Honest question: Did Kishi have a plan, or did he screw up? (Regarding the Byakugan)

FatherOfMurder

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Kishi had this all planned out, but he couldn't give spotlight to the Byakugan because then Neji would surpass Sasuage and Hinata would surpass Ms. Forehead
Watch your mouth when talking about goddess of the leaf :stfu: at least she doesn't stalk the person she loves...STALKERHIME

OT: I believe It was mostly, if not all planned out... After all, why would Kakashi say that the byakugan was older than the sharingan for no reson?​
 

Honord Sage

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All Kishi did is tied all the lose ends concerning the 4 Main Clans Uchiha, Senju, Uzumaki and Hyuga and how they are related to the SO6P. Their now all connected starting with Kayuga who is the First Bloodline to all 4 Clans the Eve so to speak.
 

Itachi Edo

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the Byakugan being the founder of the sharingan ties into TAOISM's japanese mythology of the wuji being the founder of the yin,

Kishi planned this from the start, even the 5 elements and the Jubi's ten tails ties into taoism,
This. It's crazy after all the myths and Shinto references that people still miss this. Kishi isn't randomly ass pulling here.
 

Aim64C

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Not trolling, not trying to start a flame war because those who think Kishi is a hack and those who think he's a God (or between those who think Part 1 Naruto was a masterpiece and Part 2 is terribad), just wondering people's honest opinions about the new revelations about the Byakugan and Kaguya.

I honestly think Kishi just messed this one up. I think early on he had the Byakugan as an integral part of the NV and the Hyuuga clan as one of the most important clans, but then entirely switched focus to the Sharingan and Rinnegan. I think he's finally reintroducing the importance of the Byakugan because he has to do *something* with it, given how much hype it had Part 1. Hell, Danzo was collecting Sharingan like they were baseball cards, but the Byakugan was protected by a curse seal. It's the most lusted after kekkai genkei in other villages! It's amazing! And then...we barely see it since the time skip, besides Ao using it to reveal Danzo's treachery.

But I could be wrong. Kishi could have been planning this all along for the Byakugan.








There's a lot that is about to happen that has been planned for a very, very long time.

The "grand architecture" has been planned since the beginning of Naruto. You don't come up with many of these inter-relationships of philosophy, religions, legends, etc 'as you go.'

But Kishimoto is a relatively poor story teller. He tries to build plot suspense through increasingly powerful enemies (the Dragon Ball Z fallacy) and ends up having to abuse very poor plot mechanics to make side characters relevant or to progress main characters to deal with the threat. This is evidenced in several places where Naruto is allowed to do things that were expressly stated as being beyond his limitations (shadow clone spam in beast cloak mode).

The concept of relative strength has gone completely out of whack. Jonin level combat during the first arc is on a completely different level from Jonin combat in the current arc.

It's the fleshing out of the story that Kishimoto has been relatively poor at doing and where he seems to have yielded to compulsion.
 
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No manga artist draws his whole life and does things on a whim or screw things up.

Stop listening to these haters poor excuses. they upset they dont understand the manga.
QFT. I love when people act like Kishi is a mad squirrel with ADD and a pencil. like he's making everything up as he goes along. he has had a plot outlined from the beginning and is literally the all powerful all knowing God of NV. he knows everything that has ever happened and ever will happen. it's all laid out already. he just doesn't always share that, and can make adjustments here and there. there isn't going to be any major shit he forgot. he probably has a hundred avid fan/critics read and analyze every chapter months before they're written officially and released. they aren't going to miss anything like that even if kishi somehow does.
 
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There's a lot that is about to happen that has been planned for a very, very long time.

The "grand architecture" has been planned since the beginning of Naruto. You don't come up with many of these inter-relationships of philosophy, religions, legends, etc 'as you go.'

But Kishimoto is a relatively poor story teller. He tries to build plot suspense through increasingly powerful enemies (the Dragon Ball Z fallacy) and ends up having to abuse very poor plot mechanics to make side characters relevant or to progress main characters to deal with the threat. This is evidenced in several places where Naruto is allowed to do things that were expressly stated as being beyond his limitations (shadow clone spam in beast cloak mode).

The concept of relative strength has gone completely out of whack. Jonin level combat during the first arc is on a completely different level from Jonin combat in the current arc.

It's the fleshing out of the story that Kishimoto has been relatively poor at doing and where he seems to have yielded to compulsion.
See to me it's like an advanced arm's race. Kishi has stressed throughout the series the power of rivalry. This is what made Madara and Hashirama gods amongst men. they were so much more powerful than any others in their generation that it was a joke. BUT all other people were totally irrelevant, they only needed to be more powerful than one another. so mthey kept getting stronger even though they were both unecessarily strong to the point where it didn't even make any sense.

The following generations were not as strong because they lacked that rivalry until this current generation which has surpassed all previous ones back to Hashirama and Madara, who were clearly still far shy of what the sage and his brother did. this is why I believe his brother was probably evil and there is a strong rivalry between good and evil here.


This is like the arms race between russia and the USA. we could blow up the entire planet 47 times in the 80s... there is no need for that!! except to be able to e more powerful than our rival..

The power of rivalry evolves species and fighters to new levels. that is why Sasuke and Naruto are so much more powerful than everyone else in their generation too..


just a thought
 

G 0 OMF godly

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You were the one in denial about Kaguya having no Byakugan, so shush.

Besides, I said they WOULd IF kishi had developed it; but he didn't cause he couldn't have two side characters surpassing the main characters. He basically hindered it's power
I was never in denial of kaguya being a hyuga, show me a post of mines proving your claim
 
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QFT. I love when people act like Kishi is a mad squirrel with ADD and a pencil. like he's making everything up as he goes along. he has had a plot outlined from the beginning and is literally the all powerful all knowing God of NV. he knows everything that has ever happened and ever will happen. it's all laid out already. he just doesn't always share that, and can make adjustments here and there. there isn't going to be any major shit he forgot. he probably has a hundred avid fan/critics read and analyze every chapter months before they're written officially and released. they aren't going to miss anything like that even if kishi somehow does.
He has editors and assistants, who certainly help with continuity. It'd be very hard to avoid plot holes without having other people to revise your work.
 
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I don't doubt that the mythology is consistent, but I'm still not sure how much of this was drawn out from the beginning and how much had to be invented on the fly due to an evolvingly complex story.
 

Aim64C

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See to me it's like an advanced arm's race. Kishi has stressed throughout the series the power of rivalry. This is what made Madara and Hashirama gods amongst men. they were so much more powerful than any others in their generation that it was a joke. BUT all other people were totally irrelevant, they only needed to be more powerful than one another. so mthey kept getting stronger even though they were both unecessarily strong to the point where it didn't even make any sense.
The problem with this is that, logically speaking, Sasuke should never be able to compete in a power-struggle against a Jinchuriki. No matter how you string it - even Susano'o should become nothing but a crater under so much as Shukaku's power.

That doesn't mean that there is nothing a non-jinchuriki can do (or that Jinchuriki are completely limitless in power) - but it makes absolutely no sense for a human being to be able to rival a jinchuriki on the premise of competition.

It's like saying I can compete with the power of an industrial robot and overcome it because I'm competing with it - or that I could over-drive my nervous system to the point that I could compete with an electric eel's capability.

I understand the point of your argument - but from a logical standpoint - Naruto is a character who gets his own personal nuclear reactor to draw power from. It used to be that Naruto was in conflict with that power source, but once that conflict was resolved - power started to scale out of proportion because he can quite literally level mountains.

To challenge that power - with yet more power (within the same arc spanning a time frame of only a couple days) is just silly. It makes the whole story feel forced and arbitrary.

The following generations were not as strong because they lacked that rivalry until this current generation which has surpassed all previous ones back to Hashirama and Madara, who were clearly still far shy of what the sage and his brother did. this is why I believe his brother was probably evil and there is a strong rivalry between good and evil here.
It's hard to say exactly what previous generations were like. There is a huge gap between the Sage's sons and Madara/Hashirama - and it would be silly to say they were not mountain-movers in their own right.

It's not really good versus evil. It's two interpretations for how to bring about peace. It's power and control versus understanding and liberty (essentially). I would contend that attempting to control the lives of others is fundamentally evil - but that doesn't necessarily mean the person behind it is evil. Kaguya wasn't evil - she simply followed the path of expedience - use power to accomplish your well-intentioned goals.

This is like the arms race between russia and the USA. we could blow up the entire planet 47 times in the 80s... there is no need for that!! except to be able to e more powerful than our rival..
Don't get me started on the fallacies propagated during that era (we couldn't even destroy a state the size of Missouri with the world's nuclear arsenal at its peak).

That said - the arms race broke both of our countries. We weren't really getting more powerful - we were simply pumping more effort into a facade.

The power of rivalry evolves species and fighters to new levels. that is why Sasuke and Naruto are so much more powerful than everyone else in their generation too..
They are more powerful because Naruto has "nuke-on-demand" capability and Sasuke is supposed to be a relevant rival - and Kishimoto has yielded to expedience and decided that they both need to have the ability to blow up mountains to be rivals. I think he was going to go the direction of Sasuke being able to use genjutsu and other clever tools of deception to keep Naruto's 'tard strength' from being able to hit Sasuke... but it seems he went another direction (probably because someone from Jump insisted it would be more dramatic).
 
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The problem with this is that, logically speaking, Sasuke should never be able to compete in a power-struggle against a Jinchuriki. No matter how you string it - even Susano'o should become nothing but a crater under so much as Shukaku's power.

That doesn't mean that there is nothing a non-jinchuriki can do (or that Jinchuriki are completely limitless in power) - but it makes absolutely no sense for a human being to be able to rival a jinchuriki on the premise of competition.

It's like saying I can compete with the power of an industrial robot and overcome it because I'm competing with it - or that I could over-drive my nervous system to the point that I could compete with an electric eel's capability.
See I completely disagree. there is plenty of evidence to support that while Jinchuriki are extremely powerful (especially when they learn to control and work with their tailed beast) there are still other methods and jutsu that can rival it. Orochimaru is a perfect example, even in a weakened state with a weak body. And in addition to the superb jutsu of the Uchiha, and the cursemark, Sasuke learned much of Orochimaru's jutsu, and kept growing in power.


I understand the point of your argument - but from a logical standpoint - Naruto is a character who gets his own personal nuclear reactor to draw power from. It used to be that Naruto was in conflict with that power source, but once that conflict was resolved - power started to scale out of proportion because he can quite literally level mountains.

To challenge that power - with yet more power (within the same arc spanning a time frame of only a couple days) is just silly. It makes the whole story feel forced and arbitrary.



It's hard to say exactly what previous generations were like. There is a huge gap between the Sage's sons and Madara/Hashirama - and it would be silly to say they were not mountain-movers in their own right.

It's not really good versus evil. It's two interpretations for how to bring about peace. It's power and control versus understanding and liberty (essentially). I would contend that attempting to control the lives of others is fundamentally evil - but that doesn't necessarily mean the person behind it is evil. Kaguya wasn't evil - she simply followed the path of expedience - use power to accomplish your well-intentioned goals.
generally perceived as evil. not evil of course. Though I do think The sage's brother will be "EVIL". I'm expecting him to be named shortly and have my own theory on who he is.


Don't get me started on the fallacies propagated during that era (we couldn't even destroy a state the size of Missouri with the world's nuclear arsenal at its peak).

That said - the arms race broke both of our countries. We weren't really getting more powerful - we were simply pumping more effort into a facade.



They are more powerful because Naruto has "nuke-on-demand" capability and Sasuke is supposed to be a relevant rival - and Kishimoto has yielded to expedience and decided that they both need to have the ability to blow up mountains to be rivals. I think he was going to go the direction of Sasuke being able to use genjutsu and other clever tools of deception to keep Naruto's 'tard strength' from being able to hit Sasuke... but it seems he went another direction (probably because someone from Jump insisted it would be more dramatic).

I understand your point but respectfully disagree.
 

Aim64C

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See I completely disagree. there is plenty of evidence to support that while Jinchuriki are extremely powerful (especially when they learn to control and work with their tailed beast) there are still other methods and jutsu that can rival it. Orochimaru is a perfect example, even in a weakened state with a weak body. And in addition to the superb jutsu of the Uchiha, and the cursemark, Sasuke learned much of Orochimaru's jutsu, and kept growing in power.
Jutsu are techniques. They do not, in and of themselves, possess power (though certain ones require a minimum amount of power to work).

Within the context of the story - yes, there are ways to -increase the available chakra-. But that chakra, logically, must come from somewhere. Jinchuriki get the tailed beast as an explanation. The curse mark and sage mode draw upon nature energy. Allegedly - edo tensei draws from nature chakra, as well. The special Yin Seal that Tsunade and Sakura use are examples of another means of side-stepping classical limitations.

The Uchiha and Sharingan violate all of these. They get bijuu-rivaling chakra simply out of principle. The Senju could, arguably, fall into the same category. The source of their power is *poof* - magical hand of the author.

I would say that an Edo Tensei borderlines on this insanity, as well. If the edo tag were to be said to be drawing in ambient chakra (nature and that of ninjutsu) - it could pose a complication for certain techniques and if many edo are operating in close proximity to each other (particularly chakra-heavy edos). An edo could theoretically deplete much of the chakra available in the immediate area (the same could be said about Sage Mode and Curse Marks).

I would say that Nagato falls under this same category. Though we can give him a bit of a pass because he's an Uzumaki with the Rinnegan... it's into the realm of being ridiculous for an otherwise unaugmented human being to be able to call upon that much power.

Kakashi, in that regard, has been a relatively honest character. While his capabilities have improved - they are still in line with what could be expected of an unaugmented human broaching on Kage level.

It undermines the whole message of the series - which has been the notion that true power comes from bonds with others than from one's own self. While the main characters should always be important - it should never feel ridiculous that the side characters are able to come to the aid of the main characters. You shouldn't feel like you're reading a plot, but that you're peering into another universe and watching it unfold.

generally perceived as evil. not evil of course. Though I do think The sage's brother will be "EVIL". I'm expecting him to be named shortly and have my own theory on who he is.
It's hard to say at this point. The Sage's brother could be a jog in a direction that has been only vaguely referenced but tied in with the mythology... or it could be something logically obvious.

It's possible that the Sage's brother was evil. It could also be possible that the Sage's brother was not evil at all. Hell - he could be 'The Ramen Guy' - which would be pretty friggin' hilarious.

I understand your point but respectfully disagree.
Let's look at it from just the two main characters.

Naruto is a Jinchuriki with Sage Mode and just so happens to be an Uzumaki to top it all off.

Sasuke is an Uchiha who once had a curse mark and studied under Orochimaru.

Under no rational plot is Sasuke going to be able to go toe-to-toe with Naruto. He could use a ploy here, a strategy there, and fight by not getting hit and exploiting weaknesses - but if he tries to fight the same fight as Naruto - he gets smashed.

Unless you go to unreasonable lengths to say that Sasuke, by virtue of being an Uchiha ... and... well Sasuke - is capable of standing toe to toe with "beast sage mode" .... it doesn't work within the mechanics of the series.

Animes are horribly guilty of doing this type of thing. When it doubt, add some kind of transformation or introduce unobtanium and suddenly a character goes from certain defeat to a certain victory as an absolute bad-ass. Bleach is especially guilty of that. It would make sense if 'harmonizing' with one's soul (zanpakuto) lead to being able to access more power and more techniques relatively suddenly (like an epiphany) - but going from near-death and exhausted and struggling to breathe to "Yep... gonna cut you in half, now. Oh... you can swing a sword, too. Cute. *boom*" is just silly.

And that is largely what Kishimoto is doing with Naruto, here.

Even when he tries to make use of more interesting plot ploys - like Naruto sharing Kurama's power with his friends... it goes horribly unutilized in the plot. Kishimoto made an 'excuse' for even the most mundane of characters with quirky little techniques to suddenly be able to become temporary demi-gods with those techniques going from gimmicky to devastating.

Then we could have had a good 'coming to Jesus' moment with a "Good Job, Naruto - we managed to do a bit more than -not die- because of your sharing of power rather than hoarding it."

It's the little stuff that Kishimoto hasn't thought out too well, and with something as dynamic as a war, I am sure he is struggling with the publishing time-frame.
 

SkyGodHorus

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Not trolling, not trying to start a flame war because those who think Kishi is a hack and those who think he's a God (or between those who think Part 1 Naruto was a masterpiece and Part 2 is terribad), just wondering people's honest opinions about the new revelations about the Byakugan and Kaguya.

I honestly think Kishi just messed this one up. I think early on he had the Byakugan as an integral part of the NV and the Hyuuga clan as one of the most important clans, but then entirely switched focus to the Sharingan and Rinnegan. I think he's finally reintroducing the importance of the Byakugan because he has to do *something* with it, given how much hype it had Part 1. Hell, Danzo was collecting Sharingan like they were baseball cards, but the Byakugan was protected by a curse seal. It's the most lusted after kekkai genkei in other villages! It's amazing! And then...we barely see it since the time skip, besides Ao using it to reveal Danzo's treachery.

But I could be wrong. Kishi could have been planning this all along for the Byakugan.
Mmmmmm, you may be on to something. Writers do edit, retcon and change their concepts after all.

I believe Kishimoto made the Byakugan a bit overpowered and due to that decided to go away from it or just thought the Hyuga just didn't have much more potential or role beyond the first part of the manga.

I believe he has even stated that he originally meant to kill off Neji in the Rescue Sasuke arc but feared the fan backlash, so he decided to let him live until these final arcs.

However, he also stated he constructed Hinata before Sakura and put more effort into her, possibly implying he originally meant to make her the main heroine.

I'm really not sure. The Byakugan appears to be limited to scanning and the use of Taijutsu so perhaps it was originally and still is inferior to the sharingan.

Those are my thoughts on the matter.
 

GreyWizard93

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Not "on a whim," but most mangaka/authors don't have all 671 chapters planned out in their head as soon as they start a project.
no your right.

who could hold all 671 chapters in their mind?

its obviously been planned years in advance and written down millions of times.
if kishi were to change something/new idea hes definitely made sure it fits in.

if he didnt, he wouldnt be a good writer and good writers dont get published.

+ im sure his team would question every change.
 

Jowy Atreides

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However, he also stated he constructed Hinata before Sakura and put more effort into her, possibly implying he originally meant to make her the main heroine.
when did he state that? the only characters are naruto/iruka before sasuke/sakura were created.

OT: no he didn't. he even stated in his latest interview "qn: what would you tell to your past self" and he answered "you'll be in big trouble if you don't put in more plot points.." meaning he made things up as he goes. minakushi are only created because he became a father himself.
 
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