Hiruzen is the strongest Hokage

[KidGamer65]

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NODDY HIRUZEN BIGGEST FANBOY

You retard, how is he a Hiruzen fanboy when he thinks Hashirama is stronger?

 

[OnPoint]

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NODDY HIRUZEN BIGGEST FANBOY

You are clearly lacking brain cells.

 

[zesto]

You retard, how is he a Hiruzen fanboy when he thinks Hashirama is stronger?

retard is calling someone retarded :rofl: oops we make mistakes soooooory noody noddy not Lol

 

[Disquiet]

"only hashirama is able to defeat me" << words straight from madara's mouth who lived through hiruzens rein.... madara was one of the people to actually witness hashirama's powers and its considered a fairytail because the people who saw it pass it down to the younger generations and because it is so hard to believe they just consider it a fairytail...

Hashirama doesn't even know of Hiruzen that we know of, so that statement is pointless. Yes, even Madara and those of his time didn't consider it "God-tier".

Implying people saw Hiruzen's God-like power and believed it, yet heard of Hashirama's 'weaker' (in comparison) strength and disbelieved it, is creating a clear logical fallacy. It does not follow that someone can disregard a feat lesser than what they've already experienced or come across.

But the ones who did see it, dubbed him what?

Gaara's comment in reference to Madara's meteor: Is that...the power of a God?


People who only heard of his powered called him that. Within the same context his "fairy tale" powers are mention, Kabuto had just created a forest. But Kishi doesn't make it as dramatic.

Spoiler

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This "fairy tale" into reality.


Yet when Madara dropped a meteor, it covered the skies and it was felt all the way back to headquarters and was considered God-like by Gaara.

Just because some people who didn't think Hashirama actually did these things (Creating a forest or things alike) doesn't mean his power is even comparable to Nagato's, well they may be but I'm trying to get you to understand.

 

[LegendaryAce]

"There aren't ninjas on the same level as Hashirama around anymore..." ~ Kabuto Yakushi

Words right out of kabuto's mouth.. right after he said the whole unbelivable strength thing..

People seem to think Hashirama was the utmost strongest ninja to have ever existed... yet kabuto stated there have been ninjas who can match his strength...
Obviously excluding himself and tobi

Being on someone's level doesn't mean one isn't stronger than the other .. One can be known as the strongest but can be beat by second strongest or third ..that logic works for and against hashirama ofcourse but he should be strongest by both his hype and feats (his vs hiruzen anyway)

There could be a few people on his level like
Tobirama
Izuna
Minato - he gets underrated but he was good at his thing
And maybe a few people who were dead when kabuto said that and ofcourse hiruzen would be one of them understandable but not number 1

And if you think about it he might have not counted the Edos as people alive since they were dead and resurrected by him he might have said that counting a few Edos as dead people like : nagato , madara ect

 

[KidGamer65]

retard is calling someone retarded :rofl: oops we make mistakes soooooory noody noddy not Lol

What a troll...

 

[OnPoint]

But the ones who did see it, dubbed him what?

Gaara's comment in reference to Madara's meteor: Is that...the power of a God?


People who only heard of his powered called him that. Within the same context his "fairy tale" powers are mention, Kabuto had just created a forest. But Kishi doesn't make it as dramatic.

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

This "fairy tale" into reality.


Yet when Madara dropped a meteor, it covered the skies and it was felt all the way back to headquarters and was considered God-like by Gaara.

Just because some people who didn't think Hashirama actually did these things (Creating a forest or things alike) doesn't mean his power is even comparable to Nagato's, well they may be but I'm trying to get you to understand.

I don't know if you're fully grasping what has been implied by the manga. In the official VIZ scan, it was stated that many people doubted Shodai's power could ever be as strong as the legends that spoke of him foretold.

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His greatest feat, overcoming the pinnacle of the Uchiha clan, EMS Madara, along with the Perfect Susano'o and the Kyūbi, was completely without witness. No-one saw first hand how powerful the 1st Hokage really was. In order to understand the immensity of his strength, one would need to fully understand the magnitude of Perfect Susano'o's power; and yet, none of the five Kages could even comprehend the power that stood before them. The leaders of each hidden village, expected to be in possession of a wealth of historical knowledge, could not believe their eyes. Tsunade, a direct descendant of the first, was left perplexed as to how her grandfather could've fought a guy like Madara [

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]. The stories were written off. The feats disregarded as legends. Tobi spoke of the Rikudō's exploits at the Kage summit and yet Darui could not believe that such a thing was possible. To him, it was almost laughable. If Hiruzen truly was the God of shinobi and the strongest Hokage ever to grace Konoha, there would have been no reason for the masses to doubt Hashirama's strength. Thus, it follows that this doubted strength was beyond anything the people of Konoha could accept as actual truth. Anything they'd ever experienced. Sarutobi could not have been superior to Shodai in strength if Kabuto's statement is valid.

 

[Strict]

"There aren't ninjas on the same level as Hashirama around anymore..." ~ Kabuto Yakushi

Words right out of kabuto's mouth.. right after he said the whole unbelivable strength thing..

People seem to think Hashirama was the utmost strongest ninja to have ever existed... yet kabuto stated there have been ninjas who can match his strength...
Obviously excluding himself and tobi

You are truly clinging at this statement of Kabuto, aren't you? It's not about to take anything literally but further to interpret correctly. When representing Hashiramas strength as a fairy tale no one can match "today", he rather implies that no one was able to match his power after he died. You may can't understand that hype is reaching its climax when being brought in a context with Hashirama. His power is great enough to influence the whole story and letting all the others, whether Orochimaru or Madara striving for it, in order to touch this amazing strength. Even presently Madara can't stop his euphoria when taking Hashiramas name in the mouth, he, who fought Hashirama with his perfect Susanoo and Kurama lost and claimed him to be far above the level of the 5 current Kage, which, on the other hand are representing the head of the 5 strongest villages. So please tell me, where concretely was implied, that there were Shinobi even more powerful during, or after his lifetime? This is nothing than your own, subjective opinion.

Implying people saw Hiruzen's God-like power and believed it, yet heard of Hashirama's 'weaker' (in comparison) strength and disbelieved it, is creating a clear logical fallacy. It does not follow that someone can disregard a feat lesser than what they've already experienced or come across.

It's ok Noddy, tomorrow another Hiruzen thread will be created where we will waste our time.

 

[RockLee the Green Beast]

He's the strongest yet Minato put his old ass into retirement? The **** outta here.

 

[Owarij]

You are truly clinging at this statement of Kabuto, aren't you? It's not about to take anything literally but further to interpret correctly. When representing Hashiramas strength as a fairy tale no one can match "today", he rather implies that no one was able to match his power after he died. You may can't understand that hype is reaching its climax when being brought in a context with Hashirama. His power is great enough to influence the whole story and letting all the others, whether Orochimaru or Madara striving for it, in order to touch this amazing strength. Even presently Madara can't stop his euphoria when taking Hashiramas name in the mouth, he, who fought Hashirama with his perfect Susanoo and Kurama lost and claimed him to be far above the level of the 5 current Kage, which, on the other hand are representing the head of the 5 strongest villages. So please tell me, where concretely was implied, that there were Shinobi even more powerful during, or after his lifetime? This is nothing than your own, subjective opinion.



It's ok Noddy, tomorrow another Hiruzen thread will be created where we will waste our time.

There are two different scans of this saying two entirely different things... The viz scan clearly states that noone currently alive can match Hashirama.....It does not make any hint to there ever being ninjas in the past who could match him...

The other scan, Found typically on different manga sites in its various forms, States that there aren't any ninjas who can match hashirama around anymore... This translation of the scan openly shows us that there have been people who were on his "level"
What this level is , One would assume is the very same strength hashirama goes on to talk about

Madara is arrogant, he looks down on people weaker than him but he holds respect for the one man who bested him in combat...This respect has carried on into his edo rebirth... though now he is significantly stronger than he was in his ems state... With his newfound strength he "easily" demolishes the 5 kages ...but he see's them as plain losers... losers who can't hold a candle to hashirama....

People on the base seem to take Madara's words and praise to mean that Hashirama > Edo madara , Or Hashirama > all 5 of the kages at once
I don't believe that, what so ever..

 

[Disquiet]

I don't know if you're fully grasping what has been implied by the manga. In the official VIZ scan, it was stated that many people doubted Shodai's power could ever be as strong as the legends that spoke of him foretold.

You must be registered for see images

His greatest feat, overcoming the pinnacle of the Uchiha clan, EMS Madara, along with the Perfect Susano'o and the Kyūbi, was completely without witness. No-one saw first hand how powerful the 1st Hokage really was. In order to understand the immensity of his strength, one would need to fully understand the magnitude of Perfect Susano'o's power; and yet, none of the five Kages could even comprehend the power that stood before them. The leaders of each hidden village, expected to be in possession of a wealth of historical knowledge, could not believe their eyes. Tsunade, a direct descendant of the first, was left perplexed as to how her grandfather could've fought a guy like Madara [

You must be registered for see links

]. The stories were written off. The feats disregarded as legends. Tobi spoke of the Rikudō's exploits at the Kage summit and yet Darui could not believe that such a thing was possible. To him, it was almost laughable. If Hiruzen truly was the God of shinobi and the strongest Hokage ever to grace Konoha, there would have been no reason for the masses to doubt Hashirama's strength. Thus, it follows that this doubted strength was beyond anything the people of Konoha could accept as actual truth. Anything they'd ever experienced. Sarutobi could not have been superior to Shodai in strength if Kabuto's statement is valid.

Hmmm, I'm going to quote what I think is most important.


"If Hiruzen was truly the God of Shinobi and the greatest hokage ever to grace Konoha, there would have been no reason to doubt Hashirama's strength."


Now, let me give an example (Will try to include most of your post in this example). It may seem kind of silly but it holds a valid point. Let's just say there was once this beautiful fairy, and rumors of her beauty was absolutelyunbelievable, I mean just damn! The thing is, no one ever got a chance to see this beauty. Now along came another fairy, everyone witnessed this fairy's beauty, and because she was so beautiful they said it was God-like. History goes on, but because no one ever saw the beauty of the first fairy, it's still considered a fairy tail.


Now let's just say another fairy that lived during the first fairy's era came about, this fairy was the only to rival the beauty of its equal, but it doesn't necessarily have that God-like beauty. Now, when spectators stare at this fairy, you're saying that they wouldn't be amazed because there's already a greater beauty?



One last thing to add, the masses didn't believe because they never saw it. A fairy tale will remain a fairy tale until it is seen.



I'm trying to show you the flaw in that logic. It doesn't matter that one may surpass these fairy tails powers, they will still be considered a fairy tale because they never believed him to be as strong as the legends say. I could see your point if Hiruzen was before Hashirama, because then it would be like he was named God of shinobi and people saw this, but then came a man after him and his powers wasn't even believed to be real. That I would understand., but not the other way around....

 

[kellzfresh]

Nice try...
Here is the real list

1. Hashirama- wood dragon, healing, chakra monster, genjutsu, seal scrolls, tsunade strength, flower world, changes maps with jutsu, tailed beasts in possesion, 100 wood clones(hiruzen could barely do 2)

2. Minato - seals, intelligence, ST barrier, food cart destroyer, FTG nuff said, gamabunta.

3. Hiruzen- RD seal, genjutsu, ninjutsu master, monkey king enma.

4. Tobirama- space time, edo tensei, water style

5. Tsunade- strength, chakra, summoning, healer

 

[-Logic-]

"The third was 'said' to be the Strongest Hokage."

Said.

 

[-Logic-]

Until this analogy is debunked, i've nothing more to add to this topic.

Took a while.

 

[zinescience]

no, minato

 

[Strict]

@Owarij

Yet you're misinterpreting the even scans. It was nowhere the talk about matching Hashiramas power, it was the talk about Hashiramas level. Saying that there aren't Ninja on Hashiramas level anymore doesn't imply in any respect that there were during his lifetime or after, it rather implies that Hashiramas level wasn't matched after he left this world. Hashirama is the center of all hypes going into favor of someones strength. Who was supposed to be the most powerful Shinobi in the world, carrying a name that is already representing power? This man is Madara, a man supposed to me an invincible immortal who was praised to be the most powerful Shinobi of the world [

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][

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], Madara was a legend whose name alone penetrated into every corner. There is no doubt, based on peoples believes, there was no Shinobi beside worthy to care such a reputation. Madaras arrogance is justified indeed, because the power which was brought with him was truly something beyond all imaginations. And yet Hashirama was shown to be the man, able to stop even this unbelievable might, a man who fought Madaras whole power and triumphed though latter made use of the most powerful being which existed at this time. There is no doubt, that Hashirama blew up all imaginations of strength when being able to beat Madara and collecting all Biju in existence. The strongest beings in the narutoverse people are fearing, were all collected by Hashirama and spread across the countries like weapons for balancing out their power. There's a reason to believe in him as a fairy tale, because no one could really touch this might. There is no one whose reputation of power exceeds Madara Uchihas and the one who was even capable to stop him, just couldn't find a place among the peoples imaginations of strength. Your points are invalid. At some point you should realize what role has been given to him. I'm by the way nowhere implying that Hashirama could match the current Madara.

 

[OnPoint]

Hmmm, I'm going to quote what I think is most important.


"If Hiruzen was truly the God of Shinobi and the greatest hokage ever to grace Konoha, there would have been no reason to doubt Hashirama's strength."

Now, let me give an example (Will try to include most of your post in this example). It may seem kind of silly but it holds a valid point. Let's just say there was once this beautiful fairy, and rumors of her beauty was absolutelyunbelievable, I mean just damn! The thing is, no one ever got a chance to see this beauty. Now along came another fairy, everyone witnessed this fairy's beauty, and because she was so beautiful they said it was God-like. History goes on, but because no one ever saw the beauty of the first fairy, it's still considered a fairy tail.

Now let's just say another fairy that lived during the first fairy's era came about, this fairy was the only to rival the beauty of its equal, but it doesn't necessarily have that God-like beauty. Now, when spectators stare at this fairy, you're saying that they wouldn't be amazed because there's already a greater beauty?

One last thing to add, the masses didn't believe because they never saw it. A fairy tale will remain a fairy tale until it is seen.

Your analogy only implies that people will only believe what they see - yet this is far from the truth. There are many instances in the manga where people have forwarded information that they did not witness first hand. People may believe that this 'newer fairy' is more beautiful, but only when they doubt the beauty of the one they had not seen - not doubting the beauty of the first fairy would mean they're picturing something beyond anything they'd even seen or comprehended to be true. Yeah, you can believe that this latest fairy is the best looking but only when you're not taking into account of the 'legendary one', which parallels the Hashirama/Hiruzen scenario exactly.

They did not believe it because it seemed so absurd that someone could best EMS Madara (who's name alone could ignite a war) and the Kyūbi (who could supposedly crumble mountains and cause Tsunamis merely by swinging its tail [

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]). It's about the level of the feat. If Hiruzen possesses God tier feats then there's no reason to doubt anything below that. No reason whatsoever. If you heard that someone ran 100m in 11 seconds you would not need to see it to believe it, because it's not that impressive. Lower that to 8 seconds and all of a sudden it becomes a legendary, myth-like feat that you can't accept. Then the person who timed the raced (Madara) steps forward and confirms everything.

 

[Owarij]

@Owarij

Yet you're misinterpreting the even scans. It was nowhere the talk about matching Hashiramas power, it was the talk about Hashiramas level. Saying that there aren't Ninja on Hashiramas level anymore doesn't imply in any respect that there were during his lifetime or after, it rather implies that Hashiramas level wasn't matched after he left this world. Hashirama is the center of all hypes going into favor of someones strength. Who was supposed to be the most powerful Shinobi in the world, carrying a name that is already representing power? This man is Madara, a man supposed to me an invincible immortal who was praised to be the most powerful Shinobi of the world [

You must be registered for see links

][

You must be registered for see links

], Madara was a legend whose name alone penetrated into every corner. There is no doubt, based on peoples believes, there was no Shinobi beside worthy to care such a reputation. Madaras arrogance is justified indeed, because the power which was brought with him was truly something beyond all imaginations. And yet Hashirama was shown to be the man, able to stop even this unbelievable might, a man who fought Madaras whole power and triumphed though latter made use of the most powerful being which existed at this time. There is no doubt, that Hashirama blew up all imaginations of strength when being able to beat Madara and collecting all Biju in existence. The strongest beings in the narutoverse people are fearing, were all collected by Hashirama and spread across the countries like weapons for balancing out their power. There's a reason to believe in him as a fairy tale, because no one could really touch this might. There is no one whose reputation of power exceeds Madara Uchihas and the one who was even capable to stop him, just couldn't find a place among the peoples imaginations of strength. Your points are invalid. At some point you should realize what role has been given to him. I'm by the way nowhere implying that Hashirama could match the current Madara.

I just want to get a few things straight


You're interpreting Kabuto's words -

"There aren't any ninjas on hashirama's level around anymore"

To mean that After the death of Hashirama, there was no ninja that could match Hashirama's level

Right? , If that's what you're saying , i'll have my response

 

[Disquiet]

Your analogy only implies that people will only believe what they see - yet this is far from the truth. There are many instances in the manga where people have forwarded information that they did not witness first hand. People may believe that this 'newer fairy' is more beautiful, but only when they doubt the beauty of the one they had not seen - not doubting the beauty of the first fairy would mean they're picturing something beyond anything they'd even seen or comprehended to be true. Yeah, you can believe that this latest fairy is the best looking but only when you're not taking into account of the 'legendary one', which parallels the Hashirama/Hiruzen scenario exactly.

They did not believe it because it seemed so absurd that someone could best EMS Madara (who's name alone could ignite a war) and the Kyūbi (who could supposedly crumble mountains and cause Tsunamis merely by swinging its tail [

You must be registered for see links

]). It's about the level of the feat. If Hiruzen possesses God tier feats then there's no reason to doubt anything below that. No reason whatsoever. If you heard that someone ran 100m in 11 seconds you would not need to see it to believe it, because it's not that impressive. Lower that to 8 seconds and all of a sudden it becomes a legendary, myth-like feat that you can't accept. Then the person who timed the raced (Madara) steps forward and confirms everything.

Let me get to the core of your argument here.


That whole line of Kabuto doesn't even speak for everyone. Meaning there's also those that believe he could do such things. I doubt if the whole ninja world experienced Sarutobi's strength either, which would create this discussion we are debating now. "Many" does not even equal "most", which means the majority can believe it...

 

[iEspada]

There's nothing what can be said to hiruzens favor because only idiots believed in his powers. kishimoto made it clear that hashirama and madara were the most powerful shinobis in existence who couldnt be matched by the next generations. madaras only name let everyone fear and ignites wars and hashirama was a fairy tale that kabuto put in one sentence with the six paths hermit. hiruzen fanboys should show me a scan where some one was said to be greater than madara and hashirama and madara in terms of strength. theres none cause hiruzn is shit. he has nothing that is worth to talk about only his bunch of ninjutsu. no kekkei genkei or something else which made him stronger. in this world those who dont have a kekkei genkei or biju power are shit. sharingan, rinnegan, mokuton, jinton. hiruzen is a bitch.