Germans anger the neo-Ottoman state

[CrimsonReaper]

Erdogan is a despotic tyrant leader who also happens to have rigged the turkish presendetial elections this year. I hope he gets impeached. The turks are great people.[/QUOTE]

Maybe in some other universe. 400 years my country was under Otoman empire so we know from history what kind of people they are.

I've been to turkey and i've got nothing but good things to say about them they're nice and hospitable people. By your logic, americans english german or any country with a record of invading other countries means that their people must be savages lmao honestly this is so pathetic.

 

[Narushima]

Im curious as to what the Muslim opinion of a 'Zionist' is anyway...according to Muslim scripture both are Abrahamic in lineage, and Saladin at least seemed to tolerate them as did Ala ad-Daula...

David Hume has probably given the most accurate summary of that religion I have ever seen in my life:

You must be registered for see links

"The admirers and follows of the ALCORAN insist on the excellent moral precepts interspersed throughout that wild and absurd performance. But it is to be supposed, that the ARABIC words, which correspond to the ENGLISH, equity, justice, temperance, meekness, charity, were such as, from the constant use of that tongue, must always be taken in a good sense; and it would have argued the greatest ignorance, not of morals, but of language, to have mentioned them with any epithets, besides those of applause and approbation. But would we know, whether the pretended prophet had really attained a just sentiment of morals? Let us attend to his narration; and we shall soon find, that he bestows praise on such instances of treachery, inhumanity, cruelty, revenge, bigotry, as are utterly incompatible with civilized society. No steady rule of right seems there to be attended to; and every action is blamed or praised, so far only as it is beneficial or hurtful to the true believers."

As long as the Jews 'know their place,' i.e. are "made humble" to use Quranic terminology, then they are good subservient 'people of the book,' i.e. good slaves.

If, on the other hand, they attempt to defend an autonomous and free territory independent of Islamic hegemonic rule then I suppose this is their destiny (Sahih Muslim Book 041, Number 6981):

You must be registered for see links

"Ibn 'Umar reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: You will fight against the Jews and you will kill them until even a stone would say: Come here, Muslim, there is a Jew (hiding himself behind me) ; kill him."

So it's just as David Hume says: "every action is blamed or praised, so far only as it is beneficial or hurtful to the true believers."

 

[nefraiko]

And let's not pretend that either you or I are as impartial as we'd like others to think us.

See, my attitude toward Sunni Islam and every state associated with it parallels your attitude toward the west or even Israel - although perhaps that's a bit extreme since your average Muslim has more respect for a pig than the Jews oops I mean the "zionists!"

just to be clear, I'm not an average muslim because I'm not shii and not 100% sunni because I rely mainly on the Quran as it is the only thing that's sure 100% for me and that makes sense 100% for my sceptical mind, I can't say the same for some of the sunna as I find in some of it contradictions and things that don't make sense to me. sunna is like the christians Bible, writen hundreds of years after the prophet, writen by men. also, I find most of the sunna irrelevent for me, as it contains information I absolutely don't need.

yes you're right I'm not neutral, I've come to the conclusion from the Quran that god tests people by other people, that is why on earth peace can't be achieved, and that is why there can't be one peaceful nation, and that is why there will always be war untill the end.
even if there is no war there will always be disagreement, for example the christians will never admit that they are wrong

so as a muslim I tend to defend Islam, even though it doesn't need my protection, but whatever...hey ! that doesn't mean that I protect the muslims, as they can be wrong...

I also believe that the world is made of "complex systems" and that every matter is particular and that you definetly can't generalize.
I said that Turkey doesn't have to admit its genocides, I didn't say that I support Turkey...**** Turkey why should I support them ? I just support myself I don't do politics.

the jews: what do you want to say here man ? muslims know very well the difference between zionists and the jews just look at how muslims lived with the jews to know how they respect them, I read in the Quran that a muslim can marry the people of the book, I didn't read anywhere that a muslim can marry a pig.

the zionists however, I don't respect at all. judaism is a religion, zionism is a political movement. many jews don't like zionists. but you know, in the Quran god says that he tests also by giving power to men, to see what they do with it, only to take it after, usually when the powerfull begins to think that he is all powerfull. you can observe this pattern from the cycle of civilizations.

I just live my life and try not to fail that's all, I leave the humans to god.

 

[Dissonant Values]

David Hume has probably given the most accurate summary of that religion I have ever seen in my life:

You must be registered for see links

"The admirers and follows of the ALCORAN insist on the excellent moral precepts interspersed throughout that wild and absurd performance. But it is to be supposed, that the ARABIC words, which correspond to the ENGLISH, equity, justice, temperance, meekness, charity, were such as, from the constant use of that tongue, must always be taken in a good sense; and it would have argued the greatest ignorance, not of morals, but of language, to have mentioned them with any epithets, besides those of applause and approbation. But would we know, whether the pretended prophet had really attained a just sentiment of morals? Let us attend to his narration; and we shall soon find, that he bestows praise on such instances of treachery, inhumanity, cruelty, revenge, bigotry, as are utterly incompatible with civilized society. No steady rule of right seems there to be attended to; and every action is blamed or praised, so far only as it is beneficial or hurtful to the true believers."

As long as the Jews 'know their place,' i.e. are "made humble" to use Quranic terminology, then they are good subservient 'people of the book,' i.e. good slaves.

If, on the other hand, they attempt to defend an autonomous and free territory independent of Islamic hegemonic rule then I suppose this is their destiny (Sahih Muslim Book 041, Number 6981):

You must be registered for see links

"Ibn 'Umar reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: You will fight against the Jews and you will kill them until even a stone would say: Come here, Muslim, there is a Jew (hiding himself behind me) ; kill him."

So it's just as David Hume says: "every action is blamed or praised, so far only as it is beneficial or hurtful to the true believers."

I was honestly waiting for you to quote Hume...

Or Schopenhauer for that matter.

I myself prefer Kant's view on religion, that it serves as a necessary imposer of ethics on a species that is intrinsically prone to corruption

 

[nefraiko]

David Hume has probably given the most accurate summary of that religion I have ever seen in my life:

You must be registered for see links

"The admirers and follows of the ALCORAN insist on the excellent moral precepts interspersed throughout that wild and absurd performance. But it is to be supposed, that the ARABIC words, which correspond to the ENGLISH, equity, justice, temperance, meekness, charity, were such as, from the constant use of that tongue, must always be taken in a good sense; and it would have argued the greatest ignorance, not of morals, but of language, to have mentioned them with any epithets, besides those of applause and approbation. But would we know, whether the pretended prophet had really attained a just sentiment of morals? Let us attend to his narration; and we shall soon find, that he bestows praise on such instances of treachery, inhumanity, cruelty, revenge, bigotry, as are utterly incompatible with civilized society. No steady rule of right seems there to be attended to; and every action is blamed or praised, so far only as it is beneficial or hurtful to the true believers."

As long as the Jews 'know their place,' i.e. are "made humble" to use Quranic terminology, then they are good subservient 'people of the book,' i.e. good slaves.

If, on the other hand, they attempt to defend an autonomous and free territory independent of Islamic hegemonic rule then I suppose this is their destiny (Sahih Muslim Book 041, Number 6981):

You must be registered for see links

"Ibn 'Umar reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: You will fight against the Jews and you will kill them until even a stone would say: Come here, Muslim, there is a Jew (hiding himself behind me) ; kill him."

So it's just as David Hume says: "every action is blamed or praised, so far only as it is beneficial or hurtful to the true believers."

yeah sure, if some people who call themselves "jews", aka zionists, want to make their own state aka israel in a land where other people already live, aka palestine. sure then I believe they should be fought.
of course islam commands the believers to fight whoever agresses them, I don't understand how you condemn muslims using that argument.
are you a zionist ? ah sorry let me rephrase the question, are you a jew from race, and supporting israel ?

 

[Pumpkin Ninja]

Why don't they just admit it, even if they don't think they committed a genocide. You can clearly see they're being painted as bad guys and I'm sure in a few years, the west will treat them as such.

I mean, it's not like you have to serve jail time over it. In Canada, we learn about the horrible history of residential schools for like a week in grade 9 of high school at most. We say it's horrible for like a minute then move on with our lives.

Basically the question: Would you rather be right or happy?

David Hume has probably given the most accurate summary of that religion I have ever seen in my life:

You must be registered for see links

"The admirers and follows of the ALCORAN insist on the excellent moral precepts interspersed throughout that wild and absurd performance. But it is to be supposed, that the ARABIC words, which correspond to the ENGLISH, equity, justice, temperance, meekness, charity, were such as, from the constant use of that tongue, must always be taken in a good sense; and it would have argued the greatest ignorance, not of morals, but of language, to have mentioned them with any epithets, besides those of applause and approbation. But would we know, whether the pretended prophet had really attained a just sentiment of morals? Let us attend to his narration; and we shall soon find, that he bestows praise on such instances of treachery, inhumanity, cruelty, revenge, bigotry, as are utterly incompatible with civilized society. No steady rule of right seems there to be attended to; and every action is blamed or praised, so far only as it is beneficial or hurtful to the true believers."

As long as the Jews 'know their place,' i.e. are "made humble" to use Quranic terminology, then they are good subservient 'people of the book,' i.e. good slaves.

If, on the other hand, they attempt to defend an autonomous and free territory independent of Islamic hegemonic rule then I suppose this is their destiny (Sahih Muslim Book 041, Number 6981):

You must be registered for see links

"Ibn 'Umar reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: You will fight against the Jews and you will kill them until even a stone would say: Come here, Muslim, there is a Jew (hiding himself behind me) ; kill him."

So it's just as David Hume says: "every action is blamed or praised, so far only as it is beneficial or hurtful to the true believers."

Isn't that hadith you mentioned more of a prophecy than a command? The book of hadith that it is from refers to the time close to the day of judgement. It also mentions that Muslims will be the ones to kill each other and destroy themselves.

 

[Narushima]

yeah sure, if some people who call themselves "jews", aka zionists, want to make their own state aka israel in a land where other people already live, aka palestine. sure then I believe they should be fought.
of course islam commands the believers to fight whoever agresses them, I don't understand how you condemn muslims using that argument.
are you a zionist ? ah sorry let me rephrase the question, are you a jew from race, and supporting israel ?

You will be amused then my friend since I'm an Englishman who many Jews would probably call an "anti-Semite" because frankly, I couldn't care less about Israel, and would prefer that the western world stay the hell out of the entirety of the Middle East.

I just like calling a spade a spade so I call Islam an intrinsically anti-Jewish ideology because it is that, that is the simple Truth. In fact Islam is an inherently "us" vs "them" worldview and it's probably comparable to something like communism in its hostility to "them."

Nevertheless, your business is your business and to tell you the truth, the only end-game in sight for that region I can see is either that the Jews will ethnically cleanse all the Arabs from the territories they claim as their ancestral land ('Greater Israel') or the Jews themselves will get slaughtered and cleansed by the Muslims there. I have no particular fondness for either of those scenarios but I do know that there was a historical time when there were no Arabs in the region now known as "Palestine" so while I'm not on Israel's side, I'm not on your side either, I'm afraid.

And my point was not to refer to Israel specifically but to the nature of Islam.

See to Islam the world can be divided into "Dar-al-Islam," the house of Islam and the "Dar-al-harab" or the house of war.

I don't care about Israel but I will not let my England become subservient to Islam much less Islamic territory. I will not let my Europe suffer that fate either.

I will fight and kill as many Muslims as I have too, and will die doing so, but I will not let my land become "Dar-al-Islam," how does that sound?

Isn't that hadith you mentioned more of a prophecy than a command? The book of hadith that it is from refers to the time close to the day of judgement. It also mentions that Muslims will be the ones to kill each other and destroy themselves.

Judging by the way that Islamic clerics and jihadists tend to quote it, I would say it's both, i.e., it's a self-fulfilling prophecy.

 

[Pumpkin Ninja]

You will be amused then my friend since I'm an Englishman who many Jews would probably call an "anti-Semite" because frankly, I couldn't care less about Israel, and would prefer that the western world stay the hell out of the entirety of the Middle East.

I just like calling a spade a spade so I call Islam an intrinsically anti-Jewish ideology because it is that, that is the simple Truth. In fact Islam is an inherently "us" vs "them" worldview and it's probably comparable to something like communism in its hostility to "them."

Nevertheless, your business is your business and to tell you the truth, the only end-game in sight for that region I can see is either that the Jews will ethnically cleanse all the Arabs from the territories they claim as their ancestral land ('Greater Israel') or the Jews themselves will get slaughtered and cleansed by the Muslims there. I have no particular fondness for either of those scenarios but I do know that there was a historical time when there were no Arabs in the region now known as "Palestine" so while I'm not on Israel's side, I'm not on your side either, I'm afraid.

And my point was not to refer to Israel specifically but to the nature of Islam.

See to Islam the world can be divided into "Dar-al-Islam," the house of Islam and the "Dar-al-harab" or the house of war.

I don't care about Israel but I will not let my England become subservient to Islam much less Islamic territory. I will not let my Europe suffer that fate either.

I will fight and kill as many Muslims as I have too, and will die doing so, but I will not let my land become "Dar-al-Islam," how does that sound?





Judging by the way that Islamic clerics and jihadists tend to quote it, I would say it's both, i.e., it's a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Well, those who are trying to self-fulfill the prophecy are doing a good job because at the same time, they're definitely destroying themselves too.

Also, the two houses of which you mentioned are not in the Qur'an or the Hadith which are the only real sources to follow for Muslims.

Im curious as to what the Muslim opinion of a 'Zionist' is anyway...according to Muslim scripture both are Abrahamic in lineage, and Saladin at least seemed to tolerate them as did Ala ad-Daula...

I thought it was anyone who supports Israel and I think that's generally what other Muslims think as well. Personally, I don't care about that stuff though.

 

[nefraiko]

I just like calling a spade a spade so I call Islam an intrinsically (1)anti-Jewish ideology because it is that, that is the simple Truth. In fact Islam is an inherently "us" vs "them" worldview and it's probably comparable to something like communism in its hostility to "them."

(2)See to Islam the world can be divided into "Dar-al-Islam," the house of Islam and the "Dar-al-harab" or the house of war.

I don't care about Israel but I will not let my England become subservient to Islam much less Islamic territory. I will not let my Europe suffer that fate either
(3)I will fight and kill as many Muslims as I have too, and will die doing so, but I will not let my land become "Dar-al-Islam," how does that sound?

(1) : it is not an anti-jewish ideology, where are your facts ?

(2) : every system is hostile to the other system that aims to destroy it. islam is not just a religion but a nation, god gave mohammad the power to stand against the ones who wanted to kill him, from the begining of islam, the non believers tried to destroy the believers, that's the way it is.
every nation fights the other nations, with war, economy, etc. people are made to fight each other

but I don't remember that I've read somewhere that "dar al harb", have you some papers ?

(3) : sounds good, you do what you want and fight for what you want, the same goes for me.

 

[Narushima]

I was honestly waiting for you to quote Hume...

Or Schopenhauer for that matter.

I myself prefer Kant's view on religion, that it serves as a necessary imposer of ethics on a species that is intrinsically prone to corruption

You must be registered for see links

Schopenhauer is probably my all-time favorite philosopher so I will quote him for the benefit of those interested (from his magnum opus):

"Temples and churches, pagodas and mosques, in all countries and ages, in their splendour and spaciousness, testify to man's need for metaphysics, a need strong and ineradicable, which follows close on the physical. The man of a satirical frame of mind could of course add that this need for metaphysics is a modest fellow content with meagre fare. Sometimes it lets itself be satisfied with clumsy fables and absurd fairy-tales. If only they are imprinted early enough, they are for man adequate explanations of his existence and supports for his morality.

Consider the Koran, for example; this wretched book was sufficient to start a world-religion, to satisfy the metaphysical need for countless millions for twelve hundred years, to become the basis of their morality and of a remarkable contempt for death, and also to inspire them to bloody wars and the most extensive conquests. In this book we find the saddest and poorest form of theism. Much may be lost in translation, but I have not been able to discover in it one single idea of value. Such things show that the capacity for metaphysics does not go hand in hand with the need for it . . . ."

(1) : it is not an anti-jewish ideology, where are your facts ?

(2) : every system is hostile to the other system that aims to destroy it. islam is not just a religion but a nation, god gave mohammad the power to stand against the ones who wanted to kill him, from the begining of islam, the non believers tried to destroy the believers, that's the way it is.
every nation fights the other nations, with war, economy, etc. people are made to fight each other

but I don't remember that I've read somewhere that "dar al harb", have you some papers ?

(3) : sounds good, you do what you want and fight for what you want, the same goes for me.

1) You could write a book on that, I'm sure the Jews have written plenty books on that topic already, but I know that people like to see what they want to see so let's leave it at what I have already written.

2 and 3):

nefraiko I applaud you! And I greatly respect you now, you know why? You are a very honest and discerning guy.

See what makes me angry isn't honest people like you nefraiko but lying and deceiving - including self-deceiving folk who deceive themselves - Muslims here in the west who keep babbling on and on about how Islam is in reality a completely non-hostile and non-destructive entity more akin to utopian 21st liberal-leftism.

Those Muslims are like wolves in sheep's clothing because they conceal the nature of their religion and the world.

War is not only the life of trade but it is the trade of life. It is natural for humans to go to war over the things they want to protect and believe in.

Muslims are perfectly free to attempt to impose their religion on my ancestral holy land - Europe - in accordance with the nature of their religion but I am perfectly free to fight to the last drop of blood to prevent that.

That is the truth of this world.

That you acknowledge it makes you someone I now respect nefraiko.

 

[Pumpkin Ninja]

You must be registered for see links

Schopenhauer is probably my all-time favorite philosopher so I will quote him for the benefit of those interested (from his magnum opus):

"Temples and churches, pagodas and mosques, in all countries and ages, in their splendour and spaciousness, testify to man's need for metaphysics, a need strong and ineradicable, which follows close on the physical. The man of a satirical frame of mind could of course add that this need for metaphysics is a modest fellow content with meagre fare. Sometimes it lets itself be satisfied with clumsy fables and absurd fairy-tales. If only they are imprinted early enough, they are for man adequate explanations of his existence and supports for his morality.

Consider the Koran, for example; this wretched book was sufficient to start a world-religion, to satisfy the metaphysical need for countless millions for twelve hundred years, to become the basis of their morality and of a remarkable contempt for death, and also to inspire them to bloody wars and the most extensive conquests. In this book we find the saddest and poorest form of theism. Much may be lost in translation, but I have not been able to discover in it one single idea of value. Such things show that the capacity for metaphysics does not go hand in hand with the need for it . . . ."







1) You could write a book on that, I'm sure the Jews have written plenty books on that topic already, but I know that people like to see what they want to see so let's leave it at what I have already written.

2 and 3):

nefraiko I applaud you! And I greatly respect you now, you know why? You are a very honest and discerning guy.

See what makes me angry isn't honest people like you nefraiko but lying and deceiving - including self-deceiving folk who deceive themselves - Muslims here in the west who keep babbling on and on about how Islam is in reality a completely non-hostile and non-destructive entity more akin to utopian 21st liberal-leftism.

Those Muslims are like wolves in sheep's clothing because they conceal the nature of their religion and the world.

War is not only the life of trade but it is the trade of life. It is natural for humans to go to war over the things they want to protect and believe in.

Muslims are perfectly free to attempt to impose their religion on my ancestral holy land - Europe - in accordance with the nature of their religion but I am perfectly free to fight to the last drop of blood to prevent that.

That is the truth of this world.

That you acknowledge it makes you someone I now respect nefraiko.

Are they still wolves in sheep's clothing if they align Islam with leftism out of ignorance? Because the amount of ignorance I've found from some Muslims on the topic is hilarious xD. And I mean doing that is much better than aligning themselves with Wahhabi Islam.

I agree with your last statement on us being free to do what we want and you the same. But am I not free to make it clear I have no intention of violent expansion like some other Muslims? Or are you still required to 'defend' yourself from me as well?

 

[nefraiko]

You must be registered for see links

Schopenhauer is probably my all-time favorite philosopher so I will quote him for the benefit of those interested (from his magnum opus):

"Temples and churches, pagodas and mosques, in all countries and ages, in their splendour and spaciousness, testify to man's need for metaphysics, a need strong and ineradicable, which follows close on the physical. The man of a satirical frame of mind could of course add that this need for metaphysics is a modest fellow content with meagre fare. Sometimes it lets itself be satisfied with clumsy fables and absurd fairy-tales. If only they are imprinted early enough, they are for man adequate explanations of his existence and supports for his morality.

Consider the Koran, for example; this wretched book was sufficient to start a world-religion, to satisfy the metaphysical need for countless millions for twelve hundred years, to become the basis of their morality and of a remarkable contempt for death, and also to inspire them to bloody wars and the most extensive conquests. In this book we find the saddest and poorest form of theism. Much may be lost in translation, but I have not been able to discover in it one single idea of value. Such things show that the capacity for metaphysics does not go hand in hand with the need for it . . . ."







1) You could write a book on that, I'm sure the Jews have written plenty books on that topic already, but I know that people like to see what they want to see so let's leave it at what I have already written.

2 and 3):

nefraiko I applaud you! And I greatly respect you now, you know why? You are a very honest and discerning guy.

See what makes me angry isn't honest people like you nefraiko but lying and deceiving - including self-deceiving folk who deceive themselves - Muslims here in the west who keep babbling on and on about how Islam is in reality a completely non-hostile and non-destructive entity more akin to utopian 21st liberal-leftism.

Those Muslims are like wolves in sheep's clothing because they conceal the nature of their religion and the world.

War is not only the life of trade but it is the trade of life. It is natural for humans to go to war over the things they want to protect and believe in.

Muslims are perfectly free to attempt to impose their religion on my ancestral holy land - Europe - in accordance with the nature of their religion but I am perfectly free to fight to the last drop of blood to prevent that.

That is the truth of this world.

That you acknowledge it makes you someone I now respect nefraiko.

yeah but the war isn't only by killing, just don't simplify to much I remember that I told you that this world is made of complex systems. don't fall in the trap of simplification.

1) a muslim individual must live a peaceful life, respect his fellows and etc.

2) but the nation of islam, and its rulers, should seek for power and protect the nation, and also extend its influence over the world, by all means, economy, religion, lands...like every nation. just like england would claim the earth if it has the power to do it, just like america is expanding as much as it can now.

sure, every muslim wants the glory of the nation of islam, that's the dream of every muslim. just like every american wants the glory of america. that's why the eastern nations have worked so hard to divide the muslim countries and is making all of that chaos in the middle east. but that surely won't last forever.

that doesn't mean that the muslim near you wants your head, just like the american, the french, or the chinese near you doesn't want it. because, just like muslims, if french people or americans get the chance to invade england they will do it without second thoughts.

I'm happy that you respect me, and I also respect every honest person, just like you. but I must say that from what I read (shopenhauer or whatever that name is) that you have many wrong ideas about islam. I believe that you should document yourself more about islam before you make your mind on it.

read the islamic history, not only from eastern historians, but also from muslim historians to be really neutral.
read mohammad's story of life following the same method.
read the Quran, and it's explanations according to the contexts.

according to that shaupen...their is no information of value in the Quran ? a fairy tale ? does this sound honest to you ? does this sound methodologically accurate to you ?
don't answer on this question because we will turn this thread into a religion thread, I don't have the strengh to begin another debate that will solve nothing.

 

[Narushima]

Are they still wolves in sheep's clothing if they align Islam with leftism out of ignorance? Because the amount of ignorance I've found from some Muslims on the topic is hilarious xD. And I mean doing that is much better than aligning themselves with Wahhabi Islam.

I agree with your last statement on us being free to do what we want and you the same. But am I not free to make it clear I have no intention of violent expansion like some other Muslims? Or are you still required to 'defend' yourself from me as well?

No I have nothing against folk like you PN but sadly it is the nature of man to associate in tribal groupings.

George W. Bush is a retard but his "you are either with us or against us" mentality does accurately describe reality when it comes to war.

Those who fight in the name of Allah and his prophet to expand Dar-al-Islam will treat people like you with Bush's mentality, as they are indeed already doing in the Middle East - the Kurdish peshmerga are not the only ones deemed apostates; every once in a while, some Sunni village rebels against the caliphate and they are given the treatment of apostates, i.e. the males are beheaded and the females/children are taken into slavery.

There will be people, perhaps many people, on my side who will not allow the soldiers of Dar-al-Islam to hide behind supposed bystanders, and will try to break you if you let yourself be used as their shield.

When - if it comes to Canada (thought I think it unlikely it will happen there) - the storm comes, Europe will turn into what Syria is now - thanks to modern technological transport most civilians will have fled to other parts of the world leaving just people like me and nefraiko to fight to the death over the fate of European land.

Who knows maybe Israel or Iran or whatever will then just nuke us both - European nationalists and the soldiers of the caliphate. It's hard to predict the 21st century.

 

[nefraiko]

No I have nothing against folk like you PN but sadly it is the nature of man to associate in tribal groupings.

George W. Bush is a retard but his "you are either with us or against us" mentality does accurately describe reality when it comes to war.

Those who fight in the name of Allah and his prophet to expand Dar-al-Islam will treat people like you with Bush's mentality, as they are indeed already doing in the Middle East - the Kurdish peshmerga are not the only ones deemed apostates; every once in a while, some Sunni village rebels against the caliphate and they are given the treatment of apostates, i.e. the males are beheaded and the females/children are taken into slavery.

There will be people, perhaps many people, on my side who will not allow the soldiers of Dar-al-Islam to hide behind supposed bystanders, and will try to break you if you let yourself be used as their shield.

When - if it comes to Canada (thought I think it unlikely it will happen there) - the storm comes, Europe will turn into what Syria is now - thanks to modern technological transport most civilians will have fled to other parts of the world leaving just people like me and nefraiko to fight to the death over the fate of European land.

Who knows maybe Israel or Iran or whatever will then just nuke us both - European nationalists and the soldiers of the caliphate. It's hard to predict the 21st century.

man don't drag me with you in your delusions you went to far, the muslim terorrists who take heads and enslave women are the creation of your nations who perverted islam and made education hard to get for these people so they could create chaos in the middle east.
I clearly missunderstood your way of thinking I thought that you were a rational thinker but it turns out you're really not.
you're driven by hate, you hate the muslims, you choose to view us as barbars who rape women and take heads so that you can justify war against us that's fine, I don't have anything against that. but I don't think like you do.

 

[Narushima]

man don't drag me with you in your delusions you went to far, the muslim terorrists who take heads and enslave women are the creation of your nations who perverted islam and made education hard to get for these people so they could create chaos in the middle east.
I clearly missunderstood your way of thinking I thought that you were a rational thinker but it turns out you're really not.
you're driven by hate, you hate the muslims, you choose to view us as barbars who rape women and take heads so that you can justify war against us that's fine, I don't have anything against that. but I don't think like you do.

Come on nefraiko don't engage in that sort of apologetics now - "right hand's possessions" as the Quran calls them is perfectly legitimate in Islam. Your prophet beheaded every single adult male of that Jewish tribe that betrayed him and took all their women as "right hand's possessions."

The wars in the Middle East have largely been the doings of Jewish Neocons, their allies and the gravy train they've ingrained in the political zeitgeist of the US and western Europe - refer to Walt and Mearsheimer's classic "The Israel Lobby" for a book length discussion on that.

Recently the Koch brothers - White American business magnates - recognizing the shifting political zeitgeist that Donald Trump heralds decided to venture an attempt to give that shift an intellectual backbone, here is how the Jews are responding to that:

You must be registered for see links

"But on Wednesday, Eli Lake from Bloomberg reported that the Rubicon has been crossed. Serious Republican figures this week legitimated some of the most marginal figures in the US foreign policy landscape, to the detriment of US Jewry and Israel. In so doing they placed a question mark on the future of Republican and conservative support for Israel and on the position of American Jewry in American society."

Apparently anyone not in tune with the Jewish Neocon standard of foreign policy is a "crackpot" and "marginal" even if they are towering giants of figures like Walt and Mearsheimer who are professors at prestigious American universities (Walt is at Harvard) and have fathered entire schools of thought in the realist political school of thought.

This is the tip of the ice-berg of the hysteria if you've been following the Jewish and Neocon reactions to the shifting political zeitgeist in America.

See I belong in the same camp as the Koch brothers and Walt and Mearsheimer, and the people who want us to fight those wars in the Middle East hate people like me and Walt and Mearsheimer just as much as they hate you Muslims.

So that explanation of yours doesn't work.

 

[Pumpkin Ninja]

Come on nefraiko don't engage in that sort of apologetics now - "right hand's possessions" as the Quran calls them is perfectly legitimate in Islam. Your prophet beheaded every single adult male of that Jewish tribe that betrayed him and took all their women as "right hand's possessions."

The wars in the Middle East have largely been the doings of Jewish Neocons, their allies and the gravy train they've ingrained in the political zeitgeist of the US and western Europe - refer to Walt and Mearsheimer's classic "The Israel Lobby" for a book length discussion on that.

Recently the Koch brothers - White American business magnates - recognizing the shifting political zeitgeist that Donald Trump heralds decided to venture an attempt to give that shift an intellectual backbone, here is how the Jews are responding to that:

You must be registered for see links

"But on Wednesday, Eli Lake from Bloomberg reported that the Rubicon has been crossed. Serious Republican figures this week legitimated some of the most marginal figures in the US foreign policy landscape, to the detriment of US Jewry and Israel. In so doing they placed a question mark on the future of Republican and conservative support for Israel and on the position of American Jewry in American society."

Apparently anyone not in tune with the Jewish Neocon standard of foreign policy is a "crackpot" and "marginal" even if they are towering giants of figures like Walt and Mearsheimer who are professors at prestigious American universities (Walt is at Harvard) and have fathered entire schools of thought in the realist political school of thought.

This is the tip of the ice-berg of the hysteria if you've been following the Jewish and Neocon reactions to the shifting political zeitgeist in America.

See I belong in the same camp as the Koch brothers and Walt and Mearsheimer, and the people who want us to fight those wars in the Middle East hate people like me and Walt and Mearsheimer just as much as they hate you Muslims.

So that explanation of yours doesn't work.

Bruv, the extremists of Islam are created in chaos, not the other way around, and from that chaos comes sympathizers of said extremists in Western nations. The west makes it so clear they prefer the Middle East destabilized with savages running around rather than being secular. Whether it's because they're just following the order of the Jews or because they fear Muslims uniting and forming another empire, or simply to get to Iran, I don't know. Even the sunni/shia conflicts have been orchestrated at times. But this shit about us Muslims conquering you or attempting to will not be our faults alone. It will be you, the Jews, and the Muslims that will be the reason for the final hours. I can see now, the west trying to destabilize Turkey in a few years and it'll be under the guise of democracy and freeing Turkey from some psychopath named Erdogun killing his people.

Personally, I don't care about "conquering". I wish we could live in a world without persecution but I believe in the final time and the events that come before it are not pretty. You can see something bad happening, and unfortunately, I can see it too. I just wanna watch how this plays out.

As for your right hand possesses and beheadings, (I'm addressing it last since I don't want to get into that topic right now), yeah, slavery is allowed in times of war for Islam but the ruling was made clear that freeing slaves was the best option and that was to encourage the practice of ending it. Right now, in the Muslim world bar ISIS and others like them, slaves are not recognized as lawful. I thank the west for pressuring the Islamic world for that, though.

And as for beheadings, those are mild executions compared to the rest of the world in the Middle Ages. In times of war, executions were necessary back then.


If you're right and Islam is the only factor of why "Europe will be conquered", then I won't blame you for defending it. However, that is not reality. And I hope you'll realize that violence only begets violence so avoiding any escalations on both sides would be very important for peace.

 

[nefraiko]

Come on nefraiko don't engage in that sort of apologetics now - "right hand's possessions" as the Quran calls them is perfectly legitimate in Islam. Your prophet beheaded every single adult male of that Jewish tribe that betrayed him and took all their women as "right hand's possessions."

The wars in the Middle East have largely been the doings of Jewish Neocons, their allies and the gravy train they've ingrained in the political zeitgeist of the US and western Europe - refer to Walt and Mearsheimer's classic "The Israel Lobby" for a book length discussion on that.

Recently the Koch brothers - White American business magnates - recognizing the shifting political zeitgeist that Donald Trump heralds decided to venture an attempt to give that shift an intellectual backbone, here is how the Jews are responding to that:

You must be registered for see links

"But on Wednesday, Eli Lake from Bloomberg reported that the Rubicon has been crossed. Serious Republican figures this week legitimated some of the most marginal figures in the US foreign policy landscape, to the detriment of US Jewry and Israel. In so doing they placed a question mark on the future of Republican and conservative support for Israel and on the position of American Jewry in American society."

Apparently anyone not in tune with the Jewish Neocon standard of foreign policy is a "crackpot" and "marginal" even if they are towering giants of figures like Walt and Mearsheimer who are professors at prestigious American universities (Walt is at Harvard) and have fathered entire schools of thought in the realist political school of thought.

This is the tip of the ice-berg of the hysteria if you've been following the Jewish and Neocon reactions to the shifting political zeitgeist in America.

See I belong in the same camp as the Koch brothers and Walt and Mearsheimer, and the people who want us to fight those wars in the Middle East hate people like me and Walt and Mearsheimer just as much as they hate you Muslims.

So that explanation of yours doesn't work.

for the slaves in islam, I would like to say another time that you should study it in the right context. before islam the arabs were widely enslaving people, it was a deeply rooted economical system. a system that can't be changed over night because it was deeply fixed in the way the people used to think.
before Islam you didn't have to treat you slaves with justice, to be good to them. but after Islam it was an obligation for every muslim to treat his slaves with justice. and after Islam every muslim knows that what makes the difference between two humans is not the status but the "taqwa" : the fear of god.

islam didn't abolish slavery but restricted it. the fact is Islam reduced a lot slavery. it's just like corruption these days, you can't just get rid of it in a year. it's a long process.

the arguments you use against Islam are really bad, and easy to counter but I don't have the strengh to go on with you.
as I said, it's your business to think that islam is a barbaric religion and to fight it with all your might.

I didn't understand as I'd like to the part where you talk about the jews, but I think you don't like them eather.
okay.

 

[demon of the leaf]

Do you doubt there being a reason for that?

Perpetuate any groups past mistakes and you effectively cripple them.

Slavery and Racism in the US, Nazism and Anti-Semitism in Germany, Imperialism in the UK, African Colonialism and the French...

Take your pick.

Excuse me but slavery wasnt an american eclusive thing the entire world has done it and the diamonds mines in ghana still practice slavery and other countrys still use slavery even now

Racism is everywhere so it is again not an american only thing

Im not down playing what goes on or happened but you need to get your facts streight

 

[Conspirator.]

Turkey has regressed a lot under Erdogan's rule and it shows in this incident. As for Germany, this is somewhat extraneous to your thread, but it's becoming an out-and-out shithole because of people such as this:

[video=youtube;KK-U6Eaiz3g]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KK-U6Eaiz3g[/video]

 

[Narushima]

Bruv, the extremists of Islam are created in chaos, not the other way around, and from that chaos comes sympathizers of said extremists in Western nations. The west makes it so clear they prefer the Middle East destabilized with savages running around rather than being secular. Whether it's because they're just following the order of the Jews or because they fear Muslims uniting and forming another empire, or simply to get to Iran, I don't know. Even the sunni/shia conflicts have been orchestrated at times. But this shit about us Muslims conquering you or attempting to will not be our faults alone. It will be you, the Jews, and the Muslims that will be the reason for the final hours. I can see now, the west trying to destabilize Turkey in a few years and it'll be under the guise of democracy and freeing Turkey from some psychopath named Erdogun killing his people.

Personally, I don't care about "conquering". I wish we could live in a world without persecution but I believe in the final time and the events that come before it are not pretty. You can see something bad happening, and unfortunately, I can see it too. I just wanna watch how this plays out.

As for your right hand possesses and beheadings, (I'm addressing it last since I don't want to get into that topic right now), yeah, slavery is allowed in times of war for Islam but the ruling was made clear that freeing slaves was the best option and that was to encourage the practice of ending it. Right now, in the Muslim world bar ISIS and others like them, slaves are not recognized as lawful. I thank the west for pressuring the Islamic world for that, though.

And as for beheadings, those are mild executions compared to the rest of the world in the Middle Ages. In times of war, executions were necessary back then.


If you're right and Islam is the only factor of why "Europe will be conquered", then I won't blame you for defending it. However, that is not reality. And I hope you'll realize that violence only begets violence so avoiding any escalations on both sides would be very important for peace.

Looking at my previous posts I have to apologize for the pretentiousness of my language in this thread guys - I thought that if I used high-sounding language I'd minimize the chances of the thread getting deleted (as Islam threads usually do when they get politically incorrect) but clearly it was far more pretentious than it needed to be.

As for the chaos thing, I only partially accept that explanation. I look at groups like the Kurds and Hazara who have been genocidally brutalized and yet have never managed to produce the equivalents of the soldiers of the caliphate and I find that oft-peddled argument that interventionism is a sufficient condition for the Islamic state falling short.

I like to define something called a 'jihad quotient' that measures a peoples tendency to produce groups prone to fundamental Islamic militancy like the early Muslims or the Islamic state of today. Hazaras and Kurds have a low jihad quotient, Pashtuns have a high jihad quotient, and Sunni Arabs have an extremely, extremely high jihad quotient.

And don't worry PN Muslims won't be conquering anything anymore, that's certainly not my fear - I've explained why this is not possible in a previous thread about a world war that you posted in - asabiyya is the only reason you Muslims, especially the Arabs, were able to conquer anything.

Modern warfare is a very different beast and Muslims don't have the brains to even compete with Israel much less the entire western world - and I don't say that out of spite for Muslims, it's just what I recognize as the real world.

If things get very ugly, we'll have to nuke the Sunni world - biological weapons that can target specific ethnicities (they are already a theoretical possibility) might be cleaner. So yes things will probably get very ugly, I agree.

It saddens me that it looks like war is inevitable now. Had we not let that fifth column called the Neoconservative movement had its way and had we not allowed any Muslim immigration into our lands - which is a perfectly sensible policy for any nation wishing to preserve itself - this could have all been avoided.