Full powered Juubi's TBB vs Indra's Arrow

[LuckyMan]

By scaling Naruto's TBBRS should be>Juubi TBB after destroying Madara's Chibaku Tensei's. His new jutsu was amplified by all natural energy available and used in his Ashura mode. So it's pretty clear that its far stronger than something far stronger than the Juubi's TBB, even though it's on par with Indra's Arrow. So Indra's arrow clearly trumps.

Jubis feats are still better.

The Jubi

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TBB

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on any attack we seen from Nardo and Sauce. That TBB was a ant compared to

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. The fact that we saw this little things explosion go to the clouds and the light reach back to the fight, but we didn't see any of that from the many times more bigger one (by size I'd say about 15x or more but could be wrong) means Minato warped it much farther than any of us really think and the shock-wave of that explosion was still felt back on the battlefield. No explosions/light or shock-waves affected the shinobi alliance who were on the

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of the God Tree when Naruto launched those attacks at Madara. If Narutos attack was > Juubi Max TBB all of them would have been obliterated.

We never agree on anything so I know we're not going to agree but just wanted to give my point of view.

 

[Ansatsuken]

I laugh at Sennin of Logic debate with Bronze here.

I think its more about superiority complex debate than actual logical debate.

I saw many flaws there, but I dont have much time to type long ass post just to deliver my point although I can.

Bronze saw the clear image.

 

[Sennin of Logic]

Complete Ten tails Host(Hagoromo)'s full powered charged Ten tails's TBB ~ combined Naruto's && Sasuke's attack at vote in the end of manga > Naruto's TBB FRS/Sasuke's Indra arrow

Almost Complete Ten tails Host(Madara)'s full powered charged Ten tails's TBB ~ Naruto's TBB FRS/Sasuke's Indra arrow

Incomplete Ten tails Host(Obito)'s full powered charged Ten Tails's TBB < Naruto's TBB FRS/Sasuke's Indra arrow

Incomplete v2 Ten tails full powered charged Ten tails's TBB << Naruto's TBB FRS/Sasuke's Indara arrow

Incomplete v2 Ten tails casual TBB <<< Naruto's TBB FRS/Sasuke's Indra arrow

Incomplete v1 Ten tails's TBB <<<<<< Naruto's TBB FRS/Sasuke's Indra arrow

^^ I can debate against anyone to prove this.

I could see this if having more biju chakra makes the juubi stronger. I suspect not because of this.

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The potency isn't different at all. The difference is that being revived with less biju chakra puts him in its lower stages, and takes time for it to improve whereas being revived in all of them puts it in its later stage. This was the last stage of the juubi. I can't see how it becomes more powerful. The Juubi TBB isn't stronger from Indra's arrow. It'd have to be something different.

I laugh at Sennin of Logic debate with Bronze here.

I think its more about superiority complex debate than actual logical debate.

I saw many flaws there, but I dont have much time to type long ass post just to deliver my point although I can.

Bronze saw the clear image.

Bronze was the one who started off with the insults. Basically, I decided to give him the same crap he gives me, and it escalates from there. I'll stop when he stops.


Back to the debate:

Then counter this. How can Juubito easily defend against the Juubi TBB when Naruto, with superior Rikkudo charka, can't defend against Indra's arrow in the same way, and was overwhelmed by the indirect blast from it? Can anyone come up with a plausible explanation? Simply put, the Juubi TBB shouldn't be stronger.

 

[Ansatsuken]

I could see this if having more biju chakra makes the juubi stronger. I suspect not because of this.

Spoiler

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The potency isn't different at all. The difference is that being revived with less biju chakra puts him in its lower stages, and takes time for it to improve whereas being revived in all of them puts it in its later stage. This was the last stage of the juubi. I can't see how it becomes more powerful. The Juubi TBB isn't stronger from Indra's arrow. It'd have to be something different.





Bronze was the one who started off with the insults. Basically, I decided to give him the same crap he gives me, and it escalates from there. I'll stop when he stops.


Back to the debate:

Then counter this. How can Juubito easily defend against the Juubi TBB when Naruto, with superior Rikkudo charka, can't defend against Indra's arrow in the same way, and was overwhelmed by the indirect blast from it? Can anyone come up with a plausible explanation? Simply put, the Juubi TBB shouldn't be stronger.

The question should be like this, Was Naruto using TSB shield at that time when Indra Arrow is shot at him?

In your scan, did you saw Naruto using TSB shield?

Dont brought here any answer like 'Naruto thought TSB shield cant tank it' or 'Naruto dont want to use TSB'

What I want is the picture or fact that Naruto utilize TSB shield and fail

If no, its not easy to compared Naruto and Juubito.

After that question is answer, we will proceed to next phase, that's how I work.

 

[Seventh Sama]

Jubis feats are still better.

The Jubi

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TBB

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on any attack we seen from Nardo and Sauce. That TBB was a ant compared to

You must be registered for see links

. The fact that we saw this little things explosion go to the clouds and the light reach back to the fight, but we didn't see any of that from the many times more bigger one (by size I'd say about 15x or more but could be wrong) means Minato warped it much farther than any of us really think and the shock-wave of that explosion was still felt back on the battlefield. No explosions/light or shock-waves affected the shinobi alliance who were on the

You must be registered for see links

of the God Tree when Naruto launched those attacks at Madara. If Narutos attack was > Juubi Max TBB all of them would have been obliterated.

We never agree on anything so I know we're not going to agree but just wanted to give my point of view.

Once again, large aoe doesn't always mean a stronger attack. Proof? Might gai's evening elephant is stronger than the juubi tbb. Might gai actually breached through the tsb shield whereas four juubidama didnt do nothing to the tsb shield. (Juubidamas do have nature energy in them so dont try to bring up that they dont)

 

[Sennin of Logic]

The question should br like this, Was Naruto using TSB shield at that time when Indra Arrow is shoot at him?

In your scan, did you saw Naruto using TSB shild?

Dont brought here any answer like 'Naruto thought TSB shield cant tank it' or 'Naruto dont want to use TSB'

What I want is the picture or fact that Naruto utilize TSB shield and fail

If no, its not easy to compared Naruto and Juubito

@ bold Why? Give me a reason why said argument isn't legit when Kurama stated that if Naruto didn't get all that natural energy to use his own attack to resist it, that he'd have blown away immediately?

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This is a direct way of saying that nothing else could have enabled Naruto to survive the attack. If he would have been killed in any other method, then it definitely means that an ordinary TSB shield would have been blown away. Also consider that Naruto has demonstrated TSB potency far above Obito, and likely used a huge TSB as a TBBRS.

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[KCMNaruto]

I could see this if having more biju chakra makes the juubi stronger. I suspect not because of this.

Spoiler

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The potency isn't different at all. The difference is that being revived with less biju chakra puts him in its lower stages, and takes time for it to improve whereas being revived in all of them puts it in its later stage. This was the last stage of the juubi. I can't see how it becomes more powerful. The Juubi TBB isn't stronger from Indra's arrow. It'd have to be something different.

Good point. The potency may indeed be no different due to Juubi being able to absorb nature energy from around which allow him to ascend to higher levels even begining from low level as you said. Of course Juubi had to absorb enough nature energy to enter's it's final state, however I disagree for some reasons as:

1) It was never stated or shown that Ten tails need full recovered amount of chakra equal FULL NINE beasts to ENTER Final state/form
2) Manga has never stated or shown that Ten tails reached it's 100 % of potential chakra(which it had originally)
3) Ten tails was absorbed by Obito before it could even enter's it's final form, also later when Obito let it go, the manga has never stated/shown that as God Tree it could still absorb chakra.
4) Both Kurama and Gyuuki seemed to do pretty fine against Ten tails.

I know it may be wrong example, but anyway I will use this example from another manga:

If you watched Dragon ball manga, then quite early after Sayian saga there was villain called Frieza. He had various forms/stages and he powered up to his final form, in which he initialy was only at 1% or 10%of his full power in that state.

Yeah it may sounds farfetched etc. However considering lack of proofs against what I listed in points and considering Kishi is great fan of dragon ball I would say it would be possible.
In Other words although Juubi entered it's final form, it would still be far from it's full power as it was originally(against Hagoormo) and close to it but above this form we talk about(Madara).

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^^ Here Obito proves my words by stating this(top right panel), which means even Obito knows that Juubi had only chakra enough to enter it's final form, however it is still far from full power, as Obito only saig getting some more chakra would allow tree to blossom faster, and it is obvious that Complete Original Ten tails could blossom in God Tree form from get go.

 

[Ansatsuken]

@ bold Why? Give me a reason why said argument isn't legit when Kurama stated that if Naruto didn't get all that natural energy to use his own attack to resist it, that he'd have blown away immediately?

Spoiler

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This is a direct way of saying that nothing else could have enabled Naruto to survive the attack. If he would have been killed in any other method, then it definitely means that an ordinary TSB shield would have been blown away. Also consider that Naruto has demonstrated TSB potency far above Obito, and likely used a huge TSB as a TBBRS.

Spoiler

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First image not functioning

Still, I will response to the first question.

-Its because Kurama never thinking about TSB that Naruto had on his back to cover all Kurama Avatar, but that TSB is to small that only Naruto is fit inside it as Naruto is not Juubi jin like Juubito, where's Juubito able to produced TSB elements in any shape and size.

-But still Naruto didn't gave us any hint in the manga about possibility that TSB will fail to tank Indra attack. That's mean you cant being to convince with your idea or thinking.

-Sure he show us TSB base TBBFRS for attack, but he still lacking a feats of using advanced TSB for defend or shield.

-In debate, feats of all sort is important as you also doesn't like speculation or assumption.

-50/50 regarding of TSB debate here.

-But for me TSB still retain it ability to tank an energy base attack.

 

[LuckyMan]

Once again, large aoe doesn't always mean a stronger attack. Proof? Might gai's evening elephant is stronger than the juubi tbb. Might gai actually breached through the tsb shield whereas four juubidama didnt do nothing to the tsb shield. (Juubidamas do have nature energy in them so dont try to bring up that they dont)

Jubidamas having natural energy don't mean anything since Naruto and Minatos Bijuu Dama also had natural energy but couldn't break through Obitos shield. Having natural energy doesn't let you destroy the TSB. Obito was blocking the Juubis power(4 TBB) with the Juubis power (TSB) so they would naturally cancel each other out.

 

[Amaterasu]

-Sure he show us TSB base TBBFRS for attack, but he still lacking a feats of using advanced TSB for defend or shield.

Are you serious ? His first use of TSB was defensive :

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[Sennin of Logic]

First image not functioning

Still, I will response to the first question.

It's working. Just guess whatever image program you use isn't compatible. (happens to me to with other things)

-Its because Kurama never thinking about TSB that Naruto had on his back to cover all Kurama Avatar, but that TSB is to small that only Naruto is fit inside it as Naruto is not Juubi jin like Juubito, where's Juubito able to produced TSB elements in any shape and size.

-But still Naruto didn't gave us any hint in the manga about possibility that TSB will fail to tank Indra attack. That's mean you cant being to convince with your idea or thinking.

-Sure he show us TSB base TBBFRS for attack, but he still lacking a feats of using advanced TSB for defend or shield.

Naruto can also freely use his TSBs in any shape. It's just that he hasn't found them as useful as things like Ransenshuriiken.

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There's no reason to believe that he can't use the basic function of the TSBs whereas Obito, with no experience with the jutsu whatsoever, can. Naruto's more or less like Madara. Neither of them used the TSBs shape-shifting abilities quite like Obito, but rather used them like projectiles most of the time, while only occasionally changing their shape. This is like saying Madara can't form giant hands with his TSBs. Also, misconception. TSBs come from blossomed Rikkudo chakra. No other requirements are mentioned for them in their databook section.

-In debate, feats of all sort is important as you also doesn't like speculation or assumption.

-50/50 regarding of TSB debate here.

-But for me TSB still retain it ability to tank an energy base attack.

I'd argue that saying Naruto can't use it as a shield when all previous users can is speculation when the manga hasn't stated Naruto can't do so.


Regardless, this isn't the only evidence. Juubi TBBs couldn't completely take out the tree that spawned it, whereas Naruto could take out the holy tree (which is much bigger) with nothing but a lava RS. Of course, Naruto landed a direct hit while the Juubi TBBs didn't, but take into consideration that A. This wasn't a fully powered-up Naruto B. That attack is surpassed by his other ones, showing that they're far more powerful than that.

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[Bronze]

Then counter this. How can Juubito easily defend against the Juubi TBB when Naruto, with superior Rikkudo charka, can't defend against Indra's arrow in the same way, and was overwhelmed by the indirect blast from it? Can anyone come up with a plausible explanation? Simply put, the Juubi TBB shouldn't be stronger.

Obito can nullify Ninjutsu; Naruto can't.

 

[Omar19992010]

Once again, large aoe doesn't always mean a stronger attack. Proof? Might gai's evening elephant is stronger than the juubi tbb. Might gai actually breached through the tsb shield whereas four juubidama didnt do nothing to the tsb shield. (Juubidamas do have nature energy in them so dont try to bring up that they dont)

I'm pretty sure Obito's Attacks nullify Ninjutsu. The Juubi TBB couldn't have had had Senjutsu considering Hashirama and Madara were perfectly fine from the blast so that means the TSB nullified it.

 

[Seventh Sama]

I'm pretty sure Obito's Attacks nullify Ninjutsu. The Juubi TBB couldn't have had had Senjutsu considering Hashirama and Madara were perfectly fine from the blast so that means the TSB nullified it.

It does considering that it has bijuu chakra mixed with nature energy. They regenerated off panel since PS and wood golem were gone.

Jubidamas having natural energy don't mean anything since Naruto and Minatos Bijuu Dama also had natural energy but couldn't break through Obitos shield. Having natural energy doesn't let you destroy the TSB. Obito was blocking the Juubis power(4 TBB) with the Juubis power (TSB) so they would naturally cancel each other out.

Their bijuudama wasn't powerful to break it that's why and lol yeah it does. A strong enough senjutsu attack would break/slice through TSB. Just like how madara sliced through naruto's TSB stick

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[Sennin of Logic]

Obito can nullify Ninjutsu; Naruto can't.

That's not true actually. Omnyoudon is basically yin-yang release, which the databook states Naruto has perfect mastery of. Naruto hasn't fought a single person that doesn't have natural energy/sage chakra on their side, so it, of course, can't delete any of there attacks. There's no basis for Naruto to not have it. Omnyoudon is something you get from having Rikkudo chakra bloom, which Naruto did. It doesn't come from the rinnegan, as Obito did not have it until he was a juubi jin. Therefore, it's an ability Naruto has.


Regardless, that's ultimately irrelevant. What I think you're trying to say is that "Obito deleted his own TBBs." Which is impossible. Juubi Jin's can't delete natural energy, and the TBBs have natural energy inside of them, as the Juubi (which was used to create them) is consistent entirely of senjutsu. Erasing a Juubi Jin's TBB is impossible even amoung fellow Juubi Jins.

I'm pretty sure Obito's Attacks nullify Ninjutsu. The Juubi TBB couldn't have had had Senjutsu considering Hashirama and Madara were perfectly fine from the blast so that means the TSB nullified it.

That's not the point Omar. The point is whether or not it contains natural energy. Natural energy isn't what destroys edos, it's the omnyoudon, which has only been shown to effect those physically touching the Juubi jin or his TSBs. It has nothing to do with natural energy.

 

[Bronze]

The databook made a contradiction in his capacity of Yin-Yang. It says his Gududama contain essences of Yin-Yang, but it classifies him as Yang user on his stats:

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If he possessed Yin-Yang, that would unbalance the Yin and Yang between him and Sasuke. So, mentioning the databook and its contradicted documents isn't helping you. And while we are on that, the Onmyoudon is a Yin-Yang basis technique; not a Jutsu granted by Rikudou's Chakra. There was never an instant where Naruto made use of Onmyoudon, and along with the evidences to support he's unable of it, nothing should be argued.

Juubi is mass of Natural Energy, doesn't mean its attacks will always be. The TBB have black and white Chakra, as Bee explained its functioning. And to actually further the TBB isn't always intact with Senjutsu is, when Naruto stated he will add it when breaching Obito's defence.

 

[Ansatsuken]

Are you serious ? His first use of TSB was defensive :

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What I mean by defending from attack is that Naruto using TSB to cover all of his body like how Juubito and Rikudou Madara did against 4 TBB and incoming Guy attack

Not throwing TSB stick.

 

[Ansatsuken]

It's working. Just guess whatever image program you use isn't compatible. (happens to me to with other things)



Naruto can also freely use his TSBs in any shape. It's just that he hasn't found them as useful as things like Ransenshuriiken.

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There's no reason to believe that he can't use the basic function of the TSBs whereas Obito, with no experience with the jutsu whatsoever, can. Naruto's more or less like Madara. Neither of them used the TSBs shape-shifting abilities quite like Obito, but rather used them like projectiles most of the time, while only occasionally changing their shape. This is like saying Madara can't form giant hands with his TSBs. Also, misconception. TSBs come from blossomed Rikkudo chakra. No other requirements are mentioned for them in their databook section.




I'd argue that saying Naruto can't use it as a shield when all previous users can is speculation when the manga hasn't stated Naruto can't do so.


Regardless, this isn't the only evidence. Juubi TBBs couldn't completely take out the tree that spawned it, whereas Naruto could take out the holy tree (which is much bigger) with nothing but a lava RS. Of course, Naruto landed a direct hit while the Juubi TBBs didn't, but take into consideration that A. This wasn't a fully powered-up Naruto B. That attack is surpassed by his other ones, showing that they're far more powerful than that.

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we can speculate anything

I didn't doubt that Naruto able to use TSB like Obito does, but feats is more important here than other debate like Kamui and Kaguya dimensions, it's because TSB feats is done by numbers of different peoples previously.

While Madara shown to shape his TSB to shield or defence, Naruto never shown it even when fighting with Kaguya.

I not like other fans around here, I debate on the basis of facts material unless we want to create a theory.

What I already saw in the manga is my guideline.

Naruto cutting Shinju not blowing it up like Obito's TBB does, looks still we got different situation there that you tried to make them similar.

 

[Brooks]

A) incomplete juubi

Irrelevant...the Juubi's Dama is still weaker than Indra's Arrow in any form.​

B) obito broke it by pulling in instead of pushing out.

The key word here is "power"...push or pull have absolute nothing to do with the feat displayed by those Chakra arms.

Apparently, you're claiming it's easier to pull than to push the barrier(which is an absolute non-sense).​

 

[Hokage4]

Indra arrow doesn't stand a chance