Hiashi vs SM Naruto

[Lord Tywin]

Apex is still holding on to what he deems as an impressive speed feat from Hiashi.

 

[Apêx1]

Then I'll give you the first point, but the rest is wrong.

1. Extreme speed? I don't know what Manga you've been reading but V2 Juubi and up's attacks are nowhere near a level of speed where you'd call them extreme. Cloaked fodder being fast enough to easily react to them is proof of that. There is literally nothing supporting Naruto getting killed by air palm.

I didn't mean it like that. I meant for something to move so fast despite tremendous mass would generate huge momentum. Hiashi's Vacuum Palm overcame that. It's the difference between a Shinra Tensei pushing back the Kyuubi while moving at full speed and pushing back the Kyuubi while he's stationary, and yes; it's a huge difference. Regardless, cloak grants a massive boost. Naruto went from fodder in early part 2 to shitting on Orochimaru with the v1 single tailed cloak [

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]. And Naruto in early part 2 was far weaker then the guys who received the cloak during the War Arc, so fodders wouldn't really be a good description. So them reacting on top of their own reaction speed from 50 meters isn't very surprising even if it has huge speed; and since it's the Juubi, it's implicative that its tail is moving real fast. And again, there's absolutely nothing which would put SM Naruto's durability at a level where he can tank such an attack.The Juubi was literally flicking away Bijuu Dama's [

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] with a single finger. Also, we've seen the 9 Bijuu's use their tails as the main offensive option against Madara's SM enhanced v3 Susano [

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], which did indeed destroy it and made Madara lose an arm while he was it (with SM durability). The Juubi's tail should be stronger and it's not even up against a Senjutsu v3 Susano, it's up against a regular SM user who will die on contact from its tail, let alone a jutsu that shat on it. The Juubi as already been physically portrayed to be far above the Bijuu when he blitzed the Hachibi and Kyuubi and sent them flying and then Kakashi stated he couldn't even see its speed. His tail>his punch since tails are the strongest (Bijuu resorted to it vs v3 Susano, wouldn't if it wasn't stronger then their punch). Juubi>>>>>>>>>>>SM Naruto<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<Hiashi Air Palm.

Juubi's Mokuton Sashiki rain was moving faster than it's own physical attacks, as shown by Neji only being fast enough to take a hit instead of actually doing something about it like he did to to the tail. Some fodders were dodging and reacting, the characters with names who are still weak as hell were reacting too. Juubi's physical attacks are not fast. They only get slower as it gets larger.

I don't really understand what you are trying to convey here?

2. Lol stop. Naruto can't dodge because it's "too large"? Not even sure if serious with this nonsense. It's the same size as the Juubi's hand, and the Juubi's hand is only a little bigger than Bijuu. And the distance is 40m. And Naruto knows all about it. Not even close to being too large nor is Naruto getting hit.

Let's not forget that it's only speed feat is intercepting the Juubi's attack, and no, that doesn't make it faster or on par in speed.

Knowing about it doesn't mean anything, it being 40 meters doesn't mean anything. Hiashi uses it and there's nothing SM Naruto can do about it because there's no way he can dodge something so large with his Pain Arc speed feats. And what? The Juubi's hand is far, far larger then a Bijuu. These are Bijuu sized beings [

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] and the Gate on the left dwarfs them completely. We're only seeing 1/4th of that gate and it already completely dwarfs them, please don't try to make this comparison because slightly is not supposed to be the word you are using here. It's like 20 times the size of a Bijuu, and Bijuu's have been calced at huge sizes in the past. You can't even see the person on top of the Summon in these pages, so saying Naruto can dodge this absolutely gigantic attack is completely fallacious.

If it could deflect the Juubi's tail then the only way for it to do so is through speed. All Air Palms would be the same barring the speed. It's merely compressed air, the faster it goes and the larger it is, the more power it will have. The difference is force per unit area. Neji's air palm barely pushed away 30% Kisame 3 meters back. Hiashi's Air Palm overpowered the Juubi's Tail. There's clearly a massive speed behind the Vacuum Air Palm for it to do so. If it was moving at a similar speed of the one Neji used then the Juubi would ignore it since it could move an 80kg person (the guy acting like 30% Kisame) 3 meters away. Size would be irrelevant since it doesn't have 1/1000th of the momentum to move or affect something the size of the Juubi Tail. Yet his Vaccum Air Palm overpowered it while it was moving at high speeds.

Apex is still holding on to what he deems as an impressive speed feat from Hiashi.

The one I used to shit on you in that debate? &autoplay=1[/YOUTUBE

 

[Lord Tywin]

The one I used to shit on you in that debate? &autoplay=1[/YOUTUBE

You're right, it was my fault that I didn't address it properly

 

[KidGamer65]

I didn't mean it like that. I meant for something to move so fast despite tremendous mass would generate huge momentum. Hiashi's Vacuum Palm overcame that. It's the difference between a Shinra Tensei pushing back the Kyuubi while moving at full speed and pushing back the Kyuubi while he's stationary, and yes; it's a huge difference. Regardless, cloak grants a massive boost. Naruto went from fodder in early part 2 to shitting on Orochimaru with the v1 single tailed cloak [

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]. And Naruto in early part 2 was far weaker then the guys who received the cloak during the War Arc, so fodders wouldn't really be a good description. So them reacting on top of their own reaction speed from 50 meters isn't very surprising even if it has huge speed; and since it's the Juubi, it's implicative that its tail is moving real fast. And again, there's absolutely nothing which would put SM Naruto's durability at a level where he can tank such an attack.The Juubi was literally flicking away Bijuu Dama's [

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] with a single finger. Also, we've seen the 9 Bijuu's use their tails as the main offensive option against Madara's SM enhanced v3 Susano [

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], which did indeed destroy it and made Madara lose an arm while he was it (with SM durability). The Juubi's tail should be stronger and it's not even up against a Senjutsu v3 Susano, it's up against a regular SM user who will die on contact from its tail, let alone a jutsu that shat on it. The Juubi as already been physically portrayed to be far above the Bijuu when he blitzed the Hachibi and Kyuubi and sent them flying and then Kakashi stated he couldn't even see its speed. His tail>his punch since tails are the strongest (Bijuu resorted to it vs v3 Susano, wouldn't if it wasn't stronger then their punch). Juubi>>>>>>>>>>>SM Naruto<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<Hiashi Air Palm.

Already agreed that the difference between the momentum of a moving tail and a still tail are different.

-Naruto's overall jump strength isn't a representation of his boost in speed alone when his boost in speed alone is only a part of why he is that strong to begin with. So saying "Naruto was fodder but became strong enough to contend with Orochimaru" doesn't matter. What's even funnier is that Naruto wasn't fodder in the beginning of Part 1, unlike the real fodder alliance members who were reacting to this so called "extreme speed" with no troubles. Lol slapping a Kyuubi cloak onto a fodder doesn't make them top tier in speed. Your Naruto example helps nothing considering Naruto w/ the Kyuubi cloak in early Part 2 was fast, but nowhere near top tier either.

-Lol? What? Early Pt 2 Naruto is weaker than these people?

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Nameless fodder? Lmfao. I hope you are joking.

And no, it's not implicative that the tail moves at extremely high speeds. V2 Juubi being stronger overall then V1 Juubi doesn't change the fact that V1 Juubi's movements are obviously much faster. Not debatable. So referencing V1 Juubi's feats doesn't help your argument. Trying to upscale from v1 Juubi's feats is a terrible idea when V1 Juubi is shown to be faster, while V2 Juubi is much much slower since it's attacks go from blitzing BM Naruto, Hachibi, Gai and Kakashi to being reacted to by cloaked fodder with no real trouble at all.

V2 Juubi may have more physical strength, but it's infinitely slower than it's first form too, thus the force it puts out with it's attacks aren't automatically going to be superior to it's former self. Given it's frail build in it's initial second form, I won't be surprised if V1 Juubi packs more of a punch than initial V2 Juubi. Especially since the Akimichi were capable of restraining it's tails with the cloak on.

I don't really understand what you are trying to convey here?

-Neji easily reacted to the Juubi's tail with Kaiten.
-They stated Neji's attacks wouldn't make it in time to save Naruto from the Sashiki spike.
-Thus Sashiki moves faster than the Juubi's tails in it's initial V2 state.
-Fodder and low tier ninja were reacting and/or dodging those.
-Thus Juubi's tails are not anywhere near the higher echelons of the speed tiering in the Manga.

Knowing about it doesn't mean anything, it being 40 meters doesn't mean anything. Hiashi uses it and there's nothing SM Naruto can do about it because there's no way he can dodge something so large with his Pain Arc speed feats. And what? The Juubi's hand is far, far larger then a Bijuu. These are Bijuu sized beings [

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] and the Gate on the left dwarfs them completely. We're only seeing 1/4th of that gate and it already completely dwarfs them, please don't try to make this comparison because slightly is not supposed to be the word you are using here. It's like 20 times the size of a Bijuu, and Bijuu's have been calced at huge sizes in the past. You can't even see the person on top of the Summon in these pages, so saying Naruto can dodge this absolutely gigantic attack is completely fallacious.

Lol. Your whole comparison falls apart because you decided to use the bulked up and larger V2 Juubi to prove that it's scrawny state's tails dwarf Bijuu in size.

-Hachibi compared to Juubi's head. [

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] [

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]

-Juubi's head compared to it's tails. [

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]

Thus I was wrong to assume that they were even slightly smaller than Bijuu. Bijuu are slightly larger than Juubi's tails, at least the hand part of the tails. This attack is far from gigantic. To dodge it he only needs to cross a distance equal to half the width of a Bijuu, and that distance is nothing. His speed feat of blitzing Asura Path from over 25m away and the lack of any real speed feats for Air Palm are reason enough for Naruto dodging it with no trouble.

If it could deflect the Juubi's tail then the only way for it to do so is through speed. All Air Palms would be the same barring the speed. It's merely compressed air, the faster it goes and the larger it is, the more power it will have. The difference is force per unit area. Neji's air palm barely pushed away 30% Kisame 3 meters back. Hiashi's Air Palm overpowered the Juubi's Tail. There's clearly a massive speed behind the Vacuum Air Palm for it to do so. If it was moving at a similar speed of the one Neji used then the Juubi would ignore it since it could move an 80kg person (the guy acting like 30% Kisame) 3 meters away. Size would be irrelevant since it doesn't have 1/1000th of the momentum to move or affect something the size of the Juubi Tail. Yet his Vaccum Air Palm overpowered it while it was moving at high speeds.

No. The more air=The more force regardless of them moving at the same speed. Just how the force of a giant ball moving at 20mph will be far greater than the force of a smaller ball moving at the same exact speed. If anything all Air Palms might move at the same speed, with the only difference being the size of the air being compressed, but who knows? Either way, this attack has no real speed feat. Intercepting the Juubi's tail doesn't make it faster or on par, and even if it did, the Juubi's tail is not even fast when it comes to the higher tiers of speed in this Manga.

What you are saying in the bold doesn't even make sense. Same goes with the underlined.

@underlined: Hiashi's Air Palm is far larger than Neji's Air Palm. Thus the force it outputs will be much larger regardless of the speed being the same. So why would you use Neji's Air Palm as evidence that Hiashi's Air Palm can't move at the same speed and do what it did?

@bold: Momentum is determined by mass and velocity. The larger it is, the more momentum behind it. The faster it is, the more momentum behind it.

 

[Apêx1]

Already agreed that the difference between the momentum of a moving tail and a still tail are different.

-Naruto's overall jump strength isn't a representation of his boost in speed alone when his boost in speed alone is only a part of why he is that strong to begin with. So saying "Naruto was fodder but became strong enough to contend with Orochimaru" doesn't matter. What's even funnier is that Naruto wasn't fodder in the beginning of Part 1, unlike the real fodder alliance members who were reacting to this so called "extreme speed" with no troubles. Lol slapping a Kyuubi cloak onto a fodder doesn't make them top tier in speed. Your Naruto example helps nothing considering Naruto w/ the Kyuubi cloak in early Part 2 was fast, but nowhere near top tier either.

I fail to see which fodders reacted to it.

-Lol? What? Early Pt 2 Naruto is weaker than these people?

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Nameless fodder? Lmfao. I hope you are joking.

These guys weren't even attacked by the Juubi's tail lmao. All they did was attack the Juubi with their shadow possession, how is this even a viable comparison?

And no, it's not implicative that the tail moves at extremely high speeds. V2 Juubi being stronger overall then V1 Juubi doesn't change the fact that V1 Juubi's movements are obviously much faster. Not debatable. So referencing V1 Juubi's feats doesn't help your argument. Trying to upscale from v1 Juubi's feats is a terrible idea when V1 Juubi is shown to be faster, while V2 Juubi is much much slower since it's attacks go from blitzing BM Naruto, Hachibi, Gai and Kakashi to being reacted to by cloaked fodder with no real trouble at all.

Based on what are they much faster? And lol, they all only reacted because of the huge distance the tails needed to cross. Reacting to v2 Ay from 50 meters and 10 meters are two completely different things.

V2 Juubi may have more physical strength, but it's infinitely slower than it's first form too, thus the force it puts out with it's attacks aren't automatically going to be superior to it's former self. Given it's frail build in it's initial second form, I won't be surprised if V1 Juubi packs more of a punch than initial V2 Juubi. Especially since the Akimichi were capable of restraining it's tails with the cloak on.

I'd like an actual reason as to why it's slower. Akimichi's were already contending with the Gedo without a Kyuubi cloak. Adding the Kyuubi cloak and War Arc boosts which everyone received and you'll come to realise that a 50x kyuubi boost+ is quite huge factor.

-Neji easily reacted to the Juubi's tail with Kaiten.
-They stated Neji's attacks wouldn't make it in time to save Naruto from the Sashiki spike.
-Thus Sashiki moves faster than the Juubi's tails in it's initial V2 state.
-Fodder and low tier ninja were reacting and/or dodging those.
-Thus Juubi's tails are not anywhere near the higher echelons of the speed tiering in the Manga.

Wrong. There were clearly other factors and Hiashi only stated they wouldn't be able to react in time with an air palm, he didn't say they couldn't react at all, as clearly, Neji could move the distance to save Hinata from the attack AFTER Hinata decided to save Naruto, at which point the spikes were ONLY about 1 meter away. He's clearly capable of reacting, just not with an air palm or a Kaiten (since Kaiten wouldn't be spinning fast enough). Saying he can't spin fast enough like he spun when against the v2 Juubi tail is fallacious, if he can move at the last second then he can spin at an even faster rate. Also, the pin point attack was far faster then the regular one, Hinata's impression of "that's fast" should make that obvious given she was casually reacting with air palms before. Nobody else reacted to that pin point attack, don't know what you are on about. So your entire attempt to downplay it fails.

Lol. Your whole comparison falls apart because you decided to use the bulked up and larger V2 Juubi to prove that it's scrawny state's tails dwarf Bijuu in size.

-Hachibi compared to Juubi's head. [

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] [

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]

-Juubi's head compared to it's tails. [

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]

Alright I concede, forgot he changed size.

Thus I was wrong to assume that they were even slightly smaller than Bijuu. Bijuu are slightly larger than Juubi's tails, at least the hand part of the tails. This attack is far from gigantic. To dodge it he only needs to cross a distance equal to half the width of a Bijuu, and that distance is nothing. His speed feat of blitzing Asura Path from over 25m away and the lack of any real speed feats for Air Palm are reason enough for Naruto dodging it with no trouble.

Still disagree and will list reasons in the next part of my argument.

No. The more air=The more force regardless of them moving at the same speed. Just how the force of a giant ball moving at 20mph will be far greater than the force of a smaller ball moving at the same exact speed. If anything all Air Palms might move at the same speed, with the only difference being the size of the air being compressed, but who knows? Either way, this attack has no real speed feat. Intercepting the Juubi's tail doesn't make it faster or on par, and even if it did, the Juubi's tail is not even fast when it comes to the higher tiers of speed in this Manga.

What you are saying in the bold doesn't even make sense. Same goes with the underlined.

@underlined: Hiashi's Air Palm is far larger than Neji's Air Palm. Thus the force it outputs will be much larger regardless of the speed being the same. So why would you use Neji's Air Palm as evidence that Hiashi's Air Palm can't move at the same speed and do what it did?

@bold: Momentum is determined by mass and velocity. The larger it is, the more momentum behind it. The faster it is, the more momentum behind it.

Hmm, fair enough, can't argue with that. Should still be extremely fast though.

Ight, I still believe it would hit from 10 meters since there's literally nothing Naruto can do about it from such a distance. The usage of clones in SM @Pein Arc would be limited so countering it is still a difficult task for Naruto.

 

[Draegod]

It's called vacuum palm (hiashi uses vacuum wall palm), and it is chakra (gentle fist to be exact). It isn't "air" or wind, it's pure chakra.

 

[KidGamer65]

I fail to see which fodders reacted to it.

The fodders who were next to Temari swinging their fans.

These guys weren't even attacked by the Juubi's tail lmao. All they did was attack the Juubi with their shadow possession, how is this even a viable comparison?

You said that the cloaked fodder were stronger than Early Pt 2. Naruto. I only posted those scans to show you what fodders you claimed that Naruto was weaker than.

Based on what are they much faster? And lol, they all only reacted because of the huge distance the tails needed to cross. Reacting to v2 Ay from 50 meters and 10 meters are two completely different things.

-V1 Juubi blitzes BM Naruto and Hachibi and Kakashi can't even see it's movement.
-V2 Juubi's attacks are reacted to by fodder, and people nowhere near BM Naruto's level of speed.

And what large distance? They were right in front of the Juubi.

I also pray that you aren't implying they are even comparable in speed.

I'd like an actual reason as to why it's slower. Akimichi's were already contending with the Gedo without a Kyuubi cloak. Adding the Kyuubi cloak and War Arc boosts which everyone received and you'll come to realise that a 50x kyuubi boost+ is quite huge factor.

Like I said above. One was blitzing BM naruto and a Sharingan user couldn't follow it's movements while the other was failing to blitz fodder and people nowhere near BM Naruto and Kakashi's speed level. Meaning V2 Juubi is slower than V1 Juubi.

Akimichi weren't contending with the Gedo. Choza and Choji, probably the two most powerful Akimichi, slammed the Gedo with a full force hit and barely moved it. Then it knocked them back with it's roar let alone it's own physical strength.

If only this was substantiated by any tangible evidence. Not sure where a "50x boost" came from when the only thing we know about the cloak's boost is that it's far stronger than a 3x boost.

Wrong. There were clearly other factors and Hiashi only stated they wouldn't be able to react in time with an air palm, he didn't say they couldn't react at all, as clearly, Neji could move the distance to save Hinata from the attack AFTER Hinata decided to save Naruto, at which point the spikes were ONLY about 1 meter away. He's clearly capable of reacting, just not with an air palm or a Kaiten (since Kaiten wouldn't be spinning fast enough). Saying he can't spin fast enough like he spun when against the v2 Juubi tail is fallacious, if he can move at the last second then he can spin at an even faster rate. Also, the pin point attack was far faster then the regular one, Hinata's impression of "that's fast" should make that obvious given she was casually reacting with air palms before. Nobody else reacted to that pin point attack, don't know what you are on about. So your entire attempt to downplay it fails.

Meh. Ok. Doesn't change the overall point though.

Still disagree and will list reasons in the next part of my argument.

Ok.

Hmm, fair enough, can't argue with that. Should still be extremely fast though.

No. It doesn't need to be extremely fast to pull off what it did, but meh.

Ight, I still believe it would hit from 10 meters since there's literally nothing Naruto can do about it from such a distance. The usage of clones in SM @Pein Arc would be limited so countering it is still a difficult task for Naruto.

10m is arguable. It'd probably hit, or maybe Naruto can avoid the brunt of the attack.

And Naruto is only limited in his clone usage if he wants to enter Sage Mode two more times after his 5 minute limit runs out, or after he's used 2 Rasen Shuriken.

 

[Hagoromo Reanimation]

Naruto could endure Shinra tensei (which sent 3 boss summons flying away), he can endure air palm. Please think before posting your fanboy nonsense.

Spoiler

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But of course, i'm waiting for you to say that Air palm > Shinra tensei or that naruto won't be on time to make the clones... it's you after all.

Black panther speed blitzes Zabuza dude, really. It doesn't matter if zetsu dodged it, lmao.

Naruto shits on Hiashi all day every day of the week.

Endure Naruto Got KO'd By a baby gentle fist lmao

Spoiler

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Jk just wanted to kid around XD

 

[Apêx1]

The fodders who were next to Temari swinging their fans.




You said that the cloaked fodder were stronger than Early Pt 2. Naruto. I only posted those scans to show you what fodders you claimed that Naruto was weaker than.



-V1 Juubi blitzes BM Naruto and Hachibi and Kakashi can't even see it's movement.
-V2 Juubi's attacks are reacted to by fodder, and people nowhere near BM Naruto's level of speed.

And what large distance? They were right in front of the Juubi.

I also pray that you aren't implying they are even comparable in speed.



Like I said above. One was blitzing BM naruto and a Sharingan user couldn't follow it's movements while the other was failing to blitz fodder and people nowhere near BM Naruto and Kakashi's speed level. Meaning V2 Juubi is slower than V1 Juubi.

Akimichi weren't contending with the Gedo. Choza and Choji, probably the two most powerful Akimichi, slammed the Gedo with a full force hit and barely moved it. Then it knocked them back with it's roar let alone it's own physical strength.

If only this was substantiated by any tangible evidence. Not sure where a "50x boost" came from when the only thing we know about the cloak's boost is that it's far stronger than a 3x boost.






Meh. Ok. Doesn't change the overall point though.




Ok.



No. It doesn't need to be extremely fast to pull off what it did, but meh.



10m is arguable. It'd probably hit, or maybe Naruto can avoid the brunt of the attack.

And Naruto is only limited in his clone usage if he wants to enter Sage Mode two more times after his 5 minute limit runs out, or after he's used 2 Rasen Shuriken.

Alright I'll concede, can't see how Hiashi would win from 40 meters given his lack of feats.

 

[Mellow]

Naruto should shred hiashi