In my opinion, there's a fine line between teaching and forcing. If your religion requires you to bring your children to sessions of worship, do so. If you believe in something, teach your kid it. If you're Muslim, teach your kids Islam. If you're Christian, teach them Christianity. If you're atheist, do so. But, be sure that's it's known that this is your belief. Let your kids know it's okay to pursue other beliefs if that's what they perceive as truth, let them know it's okay that if you're atheist and they want to be a part of religion, that they can pursue that.
I was raised in a very religious household, and was taught constantly all of my life that Christianity was the truth. I was still able to come to my own decision as to what my religious views are, so in my eyes, there is nothing wrong with teaching your children that your religion is the truth. At the end of the day, they'll either look at the world and determine if that's the truth or not, or live their lives accepting that's the truth. As long as they're decent people, both are equally fine
If you are a Muslim you should be well aware of the concept of heresy ("bidah") in your religion: like ISIS (and other jihadists), Im not going to take your word for anything; if you are going to convince me, what you need to do is adduce what ISIS have -the likes of Ibn Taymiyah, say- show me an orthodox interpretation from the people who literally codified Islamic law, otherwise its no good (for ISIS or for me). Now do you understand the problem? Islam is an INTRINSICALLY militant religion: ISIS and other terrorists will always exist because verses and hadith of the nature that they are inspired by -and people like Ibn Taymiyah who interpreted them at face value- exist.
The Bible is a collection of stories (some like those from the OT are indeed about violence and even genocide) about a Semitic peoples and a Semitic man. The KKKs interpretation of the Bible would be comparable to something like someone interpreting Harry Potter as a science textbook, not ISIS. But more importantly, neither the Jews nor the Christians, in the west at least, take their texts seriously anymore. Now the Quran and Hadith describe the sayings and life of a very successful Arabian warlord who conquered the Arabian peninsula, engaging in religious-tribal genocide in the process (e.g. against the Jews of Medina). What you are telling me is that a "real Muslim" is someone who only selectively practices his/her religion. That is fine and all -after all thats essentially the majority of Jews and Christians these days- but don't tout that crap about Islam in and of itself being peaceful.
Once again, you hit the nail on the head. Although, I must say, the Islamic religion itself is not the sole cause for the violence with ISIS and what not. The regions where the violence is going on, are almost "intrinsically" unstable regions of the world for various reasons.(mainly the Middle east). For example, Indonesia is the biggest Muslim country in the world, but it's a relatively peaceful country.(at least when compared to the mess in the ME)
OT: I personally believe that you should teach your kid your core values, and if that includes religion, then so be it. However, do NOT shove your beliefs down their throats, as that obviously makes them feel oppressed and melancholy. I am obviously referring to religion and other similar matters though. There are some things like basic behaviour that you may need to be a little forceful with.
Eventually, they will find they will develop their own beliefs over time, and it will invariably be slightly different to yours at best-even if they follow the same religion. It's sort of like that game we used to play as kids(forgot the name of it): We would sit in a circle, and one kid would whisper something to the next kid in the circle. Eventually, at the end of the circle, the "message" at the end would be different to what it was at the start.
I honestly think that it's really none of your business, or anyone's for that matter. People are allowed to raise their kids however they like (Within reason, i mean seriously). And I have no clue what you're talking about when you say that it makes you cringe when kids say something like "god told me to do it." I've never heard anything even remotely close to that come out of a kids mouth. And if it's not that they're saying, it will be something else stupid... So again, why does it matter to you. To me it just feels like an elaborate scheme to force your own non-religious or Atheistic beliefs down other peoples throats, because this thread makes absolutely no sense, and has no purpose lol. xD
Also, if it's not you trying to force your OWN beliefs on other people, it is you attempting to start conflict, things like this always start conflict. And it's sad that all some people want to do is debate/fight over malarkey.
But I think I should at least try to answer your... Strange question. And that would be that I don't see a problem with religious people or atheists pushing their beliefs onto their children, up to the age of 14 which is about where they can start deciding on whether or not they really agree with their parents views. (and that's at the very youngest) After around age 15, if you're still trying to force your beliefs onto your young one after seeing that they have no interest then it's not right in my opinion.
Once again, you hit the nail on the head. Although, I must say, the Islamic religion itself is not the sole cause for the violence with ISIS and what not. The regions where the violence is going on, are almost "intrinsically" unstable regions of the world for various reasons.(mainly the Middle east).
Of course islam is not the sole cause for violence, as religion is almost never the sole cause for violence. Saying that islam is intrinsically militant, in my opinion is a misleading statement. The Quran talks about war, yeah. It also talks about having a military, yeah. It establishes the necessity of fighting, yeah. Just like any constitution. But it also talks about the conditions and limits of fighting- as expected of a constitution. It several times says 'do not transgress', because transgressors won't go to paradise. This hasn't changed or been abrogated or whatever. So yeah, islam may regulate military, but it doesn't mean it should be used for aggression. Almost all countries have militaries. It doesn't mean they are to be used for offense. The US alsone has enough nuclear weapons to destroy the world. So, saying that as long as islam exists, there cannot be peace (yeah there are some people who say that), is like saying that as long as nuclear power exists, there cannot be peace, because there always will be people who will want to use it for offense. Humans are violent creatures. We are born predators. Therefore all societies have to be prepared to use violence.
We should also look into the environment in which islam was born: desert nomads, amongst whom tribal warfare was an everyday thing. Islam actually brought forth a consolation for their fights and abolished many barbaric traditions. But you cannot expect a people to change in a few years. Then, by the time they noticed, the Arabs were already in charge of an empire and had to face the same issues as every empire. Empires fight. Just like the Christian empires did.
Today the problem is the separation of religion and politics. As I said, the Quran is supposed to be the constitution, and in some muslim countries it is referred to as the only source of legislation. (Yet, interestingly, we don't see muslim countries starting wars all the time). The Quran is unchangeable, but is up to interpretation. There may be some things that cannot be re-interpreted, though. But there are juristic methods (ijtihad, takhayyur, talfiq) that allow scholars to draw their own conclusions on an issue. They are allowed to choose the most favorable interpretation, they can even mix interpretations from the 4 main schools. Islamic jurisprudence is more flexible than what islamophobes say. There are attempts at reforms, what they need is more willingness."Indeed, Allah will not change the condition of a people until they change what is in themselves." (Quran 13:11) But the no. 1 principle of cultural anthropology is not to judge a culture based on our era and our society, because it will only lead to distorted conclusions. Even in the secular western world, a few decades ago women couldn't vote, blacks were segregated etc. The UN Declaration on Human Rights is only 66 years old. The Covenant on Civil and Political Rights is from 48 years ago. Etc. So what are we talking about? I don't think it's fair to expect a totally different culture to adopt to our standards in just 2 generations.
Now terrorism is an interesting breed. Actually, Bin Laden, in justification of Al-Kaida's actions, referred to self-defense, based on the Quran. So even terrorists are aware that islam talks about self-defensive war. [
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] What may cause a headache is what excuse to use for claiming to be attacked. In his manifesto, Bin Laden talks about for example the palestines being killed. And many muslims think that the West has declared war on them. George W. Bush was talking about god, he used the word 'crusade', there you go. Miscommunication? Misunderstanding? Maybe. But to muslims, the US is just as "intrinsically" militant and violent, for starting a war on the false premise of forbidden weapons in Iraq. I have no intentions of going into details or take sides, I'm just presenting the muslim side of the story. I think it's only fair to look at all sides of the dice.
So I think whether islam is 'intrinsically' militant is a matter of perspective. If we look at the context of the continuously cited 9:5, to me it's pretty clear that it talks about defensive war. So if someone says that islam is inherently violent and that's the only interpretation: well that person is quite ignorant. Anyway, everyone can do the research for themselves and decide for themselves, what I don't like is when someone tries to shove off his opinion as the "one truth".
9:4 Excepted are those with whom you made a treaty among the polytheists and then they have not been deficient toward you in anything or supported anyone against you; so complete for them their treaty until their term [has ended]. Indeed, Allah loves the righteous [who fear Him].
9:5
And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they should repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, let them [go] on their way. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.
9:6 And if any one of the polytheists seeks your protection, then grant him protection so that he may hear the words of Allah . Then deliver him to his place of safety. That is because they are a people who do not know.
9:7
How can there be for the polytheists a treaty in the sight of Allah and with His Messenger, except for those with whom you made a treaty at al-Masjid al-Haram? So as long as they are upright toward you, be upright toward them. Indeed, Allah loves the righteous [who fear Him].
9:13
Would you not fight a people who broke their oaths and determined to expel the Messenger, and they had begun [the attack upon] you the first time? Do you fear them? But Allah has more right that you should fear Him, if you are [truly] believers.
There is this nice story from a child anime in which a character doesn't have belief in himself and is afraid of trying to pursue that which he wants. Someone gave him an omen and told him this would help him find inner strength and achieve his goals if he kept it on him. He suddenly bloomed with confidence, spiritual strength and liveliness and, eventually, achieved his goals. After doing so, he realized he lost his omen before the great trial and the person that gave him that omen told him he'd done it all by himself, the omen wasn't even on him.
Moral of the story: You guessed it. Stop deluding yourself.
I honestly think that it's really none of your business, or anyone's for that matter. People are allowed to raise their kids however they like (Within reason, i mean seriously). And I have no clue what you're talking about when you say that it makes you cringe when kids say something like "god told me to do it." I've never heard anything even remotely close to that come out of a kids mouth. And if it's not that they're saying, it will be something else stupid... So again, why does it matter to you. To me it just feels like an elaborate scheme to force your own non-religious or Atheistic beliefs down other peoples throats, because this thread makes absolutely no sense, and has no purpose lol. xD
Also, if it's not you trying to force your OWN beliefs on other people, it is you attempting to start conflict, things like this always start conflict. And it's sad that all some people want to do is debate/fight over malarkey.
But I think I should at least try to answer your... Strange question. And that would be that I don't see a problem with religious people or atheists pushing their beliefs onto their children, up to the age of 14 which is about where they can start deciding on whether or not they really agree with their parents views. (and that's at the very youngest) After around age 15, if you're still trying to force your beliefs onto your young one after seeing that they have no interest then it's not right in my opinion.
My post make no sense but apparently a comment that says it's okay to force something on a kid up to a certain age makes sense. Logic. That's a funny comment though.
My post make no sense but apparently a comment that says it's okay to force something on a kid up to a certain age makes sense. Logic. That's a funny comment though.
At what point did I claim that it was ok for parents to force anything on their kids up to whatever age? Pushing does not mean forcing. They're two completely different words with completely different definitions.
By pushing, I mean teaching. For example "Son you should always be generous, it's the lords etc etc." Not, (straps son into a chair and begins hitting him with a bat) "CHRIST IS LORD MOTHER****ER, OUR LORD AND SAVIOR!" (continues hitting with bat).
But in all honest let me be a bit more gracious. Lightly teaching your practice of religion to your children should be ok. But FORCING them in any way is wrong.
But I guess my main point is that, kids are kids. They won't learn anything if they're not "forced" too. It's like asking if it's right to force an education onto your child. It may not necessarily be "right" but the parent would deem it necessary.
At what point did I claim that it was ok for parents to force anything on their kids up to whatever age? Pushing does not mean forcing. They're two completely different words with completely different definitions.
By pushing, I mean teaching. For example "Son you should always be generous, it's the lords etc etc." Not, (straps son into a chair and begins hitting him with a bat) "CHRIST IS LORD MOTHER****ER, OUR LORD AND SAVIOR!" (continues hitting with bat).
But in all honest let me be a bit more gracious. Lightly teaching your practice of religion to your children should be ok. But FORCING them in any way is wrong.
But I guess my main point is that, kids are kids. They won't learn anything if they're not "forced" too. It's like asking if it's right to force an education onto your child. It may not necessarily be "right" but the parent would deem it necessary.
That not forcing or pushing what you said. That's just teaching. I was talking about those hardcore parents that don't explain to there kids stuff and tell them if they don't believe in something they are going to die or go to hell and the parents that beat there kids into that stuff.
The good news that Jesus died for both you and I for our sins that we have committed and now we don't have to slaves to sin to keep us captive, and to be granted eternal life with Jesus when we die.
The good news that Jesus died for both you and I for our sins that we have committed and now we don't have to slaves to sin to keep us captive, and to be granted eternal life with Jesus when we die.
I was raised a muslim, still am, was never forced by my parents, my father in fact encouraged me to search for what I believe is right, I studied my religion really well, as well as other religions. In a sense, I can say I'm glad.
And teaching your kids your own religion is not a bad thing, if it resorts to force "this is right my boi, the athiests, jews, pagans, guys who study astronomy, is totally invalid son" is wrong, teach the child, nothing wrong with that, if he wishes to change, move on, research other beliefs sparking his interest, allow him to do so, oppression caused by their beliefs on the child will just create further problems and instead of following and understanding your beliefs, they'd begin to abhor and despise it.
Why do people like you say that I'm brainwashed? When you don't know the whole story of why I chose to believe what I believe. Stop making assumptions that you have no clue what happened the day I became a believer. I never was forced to believe, it was my own choice to make.
Why do people like you say that I'm brainwashed? When you don't know the whole story of why I chose to believe what I believe. Stop making assumptions that you have no clue what happened the day I became a believer. I never was forced to believe, it was my own choice to make.
I mean ''slaves of sin''? I've spoken to one of my good friends and he basically said if you're a rapist, ruined a child's life, and you repent for it by praying and asking god's forgiveness, you'd still go to heaven. Christian logic. Plus, heaven is just another word for sky. The answers are in the sky which refers to astrology. Heaven and hell; symbolically, refer to what we make of this earth ourselves. If I barge into your house, beat you and your dad up, tie you up and make you watch me rape your mum, I create your hell. If you have a beautiful wife and 2 children, the bond between your and your family is strong and you're somewhere on a flawless vacation, you experience heaven, maybe. As heaven is a state of being.
In my interpretation, being a slave means living without being able to wander and wonder. Society stole our ability to wonder and be free. What you call satanic is for me the agenda of enslaving mankind, robbing them of wonder. Instead, you just focus on an imaginary figure that will drag you into hell if you're not a good boy, completely ignoring the shit we are in today.
The bible is so profound in its implications but not always meant to be interpreted directly. It's still, as a matter of fact, just a story.
A message. You know the tortoise and the hare story in which the hare easily lets the tortoise bite the dust in the race but is so arrogant that he takes a quick nap. The tortoise sneaks over the finish line, leaving the hare in a drowzy state of shame. This story has a moral but religious nuts would spent so much time arguing about what kind of tortoise it was, where this story would take place to try and proof it actually happened as to support their faith for the hallelujer tortoise our god, completely ignoring the underlying message.
Christians like to spout ''amen'' and ''hail jezus'', do they even know where the word ''amen'' comes from? Doubt that very much.
It's just a terrible eyesore to see how people can revolve their life around something without KNOWING anything, but just believing. Even me and my astrotheology, I took it with a grain of salt in the beginning until I saw all the intertwining patterns and it made SENSE. Your faith does not make sense. I do not need a bible to tell me how to be a good person. I have never ever stolen anything in my entire life, I rarely backtalk people, I don't watch porn, blabla. I'm a better person than my muslim friends and the same type of person as my christian friend. You need an empathic ability, not the bible to tell you how to live your life. It's just a story wrapped around astrology. Go and see the origins of the holidays revolving around Jesus. Their origins are far older than JC.
