[VS] Haku (Forbidden Technique) vs Zabuza (EZQ)
- Thread starter EZQ
- Start date
Forbidden Technique
Active member
It's not speculation when Haku literally has feats to back it up. It's also common sense. They're a team. Not teaching Haku any silent killing skills would hinder both of them in battle. The fact that Zabuza canonically stated that he taught Haku many skills (in addition to Haku operating fine in the mist) pretty much solidifies the notion.
Haku literally displayed his silent killing prowess here:
Zabuza releases the jutsu, and the next panel over, both Zabuza and Haku were shown to be disappearing within the mist. And note how Gai stated that the fog was getting thicker, and visibility was getting worse.
Then the very next page, we have Zabuza and Haku attacking in unison using silent killing. The two fodder had no idea until after they were hit, and neither did 3T Kakashi.
You must be registered for see images
Then the very next page, we have Zabuza and Haku attacking in unison using silent killing. The two fodder had no idea until after they were hit, and neither did 3T Kakashi.
You must be registered for see images
It's a manga fact that Haku knows silent killing, because it was literally done with Zabuza. There is nothing you can possibly disagree with. Haku concealed himself within the mist, just as Zabuza did, and then struck down the opponent without them (or 3T Kakashi) seeing him, just as Zabuza did. That is known as being an
You must be registered for see links
.@ bold, and Zabuza
You must be registered for see links
, so you don't really have a point. It wasn't the thickest fog to begin with. Um, no. The mist was still very thick [
You must be registered for see links
]-[
You must be registered for see links
]. Also false, Kakashi nor Zabuza were talking. Refer back to scan '1', Kakashi was already charging before Haku took any action. Yes, Lightning Blade was said to make noise, but Kakashi activated it 6 whole pages before he started to charge towards Zabuza and Haku did nothing until after the fact. Haku perceived something when Kakashi was alreadycharging, so the noise didn't make a difference. As I've established, Haku has silent killing and tracking feats. The manga specifically states: "In the previous fight, I wasn't just getting beaten like an idiot. I had Haku hiding in the background examining every aspect. Your interpretation isn't accurate with what the manga actually states, nor does it make sense. Haku just coincidentally showed up and at the end of the fight and started watching from there? No, not when it literally say's every aspect of the fight. Meaning, Haku had to of been analyzing the whole thing from beginning to end.
Not quite sure what you're trying to prove here, tbh. Haku knows silent killing. Established fact, when he used it in tandem with Zabuza himself. Unless you're implying Kakashi also proficiently knows silent killing; Haku's feats within the mist are definitely better than Kakashi's, given everything that I've already stated. Again, all irrelevant when Haku's Ice Mirrors can be utilized wayyyy faster then Zabuza's Hidden Mist. And since they're both blood lusted, Haku wins in who gets the first move.
(I'll get to the speed difference further down in my post).
Haku's speed had already been declining, and actions speak louder then words. Sasuke made it very clear that Haku was never aiming to kill [
You must be registered for see links
]. If he was, Sasuke would of been dead right there. Even at the end of it all, when Sakura was giving Sasuke credit for avoiding Haku's attacks, Sasuke made it very apparent that it wasn't his feat [
You must be registered for see links
]-[
You must be registered for see links
]. Sasuke knew Haku never wanted to kill any of them, and Naruto suddenly figured it out too [
You must be registered for see links
]. Haku basically just wanted to make them stronger, and to prepare them for the harsh shinobi world. It's Sasuke getting used to it, AFTER Haku's speed has been steadily declining. It wasn't the same at all lmao, rather a MASSIVE decline from the start of using it. At first, Haku was traveling so fast that Sasuke and Naruto stood still in time and were unable to comprehend what was even happening [
You must be registered for see links
]-[
You must be registered for see links
]. But after Haku's speed had already massively declined from maintaining the jutsu for so long, Sasuke with his own body speed was able to pretty much match Haku's [
You must be registered for see links
]. A clear difference in speed here. Furthermore, at Haku's peak speed, it took War-Arc Gai and Rock Lee to use a classified taijutsu move to stop Haku!
You must be registered for see images
Again, it took a classified taijutsu move that requires very fast body movement from Gai and Rock Lee. Do I need to mention how far above War-Arc Rock Lee and Gai are to Land of Waves Arc Sasuke? Especially whenDatabook IV said:
You must be registered for see links
already stomps that version of Sasuke? Smh. The speed that Sasuke was able to react to is nowhere near Haku's top speed. And you completely misinterpreted
You must be registered for see links
. Haku was referring to the speed at which he was currently moving at. It already declined so much, that he wouldn't be able to fight for much longer, since he was starting to run low on chakra and because Sasuke was starting to react to it. At this point, Haku has been maintaining this chakra taxing jutsu for over two chapters, so obviously his speed declined. It's there to aid my point, obviously.
The speed of thought is way faster then the speed of the bodies reaction. By the time Sasuke could slightly react, he was already surrounded by the mirrors. Anyways, I wasn't implying that Haku would do this to Zabuza, because he doesn't have to. A single mirror will suffice.
It's the best speed feat in part one, as far as I'm concerned. Faster then base Gai's shunshin [
You must be registered for see links
], who is faster then Kakashi (and obviously Zabuza); considering Haku made like 10+ different movements in an instant, while Gai only made one. Sasuke has only reacted to Haku after his speed massively declined, as I believe has been established more then once. Zabuza doesn't have a single chance at reacting to Haku's top speed. Hence why he admitted inferiority to it.
-Sasuke only mentally reacted, by the time he could physically react, he was already caught.
-Nothing supports Zabuza completely hiding from Haku in the mist.
-Wasn't implying that Haku creates an entire dome like he did to Sasuke, which is why I made the example of Kakashi.
Lol, manga disagrees
You must be registered for see links
You must be registered for see links
Sasuke was literally helpless when Haku was moving at his fastest. You're butchering the manga, badly.
All false, and addressed multiple times.
Yes, because Haku wasn't fighting anyone either. But alright, you're correct in saying that Zabuza didn't notice Kakashi until after Haku stopped him. Haku still shits though.
You misconstrued my point. Haku trumped War-Arc Kakashi's speed by intercepting him. Between the mirror spawning and Haku transporting last second, Haku destroyed Kakashi's speed, who is obviously shown to be a lot faster then Zabuza based on the conclusion of their clash. I'll break it down, since you clearly missed it.
-Take note and remember Zabuza's position in accordance with the Ice Mirror
You must be registered for see links
-From that very same position, Zabuza turns around, and swings at Kakashi
-Kakashi jumps backwards
You must be registered for see links
-Zabuza is seen still next to mirror, while Kakashi is like 5 or so meters away from when he dodged the blade
You must be registered for see links
-Zabuza initiates his charge before Kakashi starts his
You must be registered for see links
-Yet they meet directly in front of the Ice Mirror, from where I told you take note of
You must be registered for see links
Meaning, War-Arc Kakashi's speed>>>>Zabuza's. Yet, Haku could easily intercept Kakashi's speed; so Haku's Mirror speed literally shits on Zabuza's. Now that, that is established... Let's move on to reaction speed.
Haku can quite clearly react to her own Mirror transporting speed, which again, is faster then War-Arc Kakashi's speed. Haku could parry Rock Lee and Gai's kick [
You must be registered for see links
]. This feat absolutely shits on any reaction feat Zabuza has displayed. Not only did Haku block a fast classified taijutsu move (refer back to the DB scan) by two taijutsu masters; Haku did it while already traveling at extremely high speeds right into the fast kicks, with his arms originally behind his back [
You must be registered for see links
]. Also, I have no reason to believe that Kakashi's striking speed is any faster then Gai and Rock Lee's.So, in an attacking manner, Haku would instantly spawn the mirror(s) (like against Kakashi) and transport out of it faster then Zabuza can physically react based on the underlining fact that he doesn't have any spectacular reaction feats, in addition to the fact that Haku's Ice Mirror speed>War-Arc Kakashi>>>Zabuza's.
-That is not striking speed
-That is not Haku traveling out of the mirrors to attack, like so [
You must be registered for see links
]-That is not Haku in blood lusted kill mode
That is not even close to the same scenario I'm suggesting. And since you don't know hat striking speed is, here you go:
You must be registered for see images
They have more or less equal striking speed (which doesn't help Zabuza's case, since Haku is already vastly superior in terms of speed and reaction).
Absolutely not. The scenario with Sai is not comparable in the slightest. 3T Kakashi had no time to notice any change in air temperature or snow fall from the Ice Mirror forming, so neither will Zabuza. He is not on par with Kakashi in terms of reaction or anything relating to speed, and Haku was shown to be faster then Kakashi when he easily intercepted him. So once again, Haku will easily spawn a mirror behind Zabuza, transport out of it from Zabuza's blind spot, and aim to stab (not throw) with the needles through his critical areas. To suggest that Zabuza can properly react and defend against this, would then imply that Zabuza>>>3T Kakashi, Rock Lee, and Gai in perception, mental reaction, body reaction, body speed, and taijutsu. All in fact, are laughably false.
If Haku's striking speed is slow, then so is Zabuza's. So you don't have a point.
>Manga disagrees, and already addressed
>Manga disagrees, and already addressed
>Manga disagrees, and already addressed
>Manga disagrees, and already addressed
I'll conclude with Haku low-diffs.
Last edited:
Unorthodox
Active member
Man think about how power levels went to hell. Here we've debating people killing eachother using clone feints, needles, water jutsus, ninja techniques.
Try to use that logic on war arc debates. Lol. Now it's up to who has the biggest susano or more rikudo chakra
Try to use that logic on war arc debates. Lol. Now it's up to who has the biggest susano or more rikudo chakra
KidGamer65
Active member
Awards
Here we go.
Major Points of the Debate
-Haku's speed.
-Zabuza's speed in relation to Haku's reaction speed.
-Haku's ability to fight in the mist.
Points Made by Both Debaters
I'm just going to go through each major point and show who made their case the best and actually proved their argument, and who didn't.
Verdict
If I missed anything, tell me. But please make sure whatever you are saying I missed actually matters when it comes to the outcome of the match. So basically the major points.
Major Points of the Debate
-Haku's speed.
-Zabuza's speed in relation to Haku's reaction speed.
-Haku's ability to fight in the mist.
Points Made by Both Debaters
I'm just going to go through each major point and show who made their case the best and actually proved their argument, and who didn't.
-EZQ said that Haku never touches Zabuza because Wave Arc Sasuke was able to evade Haku's attacks with his Sharingan, and Zabuza>>Wave Arc Sasuke. Latter is true, the former is false as FT has shown. Feats against 3-Tomoe Kakashi during the War and the workings of Haku's ability along with some statements from Naruto and Sasuke, the latter especially since he showed that he couldn't take credit for avoiding Haku's attacks, made it clear that Haku was only being reacted to due to a combination of his jutsu's weakness and the fact that he wasn't striking to kill at any moment. As for the Kakashi feat, FT showed that Haku could travel from the mirror to intercept Kakashi's charge meaning Haku traveled from the mirror to the middle of Kakashi and Zabuza before Kakashi could cross a foot, (in case anyone was thinking it's invalid due to it being interception, you now know that you are wrong) and FT also showed that Kakashi>>Zabuza in speed as they charged at the same time, but Kakashi crossed his distance while Zabuza was practically in the same general spot. Zabuza only moved past Haku's body, which isn't even up to 3 feet away from his original position, not even up to 2. So that puts Haku's Mirror Blitz>>Kakashi's Raikiri Charge>>>Zabuza's charge in speed. So FT wins the first major point. Haku's speed is too fast for Zabuza to evade or properly block from his blindspot
-As for Haku's ability to fight in the mist, FT's points pretty much put a nail in EZQ's argument. He showed feats of Haku and Zabuza performing a coordinated silent kill attack. He showed a scan stating that Zabuza taught him many skills and he showed another scan showing that zabuza is an expert. No reason why Haku doesn't know Silent Killing and no reason why he'd be as handicapped as Kakashi was in the mist. EZQ's talking and Raikiri making noise points were also handled. Bloodlust makes this irrelevant anyway.
-EZQ claimed that Haku's reaction speed was inferior to Zabuza's, but I don't recall seeing any actual evidence to substantiate that point. FT however posted scans of him reacting to Gai's kick while moving at his top speed, and there is no feat Zabuza has that is superior to that, or rather superior enough to let him evade Haku's attacks from the blindspot like EZQ claimed. EZQ claimed that Haku's striking speed was slow, FT shut it down with a scan of him matching Zabuza. FT showed a scan of them striking at the same time anyway and the scan EZQ provided wasn't even striking speed making that point of his invalid anyway. And I really didn't like the attempt to use the Taijutsu stat as a representative of striking speed when Taijutsu is more than just how fast you can strike.
Verdict
FT wins, decisively. At the end of the day, he showed that Haku can move faster than someone who already moves much faster than Zabuza himself does and EZQ failed to provide reasoning outside of the Haku vs. Sasuke fight to contest to this speed gap, meaning he failed to prove that he can evade or block if Haku comes from his blindspot.
If I missed anything, tell me. But please make sure whatever you are saying I missed actually matters when it comes to the outcome of the match. So basically the major points.
Unorthodox
Active member
No its just that even when '' low on chakra'' if wave arc sasuke is considering a threat Haku is a joke in all aspects.
I Hate when people say ooh i hate that the characters get so strong what about the old manga pages stfu if a manga last for 15 years the power leves are bound to sky rocketed from what the first real arc of the show.
Of course FT won by kidgamer's judgement
~Ethereal~
Active member
Awards
