Hashirama Vs BSM Naruto Debate

TheUnbiasedOne

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MisterDoctorProfessor (Hashirama) Vs TheUnbiasedOne (BSM Naruto)

Location: Konoha Crater

Restrictions: Buhdda Statue (1000 Hands)

Starting Distance: 50 M

Mindset: In Character but Bloodlusted


We're here to revive the VS Coliseum
 

TRE MERCER

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Why didn't you put that in the title?
 

ARGUS

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Hashirama wins this but with SS restricted, Naruto has a shot
 

Demonic.

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Hashirama stomps that clown.
 

TheUnbiasedOne

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I'm using my phone so this won't be flashy and excuse typos.

First Let Me Start by Stating what I believe BSM Naruto tops Hashirama in.

  1. Destructive Capability
  2. Speed
  3. Stamina
  4. Defense Feats


Now I will acknowledge that even with these restrictions. Hashi's SM provides equal level sensing and he has higher versatility.
But I will say, in a battle, the above four matter most.


Now I will state how BSM Naruto can win the fight

  • BSM Starts tearing down Hashirama's wood constructs
  • BSM senses whatever barrier gates Hashirama summons and avoids them while quickly destroying his mokuton with Rasenshurikens
  • Hashirama pulls out his wood dragon, which Naruto responds to by pulling out his avatar, which matched Sasuke's "PS" in size and outclassed it completely in power from a distance.
  • Naruto destroys remaining woodstyle with TBB's and uses whatever remaining chakra he has to creates a blast, which can range from a BSM Rasengan to a TBB Rasengan. Anything in that range vaporizes Hashirama's body.
 

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Without the Shinsuusenju, Hashirama loses.
 

Kai NB

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I'm using my phone so this won't be flashy and excuse typos.

First Let Me Start by Stating what I believe BSM Naruto tops Hashirama in.


  1. Destructive Capability
  2. Speed
  3. Stamina
  4. Defense Feats


Now I will acknowledge that even with these restrictions. Hashi's SM provides equal level sensing and he has higher versatility.
But I will say, in a battle, the above four matter most.


Now I will state how BSM Naruto can win the fight

  • BSM Starts tearing down Hashirama's wood constructs
  • BSM senses whatever barrier gates Hashirama summons and avoids them while quickly destroying his mokuton with Rasenshurikens
  • Hashirama pulls out his wood dragon, which Naruto responds to by pulling out his avatar, which matched Sasuke's "PS" in size and outclassed it completely in power from a distance.
  • Naruto destroys remaining woodstyle with TBB's and uses whatever remaining chakra he has to creates a blast, which can range from a BSM Rasengan to a TBB Rasengan. Anything in that range vaporizes Hashirama's body.

Here's my view on the 4 important factors of a Battle:
  • Strength
  • Speed
  • Abilities
  • Stamina

I don't believe Destructive Capability is necessary, but how much control over power one has is.

We know nothing of Hashirama's Sage Mode, so we can simply assume that it is equal in terms of everything to Naruto's Frog Sage Mode. In essence, we can cancel out Sage Mode from both of them, but I won't.

Strength:
Naruto's Bijuu Mode is only 50% of what Kurama really can do. However, we know that Hashirama battled on par with a full 100% Kurama in the past against Madara, and only defeated him when resorting to Shin Susenju. This was also before Hashirama even activated Sage Mode. Meaning, Hashirama would be stronger in base form to base Bijuu Mode. Adding Sage Mode to both of them would give each the same power boost (Actually more to Hashirama since Senjutsu Chakra is directly proportional to base Chakra, which in this case Hashirama has more of) basically still placing Hashirama on top.

Winner - Hashirama

Speed:
I know nothing of Hashirama's speed feats. Although, we do know when Naruto first activated Bijuu Mode, Kakashi actually confused Naruto for Minato. Because Minato is praised as the fastest Shinobi of HIS time, we can say Naruto is as fast, if not faster, than Minato. Because we don't know if Hashirama is faster than Minato, let's assume Minato is faster. This does not mean Hashirama would not be able to keep up.

Winner - Naruto (Still Questionable)

Abilities:
Naruto's Abilities:
  • Rasengan
  • Rasen-Shuriken
  • Sage Mode
  • Shadow Clone Jutsu
  • Evil Intent Sense
  • Sage Mode Sense
  • Tailed Beast Ball
  • Tailed Beast Avatar
Hashirama's Abilities:
  • Wood-Style
  • Wood Dragon
  • Wood Golem
  • Wood Clone Jutsu
  • Earth-Style
  • Water-Style
  • Sage Mode
  • Sage Mode Sense
  • Automatic Healing (No Handseals)
It does not matter the amount of Abilities, but the efficiency of them. Both have Sage Mode and Clone Jutsu, so it is equally balanced between both. Hashirama has no evil in him (maybe Malicious intent since they are both bloodlusted) so that ability is rendered moot. Hashirama's Dragon and Golem each match Naruto's Tailed Beast Avatar, so Hashirama actually has the advantage. Also, considering Hashirama's Wood-Style can actually suppress Tailed Beast Chakra, Naruto would be at a major disadvantage. Naruto's Rasengan, Rasen-Shuriken, and Tailed Beast Ball would be managed by Hashirama's defensive Deep Forest Emergence.

Winner - Hashirama

Stamina:
Hashirama was able to hold on to a battle against Madara for a straight 24 hours. Also, Hashirama is able to heal himself so that he could continue to fight after an injury he may have received. Naruto can last at least 8 minutes in his Bijuu Mode (NOT his avatar, his entire Bijuu Mode). Although, Kurama can knead Chakra extremely fast and efficiently, though it takes a couple of minutes, so he may be safe. Arguably, Hashirama stands a better chance

Winner - Hashirama


Final Statement:
Though Naruto has an additional partner to assist him (Kurama), he can really only be used in the form of a tag team or a coach. When Hashirama first fought against Kurama, he was under the influence of Madara, so if he had his own mind, maybe the tides would have shifted. However, even if the mind of the Naruto changed, Kurama would still limited to the capabilities he already posses. So the only thing that would really change is his stye of fighting, which wouldn't change the outcome.

Hashirama Wins


If this was a conon fight though, Naruto (being the main character) would win thanks to Plot No Jutsu =D
 

TheUnbiasedOne

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Here's my view on the 4 important factors of a Battle:
  • Strength
  • Speed
  • Abilities
  • Stamina

I don't believe Destructive Capability is necessary, but how much control over power one has is.

We know nothing of Hashirama's Sage Mode, so we can simply assume that it is equal in terms of everything to Naruto's Frog Sage Mode. In essence, we can cancel out Sage Mode from both of them, but I won't.

Strength:
Naruto's Bijuu Mode is only 50% of what Kurama really can do. However, we know that Hashirama battled on par with a full 100% Kurama in the past against Madara, and only defeated him when resorting to Shin Susenju. This was also before Hashirama even activated Sage Mode. Meaning, Hashirama would be stronger in base form to base Bijuu Mode. Adding Sage Mode to both of them would give each the same power boost (Actually more to Hashirama since Senjutsu Chakra is directly proportional to base Chakra, which in this case Hashirama has more of) basically still placing Hashirama on top.

Winner - Hashirama
It has been stated in manga that bijuu are more powerful with Jins, and that was a kurama that would've been happy to leave Madara's control,
It can be argued that with that in hand, plus a human conscience, he isn't going to be easily suppressed. Secondly Naruto has been shown to heal from a chidori to the lungs in P1 so he won't be out down fast. Naruto easily has more power. If we're asking who can make a bigger crater, it's Naruto.

Speed:
I know nothing of Hashirama's speed feats. Although, we do know when Naruto first activated Bijuu Mode, Kakashi actually confused Naruto for Minato. Because Minato is praised as the fastest Shinobi of HIS time, we can say Naruto is as fast, if not faster, than Minato. Because we don't know if Hashirama is faster than Minato, let's assume Minato is faster. This does not mean Hashirama would not be able to keep up.

Winner - Naruto (Still Questionable)
Not at all debatable we have seen Hashirama run, and his speed wasn't exactly impressive.
Abilities:
Naruto's Abilities:
  • Rasengan
  • Rasen-Shuriken
  • Sage Mode
  • Shadow Clone Jutsu
  • Evil Intent Sense
  • Sage Mode Sense
  • Tailed Beast Ball
  • Tailed Beast Avatar
Hashirama's Abilities:
  • Wood-Style
  • Wood Dragon
  • Wood Golem
  • Wood Clone Jutsu
  • Earth-Style
  • Water-Style
  • Sage Mode
  • Sage Mode Sense
  • Automatic Healing (No Handseals)
Already stated
Naruto can heal and Hashirama has never been seen using earth or water style. That's the equivalent of giving Haku Fuuton. It's borderline fanfic
It does not matter the amount of Abilities, but the efficiency of them. Both have Sage Mode and Clone Jutsu, so it is equally balanced between both. Hashirama has no evil in him (maybe Malicious intent since they are both bloodlusted) so that ability is rendered moot. Hashirama's Dragon and Golem each match Naruto's Tailed Beast Avatar, so Hashirama actually has the advantage. Also, considering Hashirama's Wood-Style can actually suppress Tailed Beast Chakra, Naruto would be at a major disadvantage. Naruto's Rasengan, Rasen-Shuriken, and Tailed Beast Ball would be managed by Hashirama's defensive Deep Forest Emergence.

Winner - Hashirama
BSM move at speeds comparable to Juubi Jins. Hashirama can't keep up with him and to add on, his attacks are massive. He displays more control and destructive capability than any other Jin which does matter when referencing destroying mokuton
Stamina:
Hashirama was able to hold on to a battle against Madara for a straight 24 hours. Also, Hashirama is able to heal himself so that he could continue to fight after an injury he may have received. Naruto can last at least 8 minutes in his Bijuu Mode (NOT his avatar, his entire Bijuu Mode). Although, Kurama can knead Chakra extremely fast and efficiently, though it takes a couple of minutes, so he may be safe. Arguably, Hashirama stands a better chance

Winner - Hashirama
Eight minutes was during the fight with rinnegan Obito. He can use it longer. What you haven't mentioned is that no SM lasts forever. Also, KCM takes less time and can be used to keep up with Hashirama for small intervals. Hashirama is not going to destroy him within the five minutes it takes to power up. Even if was in base, he has speed and power to stay alive for a while.. And Naruto has chakra for days. He's been fighting for two days while giving chakra to the whole alliance. This is one battle no debater can win.



Final Statement:
Though Naruto has an additional partner to assist him (Kurama), he can really only be used in the form of a tag team or a coach. When Hashirama first fought against Kurama, he was under the influence of Madara, so if he had his own mind, maybe the tides would have shifted. However, even if the mind of the Naruto changed, Kurama would still limited to the capabilities he already posses. So the only thing that would really change is his stye of fighting, which wouldn't change the outcome.

Hashirama Wins
Sorry but you are basically saying naruto is but a vessel for Kurama.. He is comcentrating kurama's power and combining it with his blessed heritage and his sage mode and overall skills on his own merit, he is more powerful than restricted hashirama. This isn't just Kurama and Hashirama is restricted from using the one thing that saved him from Kurama and Madara last time: 1000 Hands.

MisterDoctorProfessor;16566457 [SPOILER said:
If this was a conon fight though, Naruto (being the main character) would win thanks to Plot No Jutsu =D[/SPOILER]
A bit of an irrelevant assumption

Sorry if this comes off cold hearted bro
 

Kai NB

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It has been stated in manga that bijuu are more powerful with Jins, and that was a kurama that would've been happy to leave Madara's control,

It can be argued that with that in hand, plus a human conscience, he isn't going to be easily suppressed.

Secondly Naruto has been shown to heal from a chidori to the lungs in P1 so he won't be out down fast. Naruto easily has more power.

If we're asking who can make a bigger crater, it's Naruto.


Not at all debatable we have seen Hashirama run, and his speed wasn't exactly impressive.

Already stated
Naruto can heal and Hashirama has never been seen using earth or water style. That's the equivalent of giving Haku Fuuton. It's borderline fanfic

BSM move at speeds comparable to Juubi Jins. Hashirama can't keep up with him and to add on, his attacks are massive.

He displays more control and destructive capability than any other Jin which does matter when referencing destroying mokuton

Eight minutes was during the fight with rinnegan Obito. He can use it longer. What you haven't mentioned is that no SM lasts forever. Also, KCM takes less time and can be used to keep up with Hashirama for small intervals. Hashirama is not going to destroy him within the five minutes it takes to power up.

Even if was in base, he has speed and power to stay alive for a while.. And Naruto has chakra for days. He's been fighting for two days while giving chakra to the whole alliance. This is one battle no debater can win.




Sorry but you are basically saying naruto is but a vessel for Kurama.. He is comcentrating kurama's power and combining it with his blessed heritage and his sage mode and overall skills on his own merit, he is more powerful than restricted hashirama.

This isn't just Kurama and Hashirama is restricted from using the one thing that saved him from Kurama and Madara last time: 1000 Hands.


A bit of an irrelevant assumption

Sorry if this comes off cold hearted bro

I'm going to refute the bold statements, so you keep count
1) That does not mean a boost in power giving him twice as much power. It just means the Bijuu can use their minds and focus themselves and energies. That's not going to make a 50% Kurama with his mind equal (you're saying stronger than) to a 100% Kurama with his mind controlled. At most, and I'm being generous, he might be at 80%.

2) When I say suppressed, I mean that Tailed Beast Chakra actually gets reduced thanks to Wood-Style. Yamato's technique to stop a Four-Tailed Naruto Transformation, and put Naruto back to normal and asleep also. That's basically what Hashirama can do, but you know, can do to a full Tailed Beast

3) Hashirama can heal his wounds without Hand Signs, basically the same thing. We don't know the specifics, but Madara compared Tsunade's Byakago technique to Hashirama's healing, so yes Hashirama can definitely heal organs and body parts too. (Because Tsunade did) Meaning, Hashirama would be just as difficult to take down

4) Refer to number 1 please

5) We actually haven't. Like we see dashes, but that's not anything. Also, if you want to involve reflexes, Hashirama is also a master of Sage Mode, so yeah his senses are just as acute as Naruto's.

6) Do you know the Elements required to utilize Wood Style... :stuff:

7) If Sasuke also managed to keep up with Juubito before his powerup, then I think a non Jinchuuriki as strong as a Tailed Beast (ahem *Hashirama*) can also keep up with Juubito, and as such, can keep up with Naruto.

8) Refer to 1 Again. If Hashirama can handle a 100% Kurama with his Mokuton with only a little difficulty, he can handle 50% Kurama with his conscience.

9)This hasn't been proven. But, lets say the time is tripled (reasonable right) thats still only 25 minutes. Hashi lasted a day. And if no SM lasts forever, then Naruto's would run out like Hashi's. Base Hashi stronger than (Refer to 1 again) 100% Kurama, if Naruto's Sage Mode ended, he would be at an even further disadvantage. KCM truly is minuscule. You saw how it was mid difficult for Naruto as KCM to defeat the Four-Tails (Who was suppressed). If 50% BM Kurama can equal in power the combined forces of 2,3,5,6,and 7 tails, than KCM (who is let's say 6 tail strength) is just pathetic in this case. BECAUSE Hashi stronger (refer to 1)

10) This was his KCM. That is a fraction of Kurama's 50% chakra reservoir. It's not like he was actually spending much when you think about it. And, it's only been 1 day. He arrived on the battlefield, defeated all the Zetsus and a few Edo's and went to Obito and Madara on the same day. It's been less than. Maybe 12 hours so far

11)He is a vessel. But it doesn't matter, because he can't concentrate the power to double his strength (refer to 1) Also, Hash also has Sage Mode. Overall Skills? You mean the 8 techniques he possesses. 3 of which exist only thanks to Kurama

12) A 100% KURAMA! NOT A 50% PERCENT ONE! Sorry, I mean please refer to 1

Sorry if this comes off cold hearted bro
Haha, seriously no hard feelings
 
Last edited:

TheUnbiasedOne

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I'm going to refute the bold statements, so you keep count
1) That does not mean a boost in power giving him twice as much power. It just means the Bijuu can use their minds and focus themselves and energies. That's not going to make a 50% Kurama with his mind equal (you're saying stronger than) to a 100% Kurama with his mind controlled. At most, and I'm being generous, he might be at 80%.

2) When I say suppressed, I mean that Tailed Beast Chakra actually gets reduced thanks to Wood-Style. Yamato's technique to stop a Four-Tailed Naruto Transformation, and put Naruto back to normal and asleep also. That's basically what Hashirama can do, but you know, can do to a full Tailed Beast

3) Hashirama can heal his wounds without Hand Signs, basically the same thing. We don't know the specifics, but Madara compared Tsunade's Byakago technique to Hashirama's healing, so yes Hashirama can definitely heal organs and body parts too. (Because Tsunade did) Meaning, Hashirama would be just as difficult to take down

4) Refer to number 1 please

5) We actually haven't. Like we see dashes, but that's not anything. Also, if you want to involve reflexes, Hashirama is also a master of Sage Mode, so yeah his senses are just as acute as Naruto's.

6) Do you know the Elements required to utilize Wood Style... :stuff:

7) If Sasuke also managed to keep up with Juubito before his powerup, then I think a non Jinchuuriki as strong as a Tailed Beast (ahem *Hashirama*) can also keep up with Juubito, and as such, can keep up with Naruto.

8) Refer to 1 Again. If Hashirama can handle a 100% Kurama with his Mokuton with only a little difficulty, he can handle 50% Kurama with his conscience.

9)This hasn't been proven. But, lets say the time is tripled (reasonable right) thats still only 25 minutes. Hashi lasted a day. And if no SM lasts forever, then Naruto's would run out like Hashi's. Base Hashi stronger than (Refer to 1 again) 100% Kurama, if Naruto's Sage Mode ended, he would be at an even further disadvantage. KCM truly is minuscule. You saw how it was mid difficult for Naruto as KCM to defeat the Four-Tails (Who was suppressed). If 50% BM Kurama can equal in power the combined forces of 2,3,5,6,and 7 tails, than KCM (who is let's say 6 tail strength) is just pathetic in this case. BECAUSE Hashi stronger (refer to 1)

10) This was his KCM. That is a fraction of Kurama's 50% chakra reservoir. It's not like he was actually spending much when you think about it. And, it's only been 1 day. He arrived on the battlefield, defeated all the Zetsus and a few Edo's and went to Obito and Madara on the same day. It's been less than. Maybe 12 hours so far

11)He is a vessel. But it doesn't matter, because he can't concentrate the power to double his strength (refer to 1) Also, Hash also has Sage Mode. Overall Skills? You mean the 8 techniques he possesses. 3 of which exist only thanks to Kurama

12) A 100% KURAMA! NOT A 50% PERCENT ONE! Sorry, I mean please refer to 1

Sorry if this comes off cold hearted bro
Haha, seriously no hard feelings

Not much time so I'll just counter those

1) a bite of Kurama was enough to make Gin and Kin Tobirama level. And Hashirama in SM suppressing Kurama is not the same as fighting a sane Kurama inside of a skilled ninja's body. You are acting as if naruto is weak without Kurama when SM Naruto which soloed the 3rd Raikage doesn't use Kurama. You're debating Hashirama VS Naruto not Hashirama VS Naruto.

2) you have to first subdue and restrain the beast, which is not nearly as fast and nimble as Naruto. You also are ignoring the fact that a Kurama would've mauled him if not for 1000 Hands.

3) Irrelevant because they both have this same ability although, note that hashirama's is hype, where naruto's is feats.

4) What I said is true. Without 1000 hands (Buhdda), even Sakura has more destructive capability than him, which does matter if you want to catch naruto in an attack.

5) No way Hashirama is faster than Madara and there's no way either of them are faster than BM, let alone BSM. Let it go or show a speed feat. Naruto works at a faster rate than an Alive Hashirama can make mokuton constructs..

6) Can Haku use wind and water? Can Onōki use fire style or wind style? Can Mei use earth style or fire Style?

7) V1 Juubito ran through him so fast.. Naruto amd Sasuke are Faster than hashirama, so he couldn't keep up with either of them. Sensing means nothing if you can't keep up with their movements.

8) Refer to one. You still haven't countered my scenarios in the opener. No way he keeps up with him. Kurama and naruto are two different fighters.

9) Thanks for pointing it out. No one other than current Sasuke , Hagoromo's family, and One who possesses the rinnegan can replicate the feat of overwhelming the TBB of five bijuu. And KCM was keeping up with them so your point is invalid. All you prove is Hashirama doesn't have the destrucrtive capability to take Naruto down. Other than suppressing him which won't work on BSM Naruto. Tell me how he Kills him

10) Two days man don't deny it look the war up on The wiki

11) He has sage mode and his own jutsu. He isn't just a vessel.

12) BSM NARUTO NOT KURAMA!!!!

good job bro
 
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Kai NB

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I realized that I never subscribed to the thread, so I never knew this continued :sweat::sweat::sweat::sweat:

Also, I can't right now, but I'll try to post later
 

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Hashirama would win this, med-diff at the most.
 
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