And i notice you didn't explain how it is a weakness. Kakashi only cast that much bushin for show, they didn't move an inch. Naruto has shown to be able to spamm clone indefintly even kakashi admitted he can't use clone on the level of naruto durin Frs trainnin.
And what is the diff btw a clone being released and be forced to release (when attacked)? Either way the remainin chakra goes back to the original. And this in no way make sage mode naruto any weaker.
Talkin about chakra naruto w/ kyuubi should be number 1 on anybody list. He has been usin chakra heavily for 2 days w/o food or rest. And who told you 50 rasengan = 1 frs? Even after usin the first two rasenshuriken he still enough chakra to enter sage mode 3 more times makin 4 total.
Naruto has actually improved in using Shadow Clones while in Sage Mode, remember his battle against Kurama, he created ultiple shadow clones and those shadow clones used Oodama Rasengan Barrage. I think the reasons he does not use Kage Bunshin as much as when he was a kid is the same as what BlastIt has posted.
Then you just agreed w/ me lol meanin you conceded and how can you say naruto clone didn't do much in the war when 1/13 of his clone use planetry rasengan, 2 frs, has enough chakra to enter sage mode, enough chakra to form a bijuu rasengan, enough to make a chou odama rasengan. That is only 1/13. You must be jokin lol
This is such a common misconception that I will address it in my thread. But what you see in that scan, the ones following and proceeding it is not KCM. That is merely Naruto taking on some characteristics of the Kyuibi. Much like Fuu got wings from her bijuu. KCM is something different entirely.
From my point of view, now it was already stated in the manga that over time Kurama's and Naruto's Chakra merge together and become one, thats just the Natural proccess of being a Jinchuriki. But going into KCM mode requires Kurama and Naruto working together as one, not just his chakra. If that was the case Naruto would have been able to use it a long time ago. This may be complicated as I simplified my thread slightly to save space, I did say that KCM was merely achieved by Naruto merging his chakra with Kurama, but the proccess is slightly more complicated than that.
Ill do some thinking on this and update the thread once I have a better answer, but this is an interesting find as I didnt know about this before.
We'll just agree to disagree on the first one since that's largely opinion based. However, the second paragraph holds more merit. The paper argument would be true in relation to the Juubi were it not for what the Bijuu are. They are the composition of the Juubi but they are also "monsters" (Lack of a better word) or entities who share similarities with the Juubi (Most prominently the tails). Paper is made from Trees but its original composition has changed since it is completely different from before, in a different form.
But paper also shares similarities with tree's (Prominantly they both burn really well).
Let me say this a different way as I think my sarcastic, yet acurate, statement fell on death ears.
Can The Juubi make use of Nature energy? Yes, probably, Can Kurama? Probably as well although I doubt it, But that is irrelevant. Kurama being able to make use of Nature Energy is Not why I said Naruto could not use SM and TBM at the same time.
Then you just agreed w/ me lol meanin you conceded and how can you say naruto clone didn't do much in the war when 1/13 of his clone use planetry rasengan, 2 frs, has enough chakra to enter sage mode, enough chakra to form a bijuu rasengan, enough to make a chou odama rasengan. That is only 1/13. You must be jokin lol
Give scans of what you just said so I can make sure it is the same clone doing all of this. If you are right I will admit I am wrong and will edit thread to reflect that you have beaten me.
Actually, the real reason why Naruto hasn't been using his Shadow Clones as much as in Part 1 is that it is not necessary to do so. It indicates he is improving his Shinobis Skills. In Part 1, Naruto was not really skill in most of the areas. He used so many clones so many times in Part 1 to compensate for since:
- He wasn't that fast or reflexive.
- His Taijutsu was at least passable or average.
- The clones can distract an opponent or tire him/her out.
In other words, he used so many Shadow Clones because he was not proficient with some the Shinobi areas.
In Part 2 however, Naruto's Shurikenjutsu and Taijutsu skills have improved after his training with Jiraiya as stated in the Third Databook. Because his skills have increased, it's not truly necessary for him to spam an excessive amount of Shadow Clones. The only times he needed to used the Tajuu Kage Bushin was when he surrounded Pain, attack Kurama, and counters Madara's Mokuton.
Actually Naruto's Clone was given a portion of the Kyuubi's power to do this.
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That was the very same clone that did this, as he followed Dodai, Gaara, Temari, and Onoki to MAdara after the defeat of the Kages:
Clones? Who is talking about Clones... I am NOT talking about why Naruto does not use clones, I am talking about why Naruto no longer uses clones in conjuction with SM like he did against Pain.
Now I suppose your point is to say that Naurto has soo much chakra that losing 66% of his chakra is not a big deal to him, but I disagree, during the Great Ninja War did do alot but at the same time he also had breaks inbetween fights to regain his chakra. Running 100 miles in 1 day nonstop is alot different than running 100 miles over a week with breaks inbetween.
I appreciate the effort and research that you've put into this thread, but I disagree. Shadow clones do give their knowledge and chakra if they're destroyed by someone other than the caster as well.
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Another thing. You aren't saying Naruto gets weaker when he uses shadow clones are you? If so, shadow clones are duplicates with the original's chakra divided into several clones. This does not take away from the power of the user. If it did, Naruto wouldn't be using ransengan barrages, he'd just be using super powerful ransengans. The power between clones and the original are the same. However, the chakra pool is divided and the user, and the rate of exhaustion is multiplied on how many bodies the user has.
Last thing. When in sage mode, Naruto recovers and recharges his chakra while in sage mode.
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Then why does he pant when it goes away? I think that since he goes from huge amount of power, to lower amount of power, it feels like exhaustion, despite the fact that he actually recovers. Either that or the manga contradicted itself.
I appreciate the effort and research that you've put into this thread, but I disagree. Shadow clones do give their knowledge and chakra if they're destroyed by someone other than the caster as well.
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Another thing. You aren't saying Naruto gets weaker when he uses shadow clones are you? If so, shadow clones are duplicates with the original's chakra divided into several clones. This does not take away from the power of the user. If it did, Naruto wouldn't be using ransengan barrages, he'd just be using super powerful ransengans. The power between clones and the original are the same. However, the chakra pool is divided and the user, and the rate of exhaustion is multiplied on how many bodies the user has.
Last thing. When in sage mode, Naruto recovers and recharges his chakra while in sage mode.
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Then why does he pant when it goes away? I think that since he goes from huge amount of power, to lower amount of power, it feels like exhaustion, despite the fact that he actually recovers. Either that or the manga contradicted itself.
Wont bother with the 2nd and 3rd point as they dont pertain to my thread, I never said the clones were weaker, you would know if you fully read my thread, and I SM recharging chakra also has nothing to do with my thread.
In regards to the first point I never said he doesnt gain the clones knowledge when it is destroyed, this fact was even reinforced when Kakashi was training Naruto to use RasenShuriken, but he does not gain the chakra, which is standard for any kind of clone. Kakashi used a shadow clone vs Pain at the cost of alot of his chakra, but why didnt the chakra return after the clone was killed? We know using the shadow clone jutsu doesnt take up alot of chakra as kakashi was was able to use it after his fight with zaku when he was low on chakra.
Wont bother with the 2nd and 3rd point as they dont pertain to my thread, I never said the clones were weaker, you would know if you fully read my thread, and I SM recharging chakra also has nothing to do with my thread.
In regards to the first point I never said he doesnt gain the clones knowledge when it is destroyed, this fact was even reinforced when Kakashi was training Naruto to use RasenShuriken, but he does not gain the chakra, which is standard for any kind of clone. Kakashi used a shadow clone vs Pain at the cost of alot of his chakra, but why didnt the chakra return after the clone was killed? We know using the shadow clone jutsu doesnt take up alot of chakra as kakashi was was able to use it after his fight with zaku when he was low on chakra.
Well, the shadow clone in his fight with Pain is simple. It was a trap clone. If I were to guess its function I'd say that it converts all of the chakra inside it into lightning when destroyed. The reason why it didn't return any chakra is because it used it all up.
The 3rd point was to simply point out that, while his chakra would be divided, he would recover some of it as he went into sage mode.
Dude so far that seems on the ball but you may want to check Naruto's chakra levels again because if you remember he seems to be able to pull out more of his own chakra (not Kurama's) in dire times, Kakashi also stated that Naruto has 4x more chakra than he does and 100x with the kyuubi so all together that's 104x more chakra and also your shadow sage thing May now be fixed because if you think about it Kurama is collecting energy from his surrounding so he should technically be able to collect nature energy for sage mode and I'm telling you SMTBM will happen :L
Well, the shadow clone in his fight with Pain is simple. It was a trap clone. If I were to guess its function I'd say that it converts all of the chakra inside it into lightning when destroyed. The reason why it didn't return any chakra is because it used it all up.
The 3rd point was to simply point out that, while his chakra would be divided, he would recover some of it as he went into sage mode.
In this scan where kakashi fought off Pain he opened with a lighting-clone, afterwards Choiji's dad says it was an impressive feat but what about your chakra reserves, and kakashi responds by saying he has about half his chakra left.
Now we already know that Chidori doesnt consume alot of chakra, we have seen Kakashi use it far too many times without being drained of half of his chakra. So then why when mixing a lighting style with a clone does he suddenly lose HALF his entire chakra? Because when the clone was killed the chakra was not returned to him.
One thing to keep in mind is that Kakashi's lighting clone technique was a shadow clone combination with a lighting technique. We know that it is a shadow clone because of the puff of smoke left behind that symbolizes shadow clones. Here is a link backing up this fact: [
In this scan where kakashi fought off Pain he opened with a lighting-clone, afterwards Choiji's dad says it was an impressive feat but what about your chakra reserves, and kakashi responds by saying he has about half his chakra left.
Now we already know that Chidori doesnt consume alot of chakra, we have seen Kakashi use it far too many times without being drained of half of his chakra. So then why when mixing a lighting style with a clone does he suddenly lose HALF his entire chakra? Because when the clone was killed the chakra was not returned to him.
One thing to keep in mind is that Kakashi's lighting clone technique was a shadow clone combination with a lighting technique. We know that it is a shadow clone because of the puff of smoke left behind that symbolizes shadow clones. Here is a link backing up this fact: [
That is true but don't you think the properties of the jutsu would change as it then became not a shadow clone but a lightening clone? We all know chakra return is a trait only shadow clones have and this is a lightening clone which is different I believe, he had to use chakra to manipulate this clone in the way he needed to pull of the guise. That's probably what this is.
That is true but don't you think the properties of the jutsu would change as it then became not a shadow clone but a lightening clone? We all know chakra return is a trait only shadow clones have and this is a lightening clone which is different I believe, he had to use chakra to manipulate this clone in the way he needed to pull of the guise. That's probably what this is.
First off chakra return is not a feature only shadow clones have, it is a feature all clones have when you manually release the technique, much like what Pa had Naruto do in order to gain the senjutsu chakra, secondly you need to release the technique in order to gain chakra, else instead of pa asking naruto to release the technique he would have just destroyed the clone himself and saved time as Naruto was barely able to release the clone in time to survive pains attacks.
The technique Kakashi used was a lightning-shadow clone, similar to Orochimaru's Mud-Shadow Clone. these are merely combination techniques, with the rue of them being the fact that since Shadow clones have a physical substance, they can be used to house traps.
First off chakra return is not a feature only shadow clones have, it is a feature all clones have when you manually release the technique, much like what Pa had Naruto do in order to gain the senjutsu chakra, secondly you need to release the technique in order to gain chakra, else instead of pa asking naruto to release the technique he would have just destroyed the clone himself and saved time as Naruto was barely able to release the clone in time to survive pains attacks.
The technique Kakashi used was a lightning-shadow clone, similar to Orochimaru's Mud-Shadow Clone. these are merely combination techniques, with the rue of them being the fact that since Shadow clones have a physical substance, they can be used to house traps.
Oh, I thought I read somewhere that chakra return was a shadow clone only trait as well as intelligence *blah, blah* that is a fair point but also if you think about it if the clone is destroyed by Pa maybe not all of the Senjutsu chakra would have travelled, if the clone dies then it'd make sense that there would be an even smaller return in chakra so it'd be safer for Naruto to deactivate it himself correct?
Yes what you're saying is very plausible but then i'll ask you what actually is a mud clone then? woouldn't all of these clone variations simply be shadow clones with the users chakra type mixed in the fray? I still don't think that this is a shadow clone jutsu as it wouldn't be well you know, a shadow. I believe that when the jutsu is combined with the users element it is no longer the shadow clone, but instead the (Instert element here) clone, that's what water clones, lightening clones, wood clones are, etc.
In this scan where kakashi fought off Pain he opened with a lighting-clone, afterwards Choiji's dad says it was an impressive feat but what about your chakra reserves, and kakashi responds by saying he has about half his chakra left.
Now we already know that Chidori doesnt consume alot of chakra, we have seen Kakashi use it far too many times without being drained of half of his chakra. So then why when mixing a lighting style with a clone does he suddenly lose HALF his entire chakra? Because when the clone was killed the chakra was not returned to him.
One thing to keep in mind is that Kakashi's lighting clone technique was a shadow clone combination with a lighting technique. We know that it is a shadow clone because of the puff of smoke left behind that symbolizes shadow clones. Here is a link backing up this fact: [
It's not a normal shadow clone. Here's why the chakra didn't return. If you read your link carefully, you'll find that it reverts to its lighting form. This indicates that the clone is made of lightning chakra and that it's all used for the attack.
Chakra among clones however not always evenly split, u can choose how much power u want to share with a clone.
After killed a clone always gets information but not chakra, in fact i dont think users gets any back at all.
KCM+SM are possible imho but makes no sense since i find kyuubi chakra to be more powerful thus it would water down the quality.
