[Discussion] [Fear] Why I have become Disillusioned with the Naruto Series

[FearxDeath]

Hey Weak here, some people have asked me why I dont post theories as often and I can recall the exact moment when I really stopped making theories. And the reason is because I have become disappointed with the Manga in total... Let me explain why.

Before you bash me, try to at least understand what I am trying to say.

Manga's​

Spoiler

I doubt anyone here ONLY reads Naruto. You probably read like other manga's and I do as well, but ive always held Naruto to a higher standard. To me it exemplified what Manga's should be, the reason I liked Naruto so much is because it didn't subscribe to the same routine that other manga's followed. It was similar but it had standards.

The Routine​

Spoiler

You all know the routine:

1) Hero meets Bad Guy
2) Bad Guy is way stronger than Hero
3) Hero Resolves to get stronger to beat Bad Guy
4) Hero Gets Stronger
5) Hero beats Bad Guy

Rinse.Repeat

The problem arises after a new bad guy is introduced in place of the old bad guy. Said new bad guy must be stronger than the old bad guy or else it wouldnt be a problem. So you have this progression where the hero continues to get stronger as he continues to defeat more bad guys, this tends to get out of control if a series drags out for too long. For example:

Bleach

Anyone who follows Bleach already knows how this works. its stupid at times, Let me give you a break down.

Aizen Arc = Long story short a Bad Guy named Aizen becomes a God. He then fights every captain in the Soul Society AT THE SAME TIME and wins easily. He fights Ichigo and beats him then, alls a sudden Ichigo's sword tells him that he has a secret power for Ichigo at the cost of losing his powers after using it, he gives the power to Ichigo, Ichigo becomes a god among gods that makes Aizen look like trash. Out of nowhere, where did this power come from? Why dont other swords give other people this power? For instance those captains that lost to Aizen? Who knows.

1000 War Arc = So there is this head Captian of the Soul Society, this guy is SO STRONG that even God Mode Aizen didnt want to fight him in a fair fight, This guy holds the power of the sun in his sword, if he awakens his power for too long ALL the water in the city will evaporate, attacks dont even reach him because they burns before they reach him, he can bring people that he kills back to life as flaming zombies, INSANELY STRONG RIGHT? Yah well, He dies within 2 Manga pages of meeting the new bad guy... New Bad Guy literally points a finger at him, shoots a laser, and kills him. And now after a few days of "training" with some captains Ichigo and his friends are going to beat this guy? HOW!

Dragon Ball Z​

I used to love this show too but things just got out of hand towards the end of the Cell Saga.... When New Bad Guys could destroy entire planets on a whim... I mean Freeza could destroy a planet with one finger, Super Saiyan Goku spanked Freeza, and Super Saiyan Goku was Spanked by Majin Buu, Who was Spanked by Super Saiyn TWO Vegeta, Who then gets spanked by Andriods, and the hits go on... When being able to destroy a planet is no longer something that is impressive then I just have to take my ball and go home.. I dont want to play anymore.


In these series a standard of power is set, and then it is promptly broken and tossed asunder with the introduction of bag guy 2.0. Yesterdays GOD is today's fodder. There is no real way to gauge true strength other than the fact that the manga is telling you that this guy is suppose to be strong. Its almost like being one of those insanely rich people who dont even know how much money they have anymore. Because at a point it all becomes relative, if I asked bill gates how much money he had, he would tell me alot, and I would just have to accept that. If another guy came by saying he had more money than Bill Gates. I wouldnt be able to relate, I could barely grasp how much money bill gates has and now im suppose to be impressed that this guy has more? At a certain point it all becomes relative.

Naruto​

Spoiler

Naruto was different... From the very beginning of the Anime a few rules are established. Standards of powers were set and then kept throughout most of the manga. It was beautiful:

1) From the start you are told that Hokage are the leaders of the Village and that Hiruzen is the strongest of the Kage. So from the start you have in your head that this guy must be some kind of Bad ass. So from this point on everyone elses power is gauged in accordance to his power, Kage level. If this person reaches Kage level then they too must be pretty strong.

2) From the start you know that the Tailed Beasts are really strong, stronger than a single Kage but perhaps not as strong as 2 or 3 Kage. And Naruto has one inside of him HOLY CRAP! he will probably get stronger as he master his inner power and we should expect him to reach if not exceed Kage level over time.

3) Sasuke is the last of the Uchiha, we know that his eyes evolves over time, we didnt know how far it goes but as it evolves he will get stronger. On top of which uchiha are generally really strong and Sasuke is the son of the leader of the Uchiha and the brother of one of the strongest Uchiha, so we can expect him to become really strong as time goes on.

4) Sannin are introduced, strong guys, taught by Hiruzen himself who was already established to be strong, so we can expect them to be near his level.

It is explained how strong everyone is and how to gauge strength with Kage level being just about as strong as it gets. We see and feel as Naruto and friends train hard to attain small bits of power at a time, so small that you dont even notice how much stronger he has gotten from when he was just a kid up.

And that was the beauty of it, the 4th wall is never broken, it feels real because you see him getting this new power and know how he got it and how hard he had to work to get it. And at the very same time the rules of power arent broken, instead of seeing enemies get progressively stronger we mainly see them possessing different powers, and utilizing said power in a way that makes them challenging to defeat.

Look at the strong characters introduced thus far... Hiruzen, Kakuza, Hidan, Zabuza, Orochimaru, Jiraiya, Kisame, Sasori, Killer Bee... All main characters introduced at different times throughout the manga and yet there power level is generally the same. I have no clue who would win in a one on one fight between any of them. Now compare this Freeza to Cell... There isnt even a comparison. If Freeza was a fire Cell would be the Sun. And that was the difference, Naruto was able to incorporate new strong enemies without breaking the forth wall and constantly changing what it meant to be strong.

And then...

Emphasis on "Was"​

Spoiler

Now as time went on the rule was bent, but never truly broken. I mean Madara and Hashirama were high above Kage level but they are the exception that proves the rule. Pain hovered above the Kage standard but never really exceeded it. Obito was strong as well but even he was not immune to the standard of not exceeding the power of the Kage.

Then Naruto gets KCM

Then Madara was Revived as an Edo

Now up until this point, I can still swallow what is going on because this is all within the framework of what has already been introduced. The rules of power are being bent but not broken. I can still understand how strong everyone is in relation to everyone else.

Then Juubi was revived.

Then Obito became the Jinchuriki.

Then Naruto gets the other half of the Kyubi.

Then Sasuke gets Perfect Susano

Then Madara became the Jinchuriki.

Then Naruto and Sasuke get super powers from the Rikudo.

Then Infinite Tsukuyomi is used and Madara gets even stronger.

Then Kaguya comes in.

All of this over the course of maybe 10 manga chapters? Its like every power up is a precursor to another power up that gets you to the next power up.

The main issue here is that I have no clue how strong Madara was... I cant begin to imagine how strong Kaguya is... and dont even get me started on Naruto and Sasuke. I know they are suppose to be really strong at this point but its all seems relative.

How strong is Hiruzen? Kage level. How strong is Naruto and Sasuke? Really strong. How strong is really strong? Who knows... But they defeated the person who fodderized the person who perfected the power of the person who was stronger than the person who kicked the buts of 5 Kages ALONG WITH the shinobi alliance without breaking a sweat. So you tell me how strong they are and ill just shrug and take your word for it.

To me at this point, they are just stronger. Stronger than something that was stronger than something that was WAAY stronger than something I used to think was the strongest thing there is. But other than that I cant give you any more information on how strong they currently are.


And that is the problem, when power becomes relative, then its hard to appreciate how strong something is. I can appreciate 1 million dollars because that is alot of money. I cant appreciate how much money bill gates has because anything higher than 1 million is just icing on the cake. And I certaintly cant appreciate how much more money an oil baron has compared to bill gates.. Its all just relative, at that point its just classified as "more money." And at this point Naruto and Sasuke's strenght is just classified as "Stronger"

Disclaimer​

Spoiler

Well I must say that compared to another manga's and anime's Naruto kept its composure for a hell of alot longer than the others did. And seeing as to how its all about to end I can understand it going out with a bang.

I dont konw, I guess it just breaks the 4th wall for me when I think that after all of this is said and done no one is going to mess with Konoha now that it has Naruto who is "stronger" than anyone else, no clue how much stronger but he is stronger. Or perhaps it will be like before when Hashirama collected all the Tailed Beasts and the other villages saw it as a threat and so he give each Village there own tailed beast in order to appease everyone and balance out power.

I guess this means Naruto will either have to kill himself or... Ive got no clue how they will balance out the power. Maybe they will all trust each other now and hugs and giggles will solve everything...

Conclusion​

Spoiler

I still love and read the manga chapters as they are released (Which? Is it still Tuesday because sometimes its Wednesday and sometimes its Thursday and sometimes it skips a week, there is no rhyme or reason to it anymore.) I guess I was just disappointed how its ending strayed away from what I loved about it.

I hope I didnt upset anyone, this is just my humble opinion. I normally end my threads with "Enjoy the Read" but I am afraid this time that probably wont be the case.

Appreciate the Read​

 

[jiraiya nindo]

Those are some really good points. Part 1 was very consistent with the power levels but imo right after the pain fight is kinda when the power levels went all over the place. Feels like this manga should've ended with the pain fight kinda how dragon ball should've ended with the freeza fight.

 

[DroppinDueces]

*Stands up and applauds* Great thread I feel the exact same way. +rep

 

[guts2nevergiveup]

Very well done my friend and I completely agree with everything. I think it just feels... rushed. Almost as if chapters were skipped lol. Recent example would be sasuke going from not using sop6 techs to all of a sudden making 9 chubaku tenseis like it's nothing.

There used to be a logical progression in everything but it kinda faded away and it feels like it's just bc it's being rushed, if that make sense

 

[Cael]

it seems you got lost in the power scale, of who is stronger than who.
but it's not how much chakra one has, this is probably what confuse you, madara, kaguya, obito
they all believed they were strong because they had the most chakra, chakra seems to be what they considered as being strong.

but that was not the case in this series
it seems in the naruto that there are three major principle that one needs to be able to defeat someone.

1. Arsenal/abilities
2. Strategy
3.Teamwork

but i understand your point of view, the story probably went downhill to you with all these powerup, but that is not the same feeling I get when I read it.

during the time you mention of the ninja's who were on hokage level I was kinda getting bored, there abilites was ok but it was nothing that exciting.

but when obito became the 10 tails I got a little excited because now we are introduce to a power that haven't been seen for centuries.

 

[Lorik Uzumaki]

You have no idea how much i love this thread

 

[seanmadison]

i read the entire book you posted. well done. it's true, before we could say "solo king" or whatever and joke about who could beat who, but now it's just, they're both/all so strong that chakra isn't a factor, or rest, or sleep. established rules, etc. I'd be awfully tired before this nar vs/ sas fight to be honest, but I also expect them to fight at 110% power at this point, with some new techniques or brilliant classic fighting strategy since as you said, this is the ending. Also bummed about the way it deviated from part I in this manner, but also still stoked for this fight and how kishi decides to end it all.

 

[NaruSasuRival]

I think you have some great points, but you may be a bit hash on Naruto. It is true that we cannot measure the power at this point, but I believe we have never been able to measure the power in Naruto. Unlike the other manga you cited, where the winner is strictly stronger than the loser, Naruto does not operate this way. It is rather a strategical fight manga, where even a weaker person can beat someone stronger than him.

For example, Shikamaru beat Hidan, and we know he was weaker in terms of power. Basically, Shikamaru can be stronger than anyone in the manga as far as strategy is concerned. Therefore, strength is not the trick in Naruto. Another example is Naruto vs Nagato. It is true that Naruto was strong, but what settle the fight was not strength. Rather, it was ideology and dialog. For Madara, he was surely strong, and was defeated by someone pretty weaker than him - a true ninja operating in the shadow aka BZ.

Thus, while you make sense, I think you also failed to see the mechanism of Naruto. And even if we want to consider strength, Naruto has not crossed the fourth wall as far as the series is concerned. In Naruto, there is mention of Rikudo has the greatest ninja. So far, no one has been said to reach Rikudo's level - though you can say we don't know that level. As far as I see the series, the strongest power of Naruto is the power that can create everything from nothing, and we have not seen it yet.

Thus, Kishi has established his fourth wall, not the same as yours, but it exist and has not been crossed yet.

 

[NineSNS]

Agreed. And the last couple rinse and repeat cycles were so short they barely got out the soap suds.

 

[Floydical]

This is the reason why short mangas are typically better. FMA had very few, if any, rinse and repeat cycles.... as it was very short. If the author is only focused on getting their intended message out, things tend to be done with rather quickly.

Imo Pain far exceeded Kage's and proved this as he soloed Tsunade in a millisecond. Pain was, undoubtedly, the strongest Ninja in the manga back than, greatly exceeding Tobi's offensive strength. We all knew Naruto only beat him due to the Kyuubi breaking out and the fact that Pain was limited to not killing him. Again, Kage level was far, FAR exceeded even then.

To me the only real deviation from the established rule was Kaguya. Madara was insanely strong as the Juubi jin, like truly insanely strong. Naruto and Sasuke didn't even defeat him, he was absorbed before they could. So for Kaguya to do that to Madara she must be so much more powerful that Naruto and Sasuke are gonna be fodderized right? Nope, turns out Kaguya is only about as strong as Madara was, at least it seems like that to me. I don't know for sure but her power level was the only one that seemed out of the line of progression.

 

[nandateme]

You're too much a fan of naruto to realize how mediocre this story is. In fact, Kishi writes as if his audience was still 5 years old. As you are definitely pointing it, we are no children, neither teenagers, we're all adults who's common sense and rational have evolved over the past 20 years, unlike Kishi, so what can make sense to a 6 year old child becomes completely ridiculous to an adult mind. And that's all Naruto, a manga that never took off, and indeed dies in the egg, although a 20 year old egg!

 

[Opiuchus05]

The main thing I always liked about naruto was is the fact there's a set power level
In dbz and most other mangas you just keep getting stronger and stronger,in naruto Kaguya are the sage are those top power levels you don't get stronger than them
All naruto did throughout the war was basically get full control of kurama and other bijuu chakra

 

[jiraiya nindo]

This is the reason why short mangas are typically better. FMA had very few, if any, rinse and repeat cycles.... as it was very short. If the author is only focused on getting their intended message out, things tend to be done with rather quickly.

Imo Pain far exceeded Kage's and proved this as he soloed Tsunade in a millisecond. Pain was, undoubtedly, the strongest Ninja in the manga back than, greatly exceeding Tobi's offensive strength. We all knew Naruto only beat him due to the Kyuubi breaking out and the fact that Pain was limited to not killing him. Again, Kage level was far, FAR exceeded even then.

To me the only real deviation from the established rule was Kaguya. Madara was insanely strong as the Juubi jin, like truly insanely strong. Naruto and Sasuke didn't even defeat him, he was absorbed before they could. So for Kaguya to do that to Madara she must be so much more powerful that Naruto and Sasuke are gonna be fodderized right? Nope, turns out Kaguya is only about as strong as Madara was, at least it seems like that to me. I don't know for sure but her power level was the only one that seemed out of the line of progression.

While I agree with your overall point, what I liked about kaguya was that her overwhelming power was only matched by her ignorance of how to effectively use that power. When she was worshipped as the demon, she was the only ine with the power of chakra. In her return, humans had mastered ways to effectively use chakra while she hadn't. So she was stronger than kage level but also weaker because she was just raw power incarnate. Kinda like the bijuu without a jinchuuriki.

 

[FearxDeath]

While I agree with your overall point, what I liked about kaguya was that her overwhelming power was only matched by her ignorance of how to effectively use that power. When she was worshipped as the demon, she was the only ine with the power of chakra. In her return, humans had mastered ways to effectively use chakra while she hadn't. So she was stronger than kage level but also weaker because she was just raw power incarnate. Kinda like the bijuu without a jinchuuriki.

Yes but you forget that she has the sharingan so any technique Naruto and Sasuke would have used would have been immediantly copied, understood and added to her arsenal.

The problem is that when you are watching 2 gods fight, 2 people who you have no idea how strong they are but all you know is that they are really strong, then it is alot like watch 2 people play a sport that you have never seen before. You can get the jists of things, like one person scores or one person fouls or that one person is working really hard. But for the most part you dont understand the rules of the game, what team has what kind of advantage and etc... When 2 gods are fighting you are less analysing their skill and strenght and you are more just sitting back and trying to enjoy the show, which has its merits. But for the most part that has not been what Naruto has been about in the past.