[Theory] [FEAR Truth behind Mokuton

[FearxDeath]

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Its been a while since i have made a thread so cut me some slack, in this thread I am going to discuss why Mokuton is not as special as people give it credit for.

How Strong is Mokuton​

Spoiler

To me the #1 reason why people think Mokuton is special or extremely power is because one of the strongest ninja in the Narutoverse, Hashirama Senju, just happens to be the only person known to have Mokuton. But this is faulty logic:

People think: Hashirama is strong because he uses Mokuton.

It really is: Mokuton is strong because Hashirama uses it.

And with that I could argue that if Hashirama used only water style then everyone would point out how water style is obviously stronger than the rest based on what he could do with it. And if he used Lava Style and could summon a volcano then everyone would say "HOW DO YOU BEAT A VOLCANO!! HASHIRAMA OP!!! LAVA STYLE OP!!!" But instead he creates alot of wood and it gets the same response.

With that you see that Mokutons strenght does not lie within itself but rather within the fact that an extremely skilled ninja is weilding it. Another example is Yamato, another Wood Style user who happens the have the EXACT SAME DNA as Hashirama, he is a living clone of hashirama down to the very last molecule. And yet his Mokuton is no where near Hashirama's level. That is because it is not Mokuton, it is Hashirama.

"A butterknife in the hands of a master is 1000 times deadlier than a Razor sharp blade in the hands of an amateur."

Mokuton is so strong that it can take over people​

Spoiler

This too is a misconception, one that arose during Sasuke's fight with Danzo scene here:

Spoiler

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In these scans we see Danzo being overpowered by Hashirama's power. And from this people assume that Mokuton has so much life energy that ordinary people have an extremely hard time controlling it, to the point where even Danzo couldnt control it.

But to that I would like to remind these people of something:

Spoiler

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The exact same thing happened to Kabuto when he tried to control Orochimaru's powers. So we see that it was not the Mokuton that was taking over Kabuto/Danzo but it was actually there power, there will, there essence that was overpowering the host.

Now one can poke at this by saying Kabuto is weak and thus ofcourse he would have trouble not being taken over by Orochimaru. To that I say this:

Spoiler

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^ In the above scans we see Kabuto have a flashback when Orochimaru is talking to him. Orochimaru states that he is as strong as Kakashi. And one can expect him to have made certain leaps and strides from that point one, consider how much stronger Sasuke has gotten during his short time with Orochimaru.

Spoiler

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^ In the above scan we see Tsunade blatently say that Kabutos sense and strenght exceeds what hers were at her prime

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^ Last but not least let us not underestimate how impressive a feat this is. Not only was he able to decipher what was what after all his neural connections were mixed up, but he was able to instantly use them all in unison being able to appear as though he could move normally. Think about it right shoulder moves left knee, right pinky moves left foot, right knee moves left leg, now put them all together to move around.

With that we see that Kabuto is no chump and even he had an extremely hard time dealing with Orochimaru's chakra.​

Mokuton is a Gift from the Juubi​

Spoiler

This is the most common of the misconceptions and it is only viable when strenghtened by the above misconceptions. But let us see what Mokuton really is.

Spoiler

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Earth Style in one hand, Water Style in the other. Simple as that. This same concept can be applied to all element based kekkie genkia, Lava Style (Fire in one hand, Earth in the other), Stream Release (Water in one hand, Air in the other.)

Its not magic folks.

Its relation to the Juubi is coincidental only, people have all rumored that Hashirama uses Wood Style, Juubi is made out of Wood, therefore THEY ARE RELATED SOMEHOW. And it doesnt help that Hashirama is a Senju who is a descendant of the Rikudo who was the Juubi's first Jinchuriki. But I maintain that there is no solid connection between the two. Keep in mind that the Juubi never uses Mokuton, he is merely made out of Mokuton and extends his branches and arms.

Now I will admit, I WILL ADMIT!!! a strong argument can be made against this fact. I mean, Uchiha got the Sharingan which relates to the Juubi's eyes. And the Senju got Wood Release which corelates to the Juubi's Body, YES. And its because of that that I will hold off on this section of my thread, I just wanted to say that I do not readily accept the notion that the 2 are related until told otherwise by kishi but I will admit that there is a strong relation there BUT.

My main beef with this is the idea is the fact that ONLY Hashirama is able to use Wood Style. Why? Every single member of the Uchiha have the ability to use the Sharingan, yet Hashirama was the ONLY Senju out of hundreds if not thousands born with Mokuton... Now if there was more Senju hell if there was even ONE other Senju member with Mokuton then I could say "Ok there is a pattern here, maybe only the Senju can use Mokuton" and after that I would have to ask why only the senju can use Mokuton which would lead me to the Juubi.

But only Hashirama can use Mokuton... Just One Senju, its not even a pattern. If a guy walks up to you and said he was the best 3 point shooter in the world, then turned around and shot a 3 and made it you would say... "Do it again" and if he made it again you would be amazed. If he refused to shoot again you would be suspicious, there is no pattern, no consistency, a lone shot isnt, SHOULDN'T be enough to convince anyone of exclusivity.

With that said it is because of the fact that Hashirama is the only Senju capable of using Mokuton that I must say that I dont think it is a trait limited to only the Senju but rather it is just a very rare release.

Illusion of Rarity​

Spoiler

This ties into the last section a little bit but here it is.

People like to believe that Mokuton is something special because it is rare, I mean only 1 person in the history of the Manga has ever been able to use it. But thats wrong, keep in mind that:

1) Only 2 people have ever been able to use Dust Release. (Muu and Oonoki)

2) Wind Style was said to be extremely rare by Asuma. (Roughly 8 people in the Manga can use it)

3) Magnitsm is another rare Release one which only 3 ninja have ever been able to use.

4) Ice Release, much like Mokuton only 1 person in the manga could use this. (Haku)

5) Lava Style, only 3 people in the manga could use it.

6) Lightning Release which only Darui could use.

7) Scorch Release, only 1 ninja

8) Boil Release, Just Mei.


As you can see the Rarity of Mokuton is not a foreshadowing of its strenght but rather a characteristic of Kekkie Genkia in general.

Conclusion​

Spoiler

I am not sure how informational this is, but I hope anyone with an open mind was able to find this useful in some fashion. Personally I think Mokuton is a great and power Kekkia Genkia made even more power by the fact that Hashirama is such a skilled Ninja (Who may I add was so skilled in both medical jutsu that he was able to heal himself as he fought).

But I think Hashirama's greatness has spilled over onto Mokuton and thus people begin to overrated Mokuton or even blame it for Hashirama's greatness. But lets not get confused regular Uchiha could not do with their Susan'o and Sharingans what Madara could do with his, and Yamato can not do with his Mokuton what Hashirama can do with his. That alone should tell you that the credit lies within the Ninja and not his choice of weapon.

Enjoy!​

 

[Saikyokami]

Darui used storm release and black lightning two abilities shared with the second raikage.

 

[FireBird Marco]

And what's so special about Orochimaru?
Without the stolen power of Tobirama aka Reanimation, he's pretty much an anbu level ninja..

 

[Saikyokami]

And what's so special about Orochimaru?
Without the stolen power of Tobirama aka Reanimation, he's pretty much an anbu level ninja..

Lol no he's not.
Your forgetting he fought a 4 tailed naruto without dying. Mind you at this time he couldn't use any jutsu. do you really think he's that weak?
he even fought jiraiya and tsunade.

 

[FireBird Marco]

Lol no he's not.
Your forgetting he fought a 4 tailed naruto without dying. Mind you at this time he couldn't use any jutsu. do you really think he's that weak?
he even fought jiraiya and tsunade.

If he weren't able to use any jutsus he would've died there.
He's snake sage mode which also gives him some kind of fake immortality is what saved him against 4 tailed Naruto.
Not having hands doesn't mean you can't use jutsu!

 

[Saikyokami]

If he weren't able to use and jutsu he would've died there.
He's snake sage mode which also gives him some kind of fake immortality is what saved him against 4 tailed Naruto.
Not having hands doesn't mean you can't use jutsu!

It does jutsu that requires handseals u_u (which most do Lol)

 

[eyesofthekyuubi44]

If he weren't able to use any jutsus he would've died there.
He's snake sage mode which also gives him some kind of fake immortality is what saved him against 4 tailed Naruto.
Not having hands doesn't mean you can't use jutsu!

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Orochimaru disagrees with you.

 

[SIR HERDERP PRESIDERP SDO]

Mokuton is the ultimate manifestation of the Juubi's Yang power, much like the MS and EMS is the ultimate manifestation of the Juubi's Yin power, but like the MS/EMS which only a few Uchihas were able to awaken them it was only Hashirama (and most probably the Younger Son) who was able to awaken the ultimate Yang manifestation of the Juubi's power which is Mokuton.

The Uchihas all share in similitude the basic Sharingan (Juubi's Yin) whereas all the Senjus share in similitude strong bodies (Juubi's Yang) the zenith of the Juubi's Yin power is the MS/EMS, the pinnacle of the Juubi's Yang power is Mokuton.

 

[Mr Hiru]

Hey Fear, what's the proof of Hashirama being the only one Senju among thousands who inherited Mokuton?

I have the quite doubt of this statement, since it was been bought before?

I mean, I agree it is a complex manifestation of Earth + Water + Yang Energy, a rare trait to be achieved, but it is as rare as achieving a Mangekyo Sharingan. The only reason we have seen lot of Uchiha with this trait is Plot, ergo, the statement of "Hashirama is the only one because there aren't others Senju with this trait" loses strength, because I could argue the that the reason you haven't seen other Senju with Mokuton is Plot as well.

But really, Plot is a cheap argument, and as I prefer to be opened to possibilities, I'd like a hard argument of why do you think Hashirama was the only one (historic data doesn't quite fit as answer, I'd like to hear a definite argument proving that there weren't more Senju with this trait).

 

[Senju Bean]

True, one shot techs like Kamui, ST, CT, Amaterasu, KA, Tsukuyomi should be more efficient.

Maybe it has to do with chakra efficiency. Maybe Hashi used the same amount of chakra that Madara used for PS, but yet from an object 10 times bigger: Sushinsenju. Wood is known for growing after all.

 

[Mr Hiru]

Wood is known for growing after all.

This sounds right and so wrong at same time. :|... you know Madara right? He loves wood.

 

[FearxDeath]

And what's so special about Orochimaru?
Without the stolen power of Tobirama aka Reanimation, he's pretty much an anbu level ninja..

Orochimaru defeated Hiruzen, Who was said to be the strongest of the 5 current kages at the time, which alone says that he is far above Kage level.

Orochimaru took on the 4 tailed cloak Naruto WITHOUT JUTSU, now you can say that he was able to do it with this or with that but the fact remains that he did it. Faulting him for being immortal would be like faulting Hashirama for having wood style or Naruto for being a jinchuriki.

To say Orochimaru is ANBU level just shows your ignorance. Sasuke defeated Danzo who was the leader of the ANBU. Yet it has been reitterated several times that the only reason Sasuke was able to defeat Orochimaru was because Orochimaru was in such a weakened state and also couldnt not use Jutsu.

Mokuton is the ultimate manifestation of the Juubi's Yang power, much like the MS and EMS is the ultimate manifestation of the Juubi's Yin power, but like the MS/EMS which only a few Uchihas were able to awaken them it was only Hashirama (and most probably the Younger Son) who was able to awaken the ultimate Yang manifestation of the Juubi's power which is Mokuton.

The Uchihas all share in similitude the basic Sharingan (Juubi's Yin) whereas all the Senjus share in similitude strong bodies (Juubi's Yang) the zenith of the Juubi's Yin power is the MS/EMS, the pinnacle of the Juubi's Yang power is Mokuton.

Basically your saying that Mokuton and the Sharingan are both connected to the Juubi:

Sharingan > MS/EMS > Juubi's Eyes/Yin

Strong Bodies? > Mokuton? > Juubi's Body/Yang

But here is the problem, with the first example it makes sense, they are all eyes that relaivly do the same thing. In the 2nd case, he case we are arguing, one can get confused trying to find a corelation between strong bodies and Mokuton... To be more precise you would have to get confused because there is no correlation. Niether is any reference made throughout the manga in this case.

But thats not my only problem with this, my main problem with this is the fact that Hashirama is the ONLY one with Mokuton... How can you possibly group Mokuton as a pattern exclusive to the Senju when only 1 person within the Senju has ever gotten it, it goes against all logic. It only makes sense because people arent following the facts, they are making the facts fit their conclusion. But there is no reason to think Mokuton and Senju are related at all. Lastly you state that Hashirama was able to awaken the ultimate yang etc... Which is funny because he didnt awaken anything, he was born with the kekkie genkia. No awakening necessary, no spiritual journey, no hard work or aspirations. Which is another mark against the idea that Mokuton is related to the Juubi/Senju.

Again the ONLY reason people have gone as far to draw this conclusion is the fact that the Juubi is made out of Mokuton. If that wasnt the case anyone making this assertion would be laughed out of the room. But it is the case which gives the argument some viability and any coincidence around said situation strength it doesn't deserve.

Hey Fear, what's the proof of Hashirama being the only one Senju among thousands who inherited Mokuton?

I have the quite doubt of this statement, since it was been bought before?

I mean, I agree it is a complex manifestation of Earth + Water + Yang Energy, a rare trait to be achieved, but it is as rare as achieving a Mangekyo Sharingan. The only reason we have seen lot of Uchiha with this trait is Plot, ergo, the statement of "Hashirama is the only one because there aren't others Senju with this trait" loses strength, because I could argue the that the reason you haven't seen other Senju with Mokuton is Plot as well.

But really, Plot is a cheap argument, and as I prefer to be opened to possibilities, I'd like a hard argument of why do you think Hashirama was the only one (historic data doesn't quite fit as answer, I'd like to hear a definite argument proving that there weren't more Senju with this trait).

Ill begin by saying that Plot makes for a terrible scapegoat. And if your argument hedges on the fact that "Plot is screwy" then your argument is weak at best. To say the only reason alot of Uchiha etc.... is because of Plot. Well how do I argue against that? All i can say is "assume for one second that plot is not the cause and that kishi knows what he is doing". But I think we can both agree on that.

So your asking why I think Hashirama is the only Mokuton user?

1) We have seen no other Senju Mokuton users.

2) We have heard of no other Senju Mokuton users.

3) Whenever Mokuton is referenced in the manga it is always referenced in regards to Hashirama, and not in regards to the Senju or any other Mokuton user. [

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]. Over 100 chapters before the 2nd Hokage was revealed to be able to use FTG it was hinted by Minato [

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]. One would expect to see something similar in the case of Mokuton, but we dont.

4) But lastly I would say that you dont prove a negative, it isnt my job to prove to you that no one else can use Mokuton, it is your duty to prove to me that someone else CAN use mokuton. One does not disprove or prove a negative. If I came up to you and said there is an elephant on the roof and you said no there isnt, should I expect you to prove me wrong? So with that I leave it to you to prove to me beyond a reasonable doubt that someone else can use Mokuton. Whch is something I doubt you could do given points 1-3.

 

[Meowazziel]

There are like 20 or so lava release users and like 20 or so storm release users at least.
Remember the chapter where the alliance makes this cement like attack around the Juubi and the one
where they blind it? It showed lot of unnamed lava release and storm release users.
Lot of unnamed wind users as well. Haku his mother had ice release too and he comes from a clan of ice release users, so there are probably more unnamed ones too. However I am listing unnamed people now I know.

Tbh, I believe the Mokuton abillitie and the Juubi are related.
Both even function in the same way. Both can absorb chakra. Both have the flower version as well.
I dont care that only Hashirama has been shown with Mokuton. To use it at his lvl, it could be a lot
harder than earth + water. The more chakra (yang mainly I think) the better it becomes or maybe a certain lvl of chakra/yang chakra is required.

However I believe that all kekkei genkai are related to the Juubi as well.
In my opinion all kekkei genkai users=related in some way to the sage and his sons and therefore the Juubi.
Not all Uchiha have Sharingan(they have the potential I think) and they certainly not all have jutsus like MS, EMS and
abilities like Susanoo, Kamui, Kotoamatsukami and the likes. It is less rare than Mokuton though.

While being the Juubi's host, Obito could suddenly use elemental kekkei genkai (the black stuff is even a higher form
than kekkei genkai tota, according to Hiruzen). This enforces my believe of kekkei genkai being from the Juubi.

I hope and it would be interesting, if Kishi will explain why Hashirama has Mokuton and why we dont know of anyone else who has it without Hashirama's DNA though.

 

[valandil988]

Aspects of Mokuton I want to point out \/

I agree, people have let their awe of Hashirama spill over into the hype over Mokuton. However There are some traits of Mokuton that make it ultimately superior to other elemental forms and sub forms of jutsu. However I would like to point out that the Tailed-beast "suppression" effect that Hashirama demonstrates during his Battle of VoE with Madara (Used against the Kyuubi) only required passing interest or difficulty.

The "Suppression" effect is different from the "Absorbing" effect that this sub element demonstrates. Yamato has demonstrated the Absorbing effect (specifically when he absorbed Naruto's spill over chakra during training) and part of the Suppression abilities of Mokuton (specifically when he suppressed Naruto's ver 4). However he did not demonstrate the "true" suppression effects which still relied on Hashirama's chakra (source: the necklace).

This leads me to say that the "Suppression" (The Ability to suppress tailed beasts) effects are not a part of Mokuton, the Absorbing properties are a natural part of the style which Yamato and the Juubi have exhibited on different levels by absorbing large amounts of chakra.

There is also another aspect of Mokuton that makes it superior to other elemental styles....its alive, its not just a lump of lava or a blob of water its actually alive. I tend to think of Mokuton as more of an extension of the users body than a simple elemental jutsu. Much like the Juubi's body is made from wood the clones it made were an extension of its body (though this example is kinda iffy it gets my point across).

-------------------------------------

Hypothesis on Suppression abilities \/

Now I would like to suggest a reasoning for which why Hashirama can suppress Tailed beasts properly and without nary a thought (as demonstrated by VoE battle) and Yamato must devote his entire being to the task and still need help from the shodai's necklace.

Whats different between Yamato and Hashirama? Quite simply if we ignore the massive chakra Hashirama has the only difference is that Hashirama has Sage Mode.

Now we have to remember that Hashirama demonstrated his Suppression abilities on the Kyuubi while using Sage mode. I believe that Sage mode is the key to Hashirama's effortless suppression of the Kyuubi. Note that the specific suppression jutsu demonstrated by Yamato called "Kakuan Nitten Suishu" simply requires the user to lay hands on the tailed beast. In Yamato's case it required him to lay direct hands on Naruto, in Hashirama's case he used the arm of his Wood Human technique (further evidence that his Mokuton jutsu acts like an extension of his body).

Now the question of what actually happens when the user comes into direct or in-direct contact with the beast. I believe that this jutsu sets up an artificial chakra link between the two beings much like how Naruto "pulled" out Kurama's chakra. During Naruto's confrontation with Kurama we see how the Kyuubi chakra overwhelms and "pushes" into Naruto's body. This is EXACTLY what happens during the "Kakuan Nitten Suishu" technique the users chakra has to "push" into the victims body and overwhelm them.

All that matters is the quantity, the potency and of course the will behind it. Kurama has all three of these necessary needs to overwhelm anybodies chakra hence why Naruto got overwhelmed initially. However if Kurama trumps pretty much everyone in the "quantity, potency and will" department then how the hell did Hashirama suppress Kurama's chakra in all three areas?

Well we can guess that Hashirama's will is very strong so it could be a match for Kurama's or it might surpass Kurama's its difficult to measure. The potency of chakra, yes likely Hashirama's chakra is very strong capable of feats other shinobi could only dream of, however it wouldn't match Kurama's tailed beast chakra. Quantity, now for this we have some real evidence, when Hahsirama saw Naruto had shared out all of this chakra (or Kurama's chakra) Hashirama's states that is was comparable to his own PRIME levels of chakra IE Hashirama's chakra reserves while massive in scope match only HALF of Kurama's chakra. This means that Kurama at prime levels would surpass or match Hashirama in all three areas necessary to be resistant to "Kakuan Nitten Suishu" traditionally Kurama should have been the only tailed beast that Hashirama could not suppress.

If you add Sage mode to the deal then Hashirama only gains an exact third more chakra in the creation of senjutsu, however that increases potency levels of his Chakra greatly, likely matching or surpassing Kurama in that department. Still you see a gulf between the two beings Kurama still trumps Hashirama's chakra levels by a comparatively massive margin. To create the scene that we see during the VoE battle Hashirama has to trump Kurama in every way possible and effortlessly the question becomes how is that possible?

I have a idea as to how Hashirama might be able to do this. It could be that he is taking Sage mode to an entirely new level. He might be using vast quantities of Natural energy to completely overwhelm Kurama directly with an equal amount of Natural energy instead of using his own Senjutsu. How he might do this without turning to stone I don't know but its the only way I can see Hashirama being able to completely trump Kurama in all departments.

Yamato on the other hand doesn't have sage mode to help him suppress Naruto in his ver 4 state. But he does have the potent chakra of the Shodai in the necklace to help him in the potency department. Hmmm Will? Thats a hard one, I can't really tell but I'm going to guess that Yamato's will was a match for Kurama's "feral" chakra at this point (Kurama wasn't directly controlling his chakra he was just pumping it into Naruto), this does not mean that I'm saying Yamato's will is stronger than Kurama's. Quantity....Now this is hard how much Chakra does Naruto channel while creating a ver 4 cloak, bare in mind he had just used a lot of chakra against Orochimaru and was quite "sedate" when Yamato started his technique....so perhaps Naruto's ver 4 cloak was somewhat more depleted than normal. So lets say that Yamato had a tough mental battle against this chakra.

So ultimately the suppression of tailed beast chakra is something anybody can do. Its kinda linked to the six paths jutsu. As they have similar effects.

Anyway I pretty much said everything I wanted to say on this topic.

 

[osba]

you seem to forget that kabuto was not being taken over by a "(nin)jutsu".

 

[Mr Hiru]

Orochimaru defeated Hiruzen, Who was said to be the strongest of the 5 current kages at the time, which alone says that he is far above Kage level.

Orochimaru took on the 4 tailed cloak Naruto WITHOUT JUTSU, now you can say that he was able to do it with this or with that but the fact remains that he did it. Faulting him for being immortal would be like faulting Hashirama for having wood style or Naruto for being a jinchuriki.

To say Orochimaru is ANBU level just shows your ignorance. Sasuke defeated Danzo who was the leader of the ANBU. Yet it has been reitterated several times that the only reason Sasuke was able to defeat Orochimaru was because Orochimaru was in such a weakened state and also couldnt not use Jutsu.




Basically your saying that Mokuton and the Sharingan are both connected to the Juubi:

Sharingan > MS/EMS > Juubi's Eyes/Yin

Strong Bodies? > Mokuton? > Juubi's Body/Yang

But here is the problem, with the first example it makes sense, they are all eyes that relaivly do the same thing. In the 2nd case, he case we are arguing, one can get confused trying to find a corelation between strong bodies and Mokuton... To be more precise you would have to get confused because there is no correlation. Niether is any reference made throughout the manga in this case.

But thats not my only problem with this, my main problem with this is the fact that Hashirama is the ONLY one with Mokuton... How can you possibly group Mokuton as a pattern exclusive to the Senju when only 1 person within the Senju has ever gotten it, it goes against all logic. It only makes sense because people arent following the facts, they are making the facts fit their conclusion. But there is no reason to think Mokuton and Senju are related at all. Lastly you state that Hashirama was able to awaken the ultimate yang etc... Which is funny because he didnt awaken anything, he was born with the kekkie genkia. No awakening necessary, no spiritual journey, no hard work or aspirations. Which is another mark against the idea that Mokuton is related to the Juubi/Senju.

Again the ONLY reason people have gone as far to draw this conclusion is the fact that the Juubi is made out of Mokuton. If that wasnt the case anyone making this assertion would be laughed out of the room. But it is the case which gives the argument some viability and any coincidence around said situation strength it doesn't deserve.




Ill begin by saying that Plot makes for a terrible scapegoat. And if your argument hedges on the fact that "Plot is screwy" then your argument is weak at best. To say the only reason alot of Uchiha etc.... is because of Plot. Well how do I argue against that? All i can say is "assume for one second that plot is not the cause and that kishi knows what he is doing". But I think we can both agree on that.

So your asking why I think Hashirama is the only Mokuton user?

1) We have seen no other Senju Mokuton users.

2) We have heard of no other Senju Mokuton users.

3) Whenever Mokuton is referenced in the manga it is always referenced in regards to Hashirama, and not in regards to the Senju or any other Mokuton user. [

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]. Over 100 chapters before the 2nd Hokage was revealed to be able to use FTG it was hinted by Minato [

You must be registered for see links

]. One would expect to see something similar in the case of Mokuton, but we dont.

4) But lastly I would say that you dont prove a negative, it isnt my job to prove to you that no one else can use Mokuton, it is your duty to prove to me that someone else CAN use mokuton. One does not disprove or prove a negative. If I came up to you and said there is an elephant on the roof and you said no there isnt, should I expect you to prove me wrong? So with that I leave it to you to prove to me beyond a reasonable doubt that someone else can use Mokuton. Whch is something I doubt you could do given points 1-3.

No my friend, it is not my job to prove there are other users with Mokuton. Because if I say there were, I would be creating a valid possibility, so in fact, I'll say it, taking all responsabilities for my own statement...

"There were other users able to use Mokuton aside of Hashirama".

And I don't need proof to prove a possibility, because the basis of a possibility is the lack of counter-argumentation, if it has sense.

And the reasoning is:

- Mokuton is the manifestation of the Earth + Water Kekkei Genkai, inherited from Bloodline
- Yamato's abilities were created with the use of DNA (Bloodline)
- Mokuton is based on Yang Energy (when Naruto got near Yamato, Naruto with his Yang Kurama Cloak activated Yamato's Mokuton, making some bonzais over the wood)
- Senju lineage is a thinned version of the Younger son's branch, so it was genetically possible to have more than one in hundred of clan members to wield the Mokuton ability if they inherited a lot of Yang Energy (genetic trait) and mastery over the Earth and Water element (training).

The only difference with an Uchiha awakening the MS is the Earth + Water Element, since the Uchiha need Yin Energy (yes, the special chakra sprout from the brain is full of Yin Energy) and traumatic events to take place (these traumatic events are the counter-part of the training of Earth and Water Element).

...Finally, you have the freedom to prove wrong the possibility of other Senju to have mastery over the mokuton element, but you're claiming something almost if it were absolute or dogma only because you haven't seen it, and that's a fallacy (inductive fallacy in fact). That's all I have to say.

 

[valandil988]

Wooow ^^ pretty nice smack down. But he's right the Senju Clan had the nickname "The Senju clan of the forest" I find that rather convenient for the Clan that just so has the potential to have Mokuton to be named after that possibility, and if Hashirama was the ONLY Mokuton user then they wouldn't have that nickname. Unless they lived in a forest like I donno 90% of the rest of fire countries clans lol. If you only needed to live in a forest to get that nickname it doesn't have much meaning then does it.

 

[FearxDeath]

There are like 20 or so lava release users and like 20 or so storm release users at least.
Remember the chapter where the alliance makes this cement like attack around the Juubi and the one
where they blind it? It showed lot of unnamed lava release and storm release users.
Lot of unnamed wind users as well. Haku his mother had ice release too and he comes from a clan of ice release users, so there are probably more unnamed ones too. However I am listing unnamed people now I know.

Tbh, I believe the Mokuton abillitie and the Juubi are related.
Both even function in the same way. Both can absorb chakra. Both have the flower version as well.
I dont care that only Hashirama has been shown with Mokuton. To use it at his lvl, it could be a lot
harder than earth + water. The more chakra (yang mainly I think) the better it becomes or maybe a certain lvl of chakra/yang chakra is required.

However I believe that all kekkei genkai are related to the Juubi as well.
In my opinion all kekkei genkai users=related in some way to the sage and his sons and therefore the Juubi.
Not all Uchiha have Sharingan(they have the potential I think) and they certainly not all have jutsus like MS, EMS and
abilities like Susanoo, Kamui, Kotoamatsukami and the likes. It is less rare than Mokuton though.

While being the Juubi's host, Obito could suddenly use elemental kekkei genkai (the black stuff is even a higher form
than kekkei genkai tota, according to Hiruzen). This enforces my believe of kekkei genkai being from the Juubi.

I hope and it would be interesting, if Kishi will explain why Hashirama has Mokuton and why we dont know of anyone else who has it without Hashirama's DNA though.

Here you go:

Spoiler

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As you can clearly see neither storm release nor Lava style was used. Just lighting, Rock, Fire and Water.

Lastly Wind is not a Kekkia Genkai and before i comment on the Haku thing I am going to need you to provide me with the scan that says what you are saying.

you seem to forget that kabuto was not being taken over by a "(nin)jutsu".

If your going to be vague the least you could do is make sure I understand it lol... I have no clue what your trying to say here? Was Danzo taken over by a jutsu? If so which one?

No my friend, it is not my job to prove there are other users with Mokuton. Because if I say there were, I would be creating a valid possibility, so in fact, I'll say it, taking all responsabilities for my own statement...

"There were other users able to use Mokuton aside of Hashirama".

And I don't need proof to prove a possibility, because the basis of a possibility is the lack of counter-argumentation, if it has sense.

And the reasoning is:

- Mokuton is the manifestation of the Earth + Water Kekkei Genkai, inherited from Bloodline
- Yamato's abilities were created with the use of DNA (Bloodline)
- Mokuton is based on Yang Energy (when Naruto got near Yamato, Naruto with his Yang Kurama Cloak activated Yamato's Mokuton, making some bonzais over the wood)
- Senju lineage is a thinned version of the Younger son's branch, so it was genetically possible to have more than one in hundred of clan members to wield the Mokuton ability if they inherited a lot of Yang Energy (genetic trait) and mastery over the Earth and Water element (training).

The only difference with an Uchiha awakening the MS is the Earth + Water Element, since the Uchiha need Yin Energy (yes, the special chakra sprout from the brain is full of Yin Energy) and traumatic events to take place (these traumatic events are the counter-part of the training of Earth and Water Element).

...Finally, you have the freedom to prove wrong the possibility of other Senju to have mastery over the mokuton element, but you're claiming something almost if it were absolute or dogma only because you haven't seen it, and that's a fallacy (inductive fallacy in fact). That's all I have to say.

Your extremely mistaken man, you've been slipping recently.

The person with the burden of proof is the person who argues the affirmative. Because one cannot disprove a negative. If I walked up and told you that the loch ness monster was in the ocean, it is not my job to go out and disprove it, rather it is your job, the person claiming the affirmative, that bears the burden of proof. And it is the failure and/or lack of said proof that leads me to my assertion which is that there are no other Senju users.

Asking me to prove that there are no Senju Mokuton users would be the same as asking me to prove there is no loch ness monster... It is the person claiming the affirmatives burden to provide proof of the existence of said thing, and until that point and time the negative of said thing stands. Thus there are no Senju Mokuton users until proven otherwise.

Now let me get to your reasoning:

1) I understand that Mokuton is a Kekkie Genkai, but Element based Kekkei Genkai so for have not shown exclusivity, save for Ice Release. Foor instance Lava Style has been used by several different ninja from different families, this alone shows that Kekkie Genkai are not always exclusive. So far the only KG that has been even said to be exclusive is Haku's Ice Release. So the question is why are you adding exclusivity where there is none. What makes you think Mokuton is limited only to the Senju?

2) Yamato is a clone of Hashirama, Hashirama had Mokuton, thus it stands to reason that so would Yamato. Yamato and Hashirama are pretty much the same person.

3) What does that have to do with anything?

4) Alot of things are possible, that doesnt make them true or likely. It is possible that Madara is really a good guy, It is possible that the Obito is playing a prank on everyone and they are already inside of Infinite Tsukuyomi, ALOT of things are possible. Now lets talk about Manga facts and not conjecture.

Traumatic events are counter parts to the Earth and Water Elements..... What? Why? You cant just say things without rhythm or reason and expect me to consider it.

And this is the part that makes me laugh, you said I invoked the Inductive Fallacy when it is actually YOU who invoked it LOL. Which is when you take a premise about a sample or individual and assume it to be true of the whole. For example:

The proportion Q of the sample has attribute A.
Therefore, the proportion Q of the population has attribute A.

In your terms:

Hashirama who is a Senju has Mokuton
Therefore, All Senju have Mokuton

LOL that was funny, but yah, thanks for disproving yourself? Your slipping man you used to be alot better than this. I take a break for a month or 2 and sht hits the fan x__X

Wooow ^^ pretty nice smack down. But he's right the Senju Clan had the nickname "The Senju clan of the forest" I find that rather convenient for the Clan that just so has the potential to have Mokuton to be named after that possibility, and if Hashirama was the ONLY Mokuton user then they wouldn't have that nickname. Unless they lived in a forest like I donno 90% of the rest of fire countries clans lol. If you only needed to live in a forest to get that nickname it doesn't have much meaning then does it.

The reason they were named Senju of the Forest was because the Leader of the clan Hashirama was skilled with Mokuton jutsu. And that is how they earned that nickname.

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:

"The most famous member of the clan was Hashirama Senju, whose unique Wood Release ninjutsu that gave the clan the nickname the Senju clan of the forest (森の千手一族, Mori no Senju Ichizoku), and his ability to control the tailed beasts, made him the greatest shinobi of his time. "

 

[Mr Hiru]

Here you go:

Spoiler

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As you can clearly see neither storm release nor Lava style was used. Just lighting, Rock, Fire and Water.

Lastly Wind is not a Kekkia Genkai and before i comment on the Haku thing I am going to need you to provide me with the scan that says what you are saying.



If your going to be vague the least you could do is make sure I understand it lol... I have no clue what your trying to say here? Was Danzo taken over by a jutsu? If so which one?




Your extremely mistaken man, you've been slipping recently.

The person with the burden of proof is the person who argues the affirmative. Because one cannot disprove a negative. If I walked up and told you that the loch ness monster was in the ocean, it is not my job to go out and disprove it, rather it is your job, the person claiming the affirmative, that bears the burden of proof. And it is the failure and/or lack of said proof that leads me to my assertion which is that there are no other Senju users.

Asking me to prove that there are no Senju Mokuton users would be the same as asking me to prove there is no loch ness monster... It is the person claiming the affirmatives burden to provide proof of the existence of said thing, and until that point and time the negative of said thing stands. Thus there are no Senju Mokuton users until proven otherwise.

Now let me get to your reasoning:

1) I understand that Mokuton is a Kekkie Genkai, but Element based Kekkei Genkai so for have not shown exclusivity, save for Ice Release. You are saying that Lava Style has been used by several different ninja from different families, this alone shows that Kekkie Genkai are not always exclusive. So far the only KG that has been even said to be exclusive is Haku's Ice Release. So the question is why are you adding exclusivity where there is none. What makes you think Mokuton is limited only to the Senju?

2) Yamato is a clone of Hashirama, Hashirama had Mokuton, thus it stands to reason that so would Yamato. Yamato and Hashirama are pretty much the same person.

3) What does that have to do with anything?

4) Alot of things are possible, that doesnt make them true or likely. It is possible that Madara is really a good guy, It is possible that the Obito is playing a prank on everyone and they are already inside of Infinite Tsukuyomi, ALOT of things are possible. Now lets talk about Manga facts and not conjecture.

Traumatic events are counter parts to the Earth and Water Elements..... What? Why? You cant just say things without rhythm or reason and expect me to consider it.

And this is the part that makes me laugh, you said I invoked the Inductive Fallacy when it is actually YOU who invoked it LOL. Which is when you take a premise about a sample or individual and assume it to be true of the whole. For example:

The proportion Q of the sample has attribute A.
Therefore, the proportion Q of the population has attribute A.

In your terms:

Hashirama who is a Senju has Mokuton
Therefore, All Senju have Mokuton

LOL that was funny, but yah, thanks for disproving yourself? Your slipping man you used to be alot better than this. I take a break for a month or 2 and sht hits the fan x__X

...sigh. I thought you knew how to fully argument.

"Only Hashirama is the only Senju who has shown Mokuton abilities. Therefore, there is no other Senju with Mokuton abilities".

You based your logic in a fallacy, so I won't keep argumenting here, now you started to use ad hominem, and that's when we're finished. Sorry for losing your time.

 

[FearxDeath]

...sigh. I thought you knew how to fully argument.

"Only Hashirama is the only Senju who has shown Mokuton abilities. Therefore, there is no other Senju with Mokuton abilities".

You based your logic in a fallacy, so I won't keep argumenting here, now you started to use ad hominem, and that's when we're finished. Sorry for losing your time.

1) What are you talking about, your first sentence and 2nd sentence make no sense at all.

2) What fallacy are you talking about? And what ad hominem did I use? Do you even know what an ad hominem is? Ad hominem in latin translates to "Against the Man" or "To the person" and it is basically when you attack the person instead of addressing there argument.

Example:

If you said Burgerking makes the best burgers in town, and I said yah but Burger king runs a shady operation. Then that is an ad hominem, because instead of arguing the fact of whether or not Burgerking makes good burgers, I instead attack Burger king and by doing so lower there credibility.

Now when I did I do that to you? I never attacked you as a person... I mean I said you were slipping, but thats not a personal attack, that is just an observation I made based on your arguments, which so far has only been proven right.

Dont start something and then refuse to finish because you cant be bothered with it... Lets talk this out like men. I feel like I made a few very good counter points which you neglect to even consider.

"Only Hashirama is the only Senju who has shown Mokuton abilities. Therefore, there is no other Senju with Mokuton abilities".

Wait I think I know what you did here, you took the flow of the fallacy and twisted the flow of the argument to fit it. But here is the problem, the end of the fallacy flows with an affirmative.

"the proportion Q of the population has attribute A."

While the end of your twisted fallacy ends with an negative:

"there is no other Senju with Mokuton abilities"

This is where the confusion lies, and why again, one does not argue a negative, one only argues the affirmative.

Not to mention you further twist it by adding "Only" to it, and you twist the wording to make it make sense. But just by comparing the 2 fallacies side by side you can tell that they are not similar, again one argues the negative the other argues the affirmative.


The proportion Q of the sample has attribute A.
Therefore, the proportion Q of the population has attribute A.

-----------------------

Only Hashirama is the only Senju who has shown Mokuton abilities.
Therefore, there is no other Senju with Mokuton abilities

If the first sentence was correct it would not have the "Only" and thus would look alot like what I typed:

Hashirama has shown Mokuton abilities

Also the 2nd sentence implies a negative "There is no" when it should be an affirmative "there are" or "There is" or "They have" when you take that into affect you see your last sentence too begins to look like mine.

Therefore, the senju have Mokuton Abilities

No offense but do you see what I mean when I say your slipping?