Fillers that come with new information should be considered canon

[Holy God]

If I came up with a random arc that fell completely in line with the story would you consider it canon? No. Having a company do it does not make it any different.

 

[Namar]

If I came up with a random arc that fell completely in line with the story would you consider it canon? No. Having a company do it does not make it any different.

If the writer does not fill the information within the manga, that you fill in with your filler. I would consider it canon since there will never ever be someone who will overwrite your information. That.. ofc unless the writer decides to use his lazy ass and fill the gaps.

 

[Holy God]

If the writer does not fill the information within the manga, that you fill in with your filler. I would consider it canon since there will never ever be someone who will overwrite your information. That.. ofc unless the writer decides to use his lazy ass and fill the gaps.

If that was your belief then literally anyone in the world could overwrite my filler information with their own. The story wouldn't even be the author's anymore but everyone's. What if I were to say Hagoromo never awakened the Sharingan, which falls completely in line the manga? Would you believe me or the animators?

 

[WalksInShadows]

I totally agree with the OP. However, filler haters absolutely worship Kishi's pen , so they are not courageous enough to branch out from Kishi-ism and consider any new content (regardless of how good that new content may be and regardless of whether or not it gives development and answers to characters and questions that they were constantly complaining about in the manga)

you can't really blame readers for that, particularly because fillers tend to take too many liberties and portray some extremely outlandish things, especially when it blatantly contradicts canon material.

 

[Floydical]

In this case, we can't recklessly dismiss this material as filler. There are several reasons why this case is different.

First, these stories are not outlandish and don't seem to contradict any canon material, that is usually proof #1 to dismiss filler. Second, Manga purists might deny Hagoromo would have ever had Sharingan, but him being born with Rinnegan is not logical either. Reason being, Kaguya never actually had it herself. The changing of Kaguya's DNA after consuming the fruit can explain this, but Hagoromo going straight to a Rinngan is still not logical because he lacked the Tomoe in the Rinnegan. Bottom line? Hogoromo developing the Rinnegan through a Sharingan transformation is logical, and it simply happened 1 generation earlier than we once thought.

Equally important is the fact that we are certain about one thing, that being Kishi was being rushed to finish this manga. He was put on a deadline of 700 chapters and no more. Its logical that he had to drop details or even drop additional storylines in order to meet the deadline. Its entirely possible that information like what we are seeing now was left out on purpose in order to meet said deadlines. The information we did receive in the manga is enough to get the point across, but fuzzy details that could be left up to our imagination are being explained now. Kishi could very well have been involved in these anime additions.

Lastly, Kishi has shown signs of either adopting Anime ideas or influencing them. In the Inheritors of the Will of Fire movie, character profiles of 3 of the main antagonist's sacrifices were later used by Kishi in the war. One being that chubby sensor type, another being the female scorch user and a third being the male explosion user. These characters became cannon AFTER they were anime-only. Not only that, but Kishi made Raiga canon in a flashback of the 7SM. He was from part one for heavens sake, and Kishi later adopted him.

The bottom line here is that some filler cannot be entirely brushed off as filler. The more logical and consistent with the manga it is, the more importance can be put on it. Most importantly, any added material very close to the end of the story should be thought about with extra consideration since Kishi was forced to rush the end of his manga.

 

[Ansatsuken]

In this case, we can't recklessly dismiss this material as filler. There are several reasons why this case is different.

First, these stories are not outlandish and don't seem to contradict any canon material, that is usually proof #1 to dismiss filler. Second, Manga purists might deny Hagoromo would have ever had Sharingan, but him being born with Rinnegan is not logical either. Reason being, Kaguya never actually had it herself. The changing of Kaguya's DNA after consuming the fruit can explain this, but Hagoromo going straight to a Rinngan is still not logical because he lacked the Tomoe in the Rinnegan. Bottom line? Hogoromo developing the Rinnegan through a Sharingan transformation is logical, and it simply happened 1 generation earlier than we once thought.

Equally important is the fact that we are certain about one thing, that being Kishi was being rushed to finish this manga. He was put on a deadline of 700 chapters and no more. Its logical that he had to drop details or even drop additional storylines in order to meet the deadline. Its entirely possible that information like what we are seeing now was left out on purpose in order to meet said deadlines. The information we did receive in the manga is enough to get the point across, but fuzzy details that could be left up to our imagination are being explained now. Kishi could very well have been involved in these anime additions.

Lastly, Kishi has shown signs of either adopting Anime ideas or influencing them. In the Inheritors of the Will of Fire movie, character profiles of 3 of the main antagonist's sacrifices were later used by Kishi in the war. One being that chubby sensor type, another being the female scorch user and a third being the male explosion user. These characters became cannon AFTER they were anime-only. Not only that, but Kishi made Raiga canon in a flashback of the 7SM. He was from part one for heavens sake, and Kishi later adopted him.

The bottom line here is that some filler cannot be entirely brushed off as filler. The more logical and consistent with the manga it is, the more importance can be put on it. Most importantly, any added material very close to the end of the story should be thought about with extra consideration since Kishi was forced to rush the end of his manga.

But why Databook never mentioned that Rinnegan came from Sharingan(evolution) or manga already told us about this through Madara where readers couldn't notice it

 

[Floydical]

But why Databook never mentioned that Rinnegan came from Sharingan(evolution) or manga already told us about this through Madara where readers couldn't notice it

Point me to a location that proves Hagoromo was born with Rinnegan. If there is that proof, than so be it. If there is no such evidence, than it still makes more sense to me that he evolved it from sharingan.

We know for a fact from Madara's case that it is possible afterall.

 

[Ansatsuken]

Point me to a location that proves Hagoromo was born with Rinnegan. If there is that proof, than so be it. If there is no such evidence, than it still makes more sense to me that he evolved it from sharingan.

We know for a fact from Madara's case that it is possible afterall.

In manga BZ said only two people ever 'awaken' Rinnegan. Mean Hagoromo one of them.

 

[Holy God]

Point me to a location that proves Hagoromo was born with Rinnegan. If there is that proof, than so be it. If there is no such evidence, than it still makes more sense to me that he evolved it from sharingan.

We know for a fact from Madara's case that it is possible afterall.

Madara's example proves to us the exact opposite. The Sharingan does not evolve into the Rinnegan. No Sharingan owner has been able to do so, including Indra. Hagoromo's DNA opts for the Rinnegan, which is why when Madara obtained similar DNA to him, he awakened the same eye as him.

 

[Floydical]

In manga BZ said only two people ever 'awaken' Rinnegan. Mean Hagoromo one of them.

Does that not add to the idea that he awakened it through sharingan? It certainly doesn't prove he was born with it.

Madara's example proves to us the exact opposite. The Sharingan does not evolve into the Rinnegan. No Sharingan owner has been able to do so, including Indra. Hagoromo's DNA opts for the Rinnegan, which is why when Madara obtained similar DNA to him, he awakened the same eye as him.

Just because having Hagoromo's DNA implies the development of Rinnegan does not mean it didn't come from Sharingan. By your logic, Naruto should have sprouted a Rinnegan having Hagoromo's DNA alone. Since Indra come from Hagoromo, your thoughts seem to imply a sharingan is not needed at all to obtain Rinnegan. This simply cannot be true.

Here's the thing; Hagoromo's DNA signature would have changed as soon as he awakened Rinnegan for the first time. Notice how he hasn't has his children yet in the Anime. I'm willing to bet he won't impregnate a wife until he's obtained Rinnegan. Once he has obtained Rinnegan, his DNA will be changed to include Rinnegan in its blueprint. By this logic, generations down the line with have the signature of Rinnegan built into their DNA, the reason Madara was able to awaken it.

So there is no way you can say for certain Hagoromo didn't have Sharingan first. Once he awakened Rinnegan, it was built into his DNA but before that, there was no trace of its existence. Reaching Rinnegan is not possible without first wielding a Sharigan and that alone drives home the logic that Hagoromo may indeed have started with a Sharingan himself.

 

[Ansatsuken]

Does that not add to the idea that he awakened it through sharingan? It certainly doesn't prove he was born with it.

I dont want to throw away a possibility.

 

[chaos control]

you can't really blame readers for that, particularly because fillers tend to take too many liberties and portray some extremely outlandish things, especially when it blatantly contradicts canon material.

Yeah , but filler haters drastically exaggerate how often fillers contradict the manga. They don't actually do it that often. However , filler haters see one contradiction every once in a blue moon and then all of a sudden it's "OMG fillers are always contradicting the manga". Even for the ones that do contradict the manga , they are usually not even relevant to the story (by relevant, I mean fillers like the current one or Itachi's story that actually expound on real manga events).

Also , what extremely outlandish things? Name me some examples.

I bet alot of these filler haters couldn't really even name 5 relevant filler episodes that actually contradict the manga or propose some outlandish thing.

Also on a side note: Kishi actually often contradicted himself! Examples include:

Hagoromo being established as the juubi jinchuuriki upon his introduction, but then it was later established that when Hagoromo and Hamura fought the juubi , they used six paths chibaku tensei and sealed her inside the moon (I actually have an explanation in mind for this , but this still could have been better written)

Minato and Kushina establishing that if Kushina had resealed Kurama back inside of her on the night of Naruto's birth, then Kushina would have just died with the fox inside her. Yet when Naruto had Kurama extracted , sealing yin Kurama inside of him was the way to save him.

Etc...

Do you see what I mean? Some of these fillers actually fix up some of Kishi's outlandish self contradictions and unclear writing. Already this Kaguya filler arc has cleared up what rikudou senjutsu really is , and we all know the confusion that people have had about that for years!

 

[LeSauce]

Can you guys pls stfu about fillers already?

They're ****ing fillers. They're no different than any other filler that has come out so why tf are you trying to make them canon now?

I'm sure there were fillers after part one that had someone make shit up and they're not ****ing canon.

 

[Holy God]

Just because having Hagoromo's DNA implies the development of Rinnegan does not mean it didn't come from Sharingan. By your logic, Naruto should have sprouted a Rinnegan having Hagoromo's DNA alone. Since Indra come from Hagoromo, your thoughts seem to imply a sharingan is not needed at all to obtain Rinnegan. This simply cannot be true.

Naruto does not have Hagoromo's DNA, so I don't know why you brought him in. Even Black Zetsu himself tried to get both transmigrants to awaken the Rinnegan, meaning a Sharingan is not required. With Madara having been the first to evolve his Sharingan so much however, he would be the only one able to read so far into the tablet, making him the easiest target.

Here's the thing; Hagoromo's DNA signature would have changed as soon as he awakened Rinnegan for the first time. Notice how he hasn't has his children yet in the Anime. I'm willing to bet he won't impregnate a wife until he's obtained Rinnegan. Once he has obtained Rinnegan, his DNA will be changed to include Rinnegan in its blueprint. By this logic, generations down the line with have the signature of Rinnegan built into their DNA, the reason Madara was able to awaken it.

So there is no way you can say for certain Hagoromo didn't have Sharingan first. Once he awakened Rinnegan, it was built into his DNA but before that, there was no trace of its existence. Reaching Rinnegan is not possible without first wielding a Sharigan and that alone drives home the logic that Hagoromo may indeed have started with a Sharingan himself.

That's not how DNA works. Hagoromo will have the DNA to awaken the Rinnegan before he actually does, just like human babies' eyes are all blue before they change to their regular hue. It doesn't change after getting the eye. If it wasn't in his DNA before then he wouldn't have awakened it in the first place. It also wouldn't make sense to not credit Hagoromo of having the Sharingan, wouldn't it? Not even the Databook hints at Hagoromo having it.

 

[WalksInShadows]

Also , what extremely outlandish things? Name me some examples.

there is the flashback where random Uchiha with MS were running around spamming Izanagi against each other, despite canon keeping its consistency on Madara being the first Uchiha to acquire MS.

Also on a side note: Kishi actually often contradicted himself! Examples include:

Hagoromo being established as the juubi jinchuuriki upon his introduction, but then it was later established that when Hagoromo and Hamura fought the juubi , they used six paths chibaku tensei and sealed her inside the moon (I actually have an explanation in mind for this , but this still could have been better written)

that's not really a contradiction though, seeing as though the original story concerning has been consistently called a legend/myth over the course of P2. Given the nature of how details in legends and myths tend to change over time, i'm of the opinion that Kishimoto had some built-in wiggle room with that.

Minato and Kushina establishing that if Kushina had resealed Kurama back inside of her on the night of Naruto's birth, then Kushina would have just died with the fox inside her. Yet when Naruto had Kurama extracted , sealing yin Kurama inside of him was the way to save him.

now that you mention it, that was pretty contradictory. In all honesty, i never realized that before now.

 

[chaos control]

there is the flashback where random Uchiha with MS were running around spamming Izanagi against each other, despite canon keeping its consistency on Madara being the first Uchiha to acquire MS.


that's not really a contradiction though, seeing as though the original story concerning has been consistently called a legend/myth over the course of P2. Given the nature of how details in legends and myths tend to change over time, i'm of the opinion that Kishimoto had some built-in wiggle room with that.

now that you mention it, that was pretty contradictory. In all honesty, i never realized that before now.

About the izanagi thing , they never actually set a time period for that. Therefore it can't be assumed that those Uchihas were before Madara's time. In fact , the wiki even suggested that those Uchihas lived recently enough to have been killed in the Uchiha massacre (yes I know wiki isn't an official source , but still).

Also , just as you mentioned how Kishi had wiggle room with the story about Hagoromo and the juubi , I'd say he'd have wiggle room with the whole "Madara was the first to get MS" thing too. There are multiple reasons why I say this:

1. First of all , if I recall correctly, the info that Madara was the first to get MS came from a statement made by Itachi to Sasuke. However , Itachi already had a limited knowledge point of view , and he (like many Uchihas throughout the series) was actually misinformed about a number of things. For instance, Itachi was one of the people who believed that Madara took Izuna's eyes by force , but we later learned that to be false. He (like most other people in the series) was also one of the people fooled into thinking that Obito was Madara. He even told Sasuke that Madara was the one behind Kurama's attack (when it was actually Obito).

Furthermore, all the information that Itachi got about Uchiha lore came from either the tablet or word of mouth from clan elders. That tablet however , was modified by Black Zetsu, and we already know how unreliable word of mouth can be when it comes to lore. Long story short , Itachi wasn't actually the most knowledgeable source regarding this history.

2. Furthermore , we later canonically came to learn that Madara really was not the first to get MS. It was Indra. That alone already retcons Madara being the first one.

3. Third of all , let's think about something from a pure logic perspective for a minute. MS is awakened when an Uchiha experiences the trauma of losing a loved one. Now from the time that Indra went to war with Asura, to the time of Madara and Hashirama, centuries passed. Throughout those centuries, the Uchiha and Senju were in a state of endless war. In war , the lives of people's loved ones are lost every moment. Therefore it would only make sense that many Uchihas since the time of Indra and Asura would have lost a number of loved ones. How on earth then , would it even make sense for centuries to pass without a single Uchiha awakening MS until Madara? Are you suggesting that during the centuries between Indra and Madara , not one Uchiha felt the pain of losing a comrade (during an era of endless bloody war)?! That makes no sense whatsoever.

Like you said about stories becoming distorted over time , it's more likely that Madara is the earliest and most famous Uchiha that the elders during Itachi's time could remember. Heck , maybe Madara was the first recorded MS user and any previous ones simply weren't recorded. This would also make sense due to the fact that Madara was the Uchiha clan leader at one time , and he did gain a very infamous reputation because of his acts of attacking the village with Kurama , fighting Hashirama, being turned on by the Uchiha clan , leaving the village , supposedly taking Izuna's eyes , etc...

Do you see then what I mean here? To summarize:
1. We have no proof or grounds to assume that those filler MS users came before Madara. Therefore that filler didn't necessarily contradict the manga.
2. Even if they did come before Madara , Itachi is not the best source of information, and it would make no logical sense for Madara to actually be the first Uchiha with MS. We already canonically know that he wasn't the first in general to have MS. Furthermore, Madara's time was long enough ago for stories about him to become distorted as well. We already saw distortions with the whole Izuna thing , so why not with MS?

 

[Floydical]

Naruto does not have Hagoromo's DNA, so I don't know why you brought him in. Even Black Zetsu himself tried to get both transmigrants to awaken the Rinnegan, meaning a Sharingan is not required. With Madara having been the first to evolve his Sharingan so much however, he would be the only one able to read so far into the tablet, making him the easiest target.

That's not how DNA works. Hagoromo will have the DNA to awaken the Rinnegan before he actually does, just like human babies' eyes are all blue before they change to their regular hue. It doesn't change after getting the eye. If it wasn't in his DNA before then he wouldn't have awakened it in the first place. It also wouldn't make sense to not credit Hagoromo of having the Sharingan, wouldn't it? Not even the Databook hints at Hagoromo having it.

First of all, YES Naruto has Hagoromo's DNA. Both he and Sasuke were given powers by him, and Kaguya admits this herself. Therefore, yes your theory implies Naruto has the capability to unlock Rinnegan which would never happen. Just because Zetsu tried to get both sides of the transmigrant ladder to unlock it does not mean Sharingan is not required. A Senju can still transplant a Sharingan or even EMS. Trust me, Sharingan is a requirement without a doubt. Keep in mind Zetsu could read AND ALTER the tablet at will, which makes the doujutsu requirements to read it invalid... not a proof just something to keep in mind about consistency on Kish's part.

Actually, THAT IS how DNA works in a situation where the mutation has never existed before it. Kakashi was exactly right on both counts, Byakugan predated Sharingan and the Rinnegan is a mutation. The Rinnegan did not exist, as we know it, until it mutated within Hagoromo. Taking your retina example, imagine a mutation where a child's retinas turn completely black. Would that be part of their DNA if it were to happen? No because its a mutation. Hagoromo's DNA was ripe for mutation as he was the product of a human an alien. He had DNA from the Byakugan and Sharirinnegan but the Rinnegan itself was not part of his DNA when born, his mutation created it.

Bottom line? Since we know Sharingan leads to Rinnegan, it only makes sense for Hagoromo to mutate the first one and evolve it to Rinnegan. It makes more sense than it mutating straight to Rinnegan. Think about it, if it was a random mutation then how the heck did Sharingan ever evolve into it in the first place? It makes more sense that Hagoromo had Sharingan first.