[VS] Gai vs. Ay

[Draegod]

Depends how much damage Gai can inflict on A at 5th gate.

The guy survived a chidori in v2, but we don't know how many times Gai is stronger than what Lee did in prelims.

It was "V1" not "V2". Even though there is no difference besides the chakra pumped into the armor.

 

[Touken]

Not seeing your point here. How does this change the fact that he took a Chidori with no damage whatsoever? In fact this only reinforces why Gai's punches and kicks aren't going to do any serious damage to Ay.

My point being Chidori did little damage to Ay only because it's a Raiton tech. Gai's punches and kicks should do more damage because they aren't Raiton based.

Even if he used it in base, not only can Ay evade this since its not anywhere near as large as it was when he used it on Kisame, since its not anywhere as strong as when he used it on Kisame, he can pretty much take it and still be alive to fight since the much less durable Kisame took a stronger Hirudora and was still able to move

Ay's evading something of

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He doesn't have intel on Hirudora and so would definitely not expect an explosion of that size. I doubt he'd dodge it when the explosion is almost instantaneous. Gai's Hirudora against Kisame was done underwater meaning it was weaker, because it's harder to concentrate air pressure which is what Hirudora does [

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]. On top of that,

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, otherwise he would have ended him right after the Hirudora. I doubt V1 Ay is as durable as Madara's Susanoo, which Gai managed to best with a weaker Hirudora executed in base mode.

I know his reactions and speeds are better than Jugo's, my point was to simply show Ay's speed. I know that he isn't going to blitz Gai while in V2, though keeping up with him should be child's play.

Although Gai's style isn't to blitz, that's Ay's style. Once Ay misses that first blow with his blitz, it then becomes CQC where Gai has the advantage with superior taijutsu. Ay's not as fast as Gai when it comes to striking speed.

Also, Sasuke was seeing Haku's movements via 2-Tomoe Sharingan, his speed isn't even great enough to consider reacting to it an impressive feat, not when Sasuke was doing it at the beginning of Part 1. Kakashi's Sharingan was keeping up with Lee, whoever said it wasn't? Kakashi stating that he is fast doesn't mean anything, especially since later on Kakashi reads much faster things with his Sharingan.

Haku admits that his eyes are starting to catch him because he kept the jutsu up for too long [

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][

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]. In Gai's (and Lee's) case he was fighting an Edo Haku, who's chakra is constantly being replenished. Kakashi stated Lee, who's slower than Gai, was fast while he was in the 4th Gate, while Gai can go into the 5th in this battle.

Also, that shows Sasuke and Ay charging at each other, manga already shows him having s

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Fair enough. If Gai isn't gonna get blitzed though, they'll both resort to CQC where it'd be impossibly hard for Ay to both dodge Hirudora and get out of the blast radius.

 

[Haizaki]

Guys I don't think kisame is less durable than Ay cuz kisame survived a V2 killer bee lariat and killer bee's lariat on base form was stronger than ay's if you remember..just saying..gai's hirudora went through kisame's gsb and it was underwater and still knocked kisame out...on top of that if he's aim was to kill kisame...he could have done that afterwards

 

[KidGamer65]

My point being Chidori did little damage to Ay only because it's a Raiton tech. Gai's punches and kicks should do more damage because they aren't Raiton based.

Where was that even implied? And how does anything you even posted support his conclusion? You said this:

When 2 Raiton-based techs clash regardless of what the purpose of the tech is, the stronger one comes out on top.

But how is this relevant? Two raiton techniques didn't clash, Sasuke tried to penetrate Ay's Raiton armor (Not an attack, so this statement of yours doesn't apply here) The reason Chidori did little damage is because it was too weak to bypass his armor, so Gai's punches and kicks are barely going to affect him.

Ay's evading something of

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He doesn't have intel on Hirudora and so would definitely not expect an explosion of that size. I doubt he'd dodge it when the explosion is almost instantaneous. Gai's Hirudora against Kisame was done underwater meaning it was weaker, because it's harder to concentrate air pressure which is what Hirudora does [

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]. On top of that,

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, otherwise he would have ended him right after the Hirudora. I doubt V1 Ay is as durable as Madara's Susanoo, which Gai managed to best with a weaker Hirudora executed in base mode.

Yes, Ay is evading something of that size, the actual beam is only as wide as Madara's Susanoo, so all Ay needs to do is evade that and the Hirudora flies right past him.

Uh, wrong. The Hirudora against Kisame was much larger, thus much stronger. You say the bold yet it completely conflicts with what happened in the manga. You say its harder to gather air pressure underwater so its weaker, but manga clearly shows that Hirudora was larger, meaning Gai gathered much more air pressure than he did against Madara's Susanoo.

lol, your point? Gai not wanting to kill Kisame doesn't change the fact that the Hirudora used on him was much larger and stronger than the one used on Madara.

A stronger Hirudora couldn't kill Kisame, the one he used on Madara is weaker, so obviously its not going to break Susanoo either. That coupled with the fact Susanoo was never shown to be broken, only pushed away, its very clear that Susanoo was never broken by Hirudora..unless you believe Kisame>Hirudora when it comes to durability.

Although Gai's style isn't to blitz, that's Ay's style. Once Ay misses that first blow with his blitz, it then becomes CQC where Gai has the advantage with superior taijutsu. Ay's not as fast as Gai when it comes to striking speed.

Gai doesn't have the upper hand in CQC.

In fact; Gai entering CQC with Ay is pretty much GG for him considering Ay can take his hits and he can deliver his own hits which will kill Gai if strong enough, a mere Karate Chop would smash several of his bones considering they broke Susanoo's Ribs. Unless you are telling me that Gai is going to enter CQC with Ay and not get hit once, which is a ridiculous notion. Superior Taijutsu skill is moot when he can't do serious damage to Ay, he has slower reflexes than him, and when Ay can hit him and pretty much end this match.

Throwing up a guard to block his attacks isn't going to work either since Ay can cut as well. [

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]

Haku admits that his eyes are starting to catch him because he kept the jutsu up for too long [

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][

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]. In Gai's (and Lee's) case he was fighting an Edo Haku, who's chakra is constantly being replenished. Kakashi stated Lee, who's slower than Gai, was fast while he was in the 4th Gate, while Gai can go into the 5th in this battle.

Haku never said that. He said the longer it goes on the better he'll be able to read his movements. Not once did he ever say Sasuke started reading his movements in the first place because he kept the jutsu on too long. Not once.

Fair enough. If Gai isn't gonna get blitzed though, they'll both resort to CQC where it'd be impossibly hard for Ay to both dodge Hirudora and get out of the blast radius.

If they are in the midst of CQC, Gai isn't making the hand signs to get Hirudora off unless he wants to get Karate Chopped, or get slammed into the ground by Liger Bomb.

 

[Prince Charles]

If Guy attempts to block a hit with his arms or legs they get torn off.

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suigestu being water was luck

 

[Touken]

Where was that even implied? And how does anything you even posted support his conclusion? You said this:

But how is this relevant? Two raiton techniques didn't clash, Sasuke tried to penetrate Ay's Raiton armor (Not an attack, so this statement of yours doesn't apply here) The reason Chidori did little damage is because it was too weak to bypass his armor, so Gai's punches and kicks are barely going to affect him.

Clash doesn't mean both the techniques have to be attacking. Refer to the point where I said 'regardless of what the purpose of the tech is'. Raiton armour is used to increase defence, Chidori is used to pierce. Chidori's penetrating power isn't as strong as Ay's Raiton defensive capabilities and so his Raiton armour came on top, with Sasuke not being able to fully pierce his body.

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and Kakashi

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, even though all Raikiri does is pierce, but the fact that it's a high class Raiton, it cancelled out Kakuzu's Gian.

Yes, Ay is evading something of that size, the actual beam is only as wide as Madara's Susanoo, so all Ay needs to do is evade that and the Hirudora flies right past him.

It doesn't need to hit him.

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Uh, wrong. The Hirudora against Kisame was much larger, thus much stronger. You say the bold yet it completely conflicts with what happened in the manga. You say its harder to gather air pressure underwater so its weaker, but manga clearly shows that Hirudora was larger, meaning Gai gathered much more air pressure than he did against Madara's Susanoo.

Because he was in the 7th Gate against Kisame. Gai's Hirudora in 7th Gate is much stronger than base Gai's Hirudora, regardless of whether he was underwater or not (though the explosion is muted underwater). I thought this was obvious. If Gai used Hirudora in 5th Gate on ground, it'd be much stronger than the one used against Kisame.

lol, your point? Gai not wanting to kill Kisame doesn't change the fact that the Hirudora used on him was much larger and stronger than the one used on Madara.

A stronger Hirudora couldn't kill Kisame, the one he used on Madara is weaker, so obviously its not going to break Susanoo either. That coupled with the fact Susanoo was never shown to be broken, only pushed away, its very clear that Susanoo was never broken by Hirudora..unless you believe Kisame>Hirudora when it comes to durability.

The

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, which is why we only see the explosion above water; Kisame didn't take the full force of the explosion and Gai isn't that incompetent enough to use such a technique knowing it might do serious damage to him, considering he didn't have any idea about his durability. Only pushed away? You can't make that conclusion seeing as we don't see Madara's Susanoo again.

Gai doesn't have the upper hand in CQC.

In fact; Gai entering CQC with Ay is pretty much GG for him considering Ay can take his hits and he can deliver his own hits which will kill Gai if strong enough, a mere Karate Chop would smash several of his bones considering they broke Susanoo's Ribs. Unless you are telling me that Gai is going to enter CQC with Ay and not get hit once, which is a ridiculous notion. Superior Taijutsu skill is moot when he can't do serious damage to Ay, he has slower reflexes than him, and when Ay can hit him and pretty much end this match.

Throwing up a guard to block his attacks isn't going to work either since Ay can cut as well. [

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]

Gai's slower reflexes mean nothing when Ay's striking speed is slow enough for Sasuke to best Ay in that department.

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, something base Gai could easily achieve with his level of strength, bearing in mind he was able to knock a grown man through a wall without any leverage. [

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][

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Gai's punches in Gates would decimate Ay. Every punch he makes, Ay goes flying back.

Haku never said that. He said the longer it goes on the better he'll be able to read his movements. Not once did he ever say Sasuke started reading his movements in the first place because he kept the jutsu on too long. Not once.

@bold, and why is that? Because it's a chakra taxing jutsu. Haku was most definitely faster against Gai because his chakra was being replenishe due to being an Edo and because he only used one mirror, meaning he wasn't losing much chakra in the first place, and lemme repeat this was all done in Zabuza's Hidden Mist.

If they are in the midst of CQC, Gai isn't making the hand signs to get Hirudora off unless he wants to get Karate Chopped, or get slammed into the ground by Liger Bomb.

lol,

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than for Ay to karate chop Gai. The hand sign could be done while moving too.

 

[KidGamer65]

Clash doesn't mean both the techniques have to be attacking. Refer to the point where I said 'regardless of what the purpose of the tech is'. Raiton armour is used to increase defence, Chidori is used to pierce. Chidori's penetrating power isn't as strong as Ay's Raiton defensive capabilities and so his Raiton armour came on top, with Sasuke not being able to fully pierce his body.

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and Kakashi

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, even though all Raikiri does is pierce, but the fact that it's a high class Raiton, it cancelled out Kakuzu's Gian.

Still not seeing how any of this supports your point. Why exactly will Gai's kicks and punches affect him more than Chidori? It being Raiton has absolutely nothing to do with it. Nothing at all.

It doesn't need to hit him.

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Then he'd take it with little problem.

Because he was in the 7th Gate against Kisame. Gai's Hirudora in 7th Gate is much stronger than base Gai's Hirudora, regardless of whether he was underwater or not (though the explosion is muted underwater). I thought this was obvious. If Gai used Hirudora in 5th Gate on ground, it'd be much stronger than the one used against Kisame.

And now I'll be waiting for you to bring evidence of this. "Its harder to gather Air Pressure in the water" Isn't conclusive or convincing evidence that a 5th Gate Hirudora will be stronger than a 7th Gate Hirudora whether its in the water or not.

The

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, which is why we only see the explosion above water; Kisame didn't take the full force of the explosion and Gai isn't that incompetent enough to use such a technique knowing it might do serious damage to him, considering he didn't have any idea about his durability. Only pushed away? You can't make that conclusion seeing as we don't see Madara's Susanoo again.

The explosion occurred above and below water. I don't know how you came to the conclusion it was muted underwater since we only see it above water but obviously, that isn't conclusive evidence. Kisame not taking the full force of the explosion is nothing but a baseless assumption.

@bold: Ok? Doesn't change the fact that his Hirudora didn't even kill Kisame.

lol, I can make that conclusion since a Hirudora weaker than one that couldn't kill Kisame isn't going to smash Susanoo. You can't say that it was broken for that same reason.

Not to mention you come here saying it was broken without any other supporting evidence, but when I say it wasn't broken with supporting evidence, I can't make that conclusion since it wasn't shown again....Lol

Gai's slower reflexes mean nothing when Ay's striking speed is slow enough for Sasuke to best Ay in that department.

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, something base Gai could easily achieve with his level of strength, bearing in mind he was able to knock a grown man through a wall without any leverage. [

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][

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Ay went in for a strike against Sasuke while Sasuke did the same, how you equate that to be Ay's set striking speed is beyond me. Lol, not even sure if serious.....Bee's physical strength is greater than Gai's by feats.

Ay smashed this cliff, and his physical strength is inferior to Killer B's. [

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] Smashing someone through a wall is child's play in comparison. Note that Killer B can't replicate this feat since his striking strength is inferior to Ay's.

Ay is strong enough to break through a Ribcage Susanoo, and we've already seen Liger Bomb.

Gai's punches aren't doing squat to Ay. Killer B knocking him back with Lariat doesn't mean that Gai's punches are even going to affect Ay let alone knock him back with every punch, that's a laughable thought. Especially if the hits get blocked, which is a simple task for Ay.

Gai's punches in Gates would decimate Ay. Every punch he makes, Ay goes flying back.

lol.....nope.

@bold, and why is that? Because it's a chakra taxing jutsu. Haku was most definitely faster against Gai because his chakra was being replenishe due to being an Edo and because he only used one mirror, meaning he wasn't losing much chakra in the first place, and lemme repeat this was all done in Zabuza's Hidden Mist.

I could continue on with this point, but its irrelevant to the rest of the discussion. So I'll drop it here.

lol,

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than for Ay to karate chop Gai. The hand sign could be done while moving too.

While he's in CQC with him? lol, no, its not. Not to mention avoiding this shouldn't bee too hard considering he can avoid Jugo's laser cannon at point blank range, all he needs to do is Shunshin out of the way (Preferably behind Gai, not directly behind though) and counter attack after Hirudora goes on past.

Not to mention Gai can't stay in Gates for extended periods of time without getting tired, while Ay can fight in his armor for much longer periods of time. Gai either dies to Ay in CQC while Gates are on, or he gets his shit wrecked by Ay after Gates run out.

 

[WolfHaley]

Gai should win with the power of youth.

 

[Touken]

Still not seeing how any of this supports your point. Why exactly will Gai's kicks and punches affect him more than Chidori? It being Raiton has absolutely nothing to do with it. Nothing at all.

Because his kicks and punches aren't Raiton based, already said this before. Chidori wasn't effective against Ay because he had a Raiton armour, and that stopped Sasuke from fully piercing Ay, whereas it isn't going to soften Gai's blows.

And now I'll be waiting for you to bring evidence of this. "Its harder to gather Air Pressure in the water" Isn't conclusive or convincing evidence that a 5th Gate Hirudora will be stronger than a 7th Gate Hirudora whether its in the water or not.

Because there's barely any air pressure while underwater. Pressure only increases as you go down and it's obvious they didn't fight on the seabed.

The explosion occurred above and below water. I don't know how you came to the conclusion it was muted underwater since we only see it above water but obviously, that isn't conclusive evidence. Kisame not taking the full force of the explosion is nothing but a baseless assumption.

Of course it's conclusive evidence. If the explosion was as big underwater as it was above water then there'd be much, much bigger waves. Is that the case? No.

@bold: Ok? Doesn't change the fact that his Hirudora didn't even kill Kisame.

lol, I can make that conclusion since a Hirudora weaker than one that couldn't kill Kisame isn't going to smash Susanoo. You can't say that it was broken for that same reason.

Not to mention you come here saying it was broken without any other supporting evidence, but when I say it wasn't broken with supporting evidence, I can't make that conclusion since it wasn't shown again....Lol

The fact that we don't see it points to the conclusion that it was destroyed. What reason would Madara have to suddenly deactivate Susanoo?

Ay went in for a strike against Sasuke while Sasuke did the same, how you equate that to be Ay's set striking speed is beyond me. Lol, not even sure if serious.....Bee's physical strength is greater than Gai's by feats.

Ay smashed this cliff, and his physical strength is inferior to Killer B's. [

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] Smashing someone through a wall is child's play in comparison. Note that Killer B can't replicate this feat since his striking strength is inferior to Ay's.

Sasuke was able to get around Ay's Elbow attack, so the only inference that could be made is it was slow enough for Sasuke to both dodge and land a strike on him, which concludes Ay's striking speed is easily reacted to.

You do know that Ay was going at full speed then, and that speed also plays a factor? It's much easier to best your opponent in an arm wrestle if you have leverage and the same thing applies to this scenario. It isn't child's play at all, especially not when Ay's feat of smashing the cliff was mainly due to being in V2.

Ay is strong enough to break through a Ribcage Susanoo, and we've already seen Liger Bomb.

Gai's punches aren't doing squat to Ay. Killer B knocking him back with Lariat doesn't mean that Gai's punches are even going to affect Ay let alone knock him back with every punch, that's a laughable thought. Especially if the hits get blocked, which is a simple task for Ay.

lol, you honestly think Bee in base is stronger than Gai in Gates? If the hit gets blocked, he's still being knocked back, but the damage done to his actual body won't be much, which is what happened when Madara went up against Naruto and Sai.

While he's in CQC with him? lol, no, its not. Not to mention avoiding this shouldn't bee too hard considering he can avoid Jugo's laser cannon at point blank range, all he needs to do is Shunshin out of the way (Preferably behind Gai, not directly behind though) and counter attack after Hirudora goes on past.

He has no reason to Shunshin behind Gai after he's used Hirudora seeing as he has no intel on the tech. He'd do the same thing he did against Amaterasu, and

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, and then he'll be caught in the blast radius of Hirudora seeing as the explosion's instantaneous, unlike Juugo's attack which charged up right in front of his eyes.

Not to mention Gai can't stay in Gates for extended periods of time without getting tired, while Ay can fight in his armor for much longer periods of time. Gai either dies to Ay in CQC while Gates are on, or he gets his shit wrecked by Ay after Gates run out.

He's able to shake off using 6th Gate, the 5th Gate shouldn't be a problem for him. He beats Ay with Gates on in CQC, seeing as it allows him to punch fast enough to produce flames (Asa Kujaku). He obviously won't be able to punch as fast as that in the 5th Gate, but definitely close enough.

 

[Izuna Kakashi Senju]

Yondaime Raikage takes it.