Hiruzen WILL REGENERATE (manga proof)

[Jaded210]

But wasn't Tobirama damaged when Obito's charged and Hiruzen was destroyed by that black thing?

Tobirama was slashed thru with the orbs. Hiruzen was cut w/ the same staff as Minato (that took his arm) then was grabbed and an orb was blasted in his face and upper body.

 

[Zantos]

1- Hiruzen was fodderized by "V1" JUUBITO

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2- Tobirama was also destroyed by "V1" JUUBITO

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3- Tobirama DID regenerate

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4- Minato's arm was destroyed by "V2" Juubito

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So:

Hiruzen was atacked by a V1 Juubito, who didn't have the power of making edos "mortal" , Juubito got that power AFTER geting to v2.

The manga proof is that, Tobirama could regenerate from a v1 juubito's atacks (the same that got hiruzen) , but v2 juubito's atacks are the one dangerous to the edos...

Hiruzen will regenerate as well as tobirama did, since v1 juubito can't make EDOS become MORTALS (that's v2 jubito)

Thank God finally someone is talking logical !!

 

[Jaded210]

Minato and Sasuke confirmed that it was the real Tobirama that got hit.

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In between the above page and the one below (about 5 pages between), Sarutobi was the next to engage him in battle. Pay attention to Sasuke's analysis and Minato's words.

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He's saying they weren't afraid of dying because they're edo, that's why they got so close.

Lol naruto and Sasuke still can't even tell clones apart -_- even after tobirama returned the orb off of Minato he assured them not to worry cuz it was a clone.

Bottom line is no one has been shown to regenerate in any panel yet. We will just have to wait and see. We'll have to agree to disagree for now.

 

[Multiply]

I don't get how people are trying to refute the other manga fact. It's obvious Kishi dun fudged up here. There's two sides of this problem.
1. If the Tobirama that suicided was not indeed a clone, that means Tobirama regenerated about 4x faster than Hiruzen. Even when his damage was 100% destroyed. He was literally a pile of ash. Hiruzen had his head blown off. Hiruzen should have regenerated in at least half a chapter, since Tobirama regenerated in 1 chapter.

2. If it is a clone, that explains perfectly why Tobirama showed up fully.

Also, the properties of Juubito's and Rikubito's "liquid jinton", are the exact same based on manga fact. Juubito chopped up hiruzen's shuriken, the same way Rikubito chopped up Minato's kunai. I doubt Kishi would keep the exact same look of it, but make one property of it change.


You can choose to believe reason #1 where it makes no sense on how Tobirama regenerated faster than Hiruzen, or #2 where it makes much more sense. Not saying #1 isn't possible, but IMO #2 seems much more plausible.

 

[GiantShuriken]

Tobirama wasn't killed by the black orbs. He was cut apart by Juubito just charging through him with his brute strength/power, and then he blew the rest of himself up.

 

[Disquiet]

Lol naruto and Sasuke still can't even tell clones apart -_- even after tobirama returned the orb off of Minato he assured them not to worry cuz it was a clone.

Bottom line is no one has been shown to regenerate in any panel yet. We will just have to wait and see. We'll have to agree to disagree for now.

So Kishi just threw the explanation of why they're fighting him so close for no reason at all? Actually, you just said it yourself, they can't tell clones apart. Which means they have other reasons for knowing they're the real ones, observation. The incident you're talking about where Tobirama mention it's a clone is a completely separate event. As we saw, the real Tobirama was hit by that black thing, that same Tobirama blew himself up. This was in 639 btw, then in 641 Tobirama comes back and this time a clone is destroyed.


He makes his return here:

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Then on the next page:

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^As you can see in the top panel, there's an explosion. Minato, Sasuke, and Naruto is facing toward the direction of that explosion; where Tobirama and Obito are. Then, Tobirama appears behind them and says "Don't worry, it's just a clone." The flashback is just him talking about when he last tagged him.


Sasuke and Minato has already confirmed that Tobirama was hit and then regenerated. There's absolutely no reason to doubt their words, unless people just don't want to believe that Hiruzen will come back.

 

[Penguin]

Juubito is the one who fodderized Tobirama and Hiruzen.

Rikudobito is the one who fodderized Minato.

 

[BloodSeed]

ofcourse he would . it would be unfair for him to be foderized like that

 

[Disquiet]

I don't get how people are trying to refute the other manga fact. It's obvious Kishi dun fudged up here. There's two sides of this problem.
1. If the Tobirama that suicided was not indeed a clone, that means Tobirama regenerated about 4x faster than Hiruzen. Even when his damage was 100% destroyed. He was literally a pile of ash. Hiruzen had his head blown off. Hiruzen should have regenerated in at least half a chapter, since Tobirama regenerated in 1 chapter.

2. If it is a clone, that explains perfectly why Tobirama showed up fully.

Also, the properties of Juubito's and Rikubito's "liquid jinton", are the exact same based on manga fact. Juubito chopped up hiruzen's shuriken, the same way Rikubito chopped up Minato's kunai. I doubt Kishi would keep the exact same look of it, but make one property of it change.


You can choose to believe reason #1 where it makes no sense on how Tobirama regenerated faster than Hiruzen, or #2 where it makes much more sense. Not saying #1 isn't possible, but IMO #2 seems much more plausible.

The only thing left remaining on Hiruzen was his legs.

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Look at what Tobirama says: It should already be starting to recover, if he only ripped off one of your ams.

This could mean two things. The more the body is damaged, the longer it takes to recover. Or, it depends on which part of the body that is hit. Regardless, we can only speculate the time differences it would take between the two. But, it's now fact that they don't regenerate at the same time.

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As for the stuff you said, refer to my earlier posts.

Not only is there proof, but If you consider how silly it would be for him to die the way he did, it makes no sense at all to believe he is finished. There's absolutely nothing to support it.

 

[Multiply]

The only thing left remaining on Hiruzen was his legs.

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Look at what Tobirama says: It should already be starting to recover, if he only ripped off one of your ams.

This could mean two things. The more the body is damaged, the longer it takes to recover. Or, it depends on which part of the body that is hit. Regardless, we can only speculate the time differences it would take between the two. But, it's now fact that they don't regenerate at the same time.

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As for the stuff you said, refer to my earlier posts.

Not only is there proof, but If you consider how silly it would be for him to die the way he did, it makes no sense at all to believe he is finished. There's absolutely nothing to support it.

You answered yourself tbh. You yourself stated, the more the body is damaged, the longer it takes to regenerate. Tobirama's body would have been completely destroyed by the blast, if it's not a clone of course. Thus proving that, either Kishi forgot about Hiruzen, or it's manga fact that Hiruzen has been finished off.

 

[toviasrepier]

It would be pitiful if he did die again from that...

I could see that happening given Kishi trolled a lot.

 

[Disquiet]

You answered yourself tbh. You yourself stated, the more the body is damaged, the longer it takes to regenerate. Tobirama's body would have been completely destroyed by the blast, if it's not a clone of course. Thus proving that, either Kishi forgot about Hiruzen, or it's manga fact that Hiruzen has been finished off.

As I stated to you in your other thread, Madara was regenerated on the very next page after being destroyed by his own boulder. We can only speculate about the time differences, but it's fact that it's not always the same. And because of this fact, there's no reason to count out Hiruzen. Especially since Tobirama was his by the same attack.

The only reason members would continue to argue against is because they just don't him to come back.

 

[Multiply]

As I stated to you in your other thread, Madara was regenerated on the very next page after being destroyed by his own boulder. We can only speculate about the time differences, but it's fact that it's not always the same. And because of this fact, there's no reason to count out Hiruzen. Especially since Tobirama was his by the same attack.

The only reason members would continue to argue against is because they just don't him to come back.

That's because time can't be seen in that. The Meteor literally landed on them. It's not that I don't want him to come back, it's just after understanding the manga, it's likely he won't return. There's no visible difference in the technique Juubito use, and Rikubito use. The only this that's holding up your argument that Hiruzen might come back, is if Tobirama was a clone or not. It's more than likely Tobirama was a clone, because otherwise, he would have gone from 100% damaged, to 100% regenerated. Hiruzen is still just a pile of dust, and has been for like 4 chapters. There was no time skip between Tobirama's explosion.

 

[Disquiet]

That's because time can't be seen in that. The Meteor literally landed on them. It's not that I don't want him to come back, it's just after understanding the manga, it's likely he won't return. There's no visible difference in the technique Juubito use, and Rikubito use. The only this that's holding up your argument that Hiruzen might come back, is if Tobirama was a clone or not. It's more than likely Tobirama was a clone, because otherwise, he would have gone from 100% damaged, to 100% regenerated. Hiruzen is still just a pile of dust, and has been for like 4 chapters. There was no time skip between Tobirama's explosion.

@Bold What? He regenerated right after being crushed by the boulder. If you're arguing time can't be seen, that's like saying we don't know how much time passed between Tobirama being destroyed, when Hiruzen actually started the battle, battled, and then died.

There's no ifs, Minato and Sasuke confirmed the hokages strategy.

You're saying that Tobirama was a clone. Then, where was the real one during one entire chapter? You're saying you're okay with absence. In which case, it nullifies your statement about Hiruzen still being a pile of dust.

 

[Multiply]

@Bold What? He regenerated right after being crushed by the boulder. If you're arguing time can't be seen, that's like saying we don't know how much time passed between Tobirama being destroyed, when Hiruzen actually started the battle, battled, and then died.

There's no ifs, Minato and Sasuke confirmed the hokages strategy.

You're saying that Tobirama was a clone. Then, where was the real one during one entire chapter? You're saying you're okay with a lack of abscence. In which case, it nullifies your statement about Hiruzen being a pile of dust.

In the meteor bit, Madara was regenerating from the time after the blast, which the manga showed all of the dust settling after. I think it's like chapter 560-562? Then it shows Naruto running from the outside of the blast zone, all the way to the center to find the Tsuchikage. Onoki was directly under it, and Naruto was part of the group that tried to escape the meteor. Madara had a good amount of time to regenerate.


No they confirmed Hiruzen's strategy. Naruto's inquiry was about Hiruzen specifically. The real one was probably out of the scene, you make it seen like such a thing has never been done. Let me throw a few at you.

Kakashi Hatake: The ninja who literally never gets into a fight without first testing out the opponents strategy.
Naruto Uzumaki: He uses clones to deduce his opponents weak points(Kakuzu fight).

Both use clones, while Kishi usually keeps the focus on the main Naruto, with Kakashi he doesn't. Sometimes we think Kakashi is hit with something, and 9/10 it's a clone. Example: Kakashi vs Deva Path, Kakashi vs Itachi. Both times we didn't even know they were clones, yet it turned out to be one. He used the jutsu off screen. Don't try to make it completely implausible, then in the same sentence try to say that Tobirama completely regenerated faster than Hiruzen did.

 

[Disquiet]

In the meteor bit, Madara was regenerating from the time after the blast, which the manga showed all of the dust settling after. I think it's like chapter 560-562? Then it shows Naruto running from the outside of the blast zone, all the way to the center to find the Tsuchikage. Onoki was directly under it, and Naruto was part of the group that tried to escape the meteor. Madara had a good amount of time to regenerate.


No they confirmed Hiruzen's strategy. Naruto's inquiry was about Hiruzen specifically. The real one was probably out of the scene, you make it seen like such a thing has never been done. Let me throw a few at you.

Kakashi Hatake: The ninja who literally never gets into a fight without first testing out the opponents strategy.
Naruto Uzumaki: He uses clones to deduce his opponents weak points(Kakuzu fight).

Both use clones, while Kishi usually keeps the focus on the main Naruto, with Kakashi he doesn't. Sometimes we think Kakashi is hit with something, and 9/10 it's a clone. Example: Kakashi vs Deva Path, Kakashi vs Itachi. Both times we didn't even know they were clones, yet it turned out to be one. He used the jutsu off screen. Don't try to make it completely implausible, then in the same sentence try to say that Tobirama completely regenerated faster than Hiruzen did.

Let's not be ridiculous, you're making it seem like so much time has passed. Naruto wasn't out of the blast zone, 'Rubberman' as Naruto calls him saved Naruto by putting up a wall. That's why he said "Why did you save me, I'm just a clone?". The dust settling? Obito still had lots of smoke around him from the explosion.

This is invalid because Sasuke said 'they', to which Minato confirms. It wasn't Hiruzen alone. You're going against the manga for no reason.

I'm not trying to say anything. It's fact that was the real Tobirama.

 

[Multiply]

Let's not be ridiculous, you're making it seem like so much time has passed. Naruto wasn't out of the blast zone, 'Rubberman' as Naruto calls him saved Naruto by putting up a wall. That's why he said "Why did you save me, I'm just a clone?". The dust settling? Obito still had lots of smoke around him from the explosion.

This is invalid because Sasuke said 'they', to which Minato confirms. It wasn't Hiruzen alone. You're going against the manga for no reason.

I'm not trying to say anything. It's fact that was the real Tobirama.

1. The rubber was put up to block the incoming boulders that were flinging down after the collision. If you look, Gaara did the same thing. Dust clearing from Obito was so irrelevant. XD

2. Sasuke says 'they' because he's generalizing the Hokage. He's not even talking about Just Tobirama and Hiruzen, he's talking about all 4 of them.

3. There's absolutely no manga proof that says it is or isn't a clone. You and I are merely speculating which would be more logical, and based off past manga occurrences, we make our theory on what happened. It is my theory that the Tobirama the kamikaze'd was a clone. If it's not, it would go against the logic you admitted to earlier, and manga logic. "The more the edo is destroyed, the longer it takes to regenerate"

 

[Disquiet]

1. The rubber was put up to block the incoming boulders that were flinging down after the collision. If you look, Gaara did the same thing. Dust clearing from Obito was so irrelevant. XD

2. Sasuke says 'they' because he's generalizing the Hokage. He's not even talking about Just Tobirama and Hiruzen, he's talking about all 4 of them.

3. There's absolutely no manga proof that says it is or isn't a clone. You and I are merely speculating which would be more logical, and based off past manga occurrences, we make our theory on what happened. It is my theory that the Tobirama the kamikaze'd was a clone. If it's not, it would go against the logic you admitted to earlier, and manga logic. "The more the edo is destroyed, the longer it takes to regenerate"

Hence not being out of the 'blast zone'. You can't say he ran all the way to where Onoki was. Yep, Gaara protected himself from the blast as well. Most likely every shinobi died from the boulders that were flinging everywhere, as Onoki was under both boulders and didn't die. You brought up the dust clearing from the boulder impact...


....You're not making any sense.

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So now he's not talking about just Hiruzen? Answer me this. At which time then have they all purposely gotten close to the enemy? It's up to you to heed my advice, but don't waste your time. I just looked back from when the hokages first arrived, til now. They only attempted to get close when Obito merged with the juubi and became 'V1', it makes sense. They weren't dealing with something that simply shoots bijuudamas anymore, they had to learn it powers. I don't know why you keep trying to argue against the manga.


There's proof. You're just denying it. I'm not counting out the possibility that Hiruzen hasn't regenerated yet. As you yourself admitted, he likes to focus on certain characters. After all, since you unreasonably believe that it was a clone, you're suggesting that Kishi left him out for one whole manga chapter. If you're willing to believe that, I don't now why you just won't accept manga facts.

 

[Multiply]

Hence not being out of the 'blast zone'. You can't say he ran all the way to where Onoki was. Yep, Gaara protected himself from the blast as well. Most likely every shinobi died from the boulders that were flinging everywhere, as Onoki was under both boulders and didn't die. You brought up the dust clearing from the boulder impact...


....You're not making any sense.

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So now he's not talking about just Hiruzen? Answer me this. At which time then have they all purposely gotten close to the enemy? It's up to you to heed my advice, but don't waste your time. I just looked back from when the hokages first arrived, til now. They only attempted to get close when Obito merged with the juubi and became 'V1', it makes sense. They weren't dealing with something that simply shoots bijuudamas anymore, they had to learn it powers. I don't know why you keep trying to argue against the manga.


There's proof. You're just denying it. I'm not counting out the possibility that Hiruzen hasn't regenerated yet. As you yourself admitted, he likes to focus on certain characters. After all, since you unreasonably believe that it was a clone, you're suggesting that Kishi left him out for one whole manga chapter. If you're willing to believe that, I don't now why you just won't accept manga facts.

What are you talking about? You're assuming too much from my last post.

1. Naruto was not in the blast zone, however, he was still in range of all of the excess boulders firing down from the blast zone. Onoki was under the boulder when it landed, though since he made it extremely light, most of the damage came from the meteor on top of the first meteor. Thus why he survived. Also, I never said anything about Obito, I was talking about Madara.

2.When I said he was only talking about Hiruzen, he was aiming the conversation at what they had just seen, Hiruzen getting fodderized. Then Naruto questioned Minato why he didn't save him and Sasuke said they can afford to get close. He wasn't merely talking about Hiruzen and Tobirama, he was talking about all four of the Hokage... Sasuke was generalizing his answer around Hiruzen, but generalizing the Hokage at the same time. Should have been self explanatory.

3. I don't see why you won't accept manga facts. You can sit here and claim I'm not accepting manga facts, but I've already told you the predicament between our theories. Both of us have manga fact that makes our argument seem valid. I love the fact you're avoiding your own admittance that the more the edo is destroyed, the longer it should take to regenerate. Tobirama being entirely destroyed, should have taken at least 2x longer than Hiruzen. Hiruzen, however has not returned, and we also learn that if they're struck with the "liquid jinton", then they will not regenerate. All in the same chapter. The properties of the "liquid jinton" haven't been stated to change, nor have they appeared to change in the manga, yet you're still arguing it has. XD

This debate is going no where. I will not sway your opinion, nor will you mine. I think the best thing to do now is to wait until next week for the chapter to see what happens. :flowers

 

[Disquiet]

What are you talking about? You're assuming too much from my last post.

1. Naruto was not in the blast zone, however, he was still in range of all of the excess boulders firing down from the blast zone. Onoki was under the boulder when it landed, though since he made it extremely light, most of the damage came from the meteor on top of the first meteor. Thus why he survived. Also, I never said anything about Obito, I was talking about Madara.

2.When I said he was only talking about Hiruzen, he was aiming the conversation at what they had just seen, Hiruzen getting fodderized. Then Naruto questioned Minato why he didn't save him and Sasuke said they can afford to get close. He wasn't merely talking about Hiruzen and Tobirama, he was talking about all four of the Hokage... Sasuke was generalizing his answer around Hiruzen, but generalizing the Hokage at the same time. Should have been self explanatory.

3. I don't see why you won't accept manga facts. You can sit here and claim I'm not accepting manga facts, but I've already told you the predicament between our theories. Both of us have manga fact that makes our argument seem valid. I love the fact you're avoiding your own admittance that the more the edo is destroyed, the longer it should take to regenerate. Tobirama being entirely destroyed, should have taken at least 2x longer than Hiruzen. Hiruzen, however has not returned, and we also learn that if they're struck with the "liquid jinton", then they will not regenerate. All in the same chapter. The properties of the "liquid jinton" haven't been stated to change, nor have they appeared to change in the manga, yet you're still arguing it has. XD

This debate is going no where. I will not sway your opinion, nor will you mine. I think the best thing to do now is to wait until next week for the chapter to see what happens. :flowers

Yes he was. There's nothing showing him clear the blast zone. Madara seemed to be at a good distance and height, yet was sure he was going to get crushed. Unless of course, he somehow knew a boulder was going to come flying and destroy the both of them.

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Gaara seemed to be at around the same distance, if not even closer.

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In fact, the boulder was no longer even on top of Onoki.

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They were all within the 'blast zone'.

Exactly, you mentioned that the dust had to clear in the Madara incident, there was dust that had to clear in the Obito incident as well. Furthermore, if you're saying that all of this could have taken a lot of time (which is about 1-2 pages apart). Then you're saying the panels itself has no part in determining time. In which case, you're saying that you don't know how long it was between Tobirama and Sarutobi being destroyed. This mentality is what makes you look as if you want Hiruzen dead. It's illogical that you're comparing those two pages to a whole chapter (actually a chapter and a half) of Tobirama regenerating.

Um no. He didn't say 'they can afford to get close'. He said: They know they can't die, that's why they're purposely getting close to the enemy. What they had just seen is the hokages approach them and then; Tobirama, Hashirama, and Hiruzen getting fodderized. You simply make no sense. Your statement that it's a 'generalization' is contrary to what is actually said, you're drawing assumptions from a straightforward and self-explanatory statement.


What makes your argument valid? That you haven't seen Hiruzen? You can't argue that because Tobirama was also missing for one whole chapter (which I noticed you keep avoiding this argument). That he's been hit with the same black stuff that Tobirama has regenerated from?



What I said were assumptions drawn from Tobirama's statement. What I said was we can only speculate the time differences, since Tobirama made it fact that they don't always regenerate at the same pace.


Also, just noticed something else.

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His body, and those black orbs turns all ninutsu to 'nothing'.

Yet, if Tobirama was a clone, he should have poofed away once he was hit. Yet he didn't...

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There you go, the properties of that orb wasn't the same.



Well I know Hiruzen isn't dead, you made that thread stating it's a fact/you have proof. Now you're saying it's a theory. So yeah we can just end it here, I'm fine with that. =D It's been fun.