Felling the Rain: Kankuro vs Jiraiya

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During his main arc, Jiraiya had the following as his task list:
1) Invade the Hidden Rain, getting a layout
2) Get intel on internal politics
3) Confirm the Akatsuki leadership was there
4) Battle/Survive Konan
5) Battle the SPoP, to figure out their powers
6) Defeat the SPoP/relevant Akatsuki
7) Return alive

We know how far he got with that. How would Kankuro perform at the same task list?

Stipulations:
• For each step, it is required to at least achieve it, better to return intel to the village and best to return alive
• Decent prep and off-field research is assumed

This is pre-4th War Kankuro, before getting the Sasori puppet
 

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Before the Sasori puppet… Hmmm… In the same application wouldn’t he have to survive Hanzo? That’s tuff. Other than that, I think he gets stopped at Konan, truthfully.
 

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Kankuro couldt do much here even with his sasori puppet
Konan was the right hand man of nagato, Kankuro could barely handle one of the average members much less pain's gf who can fight tobi to a standstill
 

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Before the Sasori puppet… Hmmm… In the same application wouldn’t he have to survive Hanzo? That’s tuff. Other than that, I think he gets stopped at Konan, truthfully.
Hanzo is not here, but you could argue that any infiltrator must first overcome the fear of potentially meeting Hanzo in battle . . .



Kankuro couldt do much here even with his sasori puppet
Konan was the right hand man of nagato, Kankuro could barely handle one of the average members much less pain's gf who can fight tobi to a standstill
So you think he only gets to step 3?

Besides that, can you justify the assumption of practical gaps in power between non-leadership Alatsuki as well as Obito being an achievement beyond Sasori on top of linear scaling unaffected by special conditions?


Kankuro doesnt really have infiltration skills. He either gets overwhelmed by fodder shinobi or dies to Konan.
Is it not a fair assumption that all shinobi have basic infiltration skills?

Above that, that the Golden Generation is not full of genius?

Above that, that his experience with the Leaf Invasion is worthless?

Fodder? Seriously?
 

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Is it not a fair assumption that all shinobi have basic infiltration skills?

Above that, that the Golden Generation is not full of genius?

Above that, that his experience with the Leaf Invasion is worthless?

Fodder? Seriously?
Is it not a fair assumption that villages have basic preventative infiltration protocol?

Kankuro was never stated to be a genius and typically the geniuses are genius in areas of combat.

The Leaf Invasion was a two village effort based around the Chuunin Exams being hosted in Leaf which invited all of the villages to participate in. The Rain isnt inviting Kankuro or his village there. Kankuro literally has nothing to replicate what Jiraiya.

And yes fodder. If Kankuro is spotted he will have to fight the fodder of the village or retreat. Fighting a village worth of fodder is a Kage level feat. People like Pain, 3rd Raikage, Minato, Deidara, Kurama, etc can do it. Kankuro isnt on their level of power or destruction.
 
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Besides that, can you justify the assumption of practical gaps in power between non-leadership Alatsuki as well as Obito being an achievement beyond Sasori on top of linear scaling unaffected by special conditions?
I did prove it
Konan was fighting evenly with tobi and would of killed him if not for izanagi

That alone shows the leaders of the akatsuki are above someone like sasori who's not that impressive anyway, only getting one arc to show his abilities and not really archiving much in the little screentime given


plus konan is pein's gf pretty well
you think nagato never trained with her beyond their days under jiraya's teachings


Obito is above sasori for obvious reasons, he negged yagura keeping him as a puppet through genjutsu,enslaved the kyubi through genjutsu and was fast enough to blitz onoki's particle style and save sasuke, Danzo called his power unlimited at a certain point
Tobi toyed with the entirety of konoha, he was playing whack a mole with characters like naruto and shino, Lol at sasori ever doing anything mentioned above like he fought sakura and lost, struggled with darui and sai in a war arc and ended up getting sealed


Tobi is like million times stronger, Kyubi naruto legit slapped sakura away, Same sakura who killed sasori
Tobi would beat sasori by pimp slapping him without even moving as that's how characters like orochimaru handle them, If you wanna dig into orochimaru too

He legit thought kabuto could handle sasori and he has seen the third kazekage puppet in action so yea like 100 percent, Tobi could utterlly body sasori like that's not even a question
 

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Is it not a fair assumption that villages have basic preventative infiltration protocol?

Kankuro was never stated to be a genius and typically the geniuses are genius in areas of combat.

The Leaf Invasion was a two village effort based around the Chuunin Exams being hosted in Leaf which invited all of the villages to participate in. The Rain isnt inviting Kankuro or his village there. Kankuro literally has nothing to replicate what Jiraiya.

And yes fodder. If Kankuro is spotted he will have to fight the fodder of the village or retreat. Fighting a village worth of fodder is a Kage level feat. People like Pain, 3rd Raikage, Minato, Deidara, Kurama, etc can do it. Kankuro isnt on their level of power or destruction.
Is it not a fair assumption that an active player beats a passive system?

Kankuro would know that better than us both and make SPECIAL PREPARATION FOR A TOP LEVEL MISSION, as per OP.

More than assumptions, in the case of the Rain we know exactly what system they have - Sensing Rain and strict border regulations. Known factors allow for precise counter-measures to be taken. Do you think Kankuro could not find a way around these two things?


Being part of the Leaf Invasion, to the point of keeping his moves secret, is an implication of genius, especially in a kid. Being able to track and catch Sasori and Deidara is a mark of genius. Rising to Jonin rank as a teenager is a mark of genius. Being made World Wide Army troop leader is a mark of genius. Where do you get the idea that Kankuro is average, even among the Golden Gen? Is it an assumption of everything having to be stated?

Team Gai is specifically combat oriented and Team Kakashi are the main characters, so they get a pass. In Team Kurenai, Hinata has village sized Byakugan Vision (and was noted to be specifically weak in combat), Kiba tricked Sakon and Ukon while mastering new transformations, on top of his animal-level sense of smell while Shino is a deductionist left out of prominent battles because he would dominate them when narrative required the kids to struggle a bit. On Team Asuma, Shika is the intellectual genius, Ino innovated new techniques with the Mind Transfer and Choji mastered Calorie Control as a teenager. Outside the Leaf, the Sand Siblings have a Gaara whose willpower held back Shukaku, Temari who nearly matched Shika in wits and Kankuro who mastered puppet tactics. And of course, all three were part of a village invasion without being caught, as kids! And if you consider them as part of the GG, then you have Haku mastering hereditary powers without proper training in them, Kimimaro being a battle genius surpassing his clan, the Sound Gate Guardians managing the Curse Marks, Chojuro mastering the energy blade and Sai being a straight assassin of Jonin as a teenager.

They are all capable in battle, but the idea that they are not genius in other fields seems off to me.

Focussing on him specifically, Kankuro gave nothing away with being part of the invasion, was trusted with looking after Gaara along with Temari, proved actively intelligent in his battle with Shino, proved tactically wise in forfeiting his fight to keep his style secret, proved well rounded enough to rise to prominent positions in the Sand and even by Boruto is very capable in stealth and secrecy as proven by his alien puppet fight and escape. If anything, he actually has a theme of being clever and tactical, rounded off by a tactics-oriented fighting style.


Based around the Chunin? That works in favour of Kankuro, who was in the prominent trio.

Your opening sentence addresses the invitation point. Villages know and the Leaf was always on alert with the threat of Orochimaru and the prominence of Naruto and Sasuke on display. If anything . . .

No experience? No fighting style? No intelligence? Of all the GG, he is the most set up for it.


If he is caught . . . Besides that, does he not have a track record of tricking opponents about his physical location IN COMBAT? HIS ENTIRE FIGHTING STYLE IS BUILT ON DECEPTION AND TACTICS. You are also equating prepared armies with a village at normal capacity. Besides that, you have to prove the level of kage to be a minimal requirement. Otherwise, your point only shows kage being capable, not Jonin being incapable.
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Konan was fighting evenly with tobi
would of killed him if not for Izanagi
not that impressive anyway, only getting one arc to show his abilities
you think nagato never trained with her beyond their days under jiraya's teachings
ended up getting sealed
Same sakura who killed sasori
Let us assume for a moment that your near-perfect ability to recall and reference events as they happened in the story does not stand in stark contrast with the partiallity with which you often recall them.

That would make it possible that many of your points are not dishonest but rather misunderstood on my part. In which case, debating our conclusions is an exercise of futility if we just see things differently.

So before we can get on to the bigger points, you should explain what you mean by all these statements I have quoted, since you use them as a foundation for your conclusions.

For example, the part where Sakura killed Sasori or Sasori got sealed. When did such happen? What makes Sakura the same? How does getting sealed prove Sasori weak? How does Sasori having certain failures relate to Obito? Was Sakura trying to kill Naruto? And so on
 
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Is it not a fair assumption that an active player beats a passive system?

Kankuro would know that better than us both and make SPECIAL PREPARATION FOR A TOP LEVEL MISSION, as per OP.

More than assumptions, in the case of the Rain we know exactly what system they have - Sensing Rain and strict border regulations. Known factors allow for precise counter-measures to be taken. Do you think Kankuro could not find a way around these two things?


Being part of the Leaf Invasion, to the point of keeping his moves secret, is an implication of genius, especially in a kid. Being able to track and catch Sasori and Deidara is a mark of genius. Rising to Jonin rank as a teenager is a mark of genius. Being made World Wide Army troop leader is a mark of genius. Where do you get the idea that Kankuro is average, even among the Golden Gen? Is it an assumption of everything having to be stated?

Team Gai is specifically combat oriented and Team Kakashi are the main characters, so they get a pass. In Team Kurenai, Hinata has village sized Byakugan Vision (and was noted to be specifically weak in combat), Kiba tricked Sakon and Ukon while mastering new transformations, on top of his animal-level sense of smell while Shino is a deductionist left out of prominent battles because he would dominate them when narrative required the kids to struggle a bit. On Team Asuma, Shika is the intellectual genius, Ino innovated new techniques with the Mind Transfer and Choji mastered Calorie Control as a teenager. Outside the Leaf, the Sand Siblings have a Gaara whose willpower held back Shukaku, Temari who nearly matched Shika in wits and Kankuro who mastered puppet tactics. And of course, all three were part of a village invasion without being caught, as kids! And if you consider them as part of the GG, then you have Haku mastering hereditary powers without proper training in them, Kimimaro being a battle genius surpassing his clan, the Sound Gate Guardians managing the Curse Marks, Chojuro mastering the energy blade and Sai being a straight assassin of Jonin as a teenager.

They are all capable in battle, but the idea that they are not genius in other fields seems off to me.

Focussing on him specifically, Kankuro gave nothing away with being part of the invasion, was trusted with looking after Gaara along with Temari, proved actively intelligent in his battle with Shino, proved tactically wise in forfeiting his fight to keep his style secret, proved well rounded enough to rise to prominent positions in the Sand and even by Boruto is very capable in stealth and secrecy as proven by his alien puppet fight and escape. If anything, he actually has a theme of being clever and tactical, rounded off by a tactics-oriented fighting style.


Based around the Chunin? That works in favour of Kankuro, who was in the prominent trio.

Your opening sentence addresses the invitation point. Villages know and the Leaf was always on alert with the threat of Orochimaru and the prominence of Naruto and Sasuke on display. If anything . . .

No experience? No fighting style? No intelligence? Of all the GG, he is the most set up for it.


If he is caught . . . Besides that, does he not have a track record of tricking opponents about his physical location IN COMBAT? HIS ENTIRE FIGHTING STYLE IS BUILT ON DECEPTION AND TACTICS. You are also equating prepared armies with a village at normal capacity. Besides that, you have to prove the level of kage to be a minimal requirement. Otherwise, your point only shows kage being capable, not Jonin being incapable.
No.

What feats does Kankuro have showing he can gather intel on the rain village's infiltration defenses and execute them by himself? The ninja most skilled with infiltration and espionage are Anbu ninja. This is a safe assumption that people like Kakashi or Itachi may be able to infiltrate, and even then Hiruzen made special changes to the villages barrier to allow Itachi in, Kankuro simply doesnt have feats to support that.

No. What feats does Kankuro have to suggest he can? What puppet jutsu does he know that can negate rain sensing.

Keeping his moves secret isnt a genius tactic. He caught an extremely nerfed Sasori without access to his puppets and deidara would wasn't fighting to his full ability due to his personality/hang up about his art. One suicide bomb and kankuro is dead. Kankuro with a sasori puppet would have died against the Deidara that fought Gaara and Sasori. I never said Kankuro was average. I said he wasnt Kage level or an infiltrator type of ninja. Pretty much all of the golden genin fail this mission besides Naruto and Sasuke.

Im not really sure why you are bringing up a bunch of genin and jonin who died, beat, or stalemated to people weaker than pain and konan and couldnt do much of anything to stop Nagato from soloing their village. Kankuro's weak ass puppets arent hurting killing Pain or Konan. And Kankuro's feats with his puppets are worse than Sasori. He couldnt even beat Sasori. He had to wait until Sakura and Chiyo jesus no jutsu'd him into letting himself get killed.

Every ninja has a track record of tricking their opponent with about their physical location. Its called substitution jutsu. And once again his deception was never shown to be able to deceive an entire village or kage level opponent.

The kage level minimum requirement is shown by the manga. When kankuro can replicate Pain, Minato, Kurama, Madara, Obito, Deidara, or the 3rd raikage then let me know. Who are you trying to convince, that Kankuro can solo an entire village?

This would have been a better topic if it was an Anbu Team of Itachi, Kakashi, Yamato, and Sai. These are all Anbu members who can be assumed to have high infiltration and espionage skills. They could possibly sneak in and out. Maybe beat Konan and maybe beat pain. Thats a big maybe though. Especially if this is Anbu Kakashi and Itachi who dont have their Mangekyo Sharingans.
 

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A bold and authoritative start. Let us see how the rest of your post goes . . .

Before i get to that . . .
Is it not a fair assumption that an active player beats a passive system?
This is the question you are replying to.

Is it not a fair assumption that all shinobi have basic infiltration skills?
Is it not a fair assumption that villages have basic preventative infiltration protocol?
That question itself was a continuation of this line of exchanges.

Considering that so far, granting you the benefit of contextual common sense doubt, we have agreed on the direction of the questions, what is so different about this one that you would disagree? Do mind that this is another benefit being granted seeing as in debate authoritative declarations are unfitting as disagreement is the call to cause. By rights, you are in the wrong simply with the nature of your reply.

So by rights, it is only fair that you follow with the manner of exchange to explain why you do not accept the proposal of my question. Mind, again, that I could simply cut this line by proving the proposal absolutely correct . . .

On to the next part . . .


Kankuro would know that better than us both and make SPECIAL PREPARATION FOR A TOP LEVEL MISSION, as per OP.
What feats does Kankuro have showing he can gather intel on the rain village's infiltration defenses and execute them by himself?
Firstly, a lack of showings for Kankuro would not be sufficient to conclude a lack of ability.

This is not only general rules reasoning, but in this context we are speaking generally (villages, shinobi . . . ) and with regards to a drawn series where there exist an extremely limited amount of drawings to cover all scenarios. You have roughly 700 chapters, containing roughly 30 pages, each with roughly 5 panels, for an estimated 1 million little pictures. Those are a lot, until one adds on that the story covers tens of countries, with thousands of inhabitants, including tens of core characters whose stories are covered in depth and influence the plot, with tens of influential abiotic elements carrying similar power over a time period of thousands of years. Going by averages and only counting for the characters, each would only get ten or so chapters to cover their entire life and influence thereof. Then adding on that there are tiers of character importance . . . Kankuro is not the main character, nor directly connected to them, nor major issues such as the aliens. Is he even a third tier character?

So before we even get to it directly, all major context is set against the idea surrounding your question.

Then to get to it . . .
his experience with the Leaf Invasion is worthless
Being part of the Leaf Invasion, to the point of keeping his moves secret, is an implication of genius, especially in a kid. Being able to track and catch Sasori and Deidara is a mark of genius. Rising to Jonin rank as a teenager is a mark of genius. Being made World Wide Army troop leader is a mark of genius
Kankuro who mastered puppet
Focussing on him specifically, Kankuro gave nothing away with being part of the invasion, was trusted with looking after Gaara along with Temari, proved actively intelligent in his battle with Shino, proved tactically wise in forfeiting his fight to keep his style secret, proved well rounded enough to rise to prominent positions in the Sand and even by Boruto is very capable in stealth and secrecy as proven by his alien puppet fight and escape
Oh my! It seems I already have!

And not only with achievements, but the character himself
HIS ENTIRE FIGHTING STYLE IS BUILT ON DECEPTION AND TACTICS
And even you yourself have!
The Leaf Invasion was a two village effort based around the Chuunin Exams being hosted in Leaf
Based around the Chunin? That works in favour of Kankuro, who was in the prominent trio.

And I see you did this one more than once, so I will call them all out now.
Pretty much all of the golden genin fail this mission besides Naruto and Sasuke.
What feats does Kankuro have to suggest he can?
Every ninja has a track record of tricking their opponent with about their physical location
These are all Anbu members who can be assumed to have high infiltration and espionage skills
Now, tis one thing to disagree on points and another (but still workable) to struggle to properly explain them (points and disagreements, language is imperfect), but to not even account for those already made crosses a line in respect and exchange itself.

Besides that, the premise of your question is that without "feats", Kankuro has nothing . . .
Kankuro literally has nothing to replicate what Jiraiya.
I was giving you the benefit of common sense doubt, but when you speak as though a series with limited space for showcasing characters would put everything in their showings, you lose that benefit. Kankuro is the member of a genius generation that is most often shown playing an active role in espionage. It is common sense that when a character grows, the skills they train in or specialise in - again, most espionage linked character in his group - grow with them. As for what growth he has had, he was chosen to ead a tactical unit of the world wide army during the most important war in all history, along with his GG peers taking out indidividual Akatsuki (Choji vs Kakuzu), protecting KCM Naruto (Neji), fighting HashiMadara (Lee), literally saving the world from Obito (Hinata and Ino) and again literally saving thousands (Sakura). Not forgetting Gaara, who was fighting several legendary Kage, along with Temari.

So your question is wrong in that it has already been answered and in its premise. And besides the faulty premise the meaning of your question is answered to show that Kankuro has plenty.



The ninja most skilled with infiltration and espionage are Anbu ninja. This is a safe assumption that people like Kakashi or Itachi may be able to infiltrate
Another grand declaration.

See, when you opened with a simple, "No", you moved away from common sense and common understanding. You then moved into attempting hyper-technicality and strict process. So by your own standard, you cannot simply make declarations, especially in a debating context. You are automatically wrong on every statement you make that does not carry proof for it. And mind that to even go this far is a benefit I am granting in choosing to see if there is any ground on which we can proceed (you rejected my question because it was not a claim with proof) instead of hanging everything up on actual technicalities (you making of declarations is not contextual progress).


To get to the reply, there is an abvious fault in saying that one person possessing a skill equates to others lacking it, which you recognize by adding relativity/scale and nuance with your usage of the word "most". However, that word says that others can be decently skilled even if less than the "most" you make reference to. So within your question, your point is already meaningless.

Secondly, you are equating training with exclusive possession of skill. That is faulty because it leads to the question of who trained the first person. As you did with "feats", but now also using it as a premise for another point. Me having to point out that talent, experience and basic interest can also lead to skill being attained makes it clear that giving you the benefit of reasoning doubt was a mistake.

Thirdly, even if your premise was workable, I have ALREADY referenced Kankuro being part of a mission to inflitrate. Your lack of connecting this to training, which is the most logical way to connect AnBu rank with espionage skills, again shows it was a mistake to give you the benefit of logical doubt.

Fourthly, where do you get this idea anyway? AnBu were shown and explained as a special missions division of shinobi, with different villages having different purposes to them. Of all the divisions, none were made famous who even specifically focus on infiltration. They were Kage guards and shinobi hunters usually. If anything, espionage missions were often shown being given to normal shinobi, from the Leaf Invasion to the 4th War stake out and even this very thread! All those were the hghest level missions - war - and all went to normal shinobi. So even by evidence you are incorrect.

Fifthly, it is odd that you proceed to the hyper-technical style but fail to note that Kankuro belongs to a higher level division (Five Great Nations) than his target (Rain) and so should be of an overall higher level by rule of averages.

Sixthly, how would your idea even work in the first place. Unless UnBu is some separte species that one is born into, what of shinobi before they join it? Are you saying that they suddenly unlock never-before-present infiltration skills upon joining or being trained? Or perhaps that AnBu does special training that creates these skills in shinobi? Oh wait, you have already expressed agreement to all shinobi being trained in espionage . . . So what then? Even if you were pushing that point, that would imply AnBu leaders can choose any random person and then train them. Is that what you are saying? That Kakashi, Itachi and the like did not have any special talent that got them scouted? And what of this special training anyway? Why do other shinobi or divisions not desire it? Your idea forces you to create a whole different world . . .

I could go on, but mind you, yet again, that I did not hinge this point on the technicality of your declarations.

Well, how else to put it? Bruh, even Jman in this very thread ain't Anbu, what you trippin on? Fvkc outta here with that shi!



and even then Hiruzen made special changes to the villages barrier to allow Itachi in, Kankuro simply doesnt have feats to support that.
This suggests that no other shinobi have or can infiltrate the Leaf without special access, since not only have you used that special access point with Kankuro but you are using it for Itachi who may be of the best ever at espionage.

You are also equating the Leaf Village, the strongest and most widely talented of the FIVE GREAT NATIONS to the Rain, which is not on their level. To miss this again, when that,fact was closely tied to the entire arc this thread is based on, shows a lack of understanding.

Amd back to your first suggestion, you are also failing to account for basic potential. Do you think the Leaf accounts for literally every little tourist and animal and stone that crosses their barrier? Shinobi CLANS exist that use animals, insects, psychological manipulation of normal people, ranged attacks, PUPPETS, and so on. And the last one is in this very thread. Again, a massive lack of reasoning ability.

And again, I could have hinged this on technicalities regarding your declarations and "feats" limitation.



More than assumptions, in the case of the Rain we know exactly what system they have - Sensing Rain and strict border regulations. Known factors allow for precise counter-measures to be taken. Do you think Kankuro could not find a way around these two things?
No. What feats does Kankuro have to suggest he can? What puppet jutsu does he know that can negate rain sensing
Putting aside the "feats" thing . . .

Firstly, more grand declarations. If it was merely an expression of what you think, as per my question, it would be perfectly fine. But in the context of disagreement and you suddenly being hyper-technical, it must follow with justification. Your standards . . .

Secondly, you are back to the limitations logic, which is a declarative stance in itself - a character must fulfill specific conditions or they fail. It need not be a puppet technique, unless you think either that is the only way or Kankuro has no other ability, quite literally. Simple timing, deception, special transportation or somesuch can all do it if applied at a good enough level. I suppose I can see your thinking since you rejected the active player vs passive system notion. So do you think Kankuro is strictly encapable of just standing at distance, capturing some loser and finding a way to walk in? Pray tell then, how did Jiraiya get in? Are you suggesting he has "puppet jutsu"?

To answer your question, the rain detects targets, not who or what they are. Those targets are biotic, unless you think Nagato detects every stone and dust and even insects. Kankuro has a fake body he uses and has used on panel to trick active shinobi confronting him! He also could easily fashion a snorkel to swim in seeing as he specialises in what are strong, non-elemental constructs with his strings. He could also kill a loser and puppet himself as a backpack through them. And so on. Mind you, this reply is a bit of me answering my own thread!

And even before that, you are limiting options to him negating the rain. Why not work around it? Or wait for it to stop? Is it on eternally? Or use someone else who can limit/negate it? Your lack of imagination is not my responsibility! And of course, a lack of reasons is not proof of a lack of options.



Being part of the Leaf Invasion, to the point of keeping his moves secret, is an implication of genius, especially in a kid. Being able to track and catch Sasori and Deidara is a mark of genius. Rising to Jonin rank as a teenager is a mark of genius. Being made World Wide Army troop leader is a mark of genius. Where do you get the idea that Kankuro is average, even among the Golden Gen? Is it an assumption of everything having to be stated?
Keeping his moves secret isnt a genius tactic. He caught an extremely nerfed Sasori without access to his puppets and deidara would wasn't fighting to his full ability due to his personality/hang up about his art. One suicide bomb and kankuro is dead. Kankuro with a sasori puppet would have died against the Deidara that fought Gaara and Sasori. I never said Kankuro was average. I said he wasnt Kage level or an infiltrator type of ninja. Pretty much all of the golden genin fail this mission besides Naruto and Sasuke.
More grand decralations


Keeping his moves secret isnt a genius tactic
tell then, why the likes of Obito go so far to do so? If it is not genius that implies it is not meaningful, in the CONTEXT of active steps of this sort. Pray tell, how Konan died? Pray tell, why everyone did not laugh at him for using wasteful moves and losing a very important match for his village? You do remember that the Chunin Examinations have economic value, do you not? Keeping moves secret has been the pivotal aspect of story changing fights since the very beginning. Every Obito fight, Kidomaru vs Neji, the entire fighting style of Shikamaru, why almost every high level character (in context, of course) has high intelligence and so on. So unless you would render this conversation meaningless by changing the very definition of 'genius', pray tell . . .


He caught an extremely nerfed Sasori without access to his puppets a
Firstly, prove Sasori did not have his puppets? Secondly, wrong. He had Hiruko, was not in a restricted battle scenario/environment and keeps his puppet in a scroll. Thirdly, even if Sasori did not have his puppets . . .
Being able to track and catch Sasori
How does Sasori being limited in battle ability connect to being limited in escape ability? Does carrying slightly less weight in puppets work against him now? Or are you saying that his escape abilities (in context of avoiding clashes) work through his puppet stash?


deidara would wasn't fighting to his full ability due to his personality/hang up about his art
Firstly, prove Deidara was not only "hung up" but that this hang up affects his escape ability. Secondly, wrong. He had his bird . . . Flight! Thirdly, even if he was restricted in fighting ability . . .
Being able to track and catch Deidara
And considering he had flight, that is all the more impressive. So the premise of your claim is wrong, your claim itself is wrong, and the meaning of your claim is irrelevant to context.


One suicide bomb and kankuro is dead. Kankuro with a sasori puppet would have died against the Deidara that fought Gaara and Sasori
Kankuro dying to Akatsuki is irrelevant. We are talking about infiltration and general genius.

And even besides that, Kankuro forcing a suicide bomb would be a massive achievement from him, for me.

Back to our context . . .
Kankuro was never stated to be a genius and typically the geniuses are genius in areas of combat
You are the one who pushed the idea of genius in combat, so even if your point worked it would work against you. Now you are showing multiples levels of disconnect.


I never said Kankuro was average.
Kankuro doesnt really have infiltration skills
He either gets overwhelmed by fodder shinobi
basic preventative infiltration protocol?
Kankuro was never stated to be a genius
The Rain isnt inviting Kankuro or his village there
Kankuro literally has nothing to replicate what Jiraiya.
What feats
Kankuro simply doesnt have feats
isnt a genius
bunch of genin and jonin who died, beat, or stalemated to people weaker than pain and konan and couldnt do much of anything to stop Nagato from soloing their village
Kankuro's weak ass puppets
Every ninja has a track record of tricking their opponent with about their physical location
You certainly worked with the notion, even in this post I am replying to . . .

You are also actively opposing me not only in general, but on sub-points hyping up Kankuro.

Now unless you would rewrite definitions, discard context and common sense, average is the commonly understood counterpart to genius.

Again, it seems the benefit of the doubt was poorly given.


said he wasnt Kage level or an infiltrator type of ninja.
Golden Generation
his experience with the Leaf Invasion
Being part of the Leaf Invasion, to the point of keeping his moves secret, is an implication of genius, especially in a kid. Being able to track and catch Sasori and Deidara is a mark of genius. Rising to Jonin rank as a teenager is a mark of genius. Being made World Wide Army troop leader is a mark of genius.
Kankuro who mastered puppet tactics
And of course, all three were part of a village invasion without being caught, as kids!
They are all capable in battle, but the idea that they are not genius in other fields seems off to me.
Focussing on him specifically, Kankuro gave nothing away with being part of the invasion, was trusted with looking after Gaara along with Temari, proved actively intelligent in his battle with Shino, proved tactically wise in forfeiting his fight to keep his style secret, proved well rounded enough to rise to prominent positions in the Sand and even by Boruto is very capable in stealth and secrecy as proven by his alien puppet fight and escape. If anything, he actually has a theme of being clever and tactical, rounded off by a tactics-oriented fighting style
he actually has a theme of being clever and tactical, rounded off by a tactics-oriented fighting style.
Based around the Chunin? That works in favour of Kankuro, who was in the prominent trio.
Of all the GG, he is the most set up for it.
HIS ENTIRE FIGHTING STYLE IS BUILT ON DECEPTION AND TACTICS.
And I have already addressed that point.

Unless . . . You are ONLY defending the technical point of what you said? In that case, you have actually applied technicalities correctly!


Pretty much all of the golden genin fail this mission besides Naruto and Sasuke
I would say that Team Kurenai, Neji, Lee (no composite energy flow), Gaara, Sakura, Ino, Haku and Suigetsu would EASILY achieve infiltration part. Probably lose any fight, but definitely infiltrate.



typically the geniuses are genius in areas of combat.
Team Gai is specifically combat oriented and Team Kakashi are the main characters, so they get a pass. In Team Kurenai, Hinata has village sized Byakugan Vision (and was noted to be specifically weak in combat), Kiba tricked Sakon and Ukon while mastering new transformations, on top of his animal-level sense of smell while Shino is a deductionist left out of prominent battles because he would dominate them when narrative required the kids to struggle a bit. On Team Asuma, Shika is the intellectual genius, Ino innovated new techniques with the Mind Transfer and Choji mastered Calorie Control as a teenager. Outside the Leaf, the Sand Siblings have a Gaara whose willpower held back Shukaku, Temari who nearly matched Shika in wits and Kankuro who mastered puppet tactics. And of course, all three were part of a village invasion without being caught, as kids! And if you consider them as part of the GG, then you have Haku mastering hereditary powers without proper training in them, Kimimaro being a battle genius surpassing his clan, the Sound Gate Guardians managing the Curse Marks, Chojuro mastering the energy blade and Sai being a straight assassin of Jonin as a teenager.
Im not really sure why you are bringing up a bunch of genin and jonin who died, beat, or stalemated to people weaker than pain and konan and couldnt do much of anything to stop Nagato from soloing their village. Kankuro's weak ass puppets arent hurting killing Pain or Konan
It is in the very part you are replying to! Again, you show lack of comprehension, this time directly!

See, you are the one who brought up combat restriction of genius (you seem to be restricting many things, so at least you are consistent). I then said . . . Outside of combat. See here . . .
They are all capable in battle, but the idea that they are not genius in other fields seems off to me.
So when you use combat based reasoning to hype down the group, you are completely off . . . Yet again.

Besides that, even within your point you are incorrect. The story has context etc. The slug told Team Gai not to help Naruto, while knowing the power of the Eight Gates, the Byakugan and summoning, when they have those exact powers at a level to fight HashiMadara! So clearly things that happened or did not in general is not enough reason to say it cannot. Again I point out this, but at least you are consistent. That is good thing, genuinely.

On the last part, those puppets PHYSICALLY captured CM lvl 2 fighters, and Sasori and Deidara! While I agree they would fail on Konan, they are definitely not weak!


Focussing on him specifically, Kankuro gave nothing away with being part of the invasion, was trusted with looking after Gaara along with Temari, proved actively intelligent in his battle with Shino, proved tactically wise in forfeiting his fight to keep his style secret, proved well rounded enough to rise to prominent positions in the Sand and even by Boruto is very capable in stealth and secrecy as proven by his alien puppet fight and escape. If anything, he actually has a theme of being clever and tactical, rounded off by a tactics-oriented fighting style
Kankuro's weak ass puppets arent hurting killing Pain or Konan. And Kankuro's feats with his puppets are worse than Sasori. He couldnt even beat Sasori. He had to wait until Sakura and Chiyo jesus no jutsu'd him into letting himself get killed
Again, context is off

Again, one character being better than another does not mean the latter has no ability at all.

And what have you, but that the very part you refer to makes a note of the importance of knowing your opponent and their specific attacks! You are off on many levels.


If he is caught . . . Besides that, does he not have a track record of tricking opponents about his physical location IN COMBAT? HIS ENTIRE FIGHTING STYLE IS BUILT ON DECEPTION AND TACTICS
Every ninja has a track record of tricking their opponent with about their physical location. Its called substitution jutsu
Again, you show lack of common sense.

Me kicking a ball in the street does not give me a "track record" anywhere close to Jesse Lingard or Leo Messi! Do you seriously fail to grasp this?

After that, you equate a single move that barely requires composite energy to an entire fightng style.

If anything your direction gives that benefit to all shinobi, so if Kankuro specifically works through deception it means he is doing that on top of that move, putting him above equivalent shinobi in that specific field. Again, a lack of contextual understanding.

Amd even before that, the substitution is more about (per usage) avoiding a strike than deception of location. It is the clone and feints that focus more on deception.

And those are used only if needed, while Kankuro sets out to deceive about his location from the very beginning! Hence "FIGHTING STYLE".

You started out with authoritative declarations and heavy technicality, now you add smug arrogance to the mix.


And once again his deception was never shown to be able to deceive an entire village or kage level opponent.
And now you dare to say "once again"? in this very post!

Does it have to deceive entire village?
You are also equating prepared armies with a village at normal capacity
Or even a single Kage level?
) Invade the Hidden Rain, getting a layout
2) Get intel on internal politics
3) Confirm the Akatsuki leadership was there
For each step, it is required to at least achieve it, better to return intel to the village and best to return alive
Decent prep and off-field research is
. . . Now I must make reference to OP
Kankuro would know that better than us both and make SPECIAL PREPARATION FOR A TOP LEVEL MISSION, as per OP.
"ONCE AGAIN" . . .

Anyway, there are three whole steps he could complete before having to fight even a scrub!

And even . . .
If Kankuro is spotted he will have to fight the fodder of the village or retreat.
If he is caught . . .
our context, which you acknowledge ("if . . . spotted) is only concerned with the first step.


Besides that, you have to prove the level of kage to be a minimal requirement. Otherwise, your point only shows kage being capable, not Jonin being incapable.
The kage level minimum requirement is shown by the manga. When kankuro can replicate Pain, Minato, Kurama, Madara, Obito, Deidara, or the 3rd raikage then let me know. Who are you trying to convince, that Kankuro can solo an entire village?
Do you not understand what "prove" means, o authoritative one?

You make reference to the part of the story that shows this, because I have already addressed that . . .
Otherwise, your point only shows kage being capable, not Jonin being incapable.

Comically, your false equivalence puts Zabuza at the level of the SPoP.

Not only Zabuza, but that Aburame guy. Obito could infiltrate all 5 GV in ten minutes flat, yes? So by your logic he can take on the whole SA at once and succeed no sweat! You did not renege when I point out difference between standing village and prepared army, but doubled down with this reply! So since Torune took an arm from Obito under poor circumstances (to be fair to you, you showed you do not consider knowledge a strong advantage to keep), that means Torune is a challenge to Obito. So Torune could achieve an arm worth of beating SA no sweat, which would equate to beating SA with some sweat! Wow, Torune is powerful!

Nonetheless, your final question is fair. No, as you may have done, I was merely challenging the technicality of a Kage level requirement to fighting an army.

And of the people you listed, only SPoP and the 3rd RK have fought a village or army directly. Hmm, does that count as a declaration?



This would have been a better topic if it was an Anbu Team of Itachi, Kakashi, Yamato, and Sai. These are all Anbu members who can be assumed to have high infiltration and espionage skills. They could possibly sneak in and out. Maybe beat Konan and maybe beat pain. Thats a big maybe though. Especially if this is Anbu Kakashi and Itachi who dont have their Mangekyo Sharingans
More complex, at least.

Some say Itachi (strongest there) and others say Kakashi (weakest there) could handle the mission alone . . . Much splintering of discussion! I prefer cleaner discussion, where almost every point connects to others.

Nonetheless, we can discuss it, maybe in another thread.

But before moving moving ahead . . .

Rising to Jonin rank as a teenager is a mark of genius. Being made World Wide Army troop leader is a mark of genius
Based around the Chunin? That works in favour of Kankuro, who was in the prominent trio.
Your opening sentence addresses the invitation point. Villages know and the Leaf was always on alert with the threat of Orochimaru and the prominence of Naruto and Sasuke on display. If anything . . .
No experience? No fighting style? No intelligence? Of all the GG, he is the most set up for it.
You are also equating prepared armies with a village at normal capacity.
I see no reply to or acknowledgement of the above.

If we are putting aside common understanding and being strict, please address them. Did I miss the reply?
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I was going along with and on the normal/causal ezchange, but I certainly do not mind getting technical. In some context it is actually a lower level of exchange, but in others it is a higher level of exchange.

Irrespective, one thing I certainly do not take kindly to is having to play a game of "Quote Thyself". If I have to explain why, I am not bothering!
 
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