[Discussion] Hashirama vs Madara 624

[valandil988]

I just wanted to state that when people state that Madara and Hashirama were in anyway comparable in strength or on a similar level that they are dead wrong.

In 624 we see Madara laid low to the point of immobility. One thing sticks out. The fact that Madara isn't dead or even visibly wounded speaks volumes of Hashirama's strength and skill. It seems like Hashirama just out lasted him in stamina rather than beating the crap out of him.

We can most certainly be sure that Madara is fighting to kill Hashirama with all of his might and would go to any length to do so. In all of their battles we have seen so far Hashirama fights defensively not offensively....

We can also be sure that Hashirama is not fighting to kill Madara. If he had been and they were comparable in strength I find it very unlikely that anything would be left of Madara's body had they been truly comparable.

To me it seems like Hashirama is allowing himself the luxury of fighting to incapacitate during his battles with Madara similar to how Naruto fought Sasuke, except Naruto didn't have stupid levels of skill and power and hence quite rightly lost. This speaks very highly of Hashirama he doesn't have a true will to fight and yet he still wins?

This means that Madara is no where near Hashirama's strength and skill by a wide margin...likely far wider than we have seen so far. Even with Rinnegan and his own assimilated Mokuton I doubt Madara could defeat Hashirama, the difference in skill is likely just too great...why do you think Madara wants to juubi anyway???

I doubt he will go though with infinite Tsukuyomi by its very definition its an expression of wanting to give up or run away from the world something I can't see a guy like Madara doing; no he wants the Juubi for the same purpose he thought the Kyuubi would help him and he tricked Obito into reconstructing it for him. He knows he still needs help to even scratch Hashirama or force him to take him seriously...

 

[Noni]

you have a point in the stamina part because since the senju have the sages physical force then he should have more stamina

 

[SenseiMartian]

You bring up a good point about how it's like he's not trying to kill Madara, while Madara is full-force trying to kill Hashirama.

 

[valandil988]

you have a point in the stamina part because since the senju have the sages physical force then he should have more stamina

Yeah but stamina means jack if you can't block a blow aimed to take off your head....hence my point Madara in each fight was constantly trying to kill Hashirama....Hashirama on the other hand just stopped his every attempt tiring him out without even needing to wound him. Hence why I would say Hashirama is on a totally different level from Madara.

 

[pandu]

Seems legit ^_^

 

[valandil988]

You bring up a good point about how it's like he's not trying to kill Madara, while Madara is full-force trying to kill Hashirama.

At most all we've seen is Hashirama tired or panting...that is not exhaustion he was fine just minutes later lol...

 

[duken fist]

legitttylll

 

[Kinez]

Might be wrong, but at that page where Madara is on the ground, u can clearly see whole loads of other ninjas including Tobirama.. i am guessing they might have given help as well to Hashi seeing as Madara is a great threat( point also might be Tobiaram as well has witnesed the power of madara in combat himself, thus he was cautions) ?

 

[Naruto D Luffy]

legit and nice point

 

[KCMNaruto]

You have some points , but you are wrong at one thing,

Hashriama being stronger than Madara - YES

Hashirama being stronger than Madara by wide margin - NO

Why Madara wasn't much weaker than Hashirama :

First reason: Madara had just accquired EMS and then fought Hashirama, so he could still lack experience with use of EMS. Prove could be that Kishi showed Madara using Sussano full skeleton form on purpose, he could show Complete form of Sussano already, what a deal ? I am sure MS Madara and MS Izuna has Complete form of Sussano already.

Second reason: Can we be really sure that Madara fought only Hashi ?, no we can't, if we go to next page then we can see Tobirama and Some Senjuu members in the panel. Strange thing is that Tobirama has some dirty on his clothers, Did he fight Madara too ?, maybe I can't prove as well as you can't disprove it, it is just asumption.

Third reason: Entire battle was offscreen, so we don't know how battle looked like, do we ? We don't know if anyone of them had upperhand in this battle and how long, maybe it was changing along with progress of battle. One time supperior Hashirama, few moments later Madara and it could repeat. I didn't see until now Hashirama getting through Sussano, so he could simply outlast him by greater amount of chakra. It would fit well to words Kishi stated in manga some time ago: they were rivals and close ot each other level, so if one of them has much more chakra then other even if they are equal in offence and deffence then who would be supperior ?

Obviously someone with bigger amount of chakra and Senjuu are known for great amount of chakra and powerfull body so it could fit.

Fourth reason: Madara and Hashirama are unwounded only tired with Madara being much more. It could suggest us, readers that Madara and Hashirama were equal in deffence and offence so none of them can overcome each other until one of them run out of chakra.

Fifth reason: Why this battle lasted twenty hour if Hashirama was so much supperior to Madara ?, or maybe he wasn't but he knew that he could outlast Madara in amount of chakra.


Only explanation: Hashirama wasn't fighting with killer intent and Madara was fighting with killer intent, but being ex-friends, maybe both of them tried overpower another side without giving death blow to each other.

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Now it is ridiculous, Edo Madara weaker than Hashirama, that funny man, really funny. It is not true from one fact.

naturally evolved Rinnengan > Everything, if Rinnengan is full mastered then it is true(SOSP) .

Rinnengan alows user to do any jutsu > Everything edo Hashirama can do - MANGA FACT

but you have point that:

Madara with EMS and Mokuton<Hashriama Sage mode and Mokuton

but then come Rinnengan, god protect these who has to face off true power of Rinnengan...

 

[valandil988]

You have some points , but you are wrong at one thing,

Hashriama being stronger than Madara - YES

Hashirama being stronger than Madara by wide margin - NO

Why Madara wasn't much weaker than Hashirama :

First reason: Madara had just accquired EMS and then fought Hashirama, so he could still lack experience with use of EMS. Prove could be that Kishi showed Madara using Sussano full skeleton form on purpose, he could show Complete form of Sussano already, what a deal ? I am sure MS Madara and MS Izuna has Complete form of Sussano already.

Second reason: Can we be really sure that Madara fought only Hashi ?, no we can't, if we go to next page then we can see Tobirama and Some Senjuu members in the panel. Strange thing is that Tobirama has some dirty on his clothers, Did he fight Madara too ?, maybe I can't prove as well as you can't disprove it, it is just asumption.

Third reason: Entire battle was offscreen, so we don't know how battle looked like, do we ? We don't know if anyone of them had upperhand in this battle and how long, maybe it was changing along with progress of battle. One time supperior Hashirama, few moments later Madara and it could repeat. I didn't see until now Hashirama getting through Sussano, so he could simply outlast him by greater amount of chakra. It would fit well to words Kishi stated in manga some time ago: they were rivals and close ot each other level, so if one of them has much more chakra then other even if they are equal in offence and deffence then who would be supperior ?

Obviously someone with bigger amount of chakra and Senjuu are known for great amount of chakra and powerfull body so it could fit.

Fourth reason: Madara and Hashirama are unwounded only tired with Madara being much more. It could suggest us, readers that Madara and Hashirama were equal in deffence and offence so none of them can overcome each other until one of them run out of chakra.

Fifth reason: Why this battle lasted twenty hour if Hashirama was so much supperior to Madara ?, or maybe he wasn't but he knew that he could outlast Madara in amount of chakra.


Only explanation: Hashirama wasn't fighting with killer intent and Madara was fighting with killer intent, but being ex-friends, maybe both of them tried overpower another side without giving death blow to each other.

If you want to know more, please read my page:

You must be registered for see links

Now it is ridiculous, Edo Madara weaker than Hashirama, that funny man, really funny. It is not true from one fact.

naturally evolved Rinnengan > Everything, if Rinnengan is full mastered then it is true(SOSP) .

Rinnengan alows user to do any jutsu > Everything edo Hashirama can do - MANGA FACT

but you have point that:

Madara with EMS and Mokuton<Hashriama Sage mode and Mokuton

but then come Rinnengan, god protect these who has to face off true power of Rinnengan...

You make some good points, with his EMS being a relatively new addition we can't assume he had as much control over it as he did when he fought Hashi at the VotE.

I highly doubt that Madara was holding back during this battle he was enraged by his brothers death he wanted Hashi dead. Hashirama was obviously holding back so as not to injure or kill Madara unnecessarily perhaps out of sentimentality or a true wish for peace.

About the chakra difference between the two yes that is an issue but not as great as your thinking. The fact that Hashi can keep going for longer is immaterial when he is having to expend a great deal of energy neutralizing Madara's attacks and protecting himself and others of the senju clan that may have participated. Madara can focus all his efforts on killing everything. Hashi cannot. Hence why I would say that for Hashi to defeat madara in this way by out lasting Madara on the defensive is amazing, takes serious skill. It demonstrates the gap between them.

You cannot say that some fodder from the clan would even be able to tip the balance that much, they are a liability for the reason I have just stated, Hashi is forced to protect them. Tobirama's help is an issue and could sway the balance for a more easier win for Hashi and unlike the others we know he has what it takes so he likely didn't need protecting.

The Rinnegan while a powerful tool is not invincible. Sure you can rain meteors from the sky but the Kages stopped that no prob, Hashirama overpowers them blow for blow in every bracket. The fact that Madara NEEDED the Kyuubi or at least felt like he did as evidenced by Hashirama's Sage mode Mokuton Statue, obviously that turned out not to be enough to match up. Sooo Madara goes looking for more power, Juubi and the Rinnegan. Simple but is that enough? I'm not sure Madara is as confident as he appears. Its far more likely now that....

Madara => Hashirama

They might be might be equal if Hashirama can suppress the Juubi.... but if he can't as we all suspect then....well

Madara>>Hashirama

 

[KCMNaruto]

You make some good points, with his EMS being a relatively new addition we can't assume he had as much control over it as he did when he fought Hashi at the VotE.

Exactly, thanks

I highly doubt that Madara was holding back during this battle he was enraged by his brothers death he wanted Hashi dead. Hashirama was obviously holding back so as not to injure or kill Madara unnecessarily perhaps out of sentimentality or a true wish for peace.

I think you have more chance to be right than I have, so I agree.

About the chakra difference between the two yes that is an issue but not as great as your thinking. The fact that Hashi can keep going for longer is immaterial when he is having to expend a great deal of energy neutralizing Madara's attacks and protecting himself and others of the senju clan that may have participated. Madara can focus all his efforts on killing everything. Hashi cannot. Hence why I would say that for Hashi to defeat madara in this way by out lasting Madara on the defensive is amazing, takes serious skill. It demonstrates the gap between them.

You again brought up some good points, but honestly it is all assumption. We don't have evidence in manga showing how battle looked like, only outcome so we can assume Senjuu clansmen fought along with Hashirama or just came after Hashirama finished Madara. Same with Tobirama, he could fought along Hashirama against Madara or arrived after Madara was dealt with. However Tobirama having dirt on his clothes and saying: '"That their is chance to kill Madara" sounds to me as he participiced in this battle or he saw it so Madara wasn't far behind Hashirama.

You cannot say that some fodder from the clan would even be able to tip the balance that much, they are a liability for the reason I have just stated, Hashi is forced to protect them. Tobirama's help is an issue and could sway the balance for a more easier win for Hashi and unlike the others we know he has what it takes so he likely didn't need protecting.

Again this is all assumption, but i guess Kishi did it on purpouse, leaving it to our imagination backed up by some evidences or simply logic how manga work, so for now i don't go deeper into it.

You The Rinnegan while a powerful tool is not invincible. Sure you can rain meteors from the sky but the Kages stopped that no prob, Hashirama overpowers them blow for blow in every bracket. The fact that Madara NEEDED the Kyuubi or at least felt like he did as evidenced by Hashirama's Sage mode Mokuton Statue, obviously that turned out not to be enough to match up. Sooo Madara goes looking for more power, Juubi and the Rinnegan. Simple but is that enough? I'm not sure Madara is as confident as he appears. Its far more likely now that....

Madara => Hashirama

They might be might be equal if Hashirama can suppress the Juubi.... but if he can't as we all suspect then....well

Madara>>Hashirama

I agree with all you said, but just one thing...

Do you really think that Rinnengan full abilities were shown in manga ?

I could argue with that, we may expierience full power of Rinnegan when we see Sage of six paths in action in some flashbacks

Even now assuming that Edo Madara has everything he shown + what Nagato shown via Rinnengan> anything Hashirama can do


Anyway, great discussion, it was nice and logical. I really enjoyed it
rep +

Sorry for any grammar or typing mistakes but I was in hurry, so I might rush it a little

 

[StrifeMaccy]

While you make a good point, I have to disagree.
Madara is clearly beaten, I'm not even arguing that Madara is stronger at that point in time,
However, Madara has called them fights to the death, and I believe they have been referenced to that several times.
I personally believe that the fight was a battle to the death, which Hashirama won, but due to Madaras own power, he wasnt killed of, just left at hashiramas mercy. Now, looking at the jutsu's they both pulled out in the fight, they were both clearly going all out, Hashi was just a shade stronger, so won.
Madara was on his back exhausted, while Hashi was on his knees looking worn out.
I believe it was a true all out fight, which the slightly stronger opponent won, aka Hashi...

 

[valandil988]

I agree with all you said, but just one thing...

Do you really think that Rinnengan full abilities were shown in manga ?

I could argue with that, we may expierience full power of Rinnegan when we see Sage of six paths in action in some flashbacks

Even now assuming that Edo Madara has everything he shown + what Nagato shown via Rinnengan> anything Hashirama can do


Anyway, great discussion, it was nice and logical. I really enjoyed it
rep +

Sorry for any grammar or typing mistakes but I was in hurry, so I might rush it a little

Thank you

You are very correct when you say most of this discussion was based on assumptions, sadly that's probably all we really have to go on until Hashirama joins the battle field.

True the real powers of the Rinnegan have not been seen. Banbutsu Sōzō is a technique that I am very interested in, it suggests beyond simply creating stuff from nothing that reality itself is subservient with this technique. Izanagi is derived from Banbutsu Sōzō and it makes your existence subject to your will...imagine the same thing except with no limits...

There is a very real possibility that a true wielder of the Rinnegan cannot die unless they let it happen....:erm:

So Madara might already be invincible already, but I suspect Banbutsu Sōzō is very much subject to the users objective reality of what is or is not possible so Madara may not be aware of or able to use it to its full extent...basically he might lack imagination or some kind of enlightenment.