[table="width: 550, align: center"][tr][td]Suigetsu takes this. Haku creating ice merely gives Suigetsu an increased water supply to manipulate. Haku hasn't been shown to freeze water specifically (only pure oxygen), especially water infused with chakra (i.e. every shinobi in the Naruto world). Physically, nothing is hurting Suigetsu, and Suigetsu definitely has the speed to combat Haku seeing as he was able to blitz Spiral Zetsu, as well intercept a V1 Ei on the brink of completing his assault on an MS Sasuke in the GKS.
I'd like more insight on this from Haku supporters.
[/td][/tr][/table]
[table="width: 550, align: center"][tr][td]Suigetsu takes this. Haku creating ice merely gives Suigetsu an increased water supply to manipulate. Haku hasn't been shown to freeze water specifically (only pure oxygen), especially water infused with chakra (i.e. every shinobi in the Naruto world). Physically, nothing is hurting Suigetsu, and Suigetsu definitely has the speed to combat Haku seeing as he was able to blitz Spiral Zetsu, as well intercept a V1 Ei on the brink of completing his assault on an MS Sasuke in the GKS.
I'd like more insight on this from Haku supporters.
[/td][/tr][/table]
You seemed to have missed this portion. Haku isn't winning this match-up, until you involve proof of Haku freezing water containing chakra.
[/td][/tr][/table]
[table="width: 550, align: center"][tr][td] You seemed to have missed this portion. Haku isn't winning this match-up, until you involve proof of Haku freezing water containing chakra.
[/td][/tr][/table]
does chakra stop water from turning into steam when it hits a katon?
I'm not sure why heating the molecules would be significantly different than cooling them. Or rather why we are arguing the atoms can be sped up and not slowed down
does chakra stop water from turning into steam when it hits a katon?
I'm not sure why heating the molecules would be significantly different than cooling them. Or rather why we are arguing the atoms can be sped up and not slowed down
[table="width: 550, align: center"][tr][td]We've never seen the act of freezing chakra infused water, if so Haku would've done so in Pt.II. On that note, the example you used is insubstantial on the premise: Katon > Suiton it was merely the overpowering of ones chakra vs another. In this case, that isn't happening, Haku's chakra reserves are not > Suigetsu's, nor can such be proven.
Without substantial chakra reserves, overpowering Suigetsu's chakra within his body/water constructs is impossible, as well canonically it isn't supported, as I stated previously.
[/td][/tr][/table]
[table="width: 550, align: center"][tr][td]We've never seen the act of freezing chakra infused water, if so Haku would've done so in Pt.II. On that note, the example you used is insubstantial on the premise: Katon > Suiton it was merely the overpowering of ones chakra vs another. In this case, that isn't happening, Haku's chakra reserves are not > Suigetsu's, nor can such be proven.
Without substantial chakra reserves, overpowering Suigetsu's chakra within his body/water constructs is impossible, as well canonically it isn't supported, as I stated previously.
[/td][/tr][/table]
Wrong. Katon> Suiton, Why? Is it because Katon accelerates the atoms of a suiton and turn them into steam, a gaseous state? Probably.
Overpowering ones chakra wouldn't result in steam. Yet Katons coming in contact with suitons clearly produce steam ergo, water with chakra react to heat or the lack thereof
[table="width: 550, align: center"][tr][td] You seemed to have missed this portion. Haku isn't winning this match-up, until you involve proof of Haku freezing water containing chakra.
[/td][/tr][/table]
Wrong. Katon> Suiton, Why? Is it because Katon accelerates the atoms of a suiton and turn them into steam, a gaseous state? Probably.
Overpowering ones chakra wouldn't result in steam. Yet Katons coming in contact with suitons clearly produce steam ergo, water with chakra react to heat or the lack thereof
[table="width: 550, align: center"][tr][td]Noted. However, chakra has involvement, one cannot deny this, especially with it being in the Naruto world. Without substantial chakra to create a potent enough fire to intercept the suiton there would be no steam, merely an engulfed fire. If the fire cannot reach water's boiling point, there is no steam; chakra increases the potency of a technique (i.e. in this case fire).
Not all fires have the same heat/potency clearly. Chakra increases the potency of techniques substantially, which is why larger/stronger versions of techniques are capable of being performed (e.g. Sakura infusing her chakra into Obito so he could perform a larger Kamui). This all stems from chakra vs chakra.
This situation is a tad bit different because Haku would attempt to solidify Suigetsu's chakra network/chakra (which he hasn't been shown to canonically do on individuals). Haku would need to send his chakra into Suigetsu's body, and overpower his own chakra to cause the solidifying of Suigetsu's water..
Wait.. I've already discussed this hold on:
You must be registered for see images
[table="width: 550, align: center"][tr][td]Suigetsu's (and possibly other Hōzuki clan members) resistance to heat is severely overlooked/underrated, being the target of fallacious statements such as: "Katon jutsu would evaporate Suigetsu." This is in fact false; Suigetsu has been shown to be highly resistant to thermal energy (i.e. heat).
Resistance
Suigetsu while utilizing the technique: Tate Eboshi, against Kirābī displayed a unique feat that physically shouldn't have been possible. Whilst in his aquatic avatar state battling Kirābī, Suigetsu adamantly went toe, to toe with one of the strongest attacks we've seen yet; the Bijūdama.
It's been shown multiple times, that the Bijūdama is the byproduct of releasing highly compressed energy. The actively compressed energy is transitioned into thermal energy due to the atoms being in constant motion; the manga has portrayed this consistently.
You must be registered for see images
It's common knowledge that compressed energy is more lethal on the pretense of being focused in a secluded area/range, while energy that simply explodes expansively is less potent in regards to its formerly compressed properties (i.e. heat); as the energy spreads out over wider ranges, the thermal energy is carried further, producing less focused heat, than its counterpart. Example:
You must be registered for see images
To further backup this fact, Gyūki's Bijūdama was explicitly shown to have rose the heat temperature of the surrounding water, causing the liquid to evaporate into steam (gas). This shouldn't be argued/disagreed with seeing as how the Bijūdama's energy was shown to rupture solid constructs.
You must be registered for see images
With that being brought to the surface, Suigetsu was shown to have been completely in tact, even when Gyūki's Bijūdama severely dwarfed his water construct, and was shown to evaporate the surrounding water. You can clearly see Jūgo carrying Suigetsu after the initial confrontation between Tate Eboshi x Bijūdama.
You must be registered for see images
We've canonically not seen any katon jutsu rival the power/thermal energy a Bijūdama possesses, thereby fortifying the fact, that Suigetsu is innately heat resistant to any, and all present fire-based techniques portrayed in the manga. Along with suiton being the superior element between the two on the element weakness chart.
Potency
A Bijūdama from the lesser-tailed Bijū were capable of destroying mountains as Kakashi himself stated; Kurama himself in previous chapters had stated the more tails one had, the stronger/more chakra one would possess, which by manga portrayal has been precisely true.
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
Bijūdama from the lesser-tailed Bijū were mountain busters; Gyūki, along with Kurama are undoubtedly stronger than all of the other Bijū by manga portrayal. Which can lead us to the inference that both of their respective Bijūdama are more potent than that of the others.
TL;DR
Suigetsu's resistance to heat-based techniques shouldn't be overlooked any further; capable of withstanding, and not evaporating from the sheer thermal energy radiated from Gyūki's Bijūdama which was explicitly shown to evaporate water several pages later.
As well, the lesser-tailed Bijū were shown to be mountain busters with their own Bijūdama, while both Kurama's statement, and manga portrayal highlight the 8th, and 9th tailed-beast are superior to their lesser-tailed kin. In short, Suigetsu cannot be evaporated by anything on, or below the level of Gyūki's Bijūdama.[/td][/tr][/table]
If Suigetsu's molecules couldn't exude steam here, they wouldn't be able to be frozen. Simple. Can't believe I almost forgot about the Hōzuki's resistant body composition to heat, which could be in turn used against freezing.
[/td][/tr][/table]
To be fair Morning Peacock also was effective in evaporating some of the 1000 sharks.
Also I'm not really sure how Haku kills here. Perhaps in a Shikamaru v Hidan fashion
In response to the above, wasn't there a lot more water present so that in order to create steam the tempature of the whole had to be raised and as more energy was spent raising the total temp of the lake, than this scenario we are discussing here?
In response to the above, wasn't there a lot more water present so that in order to create steam the tempature of the whole had to be raised and as more energy was spent raising the total temp of the lake, than this scenario we are discussing here?
[table="width: 550, align: center"][tr][td]The TBB was directly in Suigetsu's face, yet it caused steam to exude from its surroundings (that were on the opposite side of trajectory). Your reply is insubstantial, seeing as the sheer thermal energy didn't cause Suigetsu to exude such, yet he was in point blank range, as well the TBB dwarfed his water construct.
[/td][/tr][/table]
[table="width: 550, align: center"][tr][td].. They used chakra to manipulate the nearby water sources. You can't just control water/shape it without using chakra manipulation..
[/td][/tr][/table]
[table="width: 550, align: center"][tr][td].. They used chakra to manipulate the nearby water sources. You can't just control water/shape it without using chakra manipulation..
[/td][/tr][/table]
Yes but there is a difference between using chakra to manipulate something and infusing chakra. In this instance of suiton they didnt infuse chakra into the water simply manipulated it.
[table="width: 550, align: center"][tr][td]I'm not seeing your point. You literally have to infuse your chakra into something to manipulate it (e.g. Sandaime Kazekage's Iron Sand). Or else it wouldn't be possible to manipulate the water.
[/td][/tr][/table]
