Gengetsu vs Kakashi

[Great Master Minato]

The mist, naturally. But you've yet to prove that sharingan can only break out of visual based genjutsu.

Well as we know Sharingan can't break out of auditory genjutsu...so why would any kind of genjutsu other than visual be any different?

 

[BenjerminGaye]

Let me get source before I continue.

It's right there. American Petroleum Institute

 

[BenjerminGaye]

Well as we know Sharingan can't break out of auditory genjutsu...so why would any kind of genjutsu other than visual be any different?

Because mist is AOE based and both kakashi and itachi already broken out of that type.
Not to mention sharingan failing to break sound based dosen't mean it will fail to break mist based. The two have no connection.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

It's right there. American Petroleum Institute

Gengetsu oils can seep and harden sand/break down sand.

Oil heats up by movement energy, creating a steam explosion.

Whats the closest Group category we can put this oil class then? And is Miukage's oil Synthetic?

 

[BenjerminGaye]

Gengetsu oils can seep and harden sand/break down sand.

Oil heats up by movement energy, creating a steam explosion.

Whats the closest Group category we can put this oil class then? And is Miukage's oil Synthetic?

I put it in group 3 or 4. Leaning more towards 4.
it can withstand high heat and pressure. And is has high (to my knowledge) viscosity. Whether or not it's synthetic depends on if you consider elements made by chakra synthetic.

Group III

Group III base oils are greater than 90 percent saturates, less than 0.03 percent sulfur and have a viscosity index above 120. These oils are refined even more than Group II base oils and generally are severely hydrocracked (higher pressure and heat). This longer process is designed to achieve a purer base oil. Although made from crude oil, Group III base oils are sometimes described as synthesized hydrocarbons. Like Group II base oils, these oils are also becoming more prevalent.

Group IV base oils are polyalphaolefins (PAOs). These synthetic base oils are made through a process called synthesizing. They have a much broader temperature range and are great for use in extreme cold conditions and high heat applications.

 

[Lariatoo]

Yeah... Kakashi wins. Sharingan see trought genjutsu and Kamui seal with Joki boy. Gengetsu will be too weak after that and is quickly dealt with. Bad matchup.

 

[Selan]

Kakashi's Sharingan sees through Gengetsu's genjutsu. Someone who was fooled by Gaara with clones can't even hope to fight against Kakashi who can trick people like Itachi and Pain with his clones, Kage Bunshin or Raiton Kage Bunshin; anyway Jokey Boy can be easily warped away with Kamui, for Kakashi's reflexes and jutsu timing/execution it's like it was standing still, haha. After using the Jokey Boy we know that Gengetsu is especially weakened, so Kakashi blitzes him with Raiden and kills him as high level Raiton > Suika no jutsu.

Depending on the distance, Kakashi could kill him quickly before he even can pull his best jutsu, with a quick Raikiri dash blitz, or with the evergreen Kamui GG.

Kakashi wins low diff/mid diff.

 

[Airbear]

Itachi breaking out of kabuto's sound genjutsu has nothing to do with him a having a sharingan.
He either has a strong will power or him having an edo body.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

I put it in group 3 or 4. Leaning more towards 4.
it can withstand high heat and pressure. And is has high (to my knowledge) viscosity. Whether or not it's synthetic depends on if you consider elements made by chakra synthetic.

Group III

Group III base oils are greater than 90 percent saturates, less than 0.03 percent sulfur and have a viscosity index above 120. These oils are refined even more than Group II base oils and generally are severely hydrocracked (higher pressure and heat). This longer process is designed to achieve a purer base oil. Although made from crude oil, Group III base oils are sometimes described as synthesized hydrocarbons. Like Group II base oils, these oils are also becoming more prevalent.

Group IV base oils are polyalphaolefins (PAOs). These synthetic base oils are made through a process called synthesizing. They have a much broader temperature range and are great for use in extreme cold conditions and high heat applications.

Ill meet you half way and say it is. My premise changes from Raiton being "ineffective" to being non-factor, due to low conductivity it can gives at best.

Kakashi's Sharingan sees through Gengetsu's genjutsu.

Seeing it doesnt mean crap since its constantly being produce. You still have to break the genjutsu, which is useless. The only method to end the technique is to defeat the real clam, fact.

Someone who was fooled by Gaara with clones can't even hope to fight against Kakashi who can trick people like Itachi and Pain with his clones, Kage Bunshin or Raiton Kage Bunshin;

Lol what? Clones are hardly a factor, since Kakashi can't make it obvious that he formed a clone. Every scenario to which Kakashi fools someone is when their Line of sight was blocked from them to see it. Itachi couldnt see due to Katon blocking his sight and Pain when he push him in a pile of rubble.

And theres a fact that Mizukage can make a normal (water clone?) clone to fight in a genjutsu without using Joky Boi first. As we witness Gaara being attacked[

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] when Gengetsu orignal was at the same place his real clam was[

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].

So he is being fooled by genjutsu while getting sniped by water gun, or Kakashi's clones.

anyway Jokey Boy can be easily warped away with Kamui, for Kakashi's reflexes and jutsu timing/execution it's like it was standing still, haha. After using the Jokey Boy we know that Gengetsu is especially weakened,

Joki speed is amazing, as we witness it dodging Gaara Sand with ease (and all speed hype from other characters were used to counter Gaara's sand speed) so thats clearly an exaggeration to use that expression of being wrapped easily.

And theres the fact that Kakashi focusing on Kamui the clone, leaves him open to getting sniped by water gun from the orignal.

so Kakashi blitzes him with Raiden and kills him as high level Raiton > Suika no jutsu.

Lol no Manga made it very clear that Gengetsu's body is more oil then water. Oil and nearly a nonconducting source, fact. It will perform low conductivity at best.

Raiton is hardly a factor.

Depending on the distance, Kakashi could kill him quickly before he even can pull his best jutsu, with a quick Raikiri dash blitz, or with the evergreen Kamui GG.

Kakashi wins low diff/mid diff.

Right because Kamui is so fast he can pull his headband, and chakra built enough to warp faster (depending on distance) and end that fight without Mizukage doing anything Lol

 

[Heisenberg Wannabe]

Kakashi's Sharingan could see through Gengetsu's illusions.
Joki Boi's gets negged with Kamui.
Gengetsu was Hozuki if I'm not mistaken, Suigetsu's ancestor thus have a water body.
Kakashi with his Lightning style would be the worst match up for him.

Kakashi wins this medium diff.

 

[BenjerminGaye]

Ill meet you half way and say it is. My premise changes from Raiton being "ineffective" to being non-factor, due to low conductivity it can gives at best.

i'd say you're gonna have to come the full distance or at least 75%. Even though it closer to oil than water garra didn't say it's purely oil. Even jokey boy is a oil water solution, and his water gun is a water tech(seeing as how it didn't mess up the sand)

Sharingan sees through his genjutsu and I'll even 1 up it by saying even if it doesn't hiding like mole puts him underground and outside the mist. Thus outside the aoe. Since the tech keeps the user aware of what's happening above ground via magnetic forces , he can figure out where the clam is from that and kill it with raikiri upon resurfacing.

Jokey boy gets kamui'd during explosion cooldown.

 

[TRE MERCER]

Kakashi kamui's the clam before it can even spit out enough mist to cause the mirage. Then proceeds to rape him.

Scene 2 ehhh good luck Kakashi.​

 

[Brother Numpsay]

i'd say you're gonna have to come the full distance or at least 75%. Even though it closer to oil than water garra didn't say it's purely oil. Even jokey boy is a oil water solution, and his water gun is a water tech(seeing as how it didn't mess up the sand)

I mean still, regardless, the conclusion remains the same that Gengetsu/Joki is hardly conductible to take him out.

@Bold when was this?

Sharingan sees through his genjutsu and I'll even 1 up it by saying even if it doesn't hiding like mole puts him underground and outside the mist. Thus outside the aoe. Since the tech keeps the user aware of what's happening above ground via magnetic forces , he can figure out where the clam is from that and kill it with raikiri upon resurfacing.

Sharingan being able to detect that, he is in a genjutsu, doesn't mean it nullifies the genjutsu, as he still has to break it.
Underground seems plausible but I can't reach that conclusion because Onoki should of done it if he thought it would work. You might say Onoki doesn't have feats to use that move, but he has shown to do something very similar of underground tech[

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]

Jokey boy gets kamui'd during explosion cooldown.

True, then its all or nothing for Mizukage. If he successfully snipes him while kamuiing his clone then he wins. If fail then he loses.
For scenario 1 of course.

 

[BenjerminGaye]

I mean still, regardless, the conclusion remains the same that Gengetsu/Joki is hardly conductible to take him out.

Alright.

@Bold when was this?

Gengetsu killed garra's sand clone of onnoki. But the sand itself wasn't destroyed(to the best of my memory I'll have to double check)

Sharingan being able to detect that, he is in a genjutsu, doesn't mean it nullifies the genjutsu, as he still has to break it.

kai release. He's done it to kabuto's aoe genjutsu.

Underground seems plausible but I can't reach that conclusion because Onoki should of done it if he thought it would work. You might say Onoki doesn't have feats to use that move, but he has shown to do something very similar of underground tech[

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]

why onnoki didn't attempt that is anyone's guess. I doubt he'd even think about it since he's waiting for garra's sensing sand to do it 4 him.

True, then its all or nothing for Mizukage. If he successfully snipes him while kamuiing his clone then he wins. If fail then he loses.

He has 5 chances to do it.

For scenario 1 of course.

yeah kakashi might lose scenario 2.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

Gengetsu killed garra's sand clone of onnoki. But the sand itself wasn't destroyed(to the best of my memory I'll have to double check)

Gengetsu bullet right through the sand. The bullet wasn't meant for destroying but penetrating.

kai release. He's done it to kabuto's aoe genjutsu.

Kabuto made a comment that he expected Chunin skilled and up rankers to dispel the jutsu. These rankings all know how to deal with Genjutsu.

They are all also in the Shinobi Alliance. You can't say its the same level or same genjutsu to begin with, yet alone underestimate everyone who had faced Gengetsu, on dealing with this genjutsu.

All in all. It was canonically not possible to break out of it with Kai. He needs to locate and destroy the clam to stop the genjutsu.

why onnoki didn't attempt that is anyone's guess. I doubt he'd even think about it since he's waiting for garra's sensing sand to do it 4 him.

Onoki knows Gengetsu more then Gaara. Onoki is a Doton Master, would not be surprised that he taught Deidara Doton underground move. I doubt he is dumb enough to think for himself in that situation. So Im pretty sure Onoki throught it wouldnt be effective.

He has 5 chances to do it.

Im aware of that, and I dont think he needs to use 5. Pretty he just need one for Joki and one for Gengetsu, himself.

The point of the gamble is that Gengetsu can plausibly snipe him when Joki Boi is getting warped. Kakashi is being blind sided by his LoS to warp the clone. Thats an opportunity.

 

[BenjerminGaye]

Gengetsu bullet right through the sand. The bullet wasn't meant for destroying but penetrating.

what it was ment for wouldn't change it's oil properties. It not displaying oil properties means genetsu isn't purely oil and it brings into question the non conductivity of his body.

Kabuto made a comment that he expected Chunin skilled and up rankers to dispel the jutsu. These rankings all know how to deal with Genjutsu.

scan?

They are all also in the Shinobi Alliance. You can't say its the same level or same genjutsu to begin with, yet alone underestimate everyone who had faced Gengetsu, on dealing with this genjutsu.

I never said it's the same lvl. I said it's the same type.

All in all. It was canonically not possible to break out of it with Kai. He needs to locate and destroy the clam to stop the genjutsu.

speculation. I don't see why kai wouldn't work since at the end of the day all genjutsu does the same thing. Control chakra in the brain.

Onoki knows Gengetsu more then Gaara.

I doubt garra would hold out information about his own abilities since they're working together, while on the opposite side Gengetsu would withhold whatever info possible since he's been onoki's opposition both in life and after life. So no as it stands onnoki would know more about garra (proves this by lightening his sand, lightening the sand in the area, covering his defense with his own etc)

Onoki is a Doton Master,

correct

would not be surprised that he taught Deidara Doton underground move.

speculation

I doubt he is dumb enough to think for himself in that situation.

how so he's using garra's abilities. It's called teamwork. And unlike kakashi who has raikiri he needed falling momentum and and heavy rock technique to break the clam so destroying it from below where he'd lose all those factors would make it impossible for him to destroy it like kakashi can.

So Im pretty sure Onoki throught it wouldnt be effective.

speculation but if he had thought it through like u claimed he'd know he dosent have all the tools to make it viable.

Im aware of that, and I dont think he needs to use 5. Pretty he just need one for Joki and one for Gengetsu, himself.

raikiri on kunai is still viable for Gengetsu. He dosent need the paralysis properties of raikiri as long as he maintains the extra piercing power.

The point of the gamble is that Gengetsu can plausibly snipe him when Joki Boi is getting warped. Kakashi is being blind sided by his LoS to warp the clone. Thats an opportunity.

how so? Kakashi can still track his sent, sound, and air currents while sniping Joki boy.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

what it was ment for wouldn't change it's oil properties. It not displaying oil properties means genetsu isn't purely oil and it brings into question the non conductivity of his body.

Um what? properties is very crucial when it comes to its cause and effect. Other wise the water bullet should have not be condense enough to penetrate like a bullet but react as a water droplet.

scan?

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I never said it's the same lvl. I said it's the same type.

Still Kai is useless since the opponent would just be put right back in.

speculation. I don't see why kai wouldn't work since at the end of the day all genjutsu does the same thing. Control chakra in the brain.

It wouldnt matter since he will still be put back under the genjutsu

I doubt garra would hold out information about his own abilities since they're working together, while on the opposite side Gengetsu would withhold whatever info possible since he's been onoki's opposition both in life and after life. So no as it stands onnoki would know more about garra (proves this by lightening his sand, lightening the sand in the area, covering his defense with his own etc) correct speculation

Huh you read me wrong or I didn't write it right. Onoki's knowledge on Gengetsu is superioir to Gaara having knowledge on Gengetsu.

If he had what it takes to use Doton tracking he would have used it to work.

how so he's using garra's abilities. It's called teamwork. And unlike kakashi who has raikiri he needed falling momentum and and heavy rock technique to break the clam so destroying it from below where he'd lose all those factors would make it impossible for him to destroy it like kakashi can. speculation but if he had thought it through like u claimed he'd know he dosent have all the tools to make it viable.

Onoki canonically had to tools to kill the clam. If Doton tracking worked then he would have use it.

raikiri on kunai is still viable for Gengetsu. He dosent need the paralysis properties of raikiri as long as he maintains the extra piercing power.

Penetrating Hozuki clan is useless. He isn't going to lose by physical damage.

how so? Kakashi can still track his sent, sound, and air currents while sniping Joki boy.

He can do all that while he is focused? Never seen that before.

 

[BenjerminGaye]

Um what? properties is very crucial when it comes to its cause and effect. Other wise the water bullet should have not be condense enough to penetrate like a bullet but react as a water droplet.

it's properties shown no traces of oil. Since oil seeps in and destroys. While it went through like it's namesake. And water bullet is more than condense enough. Suigetsu's water bullet blew off the side of SZ's head while a simple punch is more than enough to kill garra's sand clone.

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kabuto being impressed with the leaf elite has no bearings on what can and can't be broken. Especially since given his impressed state he didn't expect them to break it.

Still Kai is useless since the opponent would just be put right back in.

baseless. Just because the mist is continuing that dosen't mean they're gonna remain under genjutsu effects. Much like how shikamaru broke Tayuya sound gen despite her still playing the flute. Or kakashi maintaining eye contact with itachi after breaking itachi's genjutsu.

It wouldnt matter since he will still be put back under the genjutsu

above.

Huh you read me wrong or I didn't write it right. Onoki's knowledge on Gengetsu is superioir to Gaara having knowledge on Gengetsu.

Gengetsu still explained that they have to find the clam.

If he had what it takes to use Doton tracking he would have used it to work.

but he didn't. After he tracks it how is he gonna kill it? He dosent have the means to destroy it from below. Heck he barely had the means to destroy it from above, blowing his back out immediately after the ultra weight gravity/momentum assist punch.

Onoki canonically had to tools to kill the clam.

from above not below.

If Doton tracking worked then he would have use it.

if he uses Doton tracking he can't kill it.

Penetrating Hozuki clan is useless. He isn't going to lose by physical damage.

Kakashi can turn him to water via penetrating. There's always rasengan.

He can do all that while he is focused? Never seen that before.

Do all what? Listen to his opponent (soundwave), smell his opponent(scent), and feel the air shift(air current)? That's basic. He's been doing it since giden days. Unless you're insinuating that he goes noseblind, deaf, and loses the ability to feel everytime he uses kamui.

 

[Ghost in the Shell]

Gengetsu wins. Kakashi will have to choose to Kamui either Joki Boi or Gengetsu; while he warps the clone away Mizudeppou one shots. Hydrification can avoid Kamui at the point of distortion as well.

Edit: Jōki Bōi one shots in scenario 2.

...Or Gengetsu can create a water clone or clones in front of himself to block Kakashi's line of sight and snipe him with Mizudeppo after he warps said clone, since he has intel on Kamui. I think that works as well. For those of you that don't know, Gengetsu can use mizu bunshins since Joki is just a modified clone. Can't create a modified water clone without knowing how to create regular water clones, and naruto wiki supports this as well.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

it's properties shown no traces of oil. Since oil seeps in and destroys. While it went through like it's namesake. And water bullet is more than condense enough. Suigetsu's water bullet blew off the side of SZ's head while a simple punch is more than enough to kill garra's sand clone.

I have no idea what you are talking about. I honestly dont know what point your trying to make. In no way can a little droplet of "water" mix with "oil" is going seep in break down hefty amount of sand.

kabuto being impressed with the leaf elite has no bearings on what can and can't be broken. Especially since given his impressed state he didn't expect them to break it.

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Better translation. It holds bearing since you are using it for your claim as to why Kakashi breaks Mizukage's genjutsu.

baseless. Just because the mist is continuing that dosen't mean they're gonna remain under genjutsu effects. Much like how shikamaru broke Tayuya sound gen despite her still playing the flute. Or kakashi maintaining eye contact with itachi after breaking itachi's genjutsu.

Lol did you seriously say my claims are baseless? No my claims follow manga. What your premise suggest is baseless. Not only are your examples not to same as Mizkages's effect. But everyone in the SA facing him knows damn well how to use Kai themselves. I dont need proof of that. If you to use strictly feats then its utterly clear that Onoki, who has Kai feats, could have easily broken out of the genjutsu.

So no your claims are baseless

Gengetsu still explained that they have to find the clam.

What does that have to do with my point?

but he didn't. After he tracks it how is he gonna kill it? He dosent have the means to destroy it from below. Heck he barely had the means to destroy it from above, blowing his back out immediately after the ultra weight gravity/momentum assist punch.

Why the heck does it matter if he can't destroy from below? If he had the method of finding them claim with Doton he would of. If he had a method of killing the clam (which he did) then he will use that method after.

above not below

So?

if he uses Doton tracking he can't kill it.

What?

Kakashi can turn him to water via penetrating.

Not only does that not making any sense, point?

There's always rasengan.

So? Knowing the tech doesn't mean it beats hydrification

Do all what? Listen to his opponent (soundwave), smell his opponent(scent), and feel the air shift(air current)? That's basic. He's been doing it since giden days. Unless you're insinuating that he goes noseblind, deaf, and loses the ability to feel everytime he uses kamui.

Never said he loses his senses but no evidence shows he can use them all when he is already focused on something. Otherwise Kakashi is never blinded sided by anything, which manga doesn't support. Period.