Darth AniCetuS
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I wouldn't have mind seeing Ramsey being tortured a bit more rather than only hearing the sob's screams.
Game of Thrones Season 6 episode 9: Battle of the Bastards
- Thread starter Chibiusa
- Start date
Finally a great episode in this horrible season. Jon Snow was great and very entertaining in this battle with his skill, just like the past two seasons.
[video=youtube;i8LivWPrpA0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8LivWPrpA0&index=[/video]
[video=youtube;i8LivWPrpA0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8LivWPrpA0&index=[/video]
Mad Titan Thanos
Banned
I rated this episode with 8 because it was predictable and because Wun Wun died. Also battle of Meereen was to short.
R.I.P. Wun Wun.
R.I.P. Wun Wun.
Amazing episode, Danaerys part was pretty cool. I enjoyed seeing the other three dragons freed and them setting the ships ablaze, and Grey Worm cutting down those two slave masters throats in one blow was sick.
But in the North... Easily one of the best battles I've seen thus far, my only complaint is how underused Wun Wun was but I guess it cancels out when a target that easy to hit lasted as long as he did. He should have easily been able to trample the Bolton infantry. I thought Tormund was going to be killed by Smalljon but he killed him thankfully. If Smalljon wasn't a traitor he would've been one of my favorite characters easily, we should've seen some more combat from him on the field.
When I saw those dire wolf banners behind Jon I lost my shit, also when Winterfell was taken back from the Boltons and their banners were removed, quickly followed by Dire wolf sigil of House Stark. When Rickon died I regrettably didn't have the reaction I would have if I wasn't spoiled by the internet. Jon almost being trampled by the Bolton cavalry had me on my toes too but when the two cavalries collided my shits were nearly spent. BUT let's not forget when the Vale came, I lost whatever shits remained after the previous shits were lost. I've been waiting for the Stark restoration since the Red Wedding, the treasonous Boltons are now extinct. It's a shame, before they betrayed the Starks House Bolton was my second favorite house.
The true rulers of the North have returned, House Stark..
But in the North... Easily one of the best battles I've seen thus far, my only complaint is how underused Wun Wun was but I guess it cancels out when a target that easy to hit lasted as long as he did. He should have easily been able to trample the Bolton infantry. I thought Tormund was going to be killed by Smalljon but he killed him thankfully. If Smalljon wasn't a traitor he would've been one of my favorite characters easily, we should've seen some more combat from him on the field.
When I saw those dire wolf banners behind Jon I lost my shit, also when Winterfell was taken back from the Boltons and their banners were removed, quickly followed by Dire wolf sigil of House Stark. When Rickon died I regrettably didn't have the reaction I would have if I wasn't spoiled by the internet. Jon almost being trampled by the Bolton cavalry had me on my toes too but when the two cavalries collided my shits were nearly spent. BUT let's not forget when the Vale came, I lost whatever shits remained after the previous shits were lost. I've been waiting for the Stark restoration since the Red Wedding, the treasonous Boltons are now extinct. It's a shame, before they betrayed the Starks House Bolton was my second favorite house.
The true rulers of the North have returned, House Stark..
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I just read an interesting comment somewhere; that Cersei is planning to set parts of King's Landing ablaze, in particular the holy locations of the Faith. I didn't really thought about it, but we've been reminded quite a few times this season about the Mad King's plan to put the city to the torch. The Mad King and images of wildfire appeared in Bran's visions and in this episode Tyrion mentioned it to Dany. Now I don't remember if it explicitly appeared it in the series, but in the novels it was said that not all the bottles with wildfire had been found. Now Qyburn said something about a rumor being true, which might be referring to such a lost stash.
Xee Etbrkz
Member
Jon is not fit to be a ruler, that is very clear. He is fit to be a commander of an army. All those plans that he had about letting Ramsey come to him, Ramsey undid with ease. Ramsey's tactical genius was unparalleled as well. I loved how he had Wildlings, Jon and his army trapped. That was as merciless and as efficient as I expected him to be. Iwan Rheon's time on the show may be over, but his acting will be remembered. Easily one of the best. Take a bow.
Sansa IS fit to be a ruler. I loved how she predicts not what the military would do, but what the person would. Jon and Davos can play their military games, but this is what separates commanders from rulers. Awesome character development. Kishimoto could learn how to develop a female lead. Sansa was annoying and now she is awesome. Rikkon's death was expected, given the character development he had had. An apt end for Ramsey. I should say that Ramsey developed Sansa in a way. Wonder what deal she made with Littlefinger. Hope its not too bad.
Loved how Danery's effortlessly won over the masters. No more of that nonsense, I hope. At least in the near future. Also loved the interaction between Yara and Danerys. Theon has had major development too. Good for him. Actually its all girl power on GOT now, given that Tommen is controlled by one female or another.
10/10 - People who have rated 8/10 are stupid.
Get ready for some white walker action next episode as Bran's arc, this season, comes to close. I expect to see Arya as well, but I am not quite sure where her story line is going.
Sansa IS fit to be a ruler. I loved how she predicts not what the military would do, but what the person would. Jon and Davos can play their military games, but this is what separates commanders from rulers. Awesome character development. Kishimoto could learn how to develop a female lead. Sansa was annoying and now she is awesome. Rikkon's death was expected, given the character development he had had. An apt end for Ramsey. I should say that Ramsey developed Sansa in a way. Wonder what deal she made with Littlefinger. Hope its not too bad.
Loved how Danery's effortlessly won over the masters. No more of that nonsense, I hope. At least in the near future. Also loved the interaction between Yara and Danerys. Theon has had major development too. Good for him. Actually its all girl power on GOT now, given that Tommen is controlled by one female or another.
10/10 - People who have rated 8/10 are stupid.
Get ready for some white walker action next episode as Bran's arc, this season, comes to close. I expect to see Arya as well, but I am not quite sure where her story line is going.
There are theories that Bran made the Mad King, "Mad". But Cersei got mad on all her own.
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The Mad King had installed caches of wild fire underneath various locations in Kingslanding, but when Jamie killed the 3 Pyromancers before slaying the mad king, the location of all the wildfire caches died with them. Some of it was found but some of it is still there, just waiting to be burned. And to build up the hype in Brans flashback we see a different wildfire storage, different from the one we saw in season 2. I think all of this is gonna lead into Cersei going mad, everything she ever cared about is being taken away from her... this may resort to her blowing up Kings Landing.
>Goes into commander room with the wooden army pieces on the table
>watches the men talk strategy
>doesn't speak up
>WHY DID NO ONE ASK ME FOR MY INPUT, SHITLORDS?
>I DONT KNOW ARMY STUFF OR TACTICS OR ANYTHING LOL
>btw ramsey is tricky my contribution is valuable
All she's done is sending a letter to Littlefinger. What a great ruler.
yep, the "mad queen" theory. it's been foreshadowed the entire season. Cersei saying she would burn cities to the ground for her children, Jaime telling Edmure women like Cersei would burn down cities, etc. Plus there's also the prophesy. Tommen will die before Cersei. Just imagine her going crazy burning down the Sept not knowing Tommen inside, killing her final child herself. There's wildfire all over the city, all it would take is one spark and Kings Landing will go up in flames
Ramsey is not a tactical genius, he simply has no sense of morality or empathy whatsoever and only thinks about himself. This allows him to deploy tactics few men in Westeros would dare to use because they're immoral, not honorable and often not very clever as they can provide a large amount of problems down the road and he had to learn that the hard way:
- He killed everyone of his family, now his house dies with him.
- He killed Rickon, the at that particular moment the person with the strongest claim on Winterfell, with a sadistic game to mess with the minds of his enemies. That worked, however he showed that important hostages are not safe with him while normally they are treated well as they are important bargaining chips. So sending him to his doom just to play a sadistic game was rather stupid as he wasted what would have been a strong leverage in the case things went bad and it also shows to everyone that he absolutely can't be trusted and in their society placing your children and heirs under the tutelage of higher lords is common.
- He had far superior numbers and had a better equipped army that was much more disciplined. Still somehow he succeeded in losing his entire cavalry and a large part of his foot soldiers against a much smaller army that was badly equipped and moderately disciplined. Among others because he kept on sending volley after volley of arrows down on his own men. In the end he only had left a squadron of heavy infantry. Yes he was able to box in the opposing army perfectly, however that tactic is an all or nothing maneuver. Highly efficient as long as your enemies remain in the center, but it leaves you completely open from the back. Normally you would hold back a part of your troops, the reserves, just for the what-if scenario. You don't have to be a tactical genius for that as it's a standard procedure. Granted he could have never expected the Vale to show up, however a good tactician should have held back a part of his force just in case. Now he left his army wide open and they were butchered on the spot.
Ramsey's catastrophic tactical failures became painfully obvious when he was back in Winterfell and one of his men said that they didn't have an army anymore. He has a certain amount of cunningness and a way to mess with people's psyche, however he dealt with people almost always in situations he completely had under his control. It's not hard to dominate someone when he's in your dungeon. This was one of the first times in his life he could not control the situation and he pretty much had a mental breakdown.
Similar thing with Sansa. It's true that she had much more insight in Ramsey's mind than the others, however she did a very bad job at conveying that message. She met Littlefinger in secret. She then declined his help saying the North would take the North. She pretty much demanded the support of several houses, like house Glover, and you could read on Jon's face that that was the last thing she should have said. She then starts talking about that they need more men, but there are no more men. Saying that will really not change anything. She then again in secret contacts Littlefinger to come back on what she said before and the Vale army appears at the very last second to turn the tides. This is not what you would define as a sign of great leadership, but rather a sign of an impulsive nature. There's also a prize she will have to pay, which has become quite clear in the next episode's trailer.
And yes I also heard the theories about the Mad King, but I don't believe them. Hodor's case has shown that influencing the past is already part of the flow of time. Meaning the result of any future influence from Bran will already have occurred in the present, something he must have realized. So what point would there be for Bran to start messing with the Mad King knowing that he will turn mad? Unless that of course is his plan, but again then just happens what already happened years ago for us.
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Totsuka No Tsurugi
Active member
Not even the great Tywin Lannister would rain arrows to his own cavalry and he was famous for being the most ruthless commander in westeros.
She may have purposefully kept the vale army a secret so to let Rickon to die so she could rule. Rickon would have had higher claim than her.
Another plothole is that large army of vale was passing through the north but being warden of the north Ramsey has no idea. He has shit spies and vassals.
Totsuka No Tsurugi
Active member
There is no way for her to know that the Vale army will actually arrive to their aid...
You really don't believe that yourself, now do you? Sansa has never shown any kind of interest in the act of ruling Winterfell, she was also not raised for that purpose. If she wanted to be an influential woman, well she has had enough suitors throughout the series to fulfill that desire. Above all she would have to marry (again) someone someday and in that case the house that person is from, would become the rulers of Winterfell, so her desire to rule would be the same as destroying house Stark. Only in very rare cases has it occurred in Westerosi history that a male took on the name, sigil and words of his wife. You also have the issue that Bran is still alive and we can't exclude either that the charter where Rob proclaims Jon as his heir pops up sooner or later. If Sansa truly wanted to get rid of Rickon, she will have to get rid of Bran and Jon likewise sooner or later and even after GoT standards that would be messed up.
And that the Vale army was able to pass through the North undetected isn't that weird. Moat Cailin is directly connected with Winterfell via the King's Road and they only brought cavalry with them. So they could have crossed that distance quite rapidly and in a straight line. The North is also thinly populated and most importantly the Boltons really aren't popular in the North. Many houses might not have joined Jon and Sansa openly, but that doesn't mean they were going to make it easy for Ramsey either. For example House Reed and the Crannogmen of the Neck. They aren't useful for a large scale battle, but they control the passageway to the North and they are fiercely loyal to the Starks, so they really were not going to notify the Boltons that a huge army had crossed the Neck. The domains of house Umber and Karstark are located respectively to the far north-west and the far north-east of Winterfell, so they couldn't have noticed Littlefinger and they were the only houses who were supporting Ramsey. Ramsey is also no Littlefinger or Varys who have eyes and ears everywhere.
It's however a mystery how the Vale army was able to leave the Vale and reach Moat Cailin that fast and without being noticed.
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Not Truly a Stark Queen until LF's not fingering as close as he can to the late Cait.
Jon is the truest Stark of them all.. he's the sole embodiment of Ned imo.. Fire gods be damned...
The Old Gods recognize Jon.
RIP mommy dearest^
Ot: watched it for breakfast next morning
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Xee Etbrkz
Member
That may be, but does he care about his house when he is not alive? He cared about himself, his utility was maximized by ruling Winterfell, so he did.
Rikon had no value for anyone except the Starks and hence cannot be used as a bargaining chip for any other deal. He used him to end Starks, and if he had been successful, the Starks would be gone and hence Rikon won't be needed anymore. Can't see a good enough reason for him to not do what he did, unless you count that if he had won, he could have used Rikon to keep Sansa in check. But that is unlikely, as if he had won, Sansa wouldn't have had anyone to run to.
If you notice he only initiated the manoeuvre once Davos was on the front lines. Then he had no one to attack him from the back. He had no reason to assume that Vale or any other army would attack him. And if they hadn't, Snow and his men would have lost badly. All they could do was wait and get killed. It required an external force to break that formation. He had no reason to assume the presence of any external interference.
If you had gone through what she had, would you accept the help of someone who is responsible for putting you in that situation without trying other alternatives first?
But if it was the last option, won't you? Won't you swallow your pride and anger and do what is necessary? It is only the greatest who can lower their ego and corporate with people they hate when it is needed. She did exactly that. She knew Rikon was a lost cause from the start. Yet she motivated Snow to save his brother and thus she motivated him to fight when he didn't want to, knowing fully well that Rikon will be a lost cause. You don't believe she realised this the night before, do you? She must have realised this when she was reading Ramsey's letter at Castle Black. I see potential in her.
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We don't know what he realized in his limbo. That maybe a part of his plan and maybe it was always meant to happen for some reason, I don't know. And I am not saying that this is the theory that I believe in, its just an interesting one.
And she is the reason why they won and Jon is the reason why they almost lost. That is a lot for someone who doesn't know jackshit about tactics and strategy. What did Jon do with his strategy eh? I guess he followed his strategy of letting the Bolton army come to him. I guess he didn't let Ramsey entice him into committing a mistake, since it was so "obvious".
I didn't say he isn't the embodiment of Ned Stark. Ned Stark was a great warrior and an honourable person. But he "knew nothing" about Game of Thrones. Him going to Cersei was stupid in the first place. Jon shows similar foolishness in these matters.
And Tycoon, I root for Snow. Both Lord Crows are my favo.
He cares about his house the same way a celebrity cares about his car: it makes him look good, but for the car itself it's rather doubtful when it becomes total loss after a speeding. He ruined his own house completely because he has only been thinking about himself. This is what Tywin has always been going on about: we all die, but our names and houses remain. You serve the house, Ramsey let the house serve him.
Rickon was as far as they knew the first in line for Winterfell as they don't know what happened to Bran. So he is the heir of what up till recently was one of the most powerful houses in Westeros. This is not something that just disappears even when they're officially stripped of their lands and titles. Officially Rickon didn't really had any claim anymore as the Starks were outcasts, however in practice it doesn't really work that way. That's why it was so important to let Sansa marry Ramsey as that way they could make a much stronger claim on Winterfell. That's also the reason both the Tyrell's and the Lannister's tried to get Sansa. You might never know when Rickon might be useful down the road someday. This became especially clear in both the novels as the TV series. The Freys didn't kill Edmure, which allowed them in the end to take Riverrun. In the novels then house Manderly promised to support Stannis if Davos was able to smuggle Rickon from Skagos. So with Rickon being a prisoner of the Boltons, well they would have had a means to keep the houses still loyal to Stark in line. But what did Ramsey do? He killed him with a sadistic, pointless game. He had the upper hand either way in the battle and Rickon was in important hostage. So what Ramsey did was nothing less than pure stupidity. The fact that a bastard and a woman were able to gather several of the Northern houses proves that the Starks still have a strong influence and even many of the houses who didn't support them directly had no intention of supporting the Boltons. The only thing they had to do was keeping Rickon closeby. So yeah Rickon was highly valuable.
He largely butchered his entire cavalry, the most agile unit of his army. He then used slow heavy infantry to surround his enemies leaving them wide open from the back. He had larger numbers and a more disciplined army that was better equipped and he does all that? As a tactician he's a miserable failure. He lost a huge amount of soldiers against a weaker opponent for no reason. He lost his most agile unit, which could have covered his heavy infantry's blind spot or their retreat, because he let them be killed by his own archers. One of the most basic of all basic tactics in combat is: keep a reserve. Ramsey had men to spare, but his sadistic mind found it necessary to waste them all just he could enjoy see other people suffer. And he had all the reasons to assume back up could arrive. Ramsey had only the support of two other houses. Two of the strongest houses yes, but there were many other houses who have not acknowledged him and the Starks are popular. The thought that there would be back-up on the way was very well a strong possibility. This is really not something you need to be a brilliant tactician for to realize and it would have been a standard hing to keep a part of your army in reserve just in case. That's almost done routinely by any army general, whether there is a direct cause for concern or not. It was unexpected that a huge Vale army would arrive, but that someone would arrive was not.
Considering Ramsey had the overwhelming advantage, he deployed miserable tactics.
If you had gone through what she had, would you have blurred out baseless, hollow things haphazardly? You would have thought that she learned by now to carefully consider her words and to be more pragmatic. She had all the reasons to distrust Littlefinger, but not to throw out shallow statements like "the North will be enough" or "we need more men" or "you don't know how Ramsey is" while not giving and substance to these words. She had also no reason to keep her contact with Littlefinger a secret. If she had accepted his support the first time, then this would have been an alliance and then their debt to the Vale would have been lower as they didn't requested it, they offered it themselves. Now however it was obvious that they were about to lose and Sansa had to request it on the last possible moment. Now their position, and in particular Sansa's, is incredibly vulnerable. They didn't win thanks to Sansa, they barely avoided losing thanks to her. And there is nothing great about having a misplaced ego in the first place. That's the sign of inadequate ruler. Their situation was bad from the get-go, still she threw away the opportunity to gain the support of a huge army without thinking. Then in the end she crawled back. She screwed up, she was also not able to understand Jon's feelings either. He had to fight through an army of zombies and white walkers, but in her own world Ramsey is the biggest evil. I'm glad that Sansa finally started to stand up for herself, but her mind in the end still feels simple and naive.
You see everything way too positive and through rose-colored glasses. The Vale army could have decimated the Bolton army with a minimum of casualties on their side if they played their cards right. Whose fault is it that this didn't happen? Sansa's. The Bolton army could have decimated Jon's army if they played their cards right likewise. Whose fault is it that this didn't happen? Ramsey.
Not tactical genius and not a particularly good ruler. In the end the only reason why Littlefinger even helped is most likely to get into Sansa's pants.
RasenUchihaChaos
Active member
Funny thing is if Jon didn't attack and waited probably get hit by a blizzard that hurt stannis if LF showed up Ramsay would have just hiked up in winter fell and most likely succeed in the defense only reason Wun Wun managed to break the gate was because there was little of the army left to oppose him they would have had to waste time building sige weapons losing food by that time Ramsay could have easily sent a rider or raven to Jaime or the Freys and the other northern houses