[Theory] Hashirama's Moukton and Chakra absorption

[Dante Demiurges]

Not really. There are two known characters-besides Hashirama- who got the Kekkai Genkai Mokuton along the normal lines~Tsunade and Nawaki. But both aren't known to be true masters of Ninjutsu and don't even have Suiton and Doton-so far as I know. Without Suiton and Doton, no Mokuton.


Nope, Naruto may bean idiot, but he could even master Keitaihenka perfectly as a kid. But that doesn't matter now. Hashirama didn't "unlock" Mokuton. Mokuton is the ability to combine the Seishitsuhenka of Doton and Suiton by using both simultaneous, as Tenzō has explained it. If Hashirama would have mastered Suiton and Doton with ten years, he would have been (probably) able to use Mokuton too. That's the propertie of a body which holds the Kekkai Genkai Mokuton.

So by going your logic bearer of Rinnegan, Kakashi, Mei ..... should use mokuton as they can use both Doton and Suiton perfectly(Kakashi?), but that is not the fact in the manga, to use mokuton one must exclusively have HASHIRAMA's cells, not mastery over water and earth(Zetsu, tobi, Madara).

What do you mean by 10 years? is it that at the age of 10 he had mastered both suiton and doton, or do you mean it took 10 years of training to master both?

 

[LaFlameXX]

I think the ability Naruto has that stemmed from the Juubi/Shinju is the 9 bijuu power, which is his equivalent to Sasuke gaining the Juubi's eye.

 

[KLhunter]

Yamato was the great example even though he can use Makuton but not as good as Hashirama due to:-

1) Hashirama have plenty of Chakra - Ashura, life force
2) Hashirama infuse it with God Sage Art Technique..

 

[Behemoth55]

So by going your logic bearer of Rinnegan, Kakashi, Mei ..... should use mokuton as they can use both Doton and Suiton perfectly(Kakashi?)

Nope, they don't have the Kekkai Genkai to connect both Seishitsuhenka. If Mei would use Doton and Suiton at the same time it woudn't result in Mokuton. Anyway, that's the way Yamato described the usage of Mokuton(chapter 316).

 

[Manry]

I think Sasuke has the capability to use mokuton now, with his shiny new chunk of Hashirama DNA, though I seriously doubt he will.

 

[Dante Demiurges]

Nope, they don't have the Kekkai Genkai to connect both Seishitsuhenka. If Mei would use Doton and Suiton at the same time it woudn't result in Mokuton. Anyway, that's the way Yamato described the usage of Mokuton(chapter 316).

There is something special about Mokuton which if life, no other Kekkai Genkai has life except mokuton which plays well in my favor as combining two lifeless elements create a lifeless element but when you combine Doton and Suiton through Hashirama you get Mokuton why? because he has the Ashuras life force which intern is sages life force, Hashirama is able to breath life into an element making them living. Your right other people who will combine Suiton and Doton would not get the same release but its only through hashirama that he is able to create mokuton which has life, the reason that he is special is because he is Ashura's reincarnation and Ashura's chakra resides in him.

The sage used Yang(Ashura) to breath life into a form which was created by using Yin(Indra), here Obito explains it in laymen terms:

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[Behemoth55]

Unlike most kekkei Genkais there is something special about mokuton which is that it has life, no other bloodline limit has life except Mokuton, and Ashura being the embodiment of sages life force might have this ability of giving something life but not form(madara can do this).

Mokuton is the wood-release, chakra that assumes the shape of wood. Mokuton doesn't base on Yōton, therefore your statement can't be right. Shikotsumyaku on the other hand creates living cells and doesn't have any relation to Yōton, Hagoromo or Ashura.

and that is why only those with sages physical power can breath life into something, the sage himself demonstrated this with the creation of the bijuus, that is how Obito explained it:

Banbutsu Sōzō is completely different than Mokuton. And Yōton has many possible applications, even Choji uses Yō, the Yang-element.
The truth is, it seems you try to make Mokuton into something "more special" by upsetting the properties of Inton, Yōton and Inyōton.
I won't say your quintessence can't be right, but I say the current state of things discounts your argumentation, which is true actually.

Mokuton is the special Kekkai Genkai of Hashirama which allows him to combine Suiton and Doton. A Kekkai Genkai refers to a change of genotype. And Ashuras chakra coudn't influence Hashiramas genotype, right? For this reason Mokuton shouldn't have a connection to Ashura. Chakra isn't a vector of a Kekkai Genkai, but living cells.

Hagoromo created due to Banbutsu Sōzo, which base on Inyōton, independent beings with own unique characteristics. That's Inton and Yōton in perfection. Actually, there is no connection between Yōton, the Yang-element, and Mokuton. Mokuton is just chakra -Moku=wood/ton=chakra release- in this meaning.

 

[Seventh Sama]

I disagree, as much as i want naruto to get mokuton. him getting it wouldn't make much sense.... Besides he wouldn't be able to use its techs, He'd be restricted to Mokuton rasengan-Rasenshuriken :l

It's still an interesting thread tho.

 

[Dante Demiurges]

Mokuton is the wood-release, chakra that assumes the shape of wood. Mokuton doesn't base on Yōton, therefore your statement can't be right. Shikotsumyaku on the other hand creates living cells and doesn't have any relation to Yōton, Hagoromo or Ashura.



Banbutsu Sōzō is completely different than Mokuton. And Yōton has many possible applications, even Choji uses Yō, the Yang-element.
The truth is, it seems you try to make Mokuton into something "more special" by upsetting the properties of Inton, Yōton and Inyōton.
I won't say your quintessence can't be right, but I say the current state of things discounts your argumentation, which is true actually.

Mokuton is the special Kekkai Genkai of Hashirama which allows him to combine Suiton and Doton. A Kekkai Genkai refers to a change of genotype. And Ashuras chakra coudn't influence Hashiramas genotype, right? For this reason Mokuton shouldn't have a connection to Ashura. Chakra isn't a vector of a Kekkai Genkai, but living cells.

Hagoromo created due to Banbutsu Sōzo, which base on Inyōton, independent beings with own unique characteristics. That's Inton and Yōton in perfection. Actually, there is no connection between Yōton, the Yang-element, and Mokuton. Mokuton is just chakra -Moku=wood/ton=chakra release- in this meaning.

Shikotsumyaku may well have a relation with Kaguya, but nonetheless, the release itself manipulates ones skeleton and does not create that out of nothing, its simply generating the bone cells very fast and manipulating them which is not creating but manipulating, but wood release has no distinct connection with hashirama and the fact that he is able to create massive wooden structures out of ground and animal cell being different from plant cell makes your first answer invalid.

COAT itself has a connection with wood release as creating life is connected with the usage of Yang release, and hashirama being able to breath life into something fits perfect with my argument as the sages Yang powers resides within Hashirama. Wood itself has life and without using Yang energy to give it life, it wouldn't be wood as wood, tree are living being.

When Hashirama used Mokuton Hijutsu: Jukai Kōtan he created an entire forest of trees which are living creatures and the very fact of Wood release being special is not absurd or non canonical but fits perfectly with the manga, as it is the only release that creates life(not manipulation).

"A Kekkai Genkai refers to a change of genotype. And Ashuras chakra coudn't influence Hashiramas genotype, right? For this reason Mokuton shouldn't have a connection to Ashura. Chakra isn't a vector of a Kekkai Genkai, but living cells."

True, but giving life to something comes from ones yang Chakra or in this special case from Sage's chakra, and as you said that Chakra is vector of living cells not KG which is very compatible with me giving something life must come from his chakra(Ashuras chakra). that is why kabuto giving sasuke just Hashirama's dna wouldn't grant him wood release but it is hashiramas chakra which is special and life giving.

.....................

Wood release are living cells, giving life comes from Yang(Sage's chakra) and Hashirama's Yang(Ashura) is the source of giving the combination of Doton and Suiton life.

 

[jazza1017]

I do believe Naruto will get Wood Style and here is why! If you look at the similarities between Sasuke and Madara who are both part of the Uchiha clan and the reincarnations of Indra, disregarding the Rinnegan, and comparing their EMS abilities, they are literally identical. If you compare Naruto and Hashirama, although they are technically both descendants of Asura disregarding the fact they are from different clans who are distant relatives, there is nothing that even links them together when it comes to the fact that they are both reincarnations of Asura. If you look at Hashirama's flashbacks of his battles with Madara, he was never shown to have wood style until he was around Naruto's current age or possibly even older. A lot of people are going to say, "oh why should Naruto get wood style if he has the power of all the tailed beasts!!! Wouldn't that make him OP??" No, if you think about it, those won't powers that Naruto could have never had. They were given to him through various means such as sealing techniques and the fact that the the other tailed beasts and gave him parts of their chakra, which created the cloak he currently has. If he was never a Jinchrurikki in the first place, what powers would he have??? And please don't tell me sage mode is something special, because non-decedents of the younger sage such as Jiraiya, Minato and Kabuto can use it too. Based on this fact, Naruto has inherited absolutely nothing from his bloodline besides a strong life force. So considering these facts, why should Naruto not get the ability to wood style??? In my opinion, wood style is a bloodline limit that can't even be compared to the likes of other blood line limits like lava style due to the fact that is creates life, a trait that was stated from the very start that was 1/2 of the sage of 6 paths power. Hashirama's wood release: wood human technique proves this. As a matter of fact, I wouldn't even consider wood style a blood line limit because of this. The fact the Hashirama's ancestors or decedents haven't shown any sign of being able to obtain this ability proves this. The fact that he is a decedent of Asura is the only explanation as to how he is the only one with this ability. In my opinion, Kishi has disgraced the ability by letting it being abused by guys like Danzo, Obito, Yamato etc, who were only able to obtain the ability through experiments. At-least give wood style some glory by allowing Naruto to awaken the ability and use it to its full potential just like Hashirama. Like Orochimaru stated that Sasuke has the potential to surpass Madara, the 2nd Hokage said the same about Naruto potentially surpassing Hashirama. If there is supposed to be any bond between Naruto and Hashirama, it has to be woodstyle. I rest my case!!!

 

[ninjarasengan]

So far as I know Mokuton is a Kekkai Genkai only Hashirama could awake. And only Mokuton: Ryu no Jutsu could absorb chakra. Mokujin no Jutsu and so on doesn't have these ability.
If Ashuras chakra would be responsible for Mokuton, then Naruto would use it since part 1 probably, but that's not the case currently. A Kekkai Genkai refers also to a change of genotype.

Not really although she is around Naruto's age, Karin just manifested the uzumaki chakra chains...so far there is not a specific age when someone has to activate their kekkai Genkai...as a matter of fact since you are using Hashirama, there was no sign of him having Mokuton when he was around Naruto's age from part 1...we have no Idea how old he was when he awakened it.


As for your mastering chakra natures instead of awakening Mokuton theory...Haku has a bloodline limit based on chakra natures and he randomly awakened it with no training while he was a kid so....

 

[Behemoth55]

Shikotsumyaku may well have a relation with Kaguya, but nonetheless, the release itself manipulates ones skeleton and does not create that out of nothing, its simply generating the bone cells very fast and manipulating them which is not creating but manipulating,

No. The Kaguya-Clan can even create new structure of bones. Independently from the own body.

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So your point has been disproved, Dante. ^^

COAT itself has a connection with wood release as creating life is connected with the usage of Yang release, and hashirama being able to breath life into something fits perfect with my argument as the sages Yang powers resides within Hashirama. Wood itself has life and without using Yang energy to give it life, it wouldn't be wood as wood, tree are living being.

That's your misunderstanding. Creating life is directly connected to Banbutsu Sōzō. The way Hagoromo uses Yōton in Banbutsu Sōzōs case is special. Hashiramas Mokuton doesn't contain Yōton, the Yang-element. That's a given fact of the manga and databook.
The ability to create wood isn't a propertie of Yōton. Your argument that trees are living beings is invalid in this case, because they contain only two Seishitsuhenka-Doton and Suiton.
The Yang-element, Yōton is shown white in the manga and blue in the anime. These propertie would also affect Mokuton, but that's not the case currently. Yang-chakra owns also vitalizing qualities, sure, but it doesn't have to be involved if someone creates bones or a plant.

True, but giving life to something comes from ones yang Chakra or in this special case from Sage's chakra, and as you said that Chakra is vector of living cells not KG which is very compatible with me giving something life must come from his chakra(Ashuras chakra).

Nope, I didn't say that. Chakra isn't a vector of living cells. That's impossible, chakra contains only of physical and spiritual energy. And Hashirama didn't use Ashuras chakra for his Jutsu. The same goes for Madara and Indras chakra. They kneaded only their own inner chakra to transform it into the shape of Ninjutsu.

My two cents: To be honest, I thaught and think even now that there is maybe a connection between Yang and Mokuton, since Kuramas Yang-chakra could affect it as well, however, these connection is pretty vague currently. That's why I declared only the current state of things.

 

[konoha s beautiful beast]

wood style is a combination of water and earth styles. in theory, every s class jounin can use it possessing those two styles.

 

[flyboyissac]

i think it was stated by madara that hashirama was the only one who had wood style

 

[Dante Demiurges]

No. The Kaguya-Clan can even create new structure of bones. Independently from the own body.

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So your point has been disproved, Dante. ^^


That's your misunderstanding. Creating life is directly connected to Banbutsu Sōzō. The way Hagoromo uses Yōton in Banbutsu Sōzōs case is special. Hashiramas Mokuton doesn't contain Yōton, the Yang-element. That's a given fact of the manga and databook.
The ability to create wood isn't a propertie of Yōton. Your argument that trees are living beings is invalid in this case, because they contain only two Seishitsuhenka-Doton and Suiton.
The Yang-element, Yōton is shown white in the manga and blue in the anime. These propertie would also affect Mokuton, but that's not the case currently. Yang-chakra owns also vitalizing qualities, sure, but it doesn't have to be involved if someone creates bones or a plant.



Nope, I didn't say that. Chakra isn't a vector of living cells. That's impossible, chakra contains only of physical and spiritual energy. And Hashirama didn't use Ashuras chakra for his Jutsu. The same goes for Madara and Indras chakra. They kneaded only their own inner chakra to transform it into the shape of Ninjutsu.

My two cents: To be honest, I thaught and think even now that there is maybe a connection between Yang and Mokuton, since Kuramas Yang-chakra could affect it as well, however, these connection is pretty vague currently. That's why I declared only the current state of things.

Your first answer is stupendously horrendous, because the jutsu which is called Sawarabi no Mai is essentialy the same thing as i mentioned you control your body bones and with that you can create gigantic structures, read chapter "217" to find out how the technique works even while kabuto was using the jutsu Kimmimaro touched the ground because he needed grow bones from his hands, and please even the databook itself says that Shikotsumyaku is the control and manipulation of bones, " Shikotsumyaku (屍骨脈; Literally meaning "Dead Bone Pulse", Meaning (Viz) "Macabre Bone Pulse") is the kekkei genkai of the extinct Kaguya clan, which gave them the ability to manipulate their own skeletal structure (their osteoblasts and osteoclasts). By infusing their calcium with chakra, they could manipulate the growth and properties of their bones to their liking.",

Here Kimmimaro uses the jutsu:

Spoiler

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at the last scan you are able to see that he is connected to the bones.

Kimmimaro in Kabuto uses the technique:

Spoiler

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you will be able to see that his hands are on ground.

And the databook itself states it even Kimmimaro(Orochimaru?) has stated that Kim's KG is bone manipulation and control.

Every cell contains chakra, as sakura explained it early on, and the two sons both have yin and yang but the special part of the sages chakra(yin and yang) were given respectively to Indra and Ashura.

COAT itself is a two part jutsu first you create a form out of nothingness with Yin and then you breath life into that Tobi explained that early on, and said that Izanagi is based on that jutsu and specifically the Yin part.

Yang can breath life into something this has been proven when naruto entered KCM mode and it affected Yamato's Moukton making them more lively, and Naruto was able to breath life into Gai something which is deemed impossible considering that even Madara himself was surprised, he does not have COAT but has the life giving or the YANG ability.

For the last part, you said that chakra isn't a vector of cell but it is!, and the very fact that you need hashirama's cells not DNA in order to create mokuton makes your point invalid, because if it is simply a KG it should be as you say related to GENES but you need hashirama's cells which contains his chakra to perform wood release which means that it is not simply a KG but something more than that which has connection to Hashirama's chakra(Ashura).

Though i might be wrong but as I see things as of right now there is a high possibility that wood release might be related to Ashura.