (obv it doesnt have feet, but it is indeed traveling). Hiashi based off facts from the manga shown instantly stated what happened. This equates to his Byakugans prowess to follow extremely fast objects in motion is what im showing. Thus, he can effortlessly track sasuke in motion.

And, even with your logic; "Nowhere. All he'd need is to see the BD and it's trajectory to know where to look", You just basically stated He would always predict his opponents next location before they made it from point A to point B. Eitherway,

1. He tracked the massively fast TBB to its location and called its explosion immediately (what was shown in the manga, doesn't have to be stated when its literally pictures)
2. He knew where it would be landing based off its trajectory and location of motion and predicted its explosion the INSTANT it happen. That's some fast country level eye traveling don't you think?

 

[Draegod]

But like you said, its niether here nor there. Just pointing out Hebi sasuke's speed would never ever be a problem for Hiashi in a fight.

 

[BLAZE]

kakashi and bunch of fodders saw the same what hiashi saw on next page.Bijuudama's explosion.No one would argue those bunch of fodders would react to hebi sasuke

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[Made in Heaven]

How's the opponent countering with no Chakra? All those scans/moves you showed need Chakra :lol

 

[KidGamer65]

I'll keep this short (or try, you know how my "short" post are.lol). The TBB was fired, maybe a few seconds later the town was destroyed, Kishi then immediately show HIashi stating a Far away town was destroyed in detail. In order for him to even know that town (that was surrounded by mountains) was destroyed he had to for a fact had to had followed the TBB from start to finished, since, For a fact he stated the town was destroyed, not seconds, minutes, hours later, but, the moment it happened. This is shown in the manga and shown in the Anime to show how fast he stated the damage. The speed of that Bomb is considered distance speed=/=Foot speed=/=travel speed (obv it doesnt have feet, but it is indeed traveling). Hiashi based off facts from the manga shown instantly stated what happened. This equates to his Byakugans prowess to follow extremely fast objects in motion is what im showing. Thus, he can effortlessly track sasuke in motion.

And, even with your logic; "Nowhere. All he'd need is to see the BD and it's trajectory to know where to look", You just basically stated He would always predict his opponents next location before they made it from point A to point B. Eitherway,

1. He tracked the massively fast TBB to its location and called its explosion immediately (what was shown in the manga, doesn't have to be stated when its literally pictures)
2. He knew where it would be landing based off its trajectory and location of motion and predicted its explosion the INSTANT it happen. That's some fast country level eye traveling don't you think?

Nope. Your logic is still flawed. Whatever is in range of his eye is what he can see. [

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] So if his range is 10km he can see anything in that 10 km stretch.

-BD is fired.
-Hiashi sees the direction.
-Town blows up.
-Hiashi sees town blow up.

This argument would only work if his vision focused on the bomb itself and he followed said bomb all the way to the town, and even then that wouldn't be the same as what Sharingan does.

The point you are making with him saying the town was destroyed "in an instant" doesn't help your argument either. The time between launch and the explosion is all you need to know to make a statement like that, and you don't need Byakugan to figure it out because they were present when it was fired and

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(But this doesn't really matter because again, Hiashi can see everything in that stretch, not just the bomb)

And you ignored everything else in my post. We already know Hiashi's speed level beyond a shadow of a doubt, and it's not fast enough to let him track a bomb that crosses a country in a few seconds in the same manner Sasuke would track Juubito to land hits on him. If said bomb was fired at him from that range he'd be blown to bits before he could even blink. If Juubito, RSM Naruto, or even Ay or KCM Naruto rushed Hiashi from a normal distance he'd be unable to react in the slightest and they are nowhere near as fast as that bomb. So how is this evidence of Hiashi's reaction speed?

Also the farther away from objects you are, the easier it is to see them. If you are on the side of the freeway it'll appear that cars are zooming past you, but if you are on a bridge far above the freeway the cars will appear to be moving slower. [

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] If this is all to show that Hiashi can react to Sasuke you're wasting your time because I never said he couldn't, but the argument you are making to say he can doesn't make sense.

But like you said, its niether here nor there. Just pointing out Hebi sasuke's speed would never ever be a problem for Hiashi in a fight.

It'll definitely be a problem. Hiashi is slower than Neji. Neji is far slower than Sasuke. Will Sasuke be able to blitz him? No, but that doesn't mean his speed won't be a problem.

 

[Draegod]

kakashi and bunch of fodders saw the same what hiashi saw on next page.Bijuudama's explosion.No one would argue those bunch of fodders would react to hebi sasuke

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No, They seen the aftermath of a TBB that exploded not to far from them. Literally shows that if the bomb was to figuratively Lie down, it would touch them.

The TBB that Hiashi seen was off grid from their eye site. That same blast made the sensor team fear

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was safe based off distance of it's TBB's.

 

[Draegod]

Nope. Your logic is still flawed. Whatever is in range of his eye is what he can see. [

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] So if his range is 10km he can see anything in that 10 km stretch.

-BD is fired.
-Hiashi sees the direction.
-Town blows up.
-Hiashi sees town blow up.

This argument would only work if his vision focused on the bomb itself and he followed said bomb all the way to the town, and even then that wouldn't be the same as what Sharingan does.

The point you are making with him saying the town was destroyed "in an instant" doesn't help your argument either. The time between launch and the explosion is all you need to know to make a statement like that, and you don't need Byakugan to figure it out because they were present when it was fired and

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And you ignored everything else in my post. We already know Hiashi's speed level beyond a shadow of a doubt, and it's not fast enough to let him track a bomb that crosses a country in a few seconds in the same manner Sasuke would track Juubito to land hits on him. If said bomb was fired at him from that range he'd be blown to bits before he could even blink. If Juubito, RSM Naruto, or even Ay or KCM Naruto rushed Hiashi from a normal distance he'd be unable to react in the slightest and they are nowhere near as fast as that bomb. So how is this evidence of Hiashi's reaction speed?

Also the farther away from objects you are, the easier it is to see them. If you are on the side of the freeway it'll appear that cars are zooming past you, but if you are on a bridge far above the freeway the cars will appear to be moving slower. [

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] If this is all to show that Hiashi can react to Sasuke you're wasting your time because I never said he couldn't, but the argument you are making to say he can doesn't make sense.



It'll definitely be a problem. Hiashi is slower than Neji. Neji is far slower than Sasuke. Will Sasuke be able to blitz him? No, but that doesn't mean his speed won't be a problem.

And we also know The byakugan can focus its

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, this secondary ability isnt its widespread vision ability. And even then, according to your logic; If you are with in his range and move with in it, he will always no where you are from start to finish in motion.

Again, look at scans and order of the manga panels. The bomb you and blaze are showing was literally the first TBB it fired, not the 2nd to 3rd, so Moot point on that post. The 2 bombs after that was out side their range, fact since it was not shown in their field of vision.

And you're mistaking me saying he himself moves at that speed. I'm stating his Byakugan can perfectly track said speed, not that hiashi himself runs at that speed. It takes little to no time to burst chakra out of your body, almost zero time! If he has the mental awareness to see when a bomb left from point A to point B and called its explosion the moment it happened out of eye site, that means he can track slower things similar. In the powerhouses case that you are bringing up, he doesnt have the firepower to even grasp their combat speed and power behind their movements that will follow. The characters you list move faster then what he can dish out. This is Hebi Sauce we're talking about.

And again, Just because your eyes and brain can track something, doesnt mean you yourself can run the same speed. I never once said Hiashi can run that fast.

And, you're right, we're not even on point of the thread, so its pointless at this point.