Hiruzen knows and can perform all Konoha Jutsu's

[Waltz]

I might be wrong, but it was nowhere implied, that Hiruzen can use all the techniques of Konoha but simply 'knows' them. The scrolls behind Hiruzen are a collection of all known Jutsu (at least of Konoha) for the only purpose of knowledge, any Hokage has access to. Konohas arsenal of Jutsu consists out of a bunch of varied techniques, started with the 5 basic elements, up to hidden Jutsu, Kekkei Genkai and Doujutsus, such as medical techniques and Kinjutsu. Orochimaru himself claimed, that it's impossible to learn all Jutsu in one life, making it impossible for Hiruzen to learn any technique of Konoha whose performances were documented in scrolls over generations, especially if we consider that Orochimarus life consisted out of studying any type of Jutsu in the long run while Hiruzens 'meaning of life' was defined differently.

There are a plenty of techniques Konoha has to offer from various sources:

• The five basic elements: Katon, Raiton, Doton, Fuuton, Suiton
• Hidden Jutsu: The techniques of the respective clans
• Kekkei Genkai: For example the Mokuton
• Doujutsu: The Kyuugas Byakugan and the Sharingan of the Uchiha back then
• Medical techniques
• Sealing techniques
• A plenty of other abilities, based on Nin- Tai- and Genjutsu

I'm sure, that the scrolls piling up in the Hokages room document all the techniques the village had and has to offer and is getting updated or extended whenever there appear new. Even if we take a look on the element Katon Hiruzen showed in performance, yet you could ask yourself whether Hiruzen could really use all Katon techniques the villagers knew over generations, to take an extreme example like Uchiha Madara, as a talented Uchiha whose clan was known for using powerful Katon techniques, the scale of Madaras techniques were on such a massive scale Hiruzens stamina couldn't even bear.

So this actually is a contradiction, on the one hand you say, that the scrolls document every Jutsu Konohas villagers were using up to now, yet it's just impossible for him to learn all of them, not only in consideration of the time it would need but also due to his predisposition. The mastery of all 5 elements itself would take Hiruzen already a large amount of time, let alone to learn all respective elementary techniques. Even excluding the Hidden Jutsu, Kekkei Genkai and Doujutus which were surely documented in the scrolls and in fact used by Konohas villagers, there would still be a too large bunch of techniques and abilities he would have to learn, apart of all 5 elements, medical techniques, all Tai- and Genjutsu techniques (the eight gates included, which were supposed to make the respective being to overwhelm even the Hokage) and the clans personal abilities (the Senju-clan alone was supposed to have members with thousands of Jutsu, such as the Uchiha-clan was supposed to be an extraordinary talented clan).

As talented as Hiruzen might be, no one would master such an amount of techniques in his life-time, considering his bloodline which doesn't even allow him to learn certain techniques and his stamina, which couldn't bear them.

In my opinion, it was more hype than actual feats done by Kishimoto, who took Hiruzen into the right light at the beginning of the series and made him out to be the strongest Hokage, while even Hashirama was made out to be inferior to Hiruzen in his old age while being in his best state and immortal (Hiruzens statement claiming to take out both the first and second Hokage for sure in his old state, just proves Kishimotos invalid given reputation).

Hiruzen surely knew every technique villagers of Konoha used, but he surely can't perform all of them, this is merely hype given him by Kishimoto as he is the Hokage who was supposed to have surpassed all Hokage. But actually, he's trash and his existence didn't have a meaning in Naruto Shippuuden, though one could say, that the 'god of Shinobi', known for the mastery of all arts and techniques of Konoha and the one who surpassed Hashirama, could have been kept in a far better light instead of being left in oblivion and put in the shadows. In Shippuuden, Minato however replaced Hiruzen to a certain degree when being supposed to be Konohas greatest Shinobi, who stopped the war, developed several high ranked techniques and knew sealing techniques.

I agree to what your saying and made that same point. no reponse was given?

Though i would like to add, I think blaze is implying that hiruzen knew all the jutsu associated with konoha/Konoha's Jutsu and not every jutsu that existed in the leaf...given that there is a difference between the two statements.

 

[Blaze Release]

I might be wrong, but it was nowhere implied, that Hiruzen can use all the techniques of Konoha but simply 'knows' them. The scrolls behind Hiruzen are a collection of all known Jutsu (at least of Konoha) for the only purpose of knowledge, any Hokage has access to. Konohas arsenal of Jutsu consists out of a bunch of varied techniques, started with the 5 basic elements, up to hidden Jutsu, Kekkei Genkai and Doujutsus, such as medical techniques and Kinjutsu. Orochimaru himself claimed, that it's impossible to learn all Jutsu in one life, making it impossible for Hiruzen to learn any technique of Konoha whose performances were documented in scrolls over generations, especially if we consider that Orochimarus life consisted out of studying any type of Jutsu in the long run while Hiruzens 'meaning of life' was defined differently.

There are a plenty of techniques Konoha has to offer from various sources:

• The five basic elements: Katon, Raiton, Doton, Fuuton, Suiton
• Hidden Jutsu: The techniques of the respective clans
• Kekkei Genkai: For example the Mokuton
• Doujutsu: The Kyuugas Byakugan and the Sharingan of the Uchiha back then
• Medical techniques
• Sealing techniques
• A plenty of other abilities, based on Nin- Tai- and Genjutsu

I'm sure, that the scrolls piling up in the Hokages room document all the techniques the village had and has to offer and is getting updated or extended whenever there appear new. Even if we take a look on the element Katon Hiruzen showed in performance, yet you could ask yourself whether Hiruzen could really use all Katon techniques the villagers knew over generations, to take an extreme example like Uchiha Madara, as a talented Uchiha whose clan was known for using powerful Katon techniques, the scale of Madaras techniques were on such a massive scale Hiruzens stamina couldn't even bear.

So this actually is a contradiction, on the one hand you say, that the scrolls document every Jutsu Konohas villagers were using up to now, yet it's just impossible for him to learn all of them, not only in consideration of the time it would need but also due to his predisposition. The mastery of all 5 elements itself would take Hiruzen already a large amount of time, let alone to learn all respective elementary techniques. Even excluding the Hidden Jutsu, Kekkei Genkai and Doujutus which were surely documented in the scrolls and in fact used by Konohas villagers, there would still be a too large bunch of techniques and abilities he would have to learn, apart of all 5 elements, medical techniques, all Tai- and Genjutsu techniques (the eight gates included, which were supposed to make the respective being to overwhelm even the Hokage) and the clans personal abilities (the Senju-clan alone was supposed to have members with thousands of Jutsu, such as the Uchiha-clan was supposed to be an extraordinary talented clan).

As talented as Hiruzen might be, no one would master such an amount of techniques in his life-time, considering his bloodline which doesn't even allow him to learn certain techniques and his stamina, which couldn't bear them.

In my opinion, it was more hype than actual feats done by Kishimoto, who took Hiruzen into the right light at the beginning of the series and made him out to be the strongest Hokage, while even Hashirama was made out to be inferior to Hiruzen in his old age while being in his best state and immortal (Hiruzens statement claiming to take out both the first and second Hokage for sure in his old state, just proves Kishimotos invalid given reputation).

Hiruzen surely knew every technique villagers of Konoha used, but he surely can't perform all of them, this is merely hype given him by Kishimoto as he is the Hokage who was supposed to have surpassed all Hokage. But actually, he's trash and his existence didn't have a meaning in Naruto Shippuuden, though one could say, that the 'god of Shinobi', known for the mastery of all arts and techniques of Konoha and the one who surpassed Hashirama, could have been kept in a far better light instead of being left in oblivion and put in the shadows. In Shippuuden, Minato however replaced Hiruzen to a certain degree when being supposed to be Konohas greatest Shinobi, who stopped the war, developed several high ranked techniques and knew sealing techniques.

You had to ruin the party didn't you. Reminds me of my old self. Anyway first of all this might not look good however this is a viz translation. It might not be clear however its still readable and as orochimaru said knew and could perform

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Next by konoha jutsu i speak of techniques passed on during the early stages of konoha, i do not recognise techniques such as medic ninjutsu or ninjutsu created by other in the village. By konoha jutsu i speak specifically of ancestry techniques. What orochimaru said is in valid, the techniques in these scrolls has to end, thats what you don't get. The scrolls could contain any certain number of technique's however it will surely end. whilst orochimaru's vision is far greater and would need more than a life time to achieve. Kakashi was able to achieve his rumoured 1000 jutsu's hype at such a young age, yes the sharingan helped however skill was also needed.

Again im talking about ancestor techniques being defined as konoha techniques and not latest techniques being developed as these technique are not konoha's jutsu but rather individual techniques. As for Hiruzen he was rumoured to have a rather large reserve, madara's katon is boosted by his powerful chakra that which the uchiha have. An example was Kurenai's genjutsu

 

[Waltz]

What orochimaru said is in valid, the techniques in these scrolls has to end, thats what you don't get. The scrolls could contain any certain number of technique's however it will surely end. whilst orochimaru's vision is far greater and would need more than a life time to achieve. Kakashi was able to achieve his rumoured 1000 jutsu's hype at such a young age , yes the sharingan helped however skill was also needed.

xd blaze, what are you saying?

You said This :

Spoiler

The very first technique that naruto was able to learn note was the kage bunshin. Now look at how thick the scroll is, naruto had barely opened it when he learn't the seals for the kage bunshin, if the scroll was undone surely the amount of techniques in this scroll alone, i believe its safe to say will be a lot.

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Now Hiruzen obviously couldn't have started learning all of Konoha's Jutsu before he became hokage because he wouldn't have access to those scroll's and the numerous forbidden jutsu. As you also said:

Spoiler

Every village have ancient techniques developed by the village ancestors and these techniques are usually kept a secret, with only a few have access to these techniques.

You elaborated on the share # of jutsu's in that one scroll naruto had. If i was to give a rough estimate of size based on the length Kage Bunshin required, there are around 100+ Jutsu in that single scroll.

Take a look at the picture you posted:

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The potential magnitude of jutsu contained in each scroll is un-comprehendable. There's no way Hiruzen could possibly learn and master all those jutsu in his 47 years of being hokage.

Kakashi faced and copied 1000+ different nin-jutsu between the time he saw obito die and the beginning of the series? I doubt. All hype can't be taken as fact. Also this is a poor example to elaborate your point. It's 100% easier to copy nin-utsu with the sharingan as opposed to learning it from scratch. You say skill is required, No. What is required is the ability to use the specific nature type of the jutsu being copied.

 

[Strict]

@Blaze Release, Medical techniques exist quite a long time and were used by Hashirama on a very high level, who, however founded the village. All the techniques the Senju and the other clans could use, were brought to Konoha together with the respective clans entry into Konoha. However at the beginning, the villagers and clans which took a place in Konoha at its foundation and later, should have learned their abilities somewhere else offside the village, the Jutsu of Konoha were brought into the village by the respective Shinobi who entered the village.

I think your explanation is a bit unclear, if you talk 'specifically of ancestry techniques'. What is included into the techniques of Konoha, Hiruzen should be able to use? Where are the border determining, which technique actually belongs to Konoha or is counted as a technique of Konohas ancestors? It's 'said' that Hiruzen could use any technique which exists in the leaf, thus including all the clans abilities, all 5 element natures and more.

Kakashis reputation of having an arsenal of 1000 techniques is also merely hype with the purpose to clarify that he learned a huge amount of techniques due to his ability to copy, this is a common exaggeration to clarify certain things. Even given the fact that Kakashi could do so, he still has the advantage of his Sharingan. He is not only talented, when it came to pass the exam and learn Jutsu like Raikiri at a young age, his Sharingan allowed him to copy the most techniques he fixed with a single glance.

 

[Blaze Release]

xd blaze, what are you saying?

You said This :

Spoiler

The very first technique that naruto was able to learn note was the kage bunshin. Now look at how thick the scroll is, naruto had barely opened it when he learn't the seals for the kage bunshin, if the scroll was undone surely the amount of techniques in this scroll alone, i believe its safe to say will be a lot.

You must be registered for see images

Now Hiruzen obviously couldn't have started learning all of Konoha's Jutsu before he became hokage because he wouldn't have access to those scroll's and the numerous forbidden jutsu. As you also said:

Spoiler

Every village have ancient techniques developed by the village ancestors and these techniques are usually kept a secret, with only a few have access to these techniques.

You elaborated on the share # of jutsu's in that one scroll naruto had. If i was to give a rough estimate of size based on the length Kage Bunshin required, there are around 200+ Jutsu in that single scroll.

Take a look at the picture you posted:

You must be registered for see images

The potential magnitude of jutsu contained in each scroll is un-comprehendable. There's no way Hiruzen could possibly learn and master all those jutsu in his 47 years of being hokage.

Kakashi faced and copied 1000+ different nin-jutsu between the time he saw obito die and the beginning of the series? I doubt. All hype can't be taken as fact. Also this is a poor example to elaborate your point. It's 100% easier to copy nin-utsu with the sharingan as opposed to learning it from scratch. You say skill is required, No. What is required is the ability to use the specific nature type of the jutsu being copied.

Its very possible that he could perform it all if you take his age into consideration. Naruto who was never good at the bunshin technique though it took him some time he was able to learn how to use the kage bunshin which is a superior version than the bunshin no jutsu. If naruto who had no talent for bunshin production was able to produce this technique is such a time frame, its possible that hiruzen who has been portrayed as a genius and if we take his age at 69 into consideration its very possible

 

[Your Creepy Stalker]

Until Edo Hiruzen uses everything, nobody belives this.

 

[Strict]

Its very possible that he could perform it all if you take his age into consideration. Naruto who was never good at the bunshin technique though it took him some time he was able to learn how to use the kage bunshin which is a superior version than the bunshin no jutsu. If naruto who had no talent for bunshin production was able to produce this technique is such a time frame, its possible that hiruzen who has been portrayed as a genius and if we take his age at 69 into consideration its very possible

So are you and Oowarj Hiruzen fans or do you want to give him his last credits before he turns completely into oblivion after his death? Isn't your first thread about Hiruzens abilities :b.

 

[Blaze Release]

@Blaze Release, Medical techniques exist quite a long time and were used by Hashirama on a very high level, who, however founded the village. All the techniques the Senju and the other clans could use, were brought to Konoha together with the respective clans entry into Konoha. However at the beginning, the villagers and clans which took a place in Konoha at its foundation and later, should have learned their abilities somewhere else offside the village, the Jutsu of Konoha were brought into the village by the respective Shinobi who entered the village.

Your think your explanation is a bit unclear, if you talk 'specifically of ancestry techniques'. What is included into the techniques of Konoha, Hiruzen should be able to use? Where are the border determining, which technique actually belongs to Konoha or is counted as a technique of Konohas ancestors? It's 'said' that Hiruzen could use any technique which exists in the leaf, thus including all the clans abilities, all 5 element natures and more.

Kakashis reputation of having an arsenal of 1000 techniques is also merely hype with the purpose to clarify that he learned a huge amount of techniques due to his ability to copy, this is a common exaggeration to clarify certain things. Even given the fact that Kakashi could do so, he still has the advantage of his Sharingan. He is not only talented, when it came to pass the exam and learn Jutsu like Raikiri at a young age, his Sharingan allowed him to copy the most techniques he fixed with a single glance.

Cannot remember this vividly but hashirama's medic ninjutsu was a skill that wasn't exclusive to the senju but rather to him and that is how the manga portrays his version of the Byakugō no Jutsu. That technique has been portrayed as unique to him and only him. You might say his hype is an exaggeration and possible however there is more weight in saying he did learn those scrolls.

So are you and Oowarj Hiruzen fans or do you want to give him his last credits before he turns completely into oblivion after his death? Isn't your first thread about Hiruzens abilities :b.

Hiruzen is already forgetten tbh and i can assure you im not a fan of his, if anything hashirama is in front of him when it comes to fav characters. I just needed to explain a few hypes

 

[badoera]

I do agree at the point that he might've known about every jutsu (which still is speculation)

I don't agree about him being able to use them all. there must be soooo many jutsu + his two elemental affinitys are earth + fire (correct me if im wrong) => so he basicly shouldn't be able to use lets say Chidori which is a A rank lightning move, or an S rank Fuuton move..

knowing is one thing, using them another..

Great thread to! awesome read!

 

[Waltz]

Its very possible that he could perform it all if you take his age into consideration. Naruto who was never good at the bunshin technique though it took him some time he was able to learn how to use the kage bunshin which is a superior version than the bunshin no jutsu. If naruto who had no talent for bunshin production was able to produce this technique is such a time frame, its possible that hiruzen who has been portrayed as a genius and if we take his age at 69 into consideration its very possible

A room with 500+ scroll's containing 100 jutsu each. thats 5000+ jutsu in addition to the time it takes to master all? I find that very hard to wrap my mind around...unless hiruzen didn't have a life. Where would he find this time when he has to deal with village affairs and train his up coming team of sannin? Also he was given this hype before he fought orochimaru being that he used "were". Personally, I think hiruzen was able to use a large verity of Konoha's jutsu but not every single jutsu (ancestry as you say), just as kakashi's hyped to have 1000+ Ninjutsu.

-edit-

It Think this hype was given to kakashi solely beacause he copied numerous ninjutsu between getting the sharingan and the beginning of the series, but 1000+ different ninjutsu? can't even be proven theoretically.

 

[7th Biggest OP Fan]

Not bad, not bad. Just a couple comments I have.

With the viz translation, it says he knew how to use every jutsu. This means every jutsu that isn't a kekkei genkai in the leaf village right? Does this mean he only knew about the jutsu he knows how to perform or did he actually know about every in the leaf?

I honestly think knowing about every jutsu is a better then knowing how to use every jutsu. If you master a few op jutsus of every element and rank as well as genjutsu and taijutsu, you could counter mostly anything. Knowing about every jutsu that can be performed I think has more of an advantage. If you know everything about a jutsu, hand signs, how it works, strengths and weakness, etc, it would put an enemy at a severe disadvantage if you possessed that knowledge. Lets say opponent x uses some wind technique. If you knew the hand signs of the attack opponent x is using, opponent y already knows what is going to happen and theoretically know what technique to use to counter it. This is how I see Hiruzen. It's almost like he would have a form or precog against his enemy. If Hiruzen knew about every recorded technique in the village, recorded could include KKG and clan only techniques, it would really put him above anyone in the village knowing their techniques.

I'm still on the fence if Hiruzen is stronger then the 1st, but I feel there is more evidence for it then against, specially after your thread.

 

[Sexy Steel]

it has been said that the sarutobi clan was know for there ability to learn jutsu's really fast or something like that so it is highly likely he did learn all jutsu

nice thread

 

[AnimusOra]

Good thread Ive been looking for one of yours for quite some time now.

 

[Lucidus]

well dont for this thread it was incredibly interesting .. the one thing that bothered me the most about hiruzens hype was his fans saying he could perform hidden arts such as the nara clans and aburame clans .. now that someone has sorted this mess out maybe fans might be a little more reasonable + rep

 

[ShaneEyyy]

People please read the thread before you post, it really helps i can assure you

That's the problem with Narutobase, people can be so ignorant when commenting when there counter or question is already answered in the thread.

 

[The Fourth Flash]

Um no, he doesnt know FTG, rasengan, any clan techniques. Im sure he knows ABOUT them and how to perform them, but he does not have the capability or knowledge to learn EVERY jutsu

/Thread

 

[oShux]

So hiruzen can use susanoo, kamui, izanagi, izanami, rasengan, FTG, and edo tensai? :sy:

 

[Ace of the fire fist]

I actually thought it was impossible to learn all 5 elements?

 

[Talal]

Awesome. What do you think of the possibility of him knowing how to use all 5 types of releases?

I mean Kakashi can use 3 since he was in his mid to late 20. I feel like the possibility of Hiruzen using all 5 isn't that far-fetched.

 

[KingHashirama]

When he has mokuton or any other KKG or hiden techs.. please say that claim is true.

I actually thought it was impossible to learn all 5 elements?

yea you need the rinnegan for that.