[Theory] [FEAR] How Strong are KKG's? (Analysis of the Sharingan)

[FearxDeath]

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It has been a while since I have created a new Thread. And yet I am getting some Static in my old ones [

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]. So I took the time one to write this thread that I hope will explain how I approach the topic of comparing certain KKG to others, and how I value KKG's as a whole.

Disclaimer​

Spoiler

*I Will start out using the Uchiha/Sharingan as main examples because that was the topic of the other thread. But this same logic can and should be appllied to ALL KKG's and Jutsu in general.*

Fallacy of Composition​

Spoiler

When trying to understand the strenght of the Uchiha the first thing that comes to mind would be people like... Itachi, Sasuke, Obito and Madara. And it should be because these people epitomize the strongest and brightest of the Uchiha.

But alot of people fall into a subtle trap when doing this, a trap called the Fallacy of Composition. Let me elaborate:

The fallacy of composition arises when one infers that something is true of the whole from the fact that it is true of some part of the whole (or even of every proper part). For example:

"This fragment of metal cannot be fractured with a hammer, therefore the machine of which it is a part cannot be fractured with a hammer." This is clearly fallacious, because many machines can be broken apart, without any of those parts being fracturable.

Let me reword the Fallacies example so you see what I am talking about:

A few Members of the Uchiha Clan are incredbly strong, therefore the Uchiha Clan as a whole is incredibly strong."

Itachi's Actions​

Spoiler

The Fallacy becomes even more evident when you compare said members to other members of the Clan. Lets start with Itachi:

Spoiler

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Above we see Itachi single handedly defeating 3 members of the Uchiha Police Force in 1 fell swoop. Now keep in mind that these are members of the Uchiha Police force and therefore aren't scrubs or fodder. This makes it evident that there is something strange going on here.

Itachi is NOT an example of the Average Uchiha, he is the example of a Shinobi at its highest. Blaming his skills on the fact that he is an Uchiha merely insults the work he put in to get his skills to where they are at.

To make a long story short: Itachi > Uchiha

A Different Fallacy​

Spoiler

Another way to look at the Fallacy of Composition is this way:

"A Few Sharingans users became incredibly strong, therefore ALL sharingan are incredibly strong"

But that isnt really true either. All Sharingans aren't incredibly strong as much as all sharingans have the potential to become incredibly strong.

When you think about it it makes sense, I mean Madara is really strong, but Hashirama is his match. But you might say, Hashirama has the best tool around which is Mokuton, and therefore Madara has the best tool around which is the Sharingan. So the Sharingan really is the best tool. Not so fast...

Remember a certain man by the name of Yamato who, although he also had Mokuton, couldnt even reach a fraction of Hashirama's greatness. And with that we can compare the 3 Uchiha that Itachi defeated, saying that even though they also possessed Sharingan's they too did not reach a fraction of Madara's strenght.

So you can say "The man makes the weapons, the weapons do not make the man." Madara and Hashirama are not great because of there KKG or Clans, they are great because they are truly great ninja who spent most of their time training and working hard to become stronger ninja. To turn around the blame their strength on the weapons they chose to you is an insult to the work they put in. Is Naruto a strong Ninja because he is an Uzumaki? Or is he strong because he trains until he cant move anymore and never gives up EVER. Just because the hard work is being done behind the scenes doesn't necessarily mean it isnt being done. This is best exemplified by this scan:

Spoiler

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Specifically these words "The Sharingan is just another Shinobi tool, a tool is only as powerful as the Ninja who uses it."

Sharingan - Rinnegan​

Spoiler

As far as the Sharingan goes alot of people seem to think that (Sharingan -> Rinnegan, Rinnegan = Sage of 6 Paths. There for Sharingan = Sage of 6 Paths) and thus the Sharingan is the best thing since sliced bread. But I dont agree with that flow of logic.

We have seen the Rinnegan beaten on 3 different occasions, the best example I can give is the fact that Naruto single handedly defeated Pain who possessed the Rinnegan. You can argue that the Rinnegan is really strong and that Pain didnt use it to its full potential, but then that leads back to the question of who could? A better ninja? Then if said better Ninja was fighting with an equally better Naruto would the fight not have the same results?

So we start to see the trend of the "Man making the Weapon" come around again.

The Rinnegan is only as strong as the person that wields it.
The Sharingan is only as strong as the person who wields it.
Mokuton is only as strong as the person who wields it.

Conclusion​

Spoiler

People are likely to be mistaken about what I am trying to accomplish with this thread. What I trying to convey is that the Sharingan, Mokuton, and other KKG's are great weapons. But as Black Zetsu put it "An expert with a Stone can beat a novice with a Shuriken." And so the reason they are able to make the Sharingan, Mokuton, etc... Look so amazing is because they are truly amazing Ninja that are bringing out the best of whatever weapon they chose to use. And we need to keep that in mind when judging the strength of said weapons. And when comparing said weapons to each other we need to keep ourselves from overestimating said weapons just because we see truly talented ninja doing amazing things with them.

When we start overestimating certain Clans and the KKG they carry we are only undervaluing the Ninja that makes said Clan/KKG look amazing and the work they put in the reach that level.

If that isnt enough to convince you then I leave you with Itachi's words:

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Spoiler

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If you dont play League of Legends or StarCraft you wont understand the below reference, although you may get the jist of it.

*Its like playing StarCraft or League of Legends, whatever Champion/Race destroyed you last game automatically becomes the Overpowered Champion/Race that you hate and want nerfed. We need to remember to sit back and remember that it isnt the Race/Champion that is good, rather the person using them.*

As always, Enjoy the Read!​

 

[The Necromancer]

This seems extremely obvious... :|

So naturally I agree. Not much else to say.

 

[itachi uchiha fiance]

it is obvious thing. I agree

 

[Ψ Veritas Ψ]

Nice read

 

[Kriss123]

But if two ninja at The same level, one has sharingan and The other has rinnegan. The last one would win?

 

[FearxDeath]

it is obvious thing. I agree

This seems extremely obvious... :|

So naturally I agree. Not much else to say.

Tell that to the guy ive been debating for the past week...

But if two ninja at The same level, one has sharingan and The other has rinnegan. The last one would win?

Yes but by a slim margin.

 

[valandil988]

Yeah I agree as well.

 

[juzumaki]

yh i think its like the hyuuga clan that had ranks like main family and branch family sasuke and itachi's father was the head of the clan so they would have been the main family similar to how the hinatas dad is the head of the clan and from what he has said in the past main family members are suppose to be stronger than branch family but neji was born from a twin so he had main family abilities

so sasuke and itachi are like elites of the clan

but i do agree with you only the user is capable of bringing out what its truly worth

 

[FearxDeath]

yh i think its like the hyuuga clan that had ranks like main family and branch family sasuke and itachi's father was the head of the clan so they would have been the main family similar to how the hinatas dad is the head of the clan and from what he has said in the past main family members are suppose to be stronger than branch family but neji was born from a twin so he had main family abilities

so sasuke and itachi are like elites of the clan

but i do agree with you only the user is capable of bringing out what its truly worth

I disagree with the logic you use there. The idea of the Uchiha having 2 different branches is imaginery, Itachi's father wasnt head of the Clan as much as he was Captain of the Police, and even if we do believe he is the elader of the clan why would we also jump to the conclusion that there clan is divided into 2 different branches like the Hyuga's are. Lastly if Neji was born from a Twin and twins share the same parents then why would one be in the lower branche and the other in the higher? You open a can of worms when you begin to try and prove things like this and in the end your claim dies the death of a 1000 qualifications.

With that said I am glad you agree with the conclusion of my thread, I find that most reasonable people will. But in regards to your last statement I would like to push that statement a little bit further. If it is the Ninja who brings out the true potential of the Weapon, then how is one to compare one Weapon to Another? This entire thread sprouted from a debate between the Byakugan and the Sharingan, and the person I was debating against kept bringing up Obito and Madara and how strong they were because of the Sharingan, and so I made this thread to show that they are strong because they are strong not because of the Sharingan, which is merely a weapon they use.

If you would be so find, I would like you to follow the

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to the thread that this discussion is taking place so I can get your 2 cents on things.

 

[juzumaki]

I disagree with the logic you use there. The idea of the Uchiha having 2 different branches is imaginery, Itachi's father wasnt head of the Clan as much as he was Captain of the Police, and even if we do believe he is the elader of the clan why would we also jump to the conclusion that there clan is divided into 2 different branches like the Hyuga's are. Lastly if Neji was born from a Twin and twins share the same parents then why would one be in the lower branche and the other in the higher? You open a can of worms when you begin to try and prove things like this and in the end your claim dies the death of a 1000 qualifications.

With that said I am glad you agree with the conclusion of my thread, I find that most reasonable people will. But in regards to your last statement I would like to push that statement a little bit further. If it is the Ninja who brings out the true potential of the Weapon, then how is one to compare one Weapon to Another? This entire thread sprouted from a debate between the Byakugan and the Sharingan, and the person I was debating against kept bringing up Obito and Madara and how strong they were because of the Sharingan, and so I made this thread to show that they are strong because they are strong not because of the Sharingan, which is merely a weapon they use.

If you would be so find, I would like you to follow the

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to the thread that this discussion is taking place so I can get your 2 cents on things.

you missed the point the point of that was to show that not all uchiha in clan would have a sharingan on the same level as sasuke itachi madara i used hyuuga branch system as an example of how the main family had superior styles compared to the branch but in nejis case he was born from a twin meaning he carries the blood of the main family he's there only because his father came out second

also sasukes father being head of the uchiha police force still counts as him being a leader just like how madaras father was a leader so blood relation does help in this manga

strong parent strong child apparently that just how it is in this manga

 

[Mr Hiru]

I'll put everything I think about this thread in one word:

Respects.

Thanks for not being biased.

 

[valandil988]

you missed the point the point of that was to show that not all uchiha in clan would have a sharingan on the same level as sasuke itachi madara i used hyuuga branch system as an example of how the main family had superior styles compared to the branch but in nejis case he was born from a twin meaning he carries the blood of the main family he's there only because his father came out second

also sasukes father being head of the uchiha police force still counts as him being a leader just like how madaras father was a leader so blood relation does help in this manga

strong parent strong child apparently that just how it is in this manga

Wow way to go about stinking of master race ideology.

Obviously thats NOT how it works, by that theory Hashirama's children should have been monsters. The fact we havent heard of them means they were either simple above average or fodders. Tsunade hardly holds a candle to Hashirama. Ergo your wrong.

Sasuke and Itachi were both driven and challenged to be the strongest and hence became strong out of necessity. Naruto is also an example of this, he managed to master sage mode & Rasengan at accelerated rates while being rather less than full of talent.

So your wrong the manga does not follow that theme of bloodlines and blood superiority.

 

[adeshina365]

The man makes the weapon, the weapon doesn't make the man.

 

[juzumaki]

Wow way to go about stinking of master race ideology.

Obviously thats NOT how it works, by that theory Hashirama's children should have been monsters. The fact we havent heard of them means they were either simple above average or fodders. Tsunade hardly holds a candle to Hashirama. Ergo your wrong.

Sasuke and Itachi were both driven and challenged to be the strongest and hence became strong out of necessity. Naruto is also an example of this, he managed to master sage mode & Rasengan at accelerated rates while being rather less than full of talent.

So your wrong the manga does not follow that theme of bloodlines and blood superiority.

if they werent on top they just chose a different path or died
notice i said it kinda helps

 

[BigGuns Reloaded]

unfortunately for you hash and tobi happen to be sons of the clan leader and are the strongest in the clan so being privileged has much to do with strength same for mad and izuna /itachi and sasuke

tsunade is a beast regardless of her not "holding a candle to hashirama" but fact of the matter she is his grand daughter so again being privileged due to lineage contributes to her strength

i do agree with u as a whole

 

[FearxDeath]

you missed the point the point of that was to show that not all uchiha in clan would have a sharingan on the same level as sasuke itachi madara i used hyuuga branch system as an example of how the main family had superior styles compared to the branch but in nejis case he was born from a twin meaning he carries the blood of the main family he's there only because his father came out second

also sasukes father being head of the uchiha police force still counts as him being a leader just like how madaras father was a leader so blood relation does help in this manga

strong parent strong child apparently that just how it is in this manga

What I said was that "There is no reason to believe that the Uchiha has a 2 Branch System" and therefore No reason to believe that " Not all Uchiha in the clan would have a sharingan on the same level as..." Your only attempt to prove this is by saying "Sasuke's Father was the Leader (He was actually just the Police Captain)" but that does not mean that the Clan was part of a 2 Branch system in which Sasuke's Family were part of the higher branch and thus a stronger Sharingan.

Now you say that Neji has the Blood of the first branch, where did he get it from? His father. This would mean that Neji's father was born into the Main branch. So then why was he a part of the Side Branch? Especially seeing that his brother was not only a member of the Main branch but is the Leader. So here we see that Strenght and Blood really have nothing to do with being a part of the Main/Side Branch, but rather some other system that would allow for someone with the Blood of the Main Branch to still be place in the Side Branch. Which would mean that it is a common practice for Main branch members to end up in the Side Branch. Which again goes against your theory of 1 Branch being stronger than the other Blood-wise because even if there was a difference to start with it would have been diluted by the fact that Main branch members are constantly being place in the side branch.

unfortunately for you hash and tobi happen to be sons of the clan leader and are the strongest in the clan so being privileged has much to do with strength same for mad and izuna /itachi and sasuke

tsunade is a beast regardless of her not "holding a candle to hashirama" but fact of the matter she is his grand daughter so again being privileged due to lineage contributes to her strength

i do agree with u as a whole

I dont think I agree with your first 2 paragraphs, I think this "coincedence?" is better explained by a Pseudo case of 1st Child syndrome, (Google the term). Where the same level of expectations that cause most first borns to become strong leaders in regards to careers causes the sons and daughters of powerful men to become strong in order to live up to their names. This is best exemplified by the fact that Madara shows distain towards Tsunade for not being stronger, showing that even though she is strong she still has not reached his expectations.

 

[grenwood]

I agree with you on the point when it comes to the potential of sharing an and rinnegan and that just having it doesn't make you stronger than the average shinobi. You should change the title of your thread though. The end and
The rinnegan and mokuton seem to be by far the best kkg. And by that I don't mean a user of any other kkg is incapable of surpassing an ems rinnegan or mokuton user. If we look at Hashirama's and his mokuton abilities it seems that the power of his mokuton came from his insane chakra reserves coupled with sage mode. By that logic someone with insane chakra levels and sage mode and the experience of Hashirama's could be just as strong or stronger. The difference that makes me think ems rinnegan and mokuton are better and stronger kkg is because of their Ties to bijuu which other kkg clearly don't have. You can also argue that Hashirama's chakra levels are tied to hagoromo in which case it would be difficult for users of other kkg to have. The closest we have gotten to that lol of chakra in a kkg user would be rossi the 4 tails jinuriki. And ei was said to have bijuu level chakra. In both of those cases despite being born with godly levels of chakra and being a jinuriki neither of them came close to even a non sm Hashirama. Only naruto with 50 percent kurama and sm came close and he doesn't have a kkg. And he was an you make with already huge chakra reserves to get an accurate comparison between mokuton and other kkg we would need Hashirama's level chakra in those kkg users. And I don't think we can compare the higher forms if sharingan and rinnegan because the closest thing to those is byakugan which clearly isn't on their level. So yes users of other kkg can become stronger and can be better shinobi but that doesn't necessarily make their kkg better or stronger. And yes there u s a ton of weak Uchiha.

 

[FearxDeath]

I agree with you on the point when it comes to the potential of sharing an and rinnegan and that just having it doesn't make you stronger than the average shinobi. You should change the title of your thread though. The end and
The rinnegan and mokuton seem to be by far the best kkg. And by that I don't mean a user of any other kkg is incapable of surpassing an ems rinnegan or mokuton user. If we look at Hashirama's and his mokuton abilities it seems that the power of his mokuton came from his insane chakra reserves coupled with sage mode. By that logic someone with insane chakra levels and sage mode and the experience of Hashirama's could be just as strong or stronger. The difference that makes me think ems rinnegan and mokuton are better and stronger kkg is because of their Ties to bijuu which other kkg clearly don't have.

You can also argue that Hashirama's chakra levels are tied to hagoromo in which case it would be difficult for users of other kkg to have. The closest we have gotten to that lol of chakra in a kkg user would be rossi the 4 tails jinuriki. And ei was said to have bijuu level chakra. In both of those cases despite being born with godly levels of chakra and being a jinuriki neither of them came close to even a non sm Hashirama. Only naruto with 50 percent kurama and sm came close and he doesn't have a kkg. And he was an you make with already huge chakra reserves to get an accurate comparison between mokuton and other kkg we would need Hashirama's level chakra in those kkg users. And I don't think we can compare the higher forms if sharingan and rinnegan because the closest thing to those is byakugan which clearly isn't on their level. So yes users of other kkg can become stronger and can be better shinobi but that doesn't necessarily make their kkg better or stronger. And yes there u s a ton of weak Uchiha.

I got threw half of this and started skimming through it, im sorry but the wall of text is so off putting. The least you could do is divide it into paragraphs to help seperate your thoughts etc.. Like I did for you.

With that said, even though your disagreeing in a sense, I can appreciate it. I mean even I can appreciate the point being made when someone says that even though the Man makes the weapons, some weapons truly are better than others. But the real questoin here is the margin between them. I can accept that in a complete stalemate that the person with the Rinnegan would have a slight advantage. Not a huge advantage but a slight one, comparable to Jiraiya getting the Intel of Pain back to the Village to help them prepare.

But ofcourse this is the Rinnegan, I believe the Rinnegan is the only special occasion here. All other KKG's from Ice release to the Sharingan are more or less on an equal playing ground with the determining factor being the Ninja wielding the KKG.

 

[FearxDeath]

I agree with you on the point when it comes to the potential of sharing an and rinnegan and that just having it doesn't make you stronger than the average shinobi. You should change the title of your thread though. The end and
The rinnegan and mokuton seem to be by far the best kkg. And by that I don't mean a user of any other kkg is incapable of surpassing an ems rinnegan or mokuton user. If we look at Hashirama's and his mokuton abilities it seems that the power of his mokuton came from his insane chakra reserves coupled with sage mode. By that logic someone with insane chakra levels and sage mode and the experience of Hashirama's could be just as strong or stronger. The difference that makes me think ems rinnegan and mokuton are better and stronger kkg is because of their Ties to bijuu which other kkg clearly don't have.

You can also argue that Hashirama's chakra levels are tied to hagoromo in which case it would be difficult for users of other kkg to have. The closest we have gotten to that lol of chakra in a kkg user would be rossi the 4 tails jinuriki. And ei was said to have bijuu level chakra. In both of those cases despite being born with godly levels of chakra and being a jinuriki neither of them came close to even a non sm Hashirama. Only naruto with 50 percent kurama and sm came close and he doesn't have a kkg. And he was an you make with already huge chakra reserves to get an accurate comparison between mokuton and other kkg we would need Hashirama's level chakra in those kkg users. And I don't think we can compare the higher forms if sharingan and rinnegan because the closest thing to those is byakugan which clearly isn't on their level. So yes users of other kkg can become stronger and can be better shinobi but that doesn't necessarily make their kkg better or stronger. And yes there u s a ton of weak Uchiha.

I got threw half of this and started skimming through it, im sorry but the wall of text is so off putting. The least you could do is divide it into paragraphs to help seperate your thoughts etc.. Like I did for you.

With that said, even though your disagreeing in a sense, I can appreciate it. I mean even I can appreciate the point being made when someone says that even though the Man makes the weapons, some weapons truly are better than others. But the real questoin here is the margin between them. I can accept that in a complete stalemate that the person with the Rinnegan would have a slight advantage. Not a huge advantage but a slight one, comparable to Jiraiya getting the Intel of Pain back to the Village to help them prepare.

But ofcourse this is the Rinnegan, I believe the Rinnegan is the only special occasion here. All other KKG's from Ice release to the Sharingan are more or less on an equal playing ground with the determining factor being the Ninja wielding the KKG.

 

[flyboyissac]

Wait don't everyone know this?