How can any new jutsu or power not be a butt pull? Is it even possible with you?

chaos control

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Kakashi during chuunin exam: WHen your chakra reaches 0, you die! This happended to Obito twice over.- Contridiction

Nagato-Rinne Tensei is a technique that allows me to ressurrect those who have died at the cost of my own life. -Obito was forced to use Rinne Tensei to revive Madara. Didn't die. - Contridiction

Black Zetsu took over Obito's body- Obito should have already been dead but Zetsu was keeping him alive. Fine-After Zetsu left a lifless body brought back to life by Naruto- Contridiction

Obito's body was turned to cinder by Kaguya's Bone attack- Phoenix Obito rose from the ashes to magically bestow both Sharingan to Kakashi whose body could barely even handle 1 MS So if he could do this, why couldn't Dan do it with Tsunade?-Contridiction

Dude this manga is full of contridictions.

1. Obito's chakara never reached 0. When people say "I am out of chakara" (which I don't recall Obito saying) they just mean that their chakara levels are too low for them to continue fighting. You people take it too literally. If his chakara was at 0, he couldn't even move. It was explained that even normal body motions and functions use a little chakara.

2. Black Zetsu was actually on Obito when he forced him to revive Madara. Therefore BZ was already keeping Obito alive. Also Konan stated that Nagato would die if it was used at the chakara levels that Nagato had at that point. It wasn't until the war when the thing about dying upon use of rinne tensei
was established.

3. Obito stated that's his presence in Kakashi's mind was only temporary as well as the power (just as Dan's presence was temporary within Tsunade). Therefore there is no contradiction here.
 

Titania Erza

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The only thing that is nowhere near valid is your own argument. When I said "the manga has established that you need to work to perfect a technique", I didn't think there was any room for confusion on what I meant. This manga has made it fact from chapter 1 that in order to do ANYTHING JUTSU RELATED you need to practice it. I did not mean that any jutsu shown is perfect. No jutsu is perfect.

Different things may take shorter or longer times to master than others, but that does not mean by any stretch of the phrase that you can master a jutsu the first time you do it. Minato took [I believe it was] 3 years to "master" the Rasengan. Naruto took 3 days, and then 3 years beyond that to evolve the Rasengan even further. Not even Sasuke, a prodigy with the Sharingan, can learn something that quickly. He learned the Chidori from Kakashi, but it took him 3 years to master it the way he does now. How hard does it look to combine Kamui and Raikiri? It looks impossible to me, considering Kamui is Space/Time tech and Raikiri is chakra manipulation. Naruto had to train his ass off to learn the basic form of the RasenShuriken, which is the same learning curve as what is needed to pull off a "Kamui Raikiri". A learning curve I'd like to add that Kakashi himself admitted he could never do [which just adds to the ass pull list, by the way].

Your logic about Kaguya also makes no sense at all. You're confusing plot progression with story creation. When you tell a story, theres an unwritten rule about the story teller making sure to follow any rules that HE/SHE CREATES ABOUT HIS OWN STORY. Breaking this unspoken rule has a term of its own: its called a plothole. The term that people have adopted for this particular story has the same effect, but a different name: its called an ass pull. Kishi created a rule that says, "characters must work to achieve something". That rule was more like a theme, as that was what Naruto was all about. Working your ass off to achieve something. Now he's breaking that rule by handing out power ups to characters that have no business with them in the first place. Thats called a plothole, also known as an ass pull. Kaguya's presence changes none of that, because her introduction falls under PLOT PROGRESSION not STORY CREATION. I don't mind Kaguya being introduced into the story. Its the road that lead to it I have a problem with.

If I told you a story about a kid who never did anything immoral in his life. Was the boy scout of his generation; the captain america of his age group. Little Johnny then took a test in school one day. PLOT PROGRESSION is little Johnny failing the test. Its a variable that, regardless of whether he passes or fails, cannot be changed. STORY CREATION is little Johnny never doing an immoral thing in his life, yet the reason why he failed the test is because he cheated on it. Make sense?


And PS: While it may not take years to make your next ham sandwich, never forget that the "professional" is the man behind the counter at your favorite restaurant that spend years learning how to make one.
Dude Kamui Raikiri is Kakashi using Raikiri while using Kamui at the same time to slip through the rod. More or less as hard as using Amaterasu while Susano'o is active.

"Less Strategically Inclined" ... There's no longer deep planning, and feints and deceptions HAVE ALWAYS been apart of Naruto's repertoire. No matter what, there's an EXTREME difference between the fighting then and now... And you want proof of that? Just watch Sasuke vs. Deidara all over again, or even go back to Part I with Neji vs. Kidomaru or Shikamaru vs. Tayuya, Where Strategy DOMINATED raw power.... These days, A>B>C logic works extremely well as it wasn't the case just before this war started.
Your comparision is a big fail. The power difference wasnt as drastical as now. For example the plan Shikimaru created to stop the Juubi's TBB which failed and Minato was just in time to teleport it away shows how strategy camt beat raw strength if the difference is enough. Strategy can only cover a certain amoint of power difference. If team 7 would have somehow won against Kaguya without all the recent power-ups would be the biggest asspull.
 

V h o

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I can buy that. I figured he had some. But I didn't think he got it from Naruto. It's fine he stole it from Madara. so that is okay with me.

I can believe it more myself. Him getting rikudo chakra from Naruto doesn't make sense with me, since that would imply Kakashi and Gai got rikudo chakra from Naruto with their healing.
 

Umari Senju

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Dude Kamui Raikiri is Kakashi using Raikiri while using Kamui at the same time to slip through the rod. More or less as hard as using Amaterasu while Susano'o is active.

Your comparision is a big fail. The power difference wasnt as drastical as now. For example the plan Shikimaru created to stop the Juubi's TBB which failed and Minato was just in time to teleport it away shows how strategy camt beat raw strength if the difference is enough. Strategy can only cover a certain amoint of power difference. If team 7 would have somehow won against Kaguya without all the recent power-ups would be the biggest asspull.

I totally agree with you. And I've said this a million times before. It's not the powerups themselves that bother me. It's how many of them were obtained and how often.

It's the Deus Ex Machina complex here. These enemies introduced were so overwhelmingly powerful that the scaling was thrown out of wack and the only way for the heroes to win was to receive divine intervention in the form of Hagoromo and Obito-Phoenix. This, in turn, make them seem like a**pulls which honestly I can't really be all that surprised of.

Kishi penned himself in a corner when he introduced the Otsusuki family into the war, and was left with no other way of defeating them but with plot and intervention of a higher power. And they all happened way too fast, so the pacing went from far too slow to everything happening at once.

He then had to ignore his own world rules just to keep the story progressing forward so much of this arc feels disjointed and all over the place IMO
 

Koha

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I totally agree with you. And I've said this a million times before. It's not the powerups themselves that bother me. It's how many of them were obtained and how often.

It's the Deus Ex Machina complex here. These enemies introduced were so overwhelmingly powerful that the scaling was thrown out of wack and the only way for the heroes to win was to receive divine intervention in the form of Hagoromo and Obito-Phoenix. This, in turn, make them seem like a**pulls which honestly I can't really be all that surprised of.

Kishi penned himself in a corner when he introduced the Otsusuki family into the war, and was left with no other way of defeating them but with plot and intervention of a higher power. And they all happened way too fast, so the pacing went from far too slow to everything happening at once.

He then had to ignore his own world rules just to keep the story progressing forward so much of this arc feels disjointed and all over the place IMO

Exactly this.. It's just completely thrown the story outta wack, which makes it just bad writing, to have to ignore the rules you set up for this world for story progression.. And it's not our fault that most people don't enjoy such a drastic change of pace.

My comparison may have not been as strong, but it still actually counts for something that the Manga has been missing for a long time now. And now that Team 7 is more or less on Kaguya's level, shouldn't strategy be better used, rather than Raw Strength knowing that just power cannot defeat the Goddess of the NV?
 

NOemotions

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when something doesnt go the way ultimate fanboys wants.. = asspull.. simple as that.
 
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