Hashirama is the only Hokage who meets Ninshu's standards.

KingHashirama

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Hashirama really only did those things to prevent conflict. thats not all of what ninshuu is about.
^^^^ Read his go Gokage meeting speech, that is what ninshuu is about. Bro he is the kindest guy in the show. He lets people like Tobirama and others walk over him all the time when he talks. lol. He was trying to connect people together, trying to unite ninja.. something rikudou tried to do with ninshuu ;p


Tobirama aside, none of the other Hokage would gladly kill or sacrifice others to fit a determined purpose. Hell, one is all piece and love (Hiruzen) and the other even dedicates herself to save lives, not take them (Tsunade).
^^^^^^ I don't think you understand what he is talking about. It hurts Hashirama when he has to kill people.. whether its the enemy.. whoever.

Also for Hiruzen.. already forgetting him not doing shit about Danzo? rofl. Deaths were happening everywhere.. and already forgot the uchiha clan massacre?
 

Kamui Sama

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eradicating your own clan is not part of ninshuu no matter the reason Lol
 

RicardoA

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I don't think you understand what he is talking about. It hurts Hashirama when he has to kill people.. whether its the enemy.. whoever.

Also for Hiruzen.. already forgetting him not doing shit about Danzo? rofl. Deaths were happening everywhere.. and already forgot the uchiha clan massacre?

Are you implying Hiruzen, Minato and Tsunade like to kill or simply don't care when they have to or should? Just because Hashirama's sympathy towards everyone else (including his greatest enemy) is more emphasized, it doesn't mean the others are completely ok with it.
If he kills, then at the end of the day he's not so different than the rest of the Hokage because their reasons are similar.
I also don't remember Hashirama feeling so hurt after killing at all ._. After he 'killed' Madara he seemed more like he was relieved after freeing his friend and at the same time accomplished for protecting Konoha, not depressed. This is how it seems to me mostly (not saying he wasn't sad, careful).
Main point being, being sentimental and stuff doesn't make him any more of a saint than his peers.

Hiruzen having a lenient, passive and peaceful method of rulling doesn't make him an heartless geezer, now does it? He had too much love to share, that's the problem.
 
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KingHashirama

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Are you implying Hiruzen, Minato and Tsunade like to kill or simply don't care when they have to or should? Just because Hashirama's sympathy towards everyone else (including his greatest enemy) is more emphasized, it doesn't mean the others are completely ok with it.
If he kills, then at the end of the day he's not so different than the rest of the Hokage because their reasons are similar.
I also don't remember Hashirama feeling so hurt after killing at all ._. After he 'killed' Madara he seemed more like he was relieved after freeing his friend and at the same time accomplished for protecting Konoha, not depressed. This is how it seems to me mostly (not saying he wasn't sad, careful).
Main point being, being sentimental and stuff doesn't make him any more of a saint than his peers.

Hiruzen having a lenient, passive and peaceful method of rulling doesn't make him an heartless geezer, now does it? He had too much love to share, that's the problem.
-sigh-. Tsunade doesn't care if she kills the enemy.....

Minato was killing people without blinking... he is more of a "doing my job" ninja similar to Itachi.

Tobirama just showed he would sacrifice people for the purpose of attaining info..


Don't even get me started on Hiruzen.... letting konoha people be used.. experimented..

The point of the thread is that, none of them are as kind and compassionate as Hashirama... not even the main character.


You are comparing 4 ninja who did it for the village, to a guy who did it for the sake of uniting the world.
 

lanakui8

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.....he attempted to kill his best friend, and thought he did for the sake of the village:

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and nothing implied hashirama didn't kill shinobi throughout the wars he fought.
 

XY iNVeRSe

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well i disagree with u right there, but i dont want to get into this okay?

he's not ninshuu material. he tried to do everything on his own. he couldn't even connect with his clan. but yeah..
 

XY iNVeRSe

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.....he attempted to kill his best friend, and thought he did for the sake of the village:

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and nothing implied hashirama didn't kill shinobi throughout the wars he fought.

if madara used izanagi right there, he would've won that fight...

and hashirama killed madara for his village and for the shinobi world. he wanted peace.
 

XY iNVeRSe

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-sigh-. Tsunade doesn't care if she kills the enemy.....

Minato was killing people without blinking... he is more of a "doing my job" ninja similar to Itachi.

Tobirama just showed he would sacrifice people for the purpose of attaining info..


Don't even get me started on Hiruzen.... letting konoha people be used.. experimented..

The point of the thread is that, none of them are as kind and compassionate as Hashirama... not even the main character.


You are comparing 4 ninja who did it for the village, to a guy who did it for the sake of uniting the world.

1. she even thought hashi was a loser. tsna isn't ninshuu material.
2. he killed thousands..
3. tobirama gives no f*cks
4. he was a softy, encouraged danzo on letting oro do experiments
5. Hashirama is ninshuu material.
 

lanakui8

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if madara used izanagi right there, he would've won that fight...
why didn't he then? His goal was to take hashirama's cells, killing hashirama and taking back his entire body would be much better than just taking a chunk of it with him.

Danzou's chakra levels took a massive dip each time he used izanagi, madara was so pooped that he couldn't even activate his sharingan so I doubt he could have even used izanagi then. What probably happened is madara prepped his izanagi before he even fought Hashi at VoTe.

and hashirama killed madara for his village and for the shinobi world. he wanted peace.
sure, just like tobirama wanted to sacrifice a person for edo tensei in order to help naruto and sasuke and the shinobi world, because he too wanted peace.
 

romeboii

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He is the only hokage who will not kill or carelessly sacrifice another's life. We have seen Minato massacre fodder shinobi to win wars and Tobirama is willing to sacrifice living innocent people to further his own battle power. Tsunade and Hiruzen no explanation needed.

Hashirama will kill anyone for the sake of the village he even told madara that he may be a kind person but he will do what needs to be done he just wont hold malice toward anyone
 

romeboii

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if madara used izanagi right there, he would've won that fight...

and hashirama killed madara for his village and for the shinobi world. he wanted peace.

He didnt have enough chakra at that point madara said hashirama could stop him that is not the first time he lost to him either
 

RicardoA

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-sigh-. Tsunade doesn't care if she kills the enemy.....

Minato was killing people without blinking... he is more of a "doing my job" ninja similar to Itachi.

Tobirama just showed he would sacrifice people for the purpose of attaining info..


Don't even get me started on Hiruzen.... letting konoha people be used.. experimented..

The point of the thread is that, none of them are as kind and compassionate as Hashirama... not even the main character.


You are comparing 4 ninja who did it for the village, to a guy who did it for the sake of uniting the world.

And Hashirama cares about fodders? I need some links here, because IIRC, he only showed compassion towards Madara, whom he never considered an enemy until he threatened the village. And after killing him the feelings weren't necessarily of sadness.
There's no word written on Hashirama caring as much about anyone else as he cared for Madara.

Wut? Tobirama is by far the most militant of the Hokage. He would kill anyone who posed the slightest threat faster than any other ruler of Konoha.
He doesn't sacrifice others for info ._. experimenting on the dead is not sacrificing. On the other hand, he doesn't care about sacrificing others for his brilliant ET which causes more problems than it solves.

Lol no. Orochimaru experimented on children and stopped doing it in the village the moment Hiruzen knew about this.
I still don't see where don't taking enough action translates into evil deeds. He was all about diplomacy and loving his village. His funeral was crowded for a reason.
How you deny all these determining aspects of Hiruzen's character but type about Hashirama like he's some saint is beyhond me. Attempting to demonize Hiruzen doesn't make Hashirama look better.

Whether they're as compassionate as Hashirama is debatable save a few. The op justified his choice with a reason that can also apply to the other Hokage, hence my initial answer to this thread.

Did what for the world? He killed Madara for the sake of the village, not the world. The only thing he did that would have effect on a global scale would be starting the first kage summit. The Gokage also agreed on uniting for the sake of the world, that doesn't make them practitioners of Ninshuu.
He killed for the same reasons as his successors, he's no better than them and all of them felt remorse one way or another. Do you think they enjoyed killing and being in constant war? Having their loved ones in constant danger?
If he didn't kill he wouldn't be the true shinobi he is, he wouldn't have endured. That's something he should earn respect for, therefore i don't see why is this so hard to accept >_>
 
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Xāvî1

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He is the only hokage who will not kill or carelessly sacrifice another's life. We have seen Minato massacre fodder shinobi to win wars and Tobirama is willing to sacrifice living innocent people to further his own battle power. Tsunade and Hiruzen no explanation needed.

So does naruto!
 

KingHashirama

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And Hashirama cares about fodders? I need some links here, because IIRC, he only showed compassion towards Madara, whom he never considered an enemy until he threatened the village. And after killing him the feelings weren't necessarily of sadness.
There's no word written on Hashirama caring as much about anyone else as he cared for Madara.

Wut? Tobirama is by far the most militant of the Hokage. He would kill anyone who posed the slightest threat faster than any other ruler of Konoha.
He doesn't sacrifice others for info ._. experimenting on the dead is not sacrificing. On the other hand, he doesn't care about sacrificing others for his brilliant ET which causes more problems than it solves.

Lol no. Orochimaru experimented on children and stopped doing it in the village the moment Hiruzen knew about this.
I still don't see where don't taking enough action translates into evil deeds. He was all about diplomacy and loving his village. His funeral was crowded for a reason.
How you deny all these determining aspects of Hiruzen's character but type about Hashirama like he's some saint is beyhond me. Attempting to demonize Hiruzen doesn't make Hashirama look better.

Whether they're as compassionate as Hashirama is debatable save a few. The op justified his choice with a reason that can also apply to the other Hokage, hence my initial answer to this thread.

Did what for the world? He killed Madara for the sake of the village, not the world. The only thing he did that would have effect on a global scale would be starting the first kage summit. The Gokage also agreed on uniting for the sake of the world, that doesn't make them practitioners of Ninshuu.
He killed for the same reasons as his successors, he's no better than them and all of them felt remorse one way or another. Do you think they enjoyed killing and being in constant war? Having their loved ones in constant danger?
If he didn't kill he wouldn't be the true shinobi he is, he wouldn't have endured. That's something he should earn respect for, therefore i don't see why is this so hard to accept >_>
Since you want people to accept... tell us what you want us to accept. Is anyone saying others aren't kind? Is anyone saying others don't feel remorse? Is anyone saying Hashirama didn't kill? you and the others who are getting defensive are the only ones who feel that way. No we are saying Hashirama's is more compassionate then all of them<<< something noted about him even by the sage of the 6 paths.... He is more kind than Naruto also.


Stop being so defensive that you are blind to that argument at hand and the discussion.

Since you want to act knowledgable right, then lets take you to Naruto school.

1. What you said about Tobirama is pointless since you end up saying the samething as I did... anything new? no..

2. It still went on, Hiruzen was suspicious about this yet didn't take action on it. When he saw that person in front of him he froze from fear or shock and lets him go. Furthermore, he is also the one responsible for the death of Neji's father. Even more, he let Danzo roam free, while knowing all the bullshit that happened in the ROOT, with the kids.. he kept an blind eye to that.. even admit it himself. Due to his ignorance, the most terrible crisis in the leaf's history happened... the uchiha clan massacre. His funeral was crowded because he was the Hokage.. just like Tobirama was hailed as the best shinobi along with hashirama.. and not Hiruzen. o_O . He was all about diplomacy and loving... cool. However, that does not make one compassionate.. and kind compared to others.. The question here isn't if Hiruzen is kind... the question here is compared to Hashirama is he compassionate and kind and caring?

3. Lets teach you stuff about Hashirama, that you obviously failed to read in the manga.

- His dream was the unification of the shinobi world. Do you deny this?

- He created the village, to stop an end to an era where kids were raised in war and the average life span was 30 years old.

- He forgave the many clans, and was the one to extend out his hand to them. (now you'll try to counter with the bs crap about others forgiving him also.. naw duh. Point is he was the first one to do it.)


- He tried to make his clan's ex-arch enemy, the Hokage, because he believe that Madara would watch the village like they were his own brothers and sisters.

- And also, you talked about the Gokage.. whats funny is that it took Hashirama the bribery of the tailed beasts to bring the other 4 together in one place.. yet you wanna spout crap about them being the same as Hashirama in this aspect? what?

- Vote fight, in that entire fight, Hashirama was trying to change Madara.. yet Madara wouldn't change. Madara showed he had fallen too low, when he stabbed the wood clone in the end, and didn't care about if Hashirama was dying.. he showed he didn't care about what his brothers (he counted the uchiha as his brothers and all those in the village) and comrades their lives for... aka the village. If the village of konoha were to fall, what example does that set for the rest of the world who were starting out their hidden villages in replication of konoha? So of course he would kill Madara for the village, because the village meant shinobi.

- Also you said something about him not caring about fodders.. this must be a joke.

VVVVVv already forgot this moment when he was a kid?
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You must be registered for see images

You know its even more funny.. when he was even willing to give up his own life for the "fodders" to live in peace together
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And where do you think the sacrifice for an edo madara would've had to come from? oh yes a "fodder".. fodders that according to you Hashirama doesn't care about... but clearly he would keep that "fodder" alive over edoing Madara

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RicardoA

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Since you want people to accept... tell us what you want us to accept. Is anyone saying others aren't kind? Is anyone saying others don't feel remorse? Is anyone saying Hashirama didn't kill? you and the others who are getting defensive are the only ones who feel that way. No we are saying Hashirama's is more compassionate then all of them<<< something noted about him even by the sage of the 6 paths.... He is more kind than Naruto also.


Stop being so defensive that you are blind to that argument at hand and the discussion.

Since you want to act knowledgable right, then lets take you to Naruto school.

1. What you said about Tobirama is pointless since you end up saying the samething as I did... anything new? no..

2. It still went on, Hiruzen was suspicious about this yet didn't take action on it. When he saw that person in front of him he froze from fear or shock and lets him go. Furthermore, he is also the one responsible for the death of Neji's father. Even more, he let Danzo roam free, while knowing all the bullshit that happened in the ROOT, with the kids.. he kept an blind eye to that.. even admit it himself. Due to his ignorance, the most terrible crisis in the leaf's history happened... the uchiha clan massacre. His funeral was crowded because he was the Hokage.. just like Tobirama was hailed as the best shinobi along with hashirama.. and not Hiruzen. o_O . He was all about diplomacy and loving... cool. However, that does not make one compassionate.. and kind compared to others.. The question here isn't if Hiruzen is kind... the question here is compared to Hashirama is he compassionate and kind and caring?

3. Lets teach you stuff about Hashirama, that you obviously failed to read in the manga.

- His dream was the unification of the shinobi world. Do you deny this?

- He created the village, to stop an end to an era where kids were raised in war and the average life span was 30 years old.

- He forgave the many clans, and was the one to extend out his hand to them. (now you'll try to counter with the bs crap about others forgiving him also.. naw duh. Point is he was the first one to do it.)


- He tried to make his clan's ex-arch enemy, the Hokage, because he believe that Madara would watch the village like they were his own brothers and sisters.

- And also, you talked about the Gokage.. whats funny is that it took Hashirama the bribery of the tailed beasts to bring the other 4 together in one place.. yet you wanna spout crap about them being the same as Hashirama in this aspect? what?

- Vote fight, in that entire fight, Hashirama was trying to change Madara.. yet Madara wouldn't change. Madara showed he had fallen too low, when he stabbed the wood clone in the end, and didn't care about if Hashirama was dying.. he showed he didn't care about what his brothers (he counted the uchiha as his brothers and all those in the village) and comrades their lives for... aka the village. If the village of konoha were to fall, what example does that set for the rest of the world who were starting out their hidden villages in replication of konoha? So of course he would kill Madara for the village, because the village meant shinobi.

- Also you said something about him not caring about fodders.. this must be a joke.

VVVVVv already forgot this moment when he was a kid?
You must be registered for see images


You must be registered for see images

You know its even more funny.. when he was even willing to give up his own life for the "fodders" to live in peace together
You must be registered for see images


And where do you think the sacrifice for an edo madara would've had to come from? oh yes a "fodder".. fodders that according to you Hashirama doesn't care about... but clearly he would keep that "fodder" alive over edoing Madara

You must be registered for see images

Hagoromo simply made a remark on his kindness, he didn't compare him to the others. He only confirmed the obvious.

I'm not defensive o_O

Since when was he suspicious and didn't investigate? As far as the manga shows, Hiruzen took immediate action when he knew the source behind all the disappearances. He let Orochimaru go because he cared too much about him and couldn't bring himself to kill him. Hashirama on the other hand didn't have much trouble doing it to Madara after a while.
No. Hizashi died because of his own free will in order to keep the peace between Konoha and Kumo. Hiruzen did well in respecting his wishes and let him die a true shinobi.
He left for Danzo what his indulgence wouldn't allow him to do, but was still necessary. The problem with Danzo was that he took his job a little bit too seriously. By 'kids' i believe you're referring to the root's training? Those 'kids' are no different than those who train in the academy, except their training makes them more efficient and better prepared for a life of endurance. I don't see what's so weird about that. That's got to do with Danzo, not Hiruzen.
The massacre happened because of Danzo's doing and Itachi trying to solve everything on his own. Its known that he attempted a peaceful negotiation. Again, you're blaming Hiruzen on something that he couldn't control or has nothing to do with him.

No i don't. He wasn't the only one who wanted world peace though >_>

That makes him a visionary and an accomplished shinobi. He wasn't the only one tired of war.

He was willing to cooperate with the Uchiha whom he never really saw as true enemies. He was able to understand both sides of the coin and that's what made him special and influential during his era.

He tried to make his best friend the Hokage because he's a humble man and shinobi, and had faith in him.

I meant the current Gokage. Yes, they formed an Alliance because it was the only way to compete. The truth is that meanwhile they set differences aside, cooperated and ended up caring for each other as comrades.

At the end of the day, he killed for the same reason as the other Hokage. Madara being consumed by the darkness is not what's being questioned here, the point is that he isn't so different than the rest of the carriers of the will of fire.

He still killed fodders without hesitating while Madara was allowed to live for many years. There's a difference.
He still did what had to be done at the end of day like any other Hokage.

Any respectable shinobi is ready to die for something bigger. What Hashirama was ready to do is only notable because of the typical shonen protagonist foolishness involved.

He cares about them as much as any other Hokage. He let people die under his watch and reign as well (killed by himself as well), yet, unlike Hiruzen, i don't see him being blamed for it (not saying he should, just that this attempt to canonize Hashirama is weird and i don't think it flatters his character at all).


^ All that endless discussion is irrelevant if we don't look at the subject of this thread (whether or not Hashirama meets the standards of Ninshuu). ^
Simply put, Ninshuu is supposed to connect people, bring them together and promote peace.
Hashirama uses the weaponized version (ninjutsu) to harm and even gave weapons (Bijuu) to each and every village in order to establish a false feeling of balance and peace.
His intentions might be good, but his actions and use of chakra are not Ninshuu like at all. The only characters other than Hagoromo who used something that can be considered Ninshuu are Naruto, when he shared his chakra with everyone during the war, and Ino, with her Mind Body Transmission Jutsu.
 

KingHashirama

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Hagoromo simply made a remark on his kindness, he didn't compare him to the others. He only confirmed the obvious.

I'm not defensive o_O

Since when was he suspicious and didn't investigate? As far as the manga shows, Hiruzen took immediate action when he knew the source behind all the disappearances. He let Orochimaru go because he cared too much about him and couldn't bring himself to kill him. Hashirama on the other hand didn't have much trouble doing it to Madara after a while.
No. Hizashi died because of his own free will in order to keep the peace between Konoha and Kumo. Hiruzen did well in respecting his wishes and let him die a true shinobi.
He left for Danzo what his indulgence wouldn't allow him to do, but was still necessary. The problem with Danzo was that he took his job a little bit too seriously. By 'kids' i believe you're referring to the root's training? Those 'kids' are no different than those who train in the academy, except their training makes them more efficient and better prepared for a life of endurance. I don't see what's so weird about that. That's got to do with Danzo, not Hiruzen.
The massacre happened because of Danzo's doing and Itachi trying to solve everything on his own. Its known that he attempted a peaceful negotiation. Again, you're blaming Hiruzen on something that he couldn't control or has nothing to do with him.

No i don't. He wasn't the only one who wanted world peace though >_>

That makes him a visionary and an accomplished shinobi. He wasn't the only one tired of war.

He was willing to cooperate with the Uchiha whom he never really saw as true enemies. He was able to understand both sides of the coin and that's what made him special and influential during his era.

He tried to make his best friend the Hokage because he's a humble man and shinobi, and had faith in him.

I meant the current Gokage. Yes, they formed an Alliance because it was the only way to compete. The truth is that meanwhile they set differences aside, cooperated and ended up caring for each other as comrades.

At the end of the day, he killed for the same reason as the other Hokage. Madara being consumed by the darkness is not what's being questioned here, the point is that he isn't so different than the rest of the carriers of the will of fire.

He still killed fodders without hesitating while Madara was allowed to live for many years. There's a difference.
He still did what had to be done at the end of day like any other Hokage.

Any respectable shinobi is ready to die for something bigger. What Hashirama was ready to do is only notable because of the typical shonen protagonist foolishness involved.

He cares about them as much as any other Hokage. He let people die under his watch and reign as well (killed by himself as well), yet, unlike Hiruzen, i don't see him being blamed for it (not saying he should, just that this attempt to canonize Hashirama is weird and i don't think it flatters his character at all).


^ All that endless discussion is irrelevant if we don't look at the subject of this thread (whether or not Hashirama meets the standards of Ninshuu). ^
Simply put, Ninshuu is supposed to connect people, bring them together and promote peace.
Hashirama uses the weaponized version (ninjutsu) to harm and even gave weapons (Bijuu) to each and every village in order to establish a false feeling of balance and peace.
His intentions might be good, but his actions and use of chakra are not Ninshuu like at all. The only characters other than Hagoromo who used something that can be considered Ninshuu are Naruto, when he shared his chakra with everyone during the war, and Ino, with her Mind Body Transmission Jutsu.
See here is the thing you are calling him everything besides what the op stated... yet everything you are calling him has to do with him being the most compassionate.

- Rikudou calls him a "VERY" kind person.. no one else.. not even Naruto.

- Hashirama portrays or represents the Senju kannon, the god/godess of compassion and mercy.


Also who did he let die under his REIGN and watch? o_O... during his reign there was peace.....

Here is the problem, you are making excuses, you are trying to deny what Hashirama is..... Ninshuu was created to unite people, and bring them closer. VILLAGE was created to unite people, and bring closer.

- Did Tsunade focus on the world, or the village? the village

- Did Hiruzen focus on the world or the village? the village

- Did Minato focus on the world or the village? the village

^^^^^^^^^^ There is a reason why Hashirama was the first Hokage.. there is a reason why he was the god of shinobi. Sure you can bring Hiruzen into this.. only problem is the God of Shinobi title.. Hiruzen doesn't have it anymore.. once he did.. but not anymore.



"every respectable shinobi is ready to die for a bigger cause"... good for them.. rofl. i don't give a **** about that.

And show me who else wanted world peace? Who else endured like him to attain world peace? No one.


Also, your defenses are getting pathetic. Hizashi died, because the Hyuuga clan was asked by the mother****ing Hokage, to give 1 Hyuuga sacrifice. Hizashi for the love of his brother chose himself to go there. <<<< Everything here was the Raikage and Hokage's fault.

"those kids are no different than who train at the academy"... yea because in the academy, they tell you to become a emotionless kid, who has no past and nothing what so ever. right?


Bro you are all over the places.. trying to counter the OP yet you are failing to do so, because Hashirama is the only one liable for the title of Ninshuu.. the mere fact Ashura chose to reincarnate into him.. already puts him above the other Hokage.

Sadly you have provided no facts or manga, scans to make your point on there are others just like Hashirama.
 
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