Hashirama and Tobirama Gauntlet

[Veggie the Tormentor]

I'll make my points simple, quick, and in bullets then. I'll just use Hashirama. I don't care about your odd belief that Edo Tensei part 1 Hashirama and Tobirama weren't weak. I'll go with it, so you can't get away from the actual argument of this topic or how embarrassing this is. I'm not picking apart every line of what you said like Kid. I don't use manga scans and don't need to.

• Hashirama questions
• Why would a direct hit reject a body? A direct hit or kill isn't rejecting their body. Their physical stats are copied until they die. Thus, whatever Hashirama can normally survive from with Senju cells (as in anything), the copied body will survive from. I don't even know where you got the opposite logic, honestly.
• Hashirama doesn't need normal sensing. His Wood Clones have telepathy.
• Wood Clones do not take 30 percent of one's chakra. Wood Clones are not Shadow Clones.
• Hashirama didn't have Sage Mode to use against every tomoe 3 Uchiha. How did he deal with surprise attacks? Any way you put it, it comes down to speed.
• Because Hashirama has clones, he can use jutsu faster and with more frequency than anybody who doesn't have clones or higher chakra in this topic. Kakuzu cannot keep up even if you pretend he didn't get blitzed by chuunin during the war. Hashirama's kept up with top-tiers and Kakuzu had trouble with base Naruto.
• Hashirama has higher chakra by a lot here than anybody else, except A. He can make his jutsu more durable and stronger, despite whatever their form may be. He can wait out his opponent and they can't spam.

Spoiler

• How is A taking down Hashirama? Hashirama's shown reaction speed to Madara, Juubi Jinchuuriki, and others. Hashirama can sense him. Hashirama has healing.
• How is Onoki taking down Hashirama? Hashirama doesn't need to go after Onoki flying in the air. Onoki won't find Hashirama underground. There's nothing Onoki can do to pursue a victory, as he's not fast enough to blitz at the beginning.
• How is Mei taking down Hashirama? Again, there's nothing stopping him from going underground, sending clones, and taking down her reserves slowly.
• How is Gaara taking down Hashirama? Wood Release can grow on top of the sand if Gaara tries to defend himself. Gaara's shown to be taken down by pollen. Sand won't find Hashirama underground with Hashirama having actual sensing in 2 different ways.
• How is Kakuzu taking down Hashirama? Again, Kakuzu can do nothing to stop Hashirama from just going underground. Kakuzu's Wind Release has been dodged by Kakashi and Naruto also dodged elemental attacks of Kakuzu, I believe? Kakuzu can be carried away and suffocated by Wood Release going inside him if necessary. If not that, he'll run out of chakra defending himself, or he won't even see a Wood Release attack coming. He doesn't have sensory and he can't watch himself 24/7. Blasting away Wood Release won't work. Wood Release forms faster and is used anywhere. The masks can't cover every side of Kakuzu. The attacks of Kakuzu have weaker destructive feats. Kakuzu got blitzed by chuunin during the war, remember? Tenten took out one of his masks as well, remember?
• How is Itachi taking down Hashirama? It's generally accepted that Hashirama isn't getting beaten by genjutsu with how many Uchiha he's faced, but he can just have a clone take him out of one, or hurt himself with some easy to use Wood Release that requires no hand seals. Susanoo doesn't protect Itachi from Wood Release spawning from under him. Itachi's fast, but Wood Release would be everywhere. Wood Clones outlast Itachi.
• How is Kisame taking down Hashirama? Hashirama can change the land and just bury Kisame without letting him absorb anything, giving the benefit of the doubt that he can even absorb Wood Release. Even then, Wood Release would spawn all around him, and it would be faster than him. He can't see the pollen, either. Wood Release literally wraps around his arm and slices it off.
• How is Sasori taking down Hashirama? All of the puppets have no defense from getting their strings detached. Sasori would have no way to find Hashirama underground. Hashirama likely can just grow Wood Release inside Sasori.
• How is Deidara taking down Hashirama? Hashirama can make projectiles that will take down explosions before they hit. Molecular damage is noticed on body, healed, and escaped from. Wood Clones take the damage first and warn him. Deidara can't get him underground without wasting chakra and even then simply won't, as that biggest explosion will be caught in mid-air like with Gaara. Hashirama's Wood Release has shown more durability to Deidara's firepower. There's nothing stopping Wood Release from appearing under Deidara before he makes his clay bird, which isn't made instantly, and isn't taking off instantly with the need to flap the wings on it.
• Air speed and takeoff speed isn't the same. Comparing Gaara to Deidara isn't the same.
• Wood Release can just spawn on the bird. Buddha is spawned in midair and the canon description is that it can spawn anywhere.
• Hashirama caught Juubito with his branches. Gaara's sand needs to be in a place already to attack. Hashirama forms his attack anywhere.
• How is Danzo taking down Hashirama? Exhausted Sasuke escaped the sealing jutsu and Tobi had time to warn him. Hashirama himself doesn't need to be the one that finishes off Danzo. Curse seals paralyzing him are fissioned off by wood coming out of his body, or a clone gets hit. Hashirama can sense spawning or a clone will warn with telepathy. Wood Release is all around him and can form anywhere to counter Danzo spawning in a "surprise attack". Baku didn't suck up Susanoo instantly. It didn't suck up the surroundings. The surroundings during Danzo vs. Sasuke are weaker than Wood Release, even if your version of Wood Release is made of clay. Baku can only be summoned once and Hashirama isn't going to be in a vulnerable position. The instant Baku is summoned, Hashirama doesn't need to worry about his attention wavering for a counterattack. He'll be underground, a clone will form, or he'll be at a gigantic distance away. Baku will die to a single piercing attack. Hashirama has Fire Release in the databook as well. Danzo needs to be close to use Mokuton. Hashirama doesn't. His base stats compensate. Wind Release won't cut up any Wood Release in range, as Wood Release is everywhere in range. Danzo has no AoE that compares to the size of Wood Release and none that spawn as fast, with clones able to use jutsu at a higher frequency, ignoring that Hashirama already is faster himself in every way.

 

[KidGamer65]

I

I re read your post. Second sentence threw me off to your conclusion via 3rd sentence.

Since you said, "Oro was meh so Edo's were meh." I addressed your false premise that oro was meh w/ ET.

Lol, whatever pal.

Im not going to concede to something flawed. Oro developed and mastered ET, he was never ever meh with it.

1. In no time did had the time to developed it more to the story (as he used it in part 2).
2. Orochimaru up the precision this time then in part 2.

So in what conclusion, can you conduct an argument that Oro was meh so, so the stats of his ET changed.

Can you stop nitpicking? Please read below. He mastered the jutsu, but that doesn't mean it was good, or should I say good enough to bring people like Hashirama and Tobirama back at full power. Upping his precision w/ an external factor (Hashirama's cells) is what let him bring them back at full power, or near it.

But considering you've failed to actually address the relevant parts of this argument, I'll just take it as you not having any real counter argument.

Not repeating a defeating argument. Your premise has no basis via Orochimaru. You said Oro was meh so thats the reason Edo was meh in stats.

Learn to read. Oro being meh has to do with his usage of the jutsu, not Orocimaru himself. I don't even know what the hell you are talking about here since why Oro's edos were so weak has literally jack shit to do with anything in these two quoted sections.

And here I thought you really did read the thread as I literally never stated the Mokuton's were the same size.

Premise title:



Premise intro:



Oh gosh he spotted my agenda.

They are not close. They are nowhere near each other in scale or power. That simple.

You dont think its as hard for me to reply to you too. I had to cut down the wall of text, as I feel like Im wasting time and energy.

As I said before, when it comes to the The tip of the branches, obviously we know part 2 scaling is superior.

This wouldn't be a waste of time if you stopped with these flimsy ass arguments. What's worse is that you talk as if you are 100% right. Lmao. Only do that when you make sense pal.

And it's not even close btw. Not even close. So your thread's premise is still piss poor.

They were physically downgrade because Oro removed their conscience. Leaving to be mindless killing machines. Not because their literal stats were weaken:

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Baseless assumptions. Again. Kabuto never once mentioned physical ability there anyway.

Removing someone's consciousness isn't going to cause their jutsu to be weaker nor will it cause their physical stats to go down nor will it cause their physical stats to APPEAR as if they had gone down. The only thing that does is decrease their fighting efficiency, depending on the person. Did Nagato get weaker when Kabuto took control? Nope.

Edo Hashirama and Edo Tobirama's physical and Ninjutsu stats went down because they weren't brought back anywhere near their full power. Not because "Oro wiped their minds".

How exactly? You can only nitpick here. When Edo Madara was introduce he was doing the same butt kicking (this time with chakra absorption) then alive too. So whats your excuse for Edo Hiruzen to Alive Hiruzen. Clearly the suppose inferior version has superior capabilities.

-Madara is bound by Myojinmon.
-When Madara is revived he breaks out with raw physical power.

So no, it's clear that Madara is superior when alive.

Lol, dafuq are you talking about? Oro's edos were brought back close to full power the second time around. We are talking about his Part 1 Edos, and I brought in Kabuto's Edo Madara because his physical stats were SHOWN to go up after being revived. Hiruzen>=Edo Hiruzen.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

Can you stop nitpicking? Please read below. He mastered the jutsu, but that doesn't mean it was good, or should I say good enough to bring people like Hashirama and Tobirama back at full power. Upping his precision w/ an external factor (Hashirama's cells) is what let him bring them back at full power, or near it.

Where's the nitpicking? And can you read? Your claim is that Hashirama's cells is the reason they were brought back near their full power. But Manga shows Orochimaru completing the ritual BEFORE gaining Zetsu. And ONLY decided to USED the cells after Tobirama attempted to leave/overpower his control.

Learn to read. Oro being meh has to do with his usage of the jutsu, not Orocimaru himself. I don't even know what the hell you are talking about here since why Oro's edos were so weak has literally jack shit to do with anything in these two quoted sections.

Addressed Oro's usage of ET and addressed your false premise of Oro usage.

They are not close. They are nowhere near each other in scale or power. That simple.

Based on the base board of part 1 trees, it can fit more then 5 Hiruzen's. Who's about to size of Gaara, which can carry as much people[

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], though Madara's going much further and consistently bigger all the way. Hashirama's was suppressed inside the barrier. Both Madara and Hashirama has shown to overpower Doton style.

Edo Hiruzen new scale is retcon, which is piss poor scaling when shown alive. Im basing the scaling that needs to rival Hiruzen new scale.

This wouldn't be a waste of time if you stopped with these flimsy ass arguments. What's worse is that you talk as if you are 100% right. Lmao. Only do that when you make sense pal.

Lol ok.

Baseless assumptions. Again. Kabuto never once mentioned physical ability there anyway.

I brought the scan to show that their fighting style makes a difference base on their minds being erase or on conscience.

Removing someone's consciousness isn't going to cause their jutsu to be weaker nor will it cause their physical stats to go down nor will it cause their physical stats to APPEAR as if they had gone down. The only thing that does is decrease their fighting efficiency, depending on the person. Did Nagato get weaker when Kabuto took control? Nope.

Which is my point of bringing that scan up in the first place. I thought you were arguing in a different route.

Edo Hashirama and Edo Tobirama's physical and Ninjutsu stats went down because they weren't brought back anywhere near their full power. Not because "Oro wiped their minds".

Cleared up above. Concede on the physical but continuing with the ninjutsu.

-Madara is bound by Myojinmon.
-When Madara is revived he breaks out with raw physical power.

So no, it's clear that Madara is superior when alive.

Concede.

Lol, dafuq are you talking about? Oro's edos were brought back close to full power the second time around. We are talking about his Part 1 Edos, and I brought in Kabuto's Edo Madara because his physical stats were SHOWN to go up after being revived. Hiruzen>=Edo Hiruzen.

Concede.

Now let me addressed the ninjutsu. The reason why I compared it to Shoten is because it is very similar to how Tobirama and Hashirama weren't back at full power.

Here's the databook for Shoten:

Shapeshifting* Technique (象転の術, Shouten no Jutsu)
Ninjutsu, No rank, Supplementary, All ranges
User: Pain

Transferring one's chakra to a sacrifice and possessing them
As long as they stay alive, they'll play the part of a strong person!!

Pain allocates chakra from an "Akatsuki" member to a target person, allowing them to fight via an elaborate "copy". The power of the copy is in proportion to the volume of allocated chakra. The original's abilities are also available...!! However, once the chakra runs out, the technique is cancelled and the copy dies. As it even uses up the target's chakra, this is an incredibly brutal technique.

↓The one who performs the technique and decides how much chakra is allocated is Pain...
[picture of Pain]

[picture of Kisame's clone, holding the Samehada]
→The "Shapeshifting Technique" also imitates the weapons and tools held by the original person, allowing the copy to fight with them...!!

For a short time a part of "Akatsuki"!!

[picture of Itachi's clone]
←The appearance of the person on whom the "Shapeshifting Technique" is performed is 100% identical to the original person.

[picture of Itachi's clone performing the Great Fireball Technique]
←Of course, the techniques used by the copy are the same as those of the original person. Even the pride of the "Uchiha clan," the "Fire Release: Great Fireball Technique"**, can be flawlessly reproduced!!

*The kanji literally mean "shape," "imitation" and "shift," "revolve" respectively. "Shapeshifting" is a perfect translation for these kanji, but "shouten" isn't the word normally used as the Japanese translation for "shapeshifting," which would be "henshin" (変身).
**Fire Release: Great Fireball Technique (火遁・豪火球の術, Katon: Goukakyuu no Jutsu).

I bold the important one since it is the same to part 1 Hashi and Tobi.

Itachi's comment:

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.

So indeed strength = physical stats being effected here too.
And ninjutsu (to what was available in their capacity) werent shown any weaker.

I'll make my points simple, quick, and in bullets then. I'll just use Hashirama. I don't care about your odd belief that Edo Tensei part 1 Hashirama and Tobirama weren't weak. I'll go with it, so you can't get away from the actual argument of this topic or how embarrassing this is. I'm not picking apart every line of what you said like Kid. I don't use manga scans and don't need to.

Well your wasting your time as I not once did I bring arguments of Akatsuki winning. I realized this was an unbalance match putting them together against 1 Akatsuki. I overestimated Akatsuki and underestimated the nerfed team, way before you saw me and KG wall of text.

The only reason why you see me writing wall of text to KG65 is because he made a claim that Hashirama alone wins with "ease". I only challenge that part that its really wouldn't be "ease". And discussing my thread of Edo's power level in part 1. I wasnt actually going with Akatsuki+Kage at all.

• Hashirama questions
• Why would a direct hit reject a body? A direct hit or kill isn't rejecting their body. Their physical stats are copied until they die. Thus, whatever Hashirama can normally survive from with Senju cells (as in anything), the copied body will survive from. I don't even know where you got the opposite logic, honestly.

• 
  
  Base on the Databook you can see that I post in KG's quote.
  
  Ill give partial quotes from it
  
  

  Transferring one's chakra to a sacrifice and possessing them
  As long as they stay alive, they'll play the part of a strong person!!

  
  

  However, once the chakra runs out, the technique is cancelled and the copy dies. As it even uses up the target's chakra, this is an incredibly brutal technique.

  
  So I went by the sacrificial body. So I base it on what if the sacrificial body were to get hit by lethal attacks.
  
  Everything else in the quote is irrelevant to me.
  
  
  I made a unbalance, spite thread. Thread's basically done. So ill man up to that mistake and hold this L.

 

[KidGamer65]

Where's the nitpicking? And can you read? Your claim is that Hashirama's cells is the reason they were brought back near their full power. But Manga shows Orochimaru completing the ritual BEFORE gaining Zetsu. And ONLY decided to USED the cells after Tobirama attempted to leave/overpower his control.

You picked this whole "why Oro's ET was weaker" detail out of my post, and blew it up into a big argument. Probably cause you realize you don't have any point in the areas where it matters.

And how does that matter anyway? Kabuto had completed the rituals for his zombies long before he got Oro's chakra, yet he wanted it so he could boost the power of his Edo Zombies. Hashirama's cells played the same purpose. Not to mention that's the only thing that has changed since Orochimaru last cast Edo Tensei, so it's pretty clear why they are actually strong now.

Based on the base board of part 1 trees, it can fit more then 5 Hiruzen's. Who's about to size of Gaara, which can carry as much people[

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],

Your logic is terrible, and it makes zero sense. Both being able to fit the same amount of people means just about nothing.

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Stop comparing Full Power Mokuton to Gimped Mokuton. For the love of God.

though Madara's going much further and consistently bigger all the way. Hashirama's was suppressed inside the barrier.

There's no proof that Hashirama could've made anything larger than what he did in canon.

Both Madara and Hashirama has shown to overpower Doton style.

Doton Golem>Earth Wall. Let's not leave out important facts.

Edo Hiruzen new scale is retcon, which is piss poor scaling when shown alive. Im basing the scaling that needs to rival Hiruzen new scale.

No, it's not a retcon. Hiruzen never used those abilities in Part 1. Ever. No reason why the scale of his Karyu Endan would increase to what was shown during the War.

Now let me addressed the ninjutsu. The reason why I compared it to Shoten is because it is very similar to how Tobirama and Hashirama weren't back at full power.

It's not. Stop comparing Shoten and Edo Tensei. They don't work the same. Not even close.

Here's the databook for Shoten:



I bold the important one since it is the same to part 1 Hashi and Tobi.

Itachi's comment:

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.

So indeed strength = physical stats being effected here too.
And ninjutsu (to what was available in their capacity) werent shown any weaker.

Strength=Overall power. Not just physical strength. If physical abilities had anything to do with it, then all physical abilities would've been mentioned, like speed.

Then we have the fact that Shoten and Edo Tensei aren't the same, so this whole point is useless. The bold is NOT the same. You've provided literally no proof for this. The techniques that are available are the same strength with the SHOTEN. Not Edo Tensei.

 

[Veggie the Tormentor]

Where's the nitpicking? And can you read? Your claim is that Hashirama's cells is the reason they were brought back near their full power. But Manga shows Orochimaru completing the ritual BEFORE gaining Zetsu. And ONLY decided to USED the cells after Tobirama attempted to leave/overpower his control.



Addressed Oro's usage of ET and addressed your false premise of Oro usage.




Based on the base board of part 1 trees, it can fit more then 5 Hiruzen's. Who's about to size of Gaara, which can carry as much people[

You must be registered for see links

], though Madara's going much further and consistently bigger all the way. Hashirama's was suppressed inside the barrier. Both Madara and Hashirama has shown to overpower Doton style.

Edo Hiruzen new scale is retcon, which is piss poor scaling when shown alive. Im basing the scaling that needs to rival Hiruzen new scale.



Lol ok.



I brought the scan to show that their fighting style makes a difference base on their minds being erase or on conscience.



Which is my point of bringing that scan up in the first place. I thought you were arguing in a different route.



Cleared up above. Concede on the physical but continuing with the ninjutsu.



Concede.



Concede.

Now let me addressed the ninjutsu. The reason why I compared it to Shoten is because it is very similar to how Tobirama and Hashirama weren't back at full power.

Here's the databook for Shoten:



I bold the important one since it is the same to part 1 Hashi and Tobi.

Itachi's comment:

You must be registered for see links

.

So indeed strength = physical stats being effected here too.
And ninjutsu (to what was available in their capacity) werent shown any weaker.




Well your wasting your time as I not once did I bring arguments of Akatsuki winning. I realized this was an unbalance match putting them together against 1 Akatsuki. I overestimated Akatsuki and underestimated the nerfed team, way before you saw me and KG wall of text.

The only reason why you see me writing wall of text to KG65 is because he made a claim that Hashirama alone wins with "ease". I only challenge that part that its really wouldn't be "ease". And discussing my thread of Edo's power level in part 1. I wasnt actually going with Akatsuki+Kage at all.



Base on the Databook you can see that I post in KG's quote.

Ill give partial quotes from it





So I went by the sacrificial body. So I base it on what if the sacrificial body were to get hit by lethal attacks.

Everything else in the quote is irrelevant to me.


I made a unbalance, spite thread. Thread's basically done. So ill man up to that mistake and hold this L.

Hashirama does win with ease...

They aren't dying to lethal blows. They play the part of a strong person. As in, they have their physical stats, demonstrated by Itachi and Kisame. Kisame and Itachi weren't at 30 percent in physical stats. Power means chakra and manga takes precedence over databook. As in, they have their durability. As in, having Sharingan means having Senju DNA still. Obito and Madara had reduced Senju DNA. Hashirama can literally turn his body into pieces of wood and can't die.

Personally still don't care about the Shoten and Edo argument being had, as long as they retain their physical stats.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

You picked this whole "why Oro's ET was weaker" detail out of my post, and blew it up into a big argument. Probably cause you realize you don't have any point in the areas where it matters.

Nope, more like every detail is crucial for you to finally get it. Not one part needs to be in denial.

And how does that matter anyway? Kabuto had completed the rituals for his zombies long before he got Oro's chakra, yet he wanted it so he could boost the power of his Edo Zombies. Hashirama's cells played the same purpose. Not to mention that's the only thing that has changed since Orochimaru last cast Edo Tensei, so it's pretty clear why they are actually strong now.

It matter because your mixing up the manga to fit your argument, as to why your wrong. Like this quote for an example.

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.

So can you please stop with the baseless claims that power boost from the caster gives his Edo's a certain power level.

Your logic is terrible, and it makes zero sense. Both being able to fit the same amount of people means just about nothing.

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Stop comparing Full Power Mokuton to Gimped Mokuton. For the love of God.

Yes, ill stop because are you continuously using other scans that I'm not trying to prove are comparable. Its annoying so ill drop this and prove that Hashirama's Mokuton got retcon another way.

There's no proof that Hashirama could've made anything larger than what he did in canon.

Dont need to prove what I didn't claim. My claim is retcon.

Doton Golem>Earth Wall. Let's not leave out important facts.

What Im factoring is the durability between the two and no evidence that Golem is more durable to Hiruzen's wall.

No, it's not a retcon. Hiruzen never used those abilities in Part 1. Ever. No reason why the scale of his Karyu Endan would increase to what was shown during the War.

Saying Hiruzen most proud fire jutsu that he developed, being inferior then a basic fire stream, is nothing but a joke. More denials here.

Are you going to also deny that Hiruzen couldn't make a bigger Doton Wall either? Lets find out.

It's not. Stop comparing Shoten and Edo Tensei. They don't work the same. Not even close.

Lol yea its not like both require sacrifices and the fact that both can alter precision of the substituted body.

Strength=Overall power. Not just physical strength. If physical abilities had anything to do with it, then all physical abilities would've been mentioned, like speed.

Wtf when did I say just physical strength? I litterally wrote "So indeed strength = physical stats being effected here too."

Then we have the fact that Shoten and Edo Tensei aren't the same, so this whole point is useless. The bold is NOT the same. You've provided literally no proof for this. The techniques that are available are the same strength with the SHOTEN. Not Edo Tensei.

This time without denying every point conclude this evidence:

-Orochimaru mastered Edo Tensei. He can alter the precision his "summon".

-Manga has never ever ever stated the jutsu they were able to used, Hashirama and Tobirama, were a weaker level.

-We know Orochimaru lowered their power level. Manga never shown that lowering physical stats effects the jutsu they can use in their capacity. Ever. You literally can nitpick the scaling of part 1 Hashirama to prove your case. But you cant touch the other examples like Tobirama and Hiruzen. And Kabuto's Edo's.

 

[KidGamer65]

Nope, more like every detail is crucial for you to finally get it. Not one part needs to be in denial.



It matter because your mixing up the manga to fit your argument, as to why your wrong. Like this quote for an example.

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.

So can you please stop with the baseless claims that power boost from the caster gives his Edo's a certain power level.

Still doesn't prove that the user can alter how strong the Edo is. That's an idiotic claim to make anyway considering he could've brought them back much stronger than they were against Hiruzen instead of them being extremely gimped. Orochimaru somehow making improvements to the summons=/=Orochimaru, and other summoners, being able to CONTROL the strength of the zombie.

Yes, ill stop because are you continuously using other scans that I'm not trying to prove are comparable. Its annoying so ill drop this and prove that Hashirama's Mokuton got retcon another way.

I've posted the same scans that were in your thread AND THEN SOME. Don't tell me that I'm using other scans so you can make some poor excuse as to why you don't have a real counter argument.

Dont need to prove what I didn't claim. My claim is retcon.

Your claim is baseless.

What Im factoring is the durability between the two and no evidence that Golem is more durable to Hiruzen's wall.

Golems take Magatama and they can take Deidara's explosions. What feats does Hiruzen's wall have again?

Saying Hiruzen most proud fire jutsu that he developed, being inferior then a basic fire stream, is nothing but a joke. More denials here.

What the hell? Can we stop with the stupid arguments? It's bad enough you stooped low enough to make this shitty spite thread, and then have the nerve to defend it like you were stating fact. Where did the Manga or the DB state that Hiruzen developed Karyu Endan? Oh wait, nowhere. Where was it stated to be his "most proud fire jutsu"? DB states that it has overwhelming power that he is proud of.

There is no reason for me to believe that this jutsu is stronger than Hiruzen's Bijuu Sized Fire stream. That simple. When you can get real evidence and not your opinion then we can talk.


Your claim has nothing but imaginary evidence. It's really that simple.

Are you going to also deny that Hiruzen couldn't make a bigger Doton Wall either? Lets find out.

Who knows? I have no reason to believe he can. Techniques aren't going to magically get bigger for no reason. Each tech has it's cap. Hiruzen being able to use 5 completely different techniques on a scale larger than Karyu Endan or Doton Wall doesn't mean that those two techniques need to match that scale.

-Madara has Juubi Sized Katon, so does Obito.
-Their Gokyaku is the same, regular sized Katon.

Lol yea its not like both require sacrifices and the fact that both can alter precision of the substituted body.

I'm still waiting for proof that they are THE SAME IN THE RESPECT THAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT. Do I have to piece two and two together for you? Shoten and ET having some similarities doesn't mean that they work the same in every single way. Stop with the shitty comparisons.

This time without denying every point conclude this evidence:

-Orochimaru mastered Edo Tensei. He can alter the precision his "summon".

Baseless.

-Manga has never ever ever stated the jutsu they were able to used, Hashirama and Tobirama, were a weaker level.

Doesn't matter. Manga shows that they are weaker, including their jutsu. You are making shit analogies, comparisons and ignoring evidence in favor of your "retcon" argument which literally has no proof backing it. Just your terrible opinion that no one cares for.

-We know Orochimaru lowered their power level.

That's the best he could do.

Manga never shown that lowering physical stats effects the jutsu they can use in their capacity. Ever.

Except that's not what Edo Tensei does. It lowers OVERALL POWER. How many times do I have to tell you this before you stop spewing this BS?

You literally can nitpick the scaling of part 1 Hashirama to prove your case.

There is no nitpicking here. It's called basic comparison. Hashirama's Mokuton as a weakened Edo is piss poor in comparison to his Mokuton at full power, and you literally have no evidence to prove that it was "retconned". When you can prove your claim, please get back to me.

But you cant touch the other examples like Tobirama and Hiruzen. And Kabuto's Edo's.

-Hiruzen has jack shit to do with this.
-Kabuto's edos have jack shit to do with this.

-Tobirama has jack shit to do with this. You can't even prove that his techniques were retconned since he was brought back as a WEAKENED EDO TENSEI.


Why don't you stick to the topic buddy. HASHIRAMA. Stop with the terrible arguments. Please. Stop trying to prove that Part 1 Hashirama's Mokuton is comparable to Part 2 Hashirama's Mokuton. Stop trying to argue that Edo Tensei and Shoten work the same way.

-Shoten's strength depends on the chakra amount because the jutsu are limited, which is also based on the chakra amount. Jutsu that can be replicated are the exact same as the original.

-Edo Tensei's strength, who knows what it depends on? But if the Edo Tensei is nowhere near their full power, their goddamn techniques are NOT going to be anywhere near their full power either. It's really that simple.

1. Hashirama's Jukai Kotan is garbage compared to Madara's (Who can replicate Hashirama's Mokuton on an equal scale) Jukai Kotan.

2. Tobirama's Suijinheki and Suiryudan are near the same scale as people like Darui. Though to be fair, nothing in the Manga ever said Tobirama was a Suiton specialist. He was only praised for being able to use Suiton in an area with no water, which has more to do with his abilities with chakra control and whatnot, not the scale or power of his Suiton.

3. Hashirama and Tobirama's physical abilities also went down, given none of them were able to put up any resistance, even before the talismans were inserted into their body. Then there's Tobirama's statement when he's revived near full power, which makes it pretty damn clear that he didn't have the power to break out before.

Hashirama's techs are weaker because HE'S WEAKER. Not because the scale of his techs were retconned. Zero proof for that.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

Still doesn't prove that the user can alter how strong the Edo is. That's an idiotic claim to make anyway considering he could've brought them back much stronger than they were against Hiruzen instead of them being extremely gimped. Orochimaru somehow making improvements to the summons=/=Orochimaru, and other summoners, being able to CONTROL the strength of the zombie.

Tobirama outright stated Orochimaru did and your still saying thats not proof. And all your arguments base on the "power" of caster has been debunked so you have no water to say whats right or wrong here.

Your claim is baseless.

I guess we didn't establish what happen to Madara. Gaining his power didn't have the slightest effect to what he could use.

Golems take Magatama and they can take Deidara's explosions. What feats does Hiruzen's wall have again?

Golems and Sand isn't a helping case. Your only case is Deidara's explosion. And I pray you dont think C1 is busting Wall.

What the hell? Can we stop with the stupid arguments? It's bad enough you stooped low enough to make this shitty spite thread, and then have the nerve to defend it like you were stating fact. Where did the Manga or the DB state that Hiruzen developed Karyu Endan? Oh wait, nowhere. Where was it stated to be his "most proud fire jutsu"? DB states that it has overwhelming power that he is proud of

There is no reason for me to believe that this jutsu is stronger than Hiruzen's Bijuu Sized Fire stream. That simple. When you can get real evidence and not your opinion then we can talk.

Dont need to cry just read further in the DB. Its in the last description:

-Contrary to a Hulking Fireball* that spreads to cover a large area in flames, it is more appropriate to brand it a Flaming Bullet. That's the reason why it is Sandaime's jutsu.

We have no hype of Hiruzen's other jutsu that stated he is proud of developing (and he also created Shadow Shiruken). So I'm not going to say this is his only proud jutsu.

Who knows? I have no reason to believe he can. Techniques aren't going to magically get bigger for no reason. Each tech has it's cap. Hiruzen being able to use 5 completely different techniques on a scale larger than Karyu Endan or Doton Wall doesn't mean that those two techniques need to match that scale.

-Madara has Juubi Sized Katon, so does Obito.
-Their Gokyaku is the same, regular sized Katon.

Should know

Earth Release: Earth Style Wall (土遁・土流壁, Doton: Doryuu Heki) Ninjutsu, B-rank, Defensive, Short range (0-5m) User: Sandaime Hokage An earthen barrier, rising up in an instant!! This ninjutsu defends oneself against an incoming attack by creating a solid wall of earth. Chakra is converted to earth within the body and then spit out. This earth then instantly rises up and takes form. The barrier itself is also coated with chakra, making its strength incomparable to that of a normal mud wall. Because of the earth's special characteristics, the wall is highly resistant against, for instance, fire and water. Also, for a Hokage-class shinobi it is possible to create a vast volume of earth...!! [picture of the Sandaime Hokage performing a handseal] [picture of the Sandaime Hokage spitting out the earth] ↑→The Sandaime Hokage displays a great performance by changing his chakra into a vast volume of earth and forming it into a gigantic wall!! ↓It perfectly blocks even the fury of the Nidaime Hokage's Water Release ninjutsu!! [picture of the Sandaime Hokage using the Earth Style Wall to protect against the Nidaime Hokage's Water Dragon Bullet] A perfect blockade!![

Of course he needs to rival the scale. They are classless element attacks, using a nature affinity should not be superior then classified version of the element.

I'm still waiting for proof that they are THE SAME IN THE RESPECT THAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT. Do I have to piece two and two together for you? Shoten and ET having some similarities doesn't mean that they work the same in every single way. Stop with the shitty comparisons.

You use Madara as a perfect example. So my prove is base on people had experience being Edo and alive.
Edo at best = near full power. What we saw is that their jutsu they were capable of wasnt any weaker.

Baseless.

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Baseless, Hm? Its not like Tobirama stated he had then previously

Doesn't matter. Manga shows that they are weaker, including their jutsu. You are making shit analogies, comparisons and ignoring evidence in favor of your "retcon" argument which literally has no proof backing it. Just your terrible opinion that no one cares for.

Addressed

That's the best he could do.

Feats say otherwise (as he had no time to share until getting his arms back) and Kabuto's copying usage and both he and Tobirama's clear statement.

Except that's not what Edo Tensei does. It lowers OVERALL POWER. How many times do I have to tell you this before you stop spewing this BS?

When you can stay consistent with your premise. Edo lowers overall power. Madara's overall power wasn't effected then full power.

There is no nitpicking here. It's called basic comparison. Hashirama's Mokuton as a weakened Edo is piss poor in comparison to his Mokuton at full power, and you literally have no evidence to prove that it was "retconned". When you can prove your claim, please get back to me.

Madara

Hiruzen

-Hiruzen has jack shit to do with this.
-Kabuto's edos have jack shit to do with this.

Base on your premise, Madara was a perfect example.

Base on the evidence of Hiruzen basic, classless element stream being bigger then part 1.

-Tobirama has jack shit to do with this. You can't even prove that his techniques were retconned since he was brought back as a WEAKENED EDO TENSEI.

Yes I can, base on the fact that he equally clashed with a full power Hiruzen in even level of element match up. So it still needs to clash as his Edo part.

Why don't you stick to the topic buddy. HASHIRAMA. Stop with the terrible arguments. Please. Stop trying to prove that Part 1 Hashirama's Mokuton is comparable to Part 2 Hashirama's Mokuton. Stop trying to argue that Edo Tensei and Shoten work the same way.

Lol nope thats you just clinging to one piece of the argument that you think is efficient what boils down to who's right and wrong when there's many.

-Shoten's strength depends on the chakra amount because the jutsu are limited, which is also based on the chakra amount. Jutsu that can be replicated are the exact same as the original.

Ok. Already know this. We already know that the jutsu they are capable of, isn't weaker then being 100.

-Edo Tensei's strength, who knows what it depends on? But if the Edo Tensei is nowhere near their full power, their goddamn techniques are NOT going to be anywhere near their full power either. It's really that simple.

You question to what Tobirama already answered. Base on the fact the caster will up the precision of their summon. But yea addressed

1. Hashirama's Jukai Kotan is garbage compared to Madara's (Who can replicate Hashirama's Mokuton on an equal scale) Jukai Kotan.

It was when part 1 scaling was crappy in general. But yea addressed.

2. Tobirama's Suijinheki and Suiryudan are near the same scale as people like Darui. Though to be fair, nothing in the Manga ever said Tobirama was a Suiton specialist. He was only praised for being able to use Suiton in an area with no water, which has more to do with his abilities with chakra control and whatnot, not the scale or power of his Suiton.

Suijinheki, sure, but Suiryudan is not debatable of being close. Who cares? We have more background from the DB plus the fact that DB explains more of his versatility from his 2 new water jutsus:

Though the db hyping his suiton capability is ancient and hard to find clear scan:

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.

3. Hashirama and Tobirama's physical abilities also went down, given none of them were able to put up any resistance, even before the talismans were inserted into their body. Then there's Tobirama's statement when he's revived near full power, which makes it pretty damn clear that he didn't have the power to break out before.

No Tobirama's stated Orochimaru amped them at the level NOW then he did BEFORE. It wasn't Tobirama's choice and say said that every clearly.

Hashirama's techs are weaker because HE'S WEAKER. Not because the scale of his techs were retconned. Zero proof for that.

Addressed.

 

[KidGamer65]

Tobirama outright stated Orochimaru did and your still saying thats not proof. And all your arguments base on the "power" of caster has been debunked so you have no water to say whats right or wrong here.

He said that he improved it, not that he was able to choose. Learn the difference before replying again.

I guess we didn't establish what happen to Madara. Gaining his power didn't have the slightest effect to what he could use.

1. When he was revived he used Haijingakure, and then Hashirama said that he's gaining his old powers back.

2. Wasn't arguing that it did in the first place, nor is that relevant towards your retcon nonsense.

Golems and Sand isn't a helping case. Your only case is Deidara's explosion. And I pray you dont think C1 is busting Wall.

Never said that. I only said that there are no feats to put it above. Not sure why I'm even wasting my time with this wall nonsense when Part 2 Mokuton is much stronger and much larger.

Dont need to cry just read further in the DB. Its in the last description:

It being his jutsu doesn't mean that he created the jutsu, and even if he did, it doesn't prove your point. So do us both a favor and drop this shit argument.

We have no hype of Hiruzen's other jutsu that stated he is proud of developing (and he also created Shadow Shiruken). So I'm not going to say this is his only proud jutsu.

Whoever said it was the only jutsu he's proud of? Lmao. It being a jutsu he's proud have has nothing to do with it being stronger than his elemental streams. Stop using shitty logic when we have clear on panel comparisons. The fact that "retcon" is your only argument makes it pretty hard to take you seriously.

Should know

DB says nothing that answers the question here. Nice try though.

Of course he needs to rival the scale. They are classless element attacks, using a nature affinity should not be superior then classified version of the element.

Which is literally based on nothing. If we used this logic, then every single elemental Ninjutsu that actually had a name would have to be on a larger scale than the nameless elemental streams Hiruzen used, but of course, that isn't true. Sasuke's Katon isn't stronger than Hiruzen's elemental streams.

You use Madara as a perfect example. So my prove is base on people had experience being Edo and alive.

Madara was to show that the Edos physical power does decrease when they aren't at full power. How in the hell does that prove that Shoten and ET work the same way?

Oh wait, it doesn't.

Edo at best = near full power. What we saw is that their jutsu they were capable of wasnt any weaker.

Because they were near full power. The difference is negligible. Why are you comparing that to Edos who are NOWHERE near full power?

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Baseless, Hm? Its not like Tobirama stated he had then previously

I really suggest we take Reading Comp 101 again. Orochimaru improving=/=Orochimaru being able to choose how strong his zombies are. It'd be retarded for him to bring his zombies back so weak when he can choose to bring them back stronger than they were in Part 2.

Feats say otherwise (as he had no time to share until getting his arms back) and Kabuto's copying usage and both he and Tobirama's clear statement.

No feat whatsoever proves your point, nor does Tobirama's statement if you actually take your head out of your ass and start reading it correctly.

When you can stay consistent with your premise. Edo lowers overall power. Madara's overall power wasn't effected then full power.

Please read above. Not only is that not true, given the boost to his physical stats when revived. They were near full power. Why the hell would their jutsu have any noticeable differences than when they were alive? You don't even have a proper comparison to prove the bold even if I were to go along with this nonsense.

-Edo Madara and Rinne Tensei Madara didn't show any of the same feats besides Susanoo, and Edo Madara has shown to make a larger Complete Susanoo than what RT Madara used against the Bijuu.

Madara

Hiruzen

Literally no proof.

Base on your premise, Madara was a perfect example.

Not really.

Base on the evidence of Hiruzen basic, classless element stream being bigger then part 1.

Addressed.

Yes I can, base on the fact that he equally clashed with a full power Hiruzen in even level of element match up. So it still needs to clash as his Edo part.

He matched his Karyu Endan. To prove that there was some retcon, you'd have to prove that Karyu Endan in part 2>>Karyu Endan in Part 1, and you literally have no evidence for that claim besides the flimsy crap above.

Lol nope thats you just clinging to one piece of the argument that you think is efficient what boils down to who's right and wrong when there's many.

That's a direct comparison. You are ignoring a direct comparison in favor of shitty arguments that are easily countered.

Ok. Already know this. We already know that the jutsu they are capable of, isn't weaker then being 100.

Uh-huh.

You question to what Tobirama already answered. Base on the fact the caster will up the precision of their summon. But yea addressed

Baseless. Again.

It was when part 1 scaling was crappy in general. But yea addressed.

Baseless, as usual.

Suijinheki, sure, but Suiryudan is not debatable of being close. Who cares? We have more background from the DB plus the fact that DB explains more of his versatility from his 2 new water jutsus:

Though the db hyping his suiton capability is ancient and hard to find clear scan:

You must be registered for see links

.

You haven't even addressed the main point here. Whoever said that it was close? Lmao. Read buddy. I said it's weaker, far weaker than it should, and that's because he's been brought back much weaker than he should be.
No Tobirama's stated Orochimaru amped them at the level NOW then he did BEFORE. It wasn't Tobirama's choice and say said that every clearly.

 

[Veggie the Tormentor]

I don't see why you guys haven't taken this to discussion, considering Numsay already said all of the people in the gauntlet lose to Hashirama.

 

[KidGamer65]

I don't see why you guys haven't taken this to discussion, considering Numsay already said all of the people in the gauntlet lose to Hashirama.

He's clinging to whatever points he can since the main argument was already ended, with the conclusion that this thread was a spite thread. But I can't really say that I'm surprised.