I wish kishi would plain out say either. "Hashirama was superior to hiruzen" or "hiruzen was superior to hashirama".
Eh I'd say they're =, so6p was a "god" , hashi was hyped to be a myth like him, and old man sarutobi was hyped as a "god of shinobi" soo they both have godly hype. >_>
I take Madaras word over oro and iruka combined. Personally I've been a fan of hashi since I saw his secret technique in naruto ultimate ninja 3(I KNOW Y'ALL KNOW WHAT IM TALKING ABOUT. Lol) So out of the hokages I do like him the best. You can imagine my delight in the recent story developments pertaining to him. In my opinion I think kishi did this on purpose. In a show with such a strong support cast these debates are innevitable. I don't see why people get so worked up about it. If you don't like the way the story goes then write your own. Whether we like/hate them aren't the plot twists what keep us interested? Be sensible. Let my man kishi do his thing.
TROLLING AT YOUR LEVEL? how sad, hiruzen is stronger than hashirama but he was powerless against the nine tails and got his ass kicked by orochimaru. makes sense.
I submit that the veneration of ancestors in the Naruto universe works something like it does in china or japan, in that any person who founds a martial arts school or plays an important political role is talked up by their students and compatriots. Compare how Morihei Ueshiba, Musashi, Mao and Wong Fei-Hong are viewed by the Chinese and Japanese. There probably is no textually consistent answer about this question because within the Naruto universe, the exact same type thing occurs; that is, there's no real consensus in the naruto universe among ninja about who the best shinobi is.
hashiramas strength was a fairy tail like the sage. in another translation it said his strength was a myth. hold on to that for a while.
now hiruzen was called god of shinobi and the strongest kage supposedly. lets get back to the hashirama hype saying his power was a myth like the sage. by definition a myth is greater than a god.
now lets get back to hashirama. his stength was a myth like the sage and does everyone believe in the sage. nope. whenever people heard about his strength they chose not to believe it and was basically like, thats a load of crap. theres no way for anyone to be that strong.
now since no one believed in hashiramas strength, they reasoned that hiruzen was the strongest because that was what seemed reasonable. not to mention that hashiramas hype and feats are infinitely superior to hiruzens.
Was about to flame you but i agree this hype that his fanboys use is starting to get on my nerves. Every strong character has gotten hype, it just so happens that he shares his nickname with the sage. We shouldnt get ahead of ourselves though because he clearly isnt in that league nor in the league of the current crop of ninja's.
I also believe that people dont understand why hiruzen is the strongest hokage and im thinking about making a thread. Basically this is why hiruzen is the strongest hokage. He was trained by both the 1st and second hokage who were leaders of the senju and that clan was said to be a clan with a 1000 skill (or some shit like that). If you notice hashirama had loads of scroll, scrolls that if you are elected hokage you are entitled to and i believe one of those scrolls is what naruto stole at the beginning of the series.
Now Hiruzen being a part of the sarutobi clan who were said to have natural talent in learning ninjutsu fast, its reasonable to say due to his old age, plus this natural ability he has mastered all the scrolls/ninjutsu's that existed in konoha. He has done something that not even his 2 former masters did in their life time. Further more if you look at the db he is the only person, yes only person to get a 5/5 for all 3 forms of ninja art and this speaks volumes. No wonder he was called the professor.
Now because he was the student of the 2 hokages he knows their techniques very well, so much so that if he was to fight them he would be able to counter and we saw this. The weakness of the Kokuangyo no Jutsu is that apart from the eye sight being taken away from you, all your othe senses are there and because hiruzen being the student of the 1st knew of this technique and its weakness he used his nose (sense of smell) to track hashirama;
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Secondly Enma is a good counter for mokuton and we have seen this. Hashirama used the same technique as edo madara when he first used the mokuton. The technique was Mokuton Hijutsu: Jukai Kotan. Enma not only made mokuton look like a twig it also protect hiruzen;
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Tobirama being a master of suiton jutsu. Hiruzen knew this and was able to counter his Suiton suiryudan, with doton doryuuheki;
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The reason why Hiruzen is the strongest hokage is NOT solely based on raw power but knowledge on his counterparts to defeat them in a fight. Its his knowledge on his teachers abilities that will allow him to defeat them in a fight thats why he is strongest amongst them. Note the word amongst them because i believe people dont understand this.
If we were to give hashirama and hiruzen 10 top shinobi's to fight in a 1 vs 1 situation, i believe hashirama would win majority of his fights and i cannot say the same for hiruzen. So whilst hiruzen is the strongest hokage due to his knowledge on his former teachers, if we were to take this a step further and place them both outside the criteria of hokage hashirama is stronger, but if were to revert this and place them in the criteria of hokage hiruzen is stronger
He tame tail beasts.
The bad ass wood element - got to be extremely bad ass!!!!!! coz all bad guys need is dna for the element ^^
his chakra his > that of the 3rd
the 1st beat madara so
if you guys say the 3rd is the strongest can he beat madara with the kyubi and the ems? the answer is no
person who live in the 3rd prime were still young or not born as yet to see the 1st prime
the 1st power is like a fairytale.
madara name created a war
the 3rd????? coz the leaf to get destroy
We all know Oro tends to be cocky and arrogent and ends up letting others get the best of him, he could have emded Hiruzens life mid-high difficulty if he would fight with more intent to kill instead of playing around.
Hiruzen "prime" is a bad argument because not all people lost their strength with age. Danzo, Oonoki and the Sannin are perfect examples of this.
You can think of what people say in the manga are fact, i have no problem with that, but we also go by what the character displays and what we see as well. So i can fully agree Hashirama is the strongest Hokage from the feats we have seen from him.
I dont base the whole argument off this mainly because just cuz we havnt seen it yet doesnt mean they are weak, but then again people like Minato, 2nd Hokage, 3rd Raikage, Muu, etc. all have had less screen time but have already shown far greater feats than Hiruzen has.
Basically if you were to base things off wat characters have shown and put Hiruzen up against the other hokages or kage he would lose to each one ( even tho i dont agree he is the weakest )
Another thing to ponder .. If Hiruzen was so strong, how come nobody cares or pays attention to him now that hes dead, but Hashirama and all his hype/dna/feats are still relevant to the manga
Sorry, I know there are a lot of threads about this, but people keep thinking that Hiruzen>Hashirama. It's annoying, so I must try to convince them otherwise.
Yes, I agree that Hiruzen was an amazing shinobi and worthy of being called Hokage. The fact that he's old and put up a hell of a fight against Oro and weaker versions of the first two Hokages are enough proof of how powerful he was. But in his fight against Shodaime and Nidaime:
Hashirama didn't use-
Wood Release: Advent of a World of Flowering Trees
Water release
Earth release
Monster strength(He's apparently as strong or stronger than Tsunade)
Tobirama didn't use-
Space-time technique
You Hiruzen fanboys take "God of Shinobi" too literal. Kisame is called "The tailless tailed beast", is he really a tailed beast though? No, you idiots. Plus, when Iruka called Hiruzen "God of Shinobi", that was like what, within the first 50 chapters? I'm sure Kishi regrets that.
I did read; hence me saying yes and reaffirming your points.My only critique is that you should not differentiate bewteen the databook and the manga, and no where in the manga can you actually read that Hashirama is overall stronger than Hiruzen, on the contrary.
Also, you won't change anyone's mind since the vast majority here ignore canon( which is why we see the same threads over and over again).
I said the databook>characters. Not databook>manga. In other words, you can't take what a character says as fact. Otherwise, according to Kakashi, the so6p doesn't really exist. So even though Iruka says Hiruzen was the strongest Hokage, that shouldn't be taken as complete proof since characters have said untrue things in the manga before. But we don't really need Iruka's input, since the official databook states Hiruzen as the strongest Hokage. hence databook>characters.
All I was really trying to do in this thread was state what I feel to be a logical reason why Hiruzen is the strongest Hokage, but calm down Hashi fans who can't accept this by pointing out that being the strongest really doesn't mean he can beat any of the Kage, meaning a Hiruzen vs Hashi battle may or may not turn out to be a win for Hiruzen. There aren't any flaws in the thread if you take the time to read and understand it
you see i have already post a thread of this that strategy=== key to winning. It means that there is no matter how much powerful your opponent is you just need a good strategy to win.
sorry dude i've never seen it, I'm still quite new and just started using NB frequently even though I became a member a while ago. and this is only my 2nd thread. so i dont know what has or hasnt been discussed yet
Did you just say... Hiruzen>itachi... No lol. I agree hiruzen is strong as **** but he has no counter to Susano, amer, totsuka, yata, or tysu. just no sir, no.
The problem with this thread is that it assumes Naruto has to make perfect sense and is free of contradictions.
Here's a great contradiction:
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Bee says genjutsu won't work on him because the 8-tails will bail him out but Kakashi says Tsukuyomi can't be stopped.
So it was stated that the 3rd was the strongest Hokage but Hiruzen wanted no part of Minato when Orochimaru tried to summon him. Then later it is stated the 1st was the strongest Hokage.
It's called poor writing.
Tsunade is running around with swords through her spine. WTF.
actually, it makes sense if you take into account what I said about the manga. Jiraiya already exlplained that you can get out of some genjutsu if you have a partner with you who can disrupt your chakra flow for you, and Tsunade broke Kakashi out of Tsukuyomi, so he probably meant it couldn't be stopped alone. Tsunade has her regeneration teqnique active right now, so it makes perfect sense as to why she can withstand susanoo swords and still be fighting.
Also, I said clearly that being the strongest doesn't mean you can beat any and everyone in battle, so that's probably why Hiruzen didn't want to fight Minato. Read and comprehend the thread please
dude stfu, hiruzen was not the strongest hokage or kage, he was a lame ass who thought mastering simple jutsu make u powerful and in the end got his face creamed by orochimaru, look at tsuchikage who is way older than him and is practically soloing madara since the other kages are so useless, hiruzen sucks and i hate when dumbasses liek u try to hype him, the best thing jiruzen had as hokage was his gay monkey emna, even when the fox attacked, what did that loser do? cry for minato
he was no god of shinobi and was definitely not the strongest, anyone who thinks other wise is just plain retarded as ****
Another troll. I was warned about this. I'm not the biggest Hiruzen fan myself, so I understand your point. But the manga said that he knew every jutsu that existed in the leaf at one point, so we know he knew more jutsu than the 1st and 2nd Hokage. What I am saying that if jutsu=power (which is a concept that Kishi stressed in part 1 remember?) then that is why Hiruzen is considered that strongest. but that doesnt mean he can beat all the other Kage. If you weren't such a troll you would realize you agree with me