Germans anger the neo-Ottoman state

Narushima

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I used to respect Turkey a la countries like Kazakhstan or Indonesia for not being a complete sharia cesspool but ever since the ascension of Sultan Erdogan and his neo-Ottoman Islamist party it has fallen below Iran - and only because I infinitely prefer Shiism to the more militant Sunni sect - on my personal list of countries ranked by esteem.

So I can only commend anyone who puts the proverbial middle finger in front of the neo-Ottoman state:



"Turkey recalled its ambassador to Germany on Thursday in protest against a parliament resolution declaring the 1915 massacre of Armenians by Ottoman forces a "genocide" at a time when Europe is looking for Ankara's help in the migrant crisis.

Turkey rejects the idea that the killings of Christian Armenians during World War One amounted to a genocide. Its Deputy Prime Minister said the vote was a "historic mistake".

Even before Germany's Bundestag lower house of parliament passed the symbolic resolution by an overwhelming majority, Turkey's prime minister had condemned the motion as "irrational" and said it would test the friendship between the NATO partners.

Within two hours, Turkey had recalled its ambassador to Germany for consultations and summoned a top German diplomat to the foreign ministry in Ankara, according to officials.

Armed riot police were deployed outside the German consulate in Istanbul, near Taksim square, in case of protests.

President Tayyip Erdogan, in Nairobi, said the resolution would seriously affect relations with Germany and the government would discuss what steps Ankara would take.

"The way to close the dark pages in your own history is not by besmirching the history of other countries with irresponsible and groundless parliamentary decisions," tweeted Foreign Minister Mevlut Cavusoglu.

A spokesman for the ruling AK Party responded swiftly to the vote, saying it had "seriously damaged" relations.

The timing could not be worse for Merkel, who is relying on the success of an EU-Turkey deal she has championed to stem the flow of migrants to Europe in return for cash, visa-free travel rights and accelerated talks on EU membership.

In an indication of how sensitive the issue was, she did not take part in the vote due to "public engagements". Later, however, she put the emphasis on the close ties between the two countries.

"Even if we have a difference of opinion on an individual matter, the breadth of our links, our friendship, our strategic ties, is great," she told reporters when asked about it.

A poll for ARD television showed that 74 percent of Germans support the term 'genocide' to describe the killings. Some 57 percent think the resolution will hurt ties with Turkey.

Merkel is also keen to avoid raising tensions with Germany's roughly 3.5 million-strong Turkish community

"I want to say to people with Turkish roots: you're not only welcome here but you are part of this country," said Merkel.

Over a thousand Turks demonstrated against the resolution on Saturday in front of the Reichstag building in Berlin.

"I don't think this is the right step," said Murat Kayman of Germany's DITIB Turkish-Islamic group before the vote. He said a European "blind spot" could explain the vehemence of the Turkish reaction to the accusation of genocide.

The nature and scale of the killings remain highly contentious. Turkey accepts that many Armenians died in partisan fighting beginning in 1915, but denies that up to 1.5 million were killed and that this constituted an act of genocide, a term used by many Western historians and foreign parliaments.

MIGRANT DEAL THREAT?

Several German lawmakers said they did not want to point a finger at the current Turkish government but rather wanted to bolster reconciliation efforts between Turkey and Armenia.

"We know from our own experience how difficult and painful it is to work through the past ... but only in this way can human trust and strength grow," Social Democrat Rolf Muetzenich said in parliament before the vote.

Armenia welcomed the resolution. The foreign ministry said Turkish authorities continued "to obstinately reject the undeniable fact of genocide".

Nearly a dozen other EU countries have passed similar resolutions. French lawmakers officially recognized the Armenian massacre as a genocide in 2001, infuriating Turkey.

Ankara also threatened a "total rupture" with France over a 2012 law outlawing denial of the genocide but France's highest legal authority ruled that was an unconstitutional violation of freedom of speech, prompting a thaw in relations.

The German resolution says the Armenians' fate exemplified "the history of mass exterminations, ethnic cleansing, deportations and yes, genocide, which marked the 20th century in such a terrible way."

It also acknowledges that the German Empire, then a military ally of the Ottomans, did nothing to stop the killings."
 

CrimsonReaper

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Erdogan is a despotic tyrant leader who also happens to have rigged the turkish presendetial elections this year. I hope he gets impeached. The turks are great people.
 

Dissonant Values

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Got some bad news... Turkey has been a cesspool since 1456...

They've never been known for their tolerance, though their EU seat keeps them cordial.

Its interesting though since the Armenian Genocide is almost globally seen as a gross violation of human rights and state sanctioned cleansing on par with Bosnia.
 
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CrimsonReaper

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Got some bad news... Turkey has been a cesspool since 1456...

They've never been known for their tolerance, though their EU seat keeps them cordial.

Its interesting though since the Armenian Genocide is almost globally seen as a gross violation of human rights and state sanctioned cleansing on par with Bosnia.
i think that applies to most countries at the time.
 

Dissonant Values

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i think that applies to most countries at the time.
Ehhhh idk about that...

The Ottoman Empire is the reason we have "Crimes Against Humanity" for their genocide of the Armenian, Assyrian, Greek, and Romani people during the early 20th century...

We wouldnt see genocide on this scale until the German Holocaust and later ethnic cleansings by the USSR
 

CrimsonReaper

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Ehhhh idk about that...

The Ottoman Empire is the reason we have "Crimes Against Humanity" for their genocide of the Armenian, Assyrian, Greek, and Romani people during the early 20th century...

We wouldnt see genocide on this scale until the German Holocaust and later ethnic cleansings by the USSR
The British empire has caused as many as 150 million deaths also dramatically increased harvest taxations that also killed 29 million people due to famine which ultimately forced indians to eat human flesh in order to survive.
 

Dissonant Values

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The British empire has caused as many as 150 million deaths also dramatically increased harvest taxations that also killed 29 million people due to famine which ultimately forced indians to eat human flesh in order to survive.
True. Its also said the British Empire allowed the Irish Famine to escalate by blocking trade. Prior to the famine Ireland produced enough flax and cloth to feed and clothe its population nine times over but relied heavily on the British for trade.
 
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Narushima

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The British empire has caused as many as 150 million deaths also dramatically increased harvest taxations that also killed 29 million people due to famine which ultimately forced indians to eat human flesh in order to survive.
And nobody denies that.

You know the great Englishman George Orwell who wrote that iconic novel about dystopia framed Turkey's modus operandi in literary terms thus:



Turkey is trying to shove the inconvenient parts of its own history down memory hole.

The only other state doing that in the 21st century is Japan which is also trying to send down its WWII era historical treatment of its neighbours down memory hole.

By contrast European history nowadays, even as it is taught in our schools, has become equivalent to its criminal record - after all, do you even know one bit about western history aside from those negative aspects involving treatment of others, CrimsonReaper?

I rather doubt it.
 
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Dissonant Values

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And nobody denies that.

You know the great Englishman George Orwell who wrote that iconic novel about dystopia framed Turkey's modus operandi in literary terms thus:



Turkey is trying to shove the inconvenient parts of its own history down memory hole.

The only other state doing that in the 21st century is Japan which is also trying to send down its WWII era historical treatment of its neighbours down memory hole.

By contrast European history nowadays, even as it is taught in our schools, has become equivalent to its criminal record - after all, do you even know one bit about western history aside from those negative aspects involving treatment of others, CrimsonReaper?

I rather doubt it.
Do you doubt there being a reason for that?

Perpetuate any groups past mistakes and you effectively cripple them.

Slavery and Racism in the US, Nazism and Anti-Semitism in Germany, Imperialism in the UK, African Colonialism and the French...

Take your pick.
 

CrimsonReaper

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And nobody denies that.

You know the great Englishman George Orwell who wrote that iconic novel about dystopia framed Turkey's modus operandi in literary terms thus:



Turkey is trying to shove the inconvenient parts of its own history down memory hole.

The only other state doing that in the 21st century is Japan which is also trying to send down its WWII era historical treatment of its neighbours down memory hole.

By contrast European history nowadays, even as it is taught in our schools, has become equivalent to its criminal record - after all, do you even know one bit about western history aside from those negative aspects involving treatment of others, CrimsonReaper?

I rather doubt it.
I was just pointing out that many empires at the time were brutal. I don't disregard their achievements in any way..
 

Avani

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Do you doubt there being a reason for that?

Perpetuate any groups past mistakes and you effectively cripple them.

Slavery and Racism in the US, Nazism and Anti-Semitism in Germany, Imperialism in the UK, African Colonialism and the French...

Take your pick.
The problem is that one can try erasing one's own memory but the others affected by it will remember. We cannot only remember the convenient parts. Turkey has a record of taking slaves, and massacring and destroying other cultures for 1000 years or something like that...Whether we talk about it or not.

It's not like they are really forgetting it either- the people involved in such acts are still called heroes and remembered for their "greatness" by the ideological followers today and such "conquest" are remembered and boasted fondly. So asking others to not remember other half of it, is kind of funny.
 
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Dissonant Values

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The problem is that one can try erasing one's own memory but the others affected by it will remember. We cannot only remember the convenient parts. Turkey has a record of taking slaves, and massacring and destroying other cultures for 1000 years or something like that...Whether we talk about it or not.

It's not like they are really forgetting it either- the people involved in such acts are still called heroes and remembered for their "greatness" by the ideological followers today and such "conquest" are remembered and boasted fondly. So asking others to not remember other half of it, is kind of funny.
Well yeah...

Thats why I said its been a cesspool since 1456 after it fell to the Caliphates which would eventually form the Ottoman Empire.

My point was to reiterate the OP's sentiment that global powers have a history of censoring their misdeeds and you can find examples everywhere.

How many instances are there in history where we only remember a group as powerful?

There's no mention of the civilizations they wiped out because it wasnt conducive to their rise to power.
 

nefraiko

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hey man these are politics, why turkey should recognize it's genocides when for example france and israel and england, US, canada and ......... don't ? why is germany bringing this matter at this particular moment ? for justice ? give me a break.
 

Narushima

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hey man these are politics, why turkey should recognize it's genocides when for example france and israel and england, US, canada and ......... don't ? why is germany bringing this matter at this particular moment ? for justice ? give me a break.
This made me laugh in real life nefraiko, see that is how I know you have never been inside a school in the west or read or watch much western media.

You are right about Israel though - that is another state in the 21st century trying to rewrite history.

Of course it's not about justice - politics and 'justice' are antonyms as far as most people define them.

And let's not pretend that either you or I are as impartial as we'd like others to think us.

See, my attitude toward Sunni Islam and every state associated with it parallels your attitude toward the west or even Israel - although perhaps that's a bit extreme since your average Muslim has more respect for a pig than the Jews oops I mean the "zionists!"
 

Dissonant Values

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This made me laugh in real life nefraiko, see that is how I know you have never been inside a school in the west or read or watch much western media.

You are right about Israel though - that is another state in the 21st century trying to rewrite history.

Of course it's not about justice - politics and 'justice' are antonyms as far as most people define them.

And let's not pretend that either you or I are as impartial as we'd like others to think us.

See, my attitude toward Sunni Islam and every state associated with it parallels your attitude toward the west or even Israel - although perhaps that's a bit extreme since your average Muslim has more respect for a pig than the Jews oops I mean the "zionists!"
Im curious as to what the Muslim opinion of a 'Zionist' is anyway...according to Muslim scripture both are Abrahamic in lineage, and Saladin at least seemed to tolerate them as did Ala ad-Daula...
 
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