1) KKG and secret clan tech's can't be mastered unless you have the same bloodline/natural associate of the specified clan, which is why KKG's are referred to as Bloodline limit techniques.
2) Hiruzen couldn't use Rasengan. It was minato's technique and is not listed as a jutsu in his aresenal. The manga has never given the slightest of implication that Hiruzen knew Rasengan.
3) Pertaining to DDS. Hiruzen knew and saw the hand seals for it when Minato used it against the kyuubi. It can only imply that Minato thought him the technique. When he use the technique he also attributed it to the fourth.
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4) Your misunderstanding Blaze's point. He's not referring to every jutsu that exists/existed in the leaf...he's referring to justu associated to konoha/konoha's jutsu that are passed down Ancestrally.
1.I never said hiruzen could master bloodline techniques in the village but he KNEW about them and how they worked..did you read my post at all?
2.Hiruzen couldn't use rasengan because he didn't use it? In the battle against the edo kages,he only used the appropriate jutsus neccessary to what they edo kages threw at him..a kid by the name konohamaru sarutobi used the rasengan..I bet he has more talent than hiruzen? Or maybe more access to the jutsu?..you are telling me just because minato never used kage bunshin or even ordinary replacement in battle then that means he couldn't use them? Going by your logic..
3.Ofcourse hiruzen learnt the deathgod seal from minato..the same way minato learnt of spacetime from the second and improved on it..the same way oro learnt edo tensei and perfected it..once you become a hokage,you have access to the secrets of a lot of jutsu passed down from previous generation to the next..hiruzen had the luxury of learning both from the past(his teachers) and the future(minato)..
4.I didn't misunderstand Blaze's point.I tried to elaborate on it..in the hidden mist village,jutsus like water dragon,mist tech are associated with the village.its one of their trademark jutsu..you don't need a kkg to use them..mei and zabuza could use them..in konoha,jutsus like kage bunshin,edo tensei,rasengan,opening of gates(even kakashi used the first gate when climbing a mountain with one hand),spacetime tech,deathgod seal,etc are all native/ancestral jutsus particular to the villag in whole..you don't need a blessed eye(like the uchihas) or body(like the senjus) or kekei genkei bloodline to master and use these techs..do you now understand?..
Erm no. Its you who do not understand. Jiraiya said having all 6 elemental chakra, he never said all 5. That is the difference. The 6th element is yin-yang release and that is beyond the normal person apart from rinnegan users or uchiha's with senju dna. Complete izanagi and banbatsu sozo are two yin yang technique's. That element is something that is exclusive to only a few, however the 5 nature elements consisting of katon, fuuton, raiton, doton and suiton are not exclusive
To an extent it does because you can call upon the right technique for the situation but also note what it was said which was he 'know's'. Meaning he knows how the techniques works and he demonstrated the knowledge on boh his jutsu's and the opponents.
For example with edo tensei, he knew that fuinjutsu is the way to get rid of the 2 hokage's. Being a technique of tobirama's and people like the gin/kin bros and mu knows about, its certain that hiruzen, his student will also know of this technique and he showed us enough knowledge.
Im not disagreeing with the statement, i just think a lot of those jutsu must have been terrible even useless, assuming he used what he thought was his best against oro, using mud river and that dragon flame jutsu all those jutsu mean nothing
Saying he knows EVERY jutsu inside the Hidden Leaf also sort of implies he knows some techniques which due to his clan heritage he cannot perform, such as Eight Trigrams Sixty Four Palms, Byakugan, ect...
Minato has FTG, sealing and other S/T techniques
Hashirama has Mokouton, control over Bijuu and high life force
Tobirama had excellence in Suiton, developed Edo Tensei and had other S/T techniques
So when you think about it, it's only right that Hiruzen has a distinctive trait of his own as a Hokage, and that's the fact that he was able to use all three types of jutsu to a high level (Nin, Gen and Tai) and the fact that he was able to use all jutsu exclusive to Konoha (not including specific genetically inherited clan techniques or clan secret jutsu). Thus the "Professor" title.
I know this is a contradiction but clans have justu specific to them, which means that their jutsu is also part of Konoha's. Kishi should have been more specific because one could interpret what Iruka said as Hiruzen being able to perform clan techniques as well, which is highly doubtful
1.I never said hiruzen could master bloodline techniques in the village but he KNEW about them and how they worked..did you read my post at all?
2.Hiruzen couldn't use rasengan because he didn't use it? In the battle against the edo kages,he only used the appropriate jutsus neccessary to what they edo kages threw at him..a kid by the name konohamaru sarutobi used the rasengan..I bet he has more talent than hiruzen? Or maybe more access to the jutsu?..you are telling me just because minato never used kage bunshin or even ordinary replacement in battle then that means he couldn't use them? Going by your logic..
3.Ofcourse hiruzen learnt the deathgod seal from minato..the same way minato learnt of spacetime from the second and improved on it..the same way oro learnt edo tensei and perfected it..once you become a hokage,you have access to the secrets of a lot of jutsu passed down from previous generation to the next..hiruzen had the luxury of learning both from the past(his teachers) and the future(minato)..
4.I didn't misunderstand Blaze's point.I tried to elaborate on it..in the hidden mist village,jutsus like water dragon,mist tech are associated with the village.its one of their trademark jutsu..you don't need a kkg to use them..mei and zabuza could use them..in konoha,jutsus like kage bunshin,edo tensei,rasengan,opening of gates(even kakashi used the first gate when climbing a mountain with one hand),spacetime tech,deathgod seal,etc are all native/ancestral jutsus particular to the villag in whole..you don't need a blessed eye(like the uchihas) or body(like the senjus) or kekei genkei bloodline to master and use these techs..do you now understand?..
I really doubt Hiruzen can use secret clan jutsu like Gentle Fist, Shadow Possession, Mind Transfer, Expansion Jutsu etc. The point of them being secret is so that only the clan may use it. Also when Oro mentioned that Hiruzen "was" considered the professor for knowing every jutsu in the Leaf he spoke in past tense. All we know is that he "was" called the professor.
Also he does not know Rasengan
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. This has been stated more then once in the manga.
Rasengan is a big deal? it's basic chakra manipulation..Sakura can easily learn it if she tried..... Not even arguing that hiruzen knows it as it really doesn't matter.. but you do know that kakashi knew it and it wasn't stated at all untill he showed naruto right? yet in part 1 tsunade was stating that only Minato and Jiraya can use that ability... point is, not everything character's say are true..
Idk about sensing ability, but he does have that little orb that can see anyone , anywhere in the village
Rasengan is an A rank jutsu. Extremely advanced spatial manipulation. I doubt very highly that Sakura could learn it let alone easily.
It is true that it doesn't matter whether Hiruzen could use it or not but I don't believe he learned it.
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Also this.
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Orochimaru says "you who were called the professor for knowing and being able to use all of the jutsu that exist in the leaf.
To me this means he used to know them all but maybe not anymore.
If so, it's quite meaningless a feat to know a multitude of jutsu in this manner. Even so, there are so many problems with such a claim within Naruto, that if you were to truly consider it holistically (for lack of a better term) it would once again become worthless.
All in all, Hiruzen is quite mediocre as a Kage, and there really isn't much that can catapult him further.
It all depends on how you define 'Konoha jutsu', because there's certainly no way he can perform all of them, regardless of whether it's ninjutsu, kinjutsu, fuinjutsu etc.
Still, I appreciate threads of this quality so, bravo.
the only jutsus he knows are kage bunshin, crappy earth and fire jutsus, summoning enma, and RDS. That's it. He sucks. Get over it. He can't do every konoha genjutsu because he doesn't have the elements or kekkei genkai. So does this mean he can do Wind Rasen Shuriken? Can he do the Tailed Beast bomb? Can he perform Susano?
I agree with everything bar the bit about the God of shinobi tag. you don't give someone the same tag as the Rikudou Sennin becuase htey've mastered all types of shinobi combat, otherwise Hashirama would have it also. Hiruzen was expressly stated as the strongest of the hokage and also the strongest of the 5 kage, plus his speed, strength and powerful chakra were said to be immensely powerful as well. I'm not sure what the databook says on the god of shinobi but i don't think it is what you're suggesting. the professor covers the shinobi prowess well enough.
in short, Hashirama's hype doesn't contradict Hiruzen's hype. the only thing is that part 1 scaling is way inferior to part 2 scaling and that hiruzen was the only hokage who had no impact on shippuden. obviously kishi believed that having him defeat the 2 senju and reinforce the strength of oro's et through kabuto would be enough... which doesnt seem to be the case.
edit:double post, but another pt i want to add is that he USED to know all the konoha jutsu (outside of the hyuuga and uchiha kg abilities). which means that he doesn't anymore, obviously there are stuff like rasengan, ftg and other newly developed techs like the sannin's which he doesnt know, plus (and i can't believe i have to say this),he obv doesn't possess techniques like RS developed after he died
also to those saying that having a massive arsenal is nothing, you're wrong. it is a very big deal if you have really large chakra reserves like hiruzen was said to have. combination techniques for one are insanely powerful, plus you have options for everything and can fight anyone on an even keel.
Im certain majority of Hashirama fans or those who favour him over Hiruzen will have their sword and shield in hand ready to do battle, with me in my current slumber id like to evade any rigorous discussion though im willing to answer questions.
Anyway as the title says Hiruzen knows and can perform all konoha jutsu's. Many including myself in the past have declined this hype by stating that means he knows hidden techniques and Kekkei Genkai however that is wrong, at least when you fully understand and digest that hype.
So does hiruzen know all and can perform all konoha jutsu's? Off course he can. Ill start from the very beginning.
Every village have ancient techniques developed by the village ancestors and these techniques are usually kept a secret, with only a few have access to these techniques. Ill give you two examples. Kakuzu stole the village's prized jutsu; 'Jiongu' [
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]. Another example is Deidora. He stole the village's jutsu which allows the wielder to infuse chakra into objects [
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I believe we can both call these abilities, techniques of their respective village, ill talk more on this later but back to Hiruzen. The whole reason i mentioned how these two akatsuki member's acquired their powers was firstly to note that there are techniques of their village but also such techniques are guarded with only a few having access to them. Which brings us back to the Mizuki situation because its very similar, as we know he corrupted naruto into stealing the Fuin no Sho which was located in the Hokage's residence. As we know its a scroll that contains many jutsu's which was forbidden by the Shodai Hokage [
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], this is where it starts.
The scroll was located in the hokage's residence which the Hiruzen has access to [
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]. Look again, at that page, naruto had a ton of scrolls to choose from and that was just one section of the room
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Lets go back, 13 years ago when the fox attacked [
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]. Look vividly behind Hiruzen and tell me what you see, for a better view there you go, does it not look like a scroll shelf behind him stacked with tons of scrolls.
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The very first technique that naruto was able to learn note was the kage bunshin [
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]. Now look at how thick the scroll is, naruto had barely opened it when he learnt the seals for the kage bunshin, if the scroll was undone surely the amount of techniques in this scroll alone, i believe its safe to say will be alot.
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So where do these scrolls come from. The answer is simple, from the clan with a thousand skills and we know this because its one of these scrolls that naruto stole. As we all know Konoha was formed by the Senju and Uchiha, but its the Senju who brought up this idea and its them who have shaped konoha into what it is. Anyway as i said before the senju were known as a clan with a thousand skills [
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As the DB says its made up of shinobi's with expertise in ninjutsu, taijutsu and genjutsu.
As we all know, Hashirama and Tobirama were the teachers of Hiruzen, having the leader and vice leader of a clan with such mastery of all 3 forms of ninja art means that you gain access to these abilities which they also left behind and its reflected in Hiruzen's databook scores. None, not the sannins nor akatsuki have max for Nin, tai and gen in the DB.
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What im trying to point out this whole this time is that Hiruzens hype for knowing all konoha jutsu's are jutsu's by the ancestors of konoha, those are konoha jutsu's. Ill give you other examples of possible konoha jutsu's.
Kurenai's genjutsu Magen: Jubaku Satsu [
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] This is what the DB has to say about it:
GENJUTSU; Magen: Jubaku Satsu (Genjutsu; Demonic Illusion: Woodbound Assassination)
User: Yuuhi Kurenai
Supplementary; Close range; Rank: B
Main text
One of the genjutsu that have been passed along since ancient times in Konoha. One is completely robbed of their mobility as they see the mirage of a tree coiling itself around them! Given that the subject remains conscious, this jutsu proves extremely efficient for information-gathering.
Databook 2, p 275
Ill quote the important bit "One of the genjutsu that have been passed along since ancient times in Konoha."
Another example, majority of people do not know that there are many forms of shunshin.
Body Flicker Technique (瞬身の術, Shunshin no Jutsu)
Ninjutsu, D-rank, Supplementary
Users: Gaara, Hatake Kakashi, et al
A movement technique with extreme speed like a gust of wind!!
Appearing along with the wind, disappearing like the wind: the ninja's instantaneous movement technique. This super fast movement is almost impossible to grasp with the naked eye. If seen by an ordinary person, it would seem as if the user has teleported... In reality, the user has vitalized his body with chakra and moved at super speeds. The amount of chakra used up differs depending on the distance and elevation of their stopping point in comparison to the starting point.
The cloud of sand dances in the wind
[picture of Gaara using the Body Flicker]
[picture of Haku using the Body Flicker]
[picture of Kakashi using the Body Flicker]
↑→Haku's and Kakashi's Body Flicker. Dancing leaves and disappearing in an instant like mist. There are many variations of the "Body Flicker" for the various villages and user. Gaara's use includes the "Sand Body Flicker"*. There are also the "Mist Body Flicker"**, "Water Body Flicker"***, and "Leaf Body Flicker"****, among many others.
*Sand Body Flicker (砂瞬身, Suna Shunshin)
**Mist Body Flicker" (霧瞬身, Kiri Shunshin)
***Water Body Flicker" (水瞬身, Mizu Shunshin)
****"Leaf Body Flicker" (木ノ葉瞬身, Konoha Shunshin)
Databook 1, p 197
This various shunshin's are not exclusive to the villages but again im trying to show you that there are technique that is derived from the village. We see kakashi using the konoha shunshin at the chunnin exam with sasuke [
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Hayate demonstrates the Mikazuki no Mai which again hints to being a konoha jutsu [
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,
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I believe and im certain techniques with konoha or 'leaf style' possible hints to being konoha jutsu which could possible mean that these other like:
Konoha Tsumuji Senpu
Konoha Reppu
Konoha Kaigansho
Konoha Senpu
In fact i believe Gai and Lee's Goken fighting style and the ability to use Hachimon were not developed by Gai, but rather these are techniques developed by the clan with a thousand hands, who had mastery of the 3 forms of ninja art, the senju. Im not saying Hiruzen can now use the Hachimon or Goken even though he commands a 5 for taijutsu,. im saying its very possible that he knows of such techniques and might be able to.
However Hiruzen's mastery of ninjutsu isn't just about the scrolls that was left behind. Hiruzen is also a ninjutsu developer. He created the Shuriken Kage Bunshin no Jutsu [
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] As the DB says:
Shuriken Shadow Clone Technique (手裏剣影分身の術, Shuriken Kage Bunshin no Jutsu)
A Ninjutsu, A-rank, Offensive, Short to mid-range (0-10m)
User: Sandaime Hokage
Multiplying the shuriken with the power of chakra
A formation of iron blades from which there's no escape!!
From one shuriken a thousand Shadow Clones¹ are brought forth, striking down on the enemy. A technique combining ninja tools with ninjutsu, Compared to normal Shadow Clones, Shadow Clones of material objects are said to be on a far higher level. There is no need for preparations beforehand, like stocking up on shuriken, yet since the Shadow Clones are real and not illusions, all the shadow blades that fly around are equally lethal. As a technique invented by the Third Hokage, its conceptualisation and efficiency can certainly be said to be unique to the "Professor".
Databook 1, p 196
Again ill quote the important part "As a technique invented by the Third Hokage, its conceptualisation and efficiency can certainly be said to be unique to the "Professor"."
Even in the latest DB, his hype for ninja is still echoed [
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So that ive shed light on this hype which is legit and his alias 'Professor', ill shed light on other hypes relating to this topic. Majority have tried to state that his hype 'Shinobi no Kami' or God of shinobi stems from his strength. This is partly true however this hype relates to his mastery of the 3 forms of ninja art and not because he commands power so great that he was given this hype. He is a god of the shinobi in the sense that in each category of the shinobi art his skill is very high. You can say Hiruzen's skill in these art on the level of Kakashi for ninjutsu, Kurenai for genjutsu and Gai for taijutsu. All 3 ninja's are the embodiment of skill in this art in konoha.
This hype shinobi no kami doesn't contradict Hashirama's fairytale hype. Hashirama's hype is to do with his mokuton ability which gave him the powers to control bijuu and and rewrite maps. These two hypes are different. One is for extreme versatility in all 3 forms of ninja art, the other is the power to control bijuu and change landscapes.
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