[FEAR] Danzo's Deceit; Concealed Coup de'tat

[FearxDeath]

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A while ago I posted a thread, one of my favorites, where I expound on

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and, to my knowledge, make a case that not only was he working for Danzo but that he attempted to destroy Konoha/Kill Hiruzen under Danzo's orders.

But after some thought on some recent events I think I may have drastically under estimated Danzo. But before I get into that I just want to say that if you found my thread about Orochimaru a little hard to swallow, then you may end up choking on what I am about to reveal. If you havent read the thread on Orochimaru I highly suggest that you do,

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Danzo's Deceit PT 1​

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The story I am going to tell starts here:

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Now this scan is really interesting to me for 2 reasons... Firstly why is Obito there and Why is he pretending to harbor a grudge against Konoha? He has no reason to... This sort of reminds me of someone else I may have talked about before that pretended to have a grudge against Konoha for no real reason... Furthermore the only person we know that had anything to gain from the attack on the Uchiha was..

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Heck he was the one who pressured Itachi into attacking the village in the first place.

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Wait a minute.. As a matter of fact look at this:

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Danzo attacked and stole Shishui's eye when he found out he planned on using his MS to stop the Coup De'Tat? Wouldnt that have been the perfect solution to the fighting?

Wait this is crazy talk, I mean just because Obito does one sketchy thing in the manga doesnt necessarily mean that he is plotting with Danzo right? Wait a minute...

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If the Akatsuki were trying to collect all of the tailed beasts... then why would Obito seemingly give it to Konoha in a attempt to use it to destroy Konoha.. An attack like that would directly go against what he is trying to accomplish wouldnt it? Wait a second... wasnt their someone who wanted Konoha destroyed in order to make himself the Hokage?

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Danzo's Deceit PT 2​

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So based on the previous section we can see that that makes 2 times that Obito has attacked the village for no real reason, While Danzo on the otherhand had something to gain both times... Come to think of it, their is another thing that I thought was strange...

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Pain found out that Naruto was not in Konoha but was at the Toad Mountain, so here is where you would think he would leave the village to go get Naruto which was the reason he came to the village in the first place... But instead.

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He decides to destroy Konoha, for no reason other than to "Cause Pain?"... But that doesnt seem like a good reason especially when risking so much just to destroy a village that means nothing in the long run right?

Now I am a firm believer that everything happens for a reason. If Pain destroys a village for no real reason, then their is a real reason, we just havent found it yet... But let assume for the sake of argument that he didnt do it of his own free will but was spurred to do it by someone else.

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Is it possible that Obito once again was responsible for the destruction of Konoha? The same destruction which resulted in Danzo being elected Hokage.

The evidence does seem to support such a Theory, but before we jump to any further conclusions we have to figure out Obito's motive, because so far Danzo has been the only person getting anything out of this supposed partnership. then again something else struck me as strange.

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Obito was at the summit. Now at first I thought he was just watching over Sasuke, but then a few chapters later when Naruto and Team 7 is fighting and about to capture Sasuke White zetsu comes up and calls Obito to have him help them.

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Why would he watch Sasuke as he battled the Kage but not a few moments after when he is weakened after fighting the Kage and about to attack his old team. (Kakashi, Naruto and Sakura) The answer is simple, he was never watching Sasuke, Sasuke was never a part of his plan, merely a tool he used to attack Danzo and then someone he helped in the hopes that he could be used later on. But the fact that Sasuke is currently fighting against Obito should show that there was no real place for Sasuke in Obito's plans.

So if Sasuke was such an after thought we must beg the question of why Obito so at the Summit in the first place? Now another option is that he went there to declare war at the Kage Summit and he just happened to get there in time to save Sasuke. But him going their to declare war has always sounded strange to me.

So then why was he there?

Danzo's Deceit PT 3​

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My Answer:

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I believe Danzo may have been playing a dangerous game. Obito and Danzo struck a truce, Obito would orcastrate events which would lead him to becoming the Hokage and then the Leader of the Shinobi Alliance, Once Danzo became the Leader of the Shinobi Alliance Danzo would then help Obito complete his plans or perhaps he would give Obito Shishui's Eye in exchange for the help. This isnt to farfetched as Obito did masquerade as the 3rd Mizukage for quite some time, so it stands to reason that he would also try to attain some power within Konoha as well by being able to control the Hokage.

That is the plan I believe that they had, whether or not either party had alterior motives is beyond me. But Danzo failed, he got caught and was not able to become the leader of the Shinobi Alliance, and with Danzo no longer being useful Obito decided to take Shishui's eye from him. Rather than do it himself and risk being hurt he took advantage of the fact that Sasuke was at the Kage Summit and saved him in order to use him to defeat or at the very least weaken Danzo.

And so they met:

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But Danzo was one step ahead:

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Conclusion​

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Without a doubt some of you are rolling your eyes and cracking your knuckles getting ready to tear me a new one just for thinking of something like this. But think about it this way:

1) Why did Obito help Itachi destroy the Uchiha? There is no good reason for this.
2) Why did Obito attack Konoha with the 9 Tails? Once again there is no good reason for this and this is actually counter productive to his plan.
3) Why did Pain destroy the leaf village after he found out that Naruto wasnt there.
4) Why was he at the Kage Summit.

These are 3 acts of violence towards the Leaf village made by Obito that are completely without merit or reason. You must also consider that:

1) Obito showed great interest in Shishui's Eye.
2) Obito has shown an interest in controlling those in power IE the 3rd Mizukage, so it stands to reason that he would help someone attain power in order to control said power, IE letting Nagato lead the Akatsuki.
3) Obito in my opinion regards Danzo in a formal/personal sense. He always states his name never using words like "You" or "He".

And last but not least on must Question where Danzo was during all of these events? Each time the Hokage and other notable ninja have always been on the scene during the battle for Konoha. But Danzo is always conveniantly not there. Even in the scan where he kills the Toad, which is during Pains attack on Konoha, we see him kill the toad thus we KNOW he was in the village. But he doesnt do a thing to help and is unscathed during Pains destruction of Konoha. And the text near his face after he kills the Toad.. "Danzo's Secret Plot"

Now it is not my intention to turn skeptics into believers, my soul goal here is to introduce the possibility that Danzo and Obito may have been working together.

UPDATE #1​

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I was going over some of the Manga Chapters recently and discovered another weird occurance. What we see in the 5 Kage Summit, Danzo has just been exposed for using Shishui's Sharingan and is under alot of fire at the moment. As soon as Raikage screams out "You Bastard" White Zetsu pops up out of nowhere and anounces that Sasuke is at the Summit and prompts everyone to go after him... If this find doesnt clinche my case then I dont know what does.

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Enjoy the Read​

 

[ninja2784]

very interesting read.

 

[Mr Hiru]

Agreed. I don't have anything to add or to counter... it makes sense.

 

[marijuanna]

very interesting read.

there is something in the uchiha massacre, but all you said about the kage summit doesnt make sense, Obito wanted sasuke, and naruto was just a pawn to strenghen sasuke, and he went there to take the kage's hostage

 

[FearxDeath]

there is something in the uchiha massacre, but all you said about the kage summit doesnt make sense, Obito wanted sasuke, and naruto was just a pawn to strenghen sasuke, and he went there to take the kage's hostage

Why did Obito want Sasuke?

 

[Byron123]

I agree with your theory overall but I disagree as for the the fact that Obito couldn't have had his own reasons for attacking Konoha other than getting Danzo's help and therefore his power in the governement. First of all, by attacking Konoha in the first place he was able to turn the village against the Uchiha since they considered them prime suspects for this action. Possibly, the Uchiha can counter the moon eye plan because of their eyes and so it would be profitable to take them out. Other than that, they were also elite ninjas so by taking them out, he landed a critical impact in Konoha's power when the time would come for him to start his war. He also gained a lot of sharingan which is always a plus considering his use of forbidden jutsu. Therefore, he did have reasons to help Itachi with the massacre. You can't tell that Pain didn't have no reason for destroying Konoha, showing Pain was a preety good but mostly he annihillated one of the most powerful countries and that's always something useful. Besides, if Pain's attack was a bit stronger, no one would have survived and therefore there wouldn't be anything for Danzo to control, plus he would be any easy target for the other countries. Also, you can't say that Sasuke wasn't in his plans. Maybe not directly but the fact that he had found a powerful ally for some time was useful. It was profitable to him, there would be no reason to discard him along as he was agreeing with his decisions.

 

[FearxDeath]

I agree with your theory overall but I disagree as for the the fact that Obito couldn't have had his own reasons for attacking Konoha other than getting Danzo's help and therefore his power in the governement. First of all, by attacking Konoha in the first place he was able to turn the village against the Uchiha since they considered them prime suspects for this action. Possibly, the Uchiha can counter the moon eye plan because of their eyes and so it would be profitable to take them out. Other than that, they were also elite ninjas so by taking them out, he landed a critical impact in Konoha's power when the time would come for him to start his war. He also gained a lot of sharingan which is always a plus considering his use of forbidden jutsu. Therefore, he did have reasons to help Itachi with the massacre. You can't tell that Pain didn't have no reason for destroying Konoha, showing Pain was a preety good but mostly he annihillated one of the most powerful countries and that's always something useful. Besides, if Pain's attack was a bit stronger, no one would have survived and therefore there wouldn't be anything for Danzo to control, plus he would be any easy target for the other countries. Also, you can't say that Sasuke wasn't in his plans. Maybe not directly but the fact that he had found a powerful ally for some time was useful. It was profitable to him, there would be no reason to discard him along as he was agreeing with his decisions.

Few things:

1) Possibly the Uchiha could counter the Eye of the Moon plan with their eyes? What?

2) Yes, Elite ninja who all managed to be killed by Itachi and Him without putting up much of a fight? On top of which he solely focused on Konoha because we all know none of the other villages had Elite Ninja?

3) Use of what Forbidden Jutsu, throughout the Manga he has only used Izangi once, on top of which Madara had plenty of spare Sharingans and thus Obito would have access to those upon Madara's death.

To some this up I never said he didnt have any other reasons. I chose my words very very carefully. I said he had no other "good" reasons for doing so. The reasons you list above are possible, but they are no good reasons, merely unlikely possibilities. In light of his actions or lack of actions afterwards.

1) I recommend you Wiki Nagato and his plan for taking over the world. Its pretty detailed and it was close to coming to fruition. Basically he (The Akatsuki) would take jobs as mercenaries for other towns and villages at cost far cheaper than the Shinobi Villages. Over time the Shinobi Villages would fall apart due to lack of funds because missions are a main source of income from them. Once gone the Akatsuki would be the only with power and would then take over with their being no one to challenge them. Its actually ingeniuos, and destroying Konoha is not a part of that plan. You can always argue that he destroyed them becasuse they could have done something or this or that... But the fact is he just wiped the floor with the villages most power ninja and was more or less un scathed, I doubt he saw them as a threat. Especially enough of a threat to shorten his life span destroying the village. So why was destroying Konoha useful?

2) You say that if Pains attack was a little stronger no one would have survived, thus leaving no one for Danzo to control, I ask you why it wasnt a little stronger?

3) You also say that they were an easy target for other countries, but we KNOW that pain destroyed the village and we KNOW that no other countries will took advantage of that, so why bring it up?

4) First you disagree with Sasuke not being a part of his plans, then you say maybe not directly but atleast he made an ally. There are only 2 things, either Sasuke was a part of his plans or he wasnt. If your saying he was I am open to hear why, if not then dont bring up the issue. In my thread I already state that Obito took advantage of Sasuke and used him for his purposes, I dont know why you are repeating this to me as a means to disagree with me..

I am happy you agree with me to a certain extent but I cant help but feel that your qualms with my thread are rooted in you trying to be disagreeable for the sake of being disagreeable. Everything you have said feel uncconvincing and lacking. And a wise man one said "100 bad arguments dont add up to equal 1 good argument"

 

[Byron123]

Few things:

1) Possibly the Uchiha could counter the Eye of the Moon plan with their eyes? What?

2) Yes, Elite ninja who all managed to be killed by Itachi and Him without putting up much of a fight? On top of which he solely focused on Konoha because we all know none of the other villages had Elite Ninja?

3) Use of what Forbidden Jutsu, throughout the Manga he has only used Izangi once, on top of which Madara had plenty of spare Sharingans and thus Obito would have access to those upon Madara's death.

To some this up I never said he didnt have any other reasons. I chose my words very very carefully. I said he had no other "good" reasons for doing so. The reasons you list above are possible, but they are no good reasons, merely unlikely possibilities. In light of his actions or lack of actions afterwards.

1) I recommend you Wiki Nagato and his plan for taking over the world. Its pretty detailed and it was close to coming to fruition. Basically he (The Akatsuki) would take jobs as mercenaries for other towns and villages at cost far cheaper than the Shinobi Villages. Over time the Shinobi Villages would fall apart due to lack of funds because missions are a main source of income from them. Once gone the Akatsuki would be the only with power and would then take over with their being no one to challenge them. Its actually ingeniuos, and destroying Konoha is not a part of that plan. You can always argue that he destroyed them becasuse they could have done something or this or that... But the fact is he just wiped the floor with the villages most power ninja and was more or less un scathed, I doubt he saw them as a threat. Especially enough of a threat to shorten his life span destroying the village. So why was destroying Konoha useful?

2) You say that if Pains attack was a little stronger no one would have survived, thus leaving no one for Danzo to control, I ask you why it wasnt a little stronger?

3) You also say that they were an easy target for other countries, but we KNOW that pain destroyed the village and we KNOW that no other countries will took advantage of that, so why bring it up?

4) First you disagree with Sasuke not being a part of his plans, then you say maybe not directly but atleast he made an ally. There are only 2 things, either Sasuke was a part of his plans or he wasnt. If your saying he was I am open to hear why, if not then dont bring up the issue. In my thread I already state that Obito took advantage of Sasuke and used him for his purposes, I dont know why you are repeating this to me as a means to disagree with me..

I am happy you agree with me to a certain extent but I cant help but feel that your qualms with my thread are rooted in you trying to be disagreeable for the sake of being disagreeable. Everything you have said feel uncconvincing and lacking. And a wise man one said "100 bad arguments dont add up to equal 1 good argument"

1. Yeah it is a possibility, I can't say that I can base it on hard evidence but since the moon eye plan is a genjutsu, those with sharingan maybe, and just maybe could have stayed unnafected and tried to stop it. After all, it's a genjutsu that it's based on the dojutsu from which sharingan has derived (Juubi's eye).

2. They were killed so easily as you described because they were caught off guard. It's not like they turned into ashes by mere power. It was more like a commando's execution. For what reason do you think that Minato was considered so strong? It's not about him able to use powerful leysers but about him being able to land meaningful hits with his kunais and ofc with his rasengan. Also, it's not like you presented it; that he chose out of the 5 big countries this one just on a whim. You say that Madara had many sharingan but I don't ever remember anyone mentioning that he was the one who gathered all these sharingans. Who tells you that Obito and Danzo after teaming up, didn't agree on killing the Uchiha and then split the eyes of the dead in half so they could both get benefitted? Yes Izanagi is the only kenjutsu that Obito has used and it's enough. What tells that he wouldn't want to have more eyes so that he could use it without having to worry about finding replacements?

3. No one has ever said that Nagato's attack (shinra tensei specifically) had a specific logic behind it. It can be very well interpretted as his revenge for loosing his parents by konoha shinobi as well as losing Yahiko because of the help Danzo offered to Hanzo. His actions were moved out of his personnal grudge he had hold all these years for the misery this village had caused him.

4. Who ever said that no one would take advantage of the destroyed Konoha? Tha's just a baseless assumption of yours. At that time when the Kage summit took place, they weren't friendly at all one towards the others and the only reason they agreed on teaming up was because of the greater threat Akatsuki opposed to them as well as having seen first hand what the formers were capable of since it only took one member of the Akatsuki to destroy one of the most powerful countries. It's not like they were all friends like you make it sound like.

5. Pain's attack didn't even have to be any stronger now that I think of it. Very very few survived from his attack and if he hadn't revived all of them, Danzo's plan would have been a failure.

6. As for Sasuke it's not like he left him after killing Danzo because he didn't care for him anymore as you implied first because he did what he wanted and had no further use of him. He simply wasn't aware of him being in danger and that's why Zetsu informed him. Obito had left the battlefield immediately after Danzo killed himself, he had no idea about team 7's arrival. It's not like he decided at that moment to take Sasuke with him. Maybe he was in his plans after all or at least came to his plans after Itachi's death. Let's not forget that Obito took immediately care of him in order to affect him the most while he was still weak and fragile. He might have been therefore in his plans all along after he Nagato died. Let's not forget that he said that needed someone to synchronise with the gedo mazo.

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So you see I have many arguments and quite logical to tell you truth. You say that they weren't convincing but the fact is, as I remember from a previous conversation we had on another topic, that you jumped immediately into conclusions as to what I'm thinking and immedately you disproved them based on your opinions, which on some cases are just your assumptions such as the unwillingness of the other countries to attack Konoha while it was weak or the fact that Nagato didn't have any personnal reasons for destroying Konoha as well as the fact that no one has ever said that Obito got all these eyes from Madara rather than him being the one who gathered them by the dead uchiha of the massacre.

 

[FearxDeath]

1. Yeah it is a possibility, I can't say that I can base it on hard evidence but since the moon eye plan is a genjutsu, those with sharingan maybe, and just maybe could have stayed unnafected and tried to stop it. After all, it's a genjutsu that it's based on the dojutsu from which sharingan has derived (Juubi's eye).

2. They were killed so easily as you described because they were caught off guard. It's not like they turned into ashes by mere power. It was more like a commando's execution. For what reason do you think that Minato was considered so strong? It's not about him able to use powerful leysers but about him being able to land meaningful hits with his kunais and ofc with his rasengan. Also, it's not like you presented it; that he chose out of the 5 big countries this one just on a whim. You say that Madara had many sharingan but I don't ever remember anyone mentioning that he was the one who gathered all these sharingans. Who tells you that Obito and Danzo after teaming up, didn't agree on killing the Uchiha and then split the eyes of the dead in half so they could both get benefitted? Yes Izanagi is the only kenjutsu that Obito has used and it's enough. What tells that he wouldn't want to have more eyes so that he could use it without having to worry about finding replacements?

3. No one has ever said that Nagato's attack (shinra tensei specifically) had a specific logic behind it. It can be very well interpretted as his revenge for loosing his parents by konoha shinobi as well as losing Yahiko because of the help Danzo offered to Hanzo. His actions were moved out of his personnal grudge he had hold all these years for the misery this village had caused him.

4. Who ever said that no one would take advantage of the destroyed Konoha? Tha's just a baseless assumption of yours. At that time when the Kage summit took place, they weren't friendly at all one towards the others and the only reason they agreed on teaming up was because of the greater threat Akatsuki opposed to them as well as having seen first hand what the formers were capable of since it only took one member of the Akatsuki to destroy one of the most powerful countries. It's not like they were all friends like you make it sound like.

5. Pain's attack didn't even have to be any stronger now that I think of it. Very very few survived from his attack and if he hadn't revived all of them, Danzo's plan would have been a failure.

6. As for Sasuke it's not like he left him after killing Danzo because he didn't care for him anymore as you implied first because he did what he wanted and had no further use of him. He simply wasn't aware of him being in danger and that's why Zetsu informed him. Obito had left the battlefield immediately after Danzo killed himself, he had no idea about team 7's arrival. It's not like he decided at that moment to take Sasuke with him. Maybe he was in his plans after all or at least came to his plans after Itachi's death. Let's not forget that Obito took immediately care of him in order to affect him the most while he was still weak and fragile. He might have been therefore in his plans all along after he Nagato died. Let's not forget that he said that needed someone to synchronise with the gedo mazo.

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So you see I have many arguments and quite logical to tell you truth. You say that they weren't convincing but the fact is, as I remember from a previous conversation we had on another topic, that you jumped immediately into conclusions as to what I'm thinking and immedately you disproved them based on your opinions, which on some cases are just your assumptions such as the unwillingness of the other countries to attack Konoha while it was weak or the fact that Nagato didn't have any personnal reasons for destroying Konoha as well as the fact that no one has ever said that Obito got all these eyes from Madara rather than him being the one who gathered them by the dead uchiha of the massacre.

Look man no offense but I wont be responding to you anymore, in context of this debate, I have this thing where I dont like arguing conjecture as logic is is far too subjective nowadays.

Not to be condescending but I believe that you can lead a horse to water but you cant make it drink. And based on the tone of the argument I dont think you will yield your position no matter what way i rationalize things. And so I leave you with a qoute from the conclusion of my thread.

Now it is not my intention to turn skeptics into believers, my soul goal here is to introduce the possibility that Danzo and Obito may have been working together.

If we both accept this as a possibility then I see no reason to debate on the road that gets us there.

Thanks for the reply _@:

 

[Byron123]

Look man no offense but I wont be responding to you anymore, in context of this debate, I have this thing where I dont like arguing conjecture as logic is is far too subjective nowadays.

Not to be condescending but I believe that you can lead a horse to water but you cant make it drink. And based on the tone of the argument I dont think you will yield your position no matter what way i rationalize things. And so I leave you with a qoute from the conclusion of my thread.



If we both accept this as a possibility then I see no reason to debate on the road that gets us there.

Thanks for the reply _@:

No problem but next time don't go by so easily disproving other people's arguments while you clearly haven't thought of their positions in depth. Because for example, as for what I said about being capable of staying unnaffected by moon eye plan if you have sharingan you woul be right to tell that that I can't back it up efficiently but the fact for example Nagato did have personnal reasons for destroying Konoha, you manipulated that way so it could fit with your theory. We would have never let Danzo take the leadership, after what he did to Yakiho. In Hanzo's case he killed him and anyone close to him.

Now I won't continue either but what annoys me is that you pretend that you're open-minded by saying that this thread is only for to show the possibility of those 2 working together and yet when I oppose to some of your agruments not only you answer by using some of your opinions as facts such as your certainty about the other villages and how they wouldn't try to take advantage of the destroyed Leaf but you even go as far as to lecture me with wise proverbs as if you're so much more clever than me while you hadn't even backed up your counter-arguments to begin with.

Disagreeing is your right, showing respect your obligation

 

[FearxDeath]

No problem but next time don't go by so easily disproving other people's arguments while you clearly haven't thought of their positions in depth. Because for example, as for what I said about being capable of staying unnaffected by moon eye plan if you have sharingan you woul be right to tell that that I can't back it up efficiently but the fact for example Nagato did have personnal reasons for destroying Konoha, you manipulated that way so it could fit with your theory. We would have never let Danzo take the leadership, after what he did to Yakiho. In Hanzo's case he killed him and anyone close to him.

Now I won't continue either but what annoys me is that you pretend that you're open-minded by saying that this thread is only for to show the possibility of those 2 working together and yet when I oppose to some of your agruments not only you answer by using some of your opinions as facts such as your certainty about the other villages and how they wouldn't try to take advantage of the destroyed Leaf but you even go as far as to lecture me with wise proverbs as if you're so much more clever than me while you hadn't even backed up your counter-arguments to begin with.

Disagreeing is your right, showing respect your obligation

Please dont missunderstand, everything you have said above is wrong or flawed. I just dont want to take the time out of my day to convince you of it.

 

[Byron123]

Please dont missunderstand, everything you have said above is wrong or flawed. I just dont want to take the time out of my day to convince you of it.

Haha now that's a very convenient answer but you're right about one thing, neither I have time to waste. However, in contrast to me, you created this thread and if you just stop answering every time you're stuck against the wall, then you won't get much of credibity. I'll stop now.

 

[FearxDeath]

Haha now that's a very convenient answer but you're right about one thing, neither I have time to waste. However, in contrast to me, you created this thread and if you just stop answering every time you're stuck against the wall, then you won't get much of credibity. I'll stop now.

Fine then, I tried to drop this but here we go:

1) You seem to think that an Uchiha can disrupt Obito's plans (For no real reason other than some wild theory about Uchiha being able to counter the Juubi''s genjutsu) which is why he killed them, but then out of your same mouth you defend the assertion that Obito wanted to protect/help Sasuke (An Uchiha). Who by the way had a big hand in defeating Obito. You cant argue with logic like that, its too strong, well done.

2) You are defending the idea that a Clan that was killed off entirely in a few hours by 2 men are such a threat that Obito felt he needed to do so as soon as possible... Fair enough, good job. I agree with you, an entire clan, that was completely killed off in 1 night, by 2 men, both of whom belonged to said clan, is not weak at all. And yes, they were all caught off gaurd, even though Itachi's mother and father both caught Itachi in the act it is safe to assume that no one else in the village did, they were all asleep or something. I agree with you here, no point in arguing it any further.

3) Yes, Nagato destroyed Konoha because he wanted revenge because Danzo killed his best friend, even though he didnt even know if Danzo was in Konoha at the time. Eitherway its revenge is a good answer, and as Sasuke shows when someone wants revenge they dont go for it immediantly, they wait for years, and when they finally do it they dont even say why they do it, they just say "Pain" alot.

4) Your right, that was a baseless assumption of mine. Which is why we all know that after Konoha's destruction by pain the other villages moved in and took over, which is how the Manga ended. Sorry for being silly.

5) Double talk

Look im not going to humor this anymore, if the above is what you CHOSE to believe then that is your choice. But first and for most this is all conjecture, I dont argue conjecture because it is too subjective and opinion based. I cant show you a scan that proves your wrong, all I can do is keep talking and hope you finally understand that what your saying isnt likely, and if that never happens then what am I to make of the time I spent trying? This is why I dont argue conjecture, its nothing against against you its just people on threads are normally very prideful and will argue something, even though it is very unlikely, just so they dont feel like they have lost an argument.

Secondly anyone who believes the above is likely is not someone I want to be debating with in the first place, its like arguing with someone who thinks Santa Clause exists. If rational and intuitive logic hasnt debunked that idea already then there is nothing I can bring to the table to convince them otherwise.

So if you want believe the above, they are extremely good arguments that have completely proven your point. You have impressed me, I will be sure to remember your name so the next time I begin a debate with you I know what I am getting into.

 

[Byron123]

Fine then, I tried to drop this but here we go:

1) You seem to think that an Uchiha can disrupt Obito's plans (For no real reason other than some wild theory about Uchiha being able to counter the Juubi''s genjutsu) which is why he killed them, but then out of your same mouth you defend the assertion that Obito wanted to protect/help Sasuke (An Uchiha). Who by the way had a big hand in defeating Obito. You cant argue with logic like that, its too strong, well done.

2) You are defending the idea that a Clan that was killed off entirely in a few hours by 2 men are such a threat that Obito felt he needed to do so as soon as possible... Fair enough, good job. I agree with you, an entire clan, that was completely killed off in 1 night, by 2 men, both of whom belonged to said clan, is not weak at all. And yes, they were all caught off gaurd, even though Itachi's mother and father both caught Itachi in the act it is safe to assume that no one else in the village did, they were all asleep or something. I agree with you here, no point in arguing it any further.

3) Yes, Nagato destroyed Konoha because he wanted revenge because Danzo killed his best friend, even though he didnt even know if Danzo was in Konoha at the time. Eitherway its revenge is a good answer, and as Sasuke shows when someone wants revenge they dont go for it immediantly, they wait for years, and when they finally do it they dont even say why they do it, they just say "Pain" alot.

4) Your right, that was a baseless assumption of mine. Which is why we all know that after Konoha's destruction by pain the other villages moved in and took over, which is how the Manga ended. Sorry for being silly.

5) Double talk

Look im not going to humor this anymore, if the above is what you CHOSE to believe then that is your choice. But first and for most this is all conjecture, I dont argue conjecture because it is too subjective and opinion based. I cant show you a scan that proves your wrong, all I can do is keep talking and hope you finally understand that what your saying isnt likely, and if that never happens then what am I to make of the time I spent trying? This is why I dont argue conjecture, its nothing against against you its just people on threads are normally very prideful and will argue something, even though it is very unlikely, just so they dont feel like they have lost an argument.

Secondly anyone who believes the above is likely is not someone I want to be debating with in the first place, its like arguing with someone who thinks Santa Clause exists. If rational and intuitive logic hasnt debunked that idea already then there is nothing I can bring to the table to convince them otherwise.

So if you want believe the above, they are extremely good arguments that have completely proven your point. You have impressed me, I will be sure to remember your name so the next time I begin a debate with you I know what I am getting into.

Lol it's funny how you always try to ridicule someone's arguments by presenting them in the most stupid way.

1. You act like I self-contradict myself when I say that Obito killed the Uchiha but protected Sasuke as if there is no logic in that. Uchiha were against him, Sasuke at that point not. If you go by saying that he could have killed him when he was a child, I'l say no because the agreement between Obito and Itachi was that Sasuke wouldn't be killed and in case the former did it, then he would have to become enemies with Itachi.

2. Itachi's mother and father were his parents, you can't really take them as examples, there were extremely connected to Itachi to try to kill him or defend themselves. Besides, if they had done it, then the deal with Danzo would have been broken and so Sasuke would have also got killed. As for the rest of the clan, I told you before, when you sleep, it doesn't matter how strong you are, a meaningful hit can end it all. Also, you can't really compare Itachi's and Obito's level to the rest of the clan. Uchiha can be strong but those two are way more. Let me remind you of how Itachi had defeated 3 of his superiors when they were all in front of him (that time when Sasuke was watching him from his house). Just because the former is extremely strong you can't immediately call the rest of the clan fodders. Besides, at the end of the day the massacre became accepted by Hiruzen since he was the Hokage and something like that couldn't have happened without his permission. It's something that would have been obvious, not one of Danzo's unkwnown business which would remain in the darkness. Therefore, that means that Hiruzen himself acknowledged the danger the Uchiha opposed to the village.

3. Lol excuse me, who said that he didn't know it? After he destroyed Konoha while he was telling Naruto about his past he did mention that Danzo helped Hanzo and therefore he knew it preety well. And no, it's not in this ridiculous way you describe it as if he was his boyfriend and instead of killing Danzo himself, he preferred to destroy the whole Konoha. I've never said that this attack was because of Danzo specifically. It was because due to Konoha, Nagato lost his parents in front of his eyes at an early age and he even lost his best friend who had become, along with Konan, a second family to him. Now to you friendship and familly may mean nothing but it's exactly because of that reason that Sasuke wanted to kill Itachi when he didn't know about the truth, it's for that reason that Gaara was a phycopath as a kid as well many other characters. I don't say that Nagato woke up one morning and said let's destroy Konoha. He did it as a "bonus" he got from his attack to Konoha and the fact that he was emotionaly connected in a negative way to Konoha can very well be seen when Konan mentioned before the assault that there was something different about him.

4. Lol I start to wonder about your mentality. You create a whole theory following the events of the history and yet you don't consider what could have happened at the moment which you examine but you just pass them by as if they're of no importance. By that logic of yours then the whole Naruto's journey to find Sasuke was a waste of time since the latter returned to the village on his own without getting persuaded by the former.


To sum up I really lost interest to this subject but I wanted to end this once and for all, since you go by as if you're very clever with these arguments of yours (the ones you used against me) and even go as far as to lecture me with wise proverbs and such while you clearly don't even try to undestand my arguments because they don't fit in your concept and instead you try to make fun of them. I wouldn't have written all of this and I wouldn't have tried so much to force you into a debate if you hadn't tried to sound like a smart*ss to begin with. I really have no problem with you having a different opinion and I would be mad to but please next time restrain yourself from playing the clever guy while you're not even willing to talk about a subject in depth.

You're not an open-minded person as you want to present yourself in this thread, you're just a hypocrite who will ridicule immediately anyone's arguments in case they don't fit in your ideas and will try to play the smart guy and all that while you're not even willing to answer seriously.

The end

 

[UnrealSoul]

This escalated rather quickly....

I agree with OP. Makes sense and among your argument with byron you gave a valid reason why Danzo wasn't at the village during pain's attack.

 

[FearxDeath]

Lol it's funny how you always try to ridicule someone's arguments by presenting them in the most stupid way.

1. You act like I self-contradict myself when I say that Obito killed the Uchiha but protected Sasuke as if there is no logic in that. Uchiha were against him, Sasuke at that point not. If you go by saying that he could have killed him when he was a child, I'l say no because the agreement between Obito and Itachi was that Sasuke wouldn't be killed and in case the former did it, then he would have to become enemies with Itachi.

2. Itachi's mother and father were his parents, you can't really take them as examples, there were extremely connected to Itachi to try to kill him or defend themselves. Besides, if they had done it, then the deal with Danzo would have been broken and so Sasuke would have also got killed. As for the rest of the clan, I told you before, when you sleep, it doesn't matter how strong you are, a meaningful hit can end it all. Also, you can't really compare Itachi's and Obito's level to the rest of the clan. Uchiha can be strong but those two are way more. Let me remind you of how Itachi had defeated 3 of his superiors when they were all in front of him (that time when Sasuke was watching him from his house). Just because the former is extremely strong you can't immediately call the rest of the clan fodders. Besides, at the end of the day the massacre became accepted by Hiruzen since he was the Hokage and something like that couldn't have happened without his permission. It's something that would have been obvious, not one of Danzo's unkwnown business which would remain in the darkness. Therefore, that means that Hiruzen himself acknowledged the danger the Uchiha opposed to the village.

3. Lol excuse me, who said that he didn't know it? After he destroyed Konoha while he was telling Naruto about his past he did mention that Danzo helped Hanzo and therefore he knew it preety well. And no, it's not in this ridiculous way you describe it as if he was his boyfriend and instead of killing Danzo himself, he preferred to destroy the whole Konoha. I've never said that this attack was because of Danzo specifically. It was because due to Konoha, Nagato lost his parents in front of his eyes at an early age and he even lost his best friend who had become, along with Konan, a second family to him. Now to you friendship and familly may mean nothing but it's exactly because of that reason that Sasuke wanted to kill Itachi when he didn't know about the truth, it's for that reason that Gaara was a phycopath as a kid as well many other characters. I don't say that Nagato woke up one morning and said let's destroy Konoha. He did it as a "bonus" he got from his attack to Konoha and the fact that he was emotionaly connected in a negative way to Konoha can very well be seen when Konan mentioned before the assault that there was something different about him.

4. Lol I start to wonder about your mentality. You create a whole theory following the events of the history and yet you don't consider what could have happened at the moment which you examine but you just pass them by as if they're of no importance. By that logic of yours then the whole Naruto's journey to find Sasuke was a waste of time since the latter returned to the village on his own without getting persuaded by the former.


To sum up I really lost interest to this subject but I wanted to end this once and for all, since you go by as if you're very clever with these arguments of yours (the ones you used against me) and even go as far as to lecture me with wise proverbs and such while you clearly don't even try to undestand my arguments because they don't fit in your concept and instead you try to make fun of them. I wouldn't have written all of this and I wouldn't have tried so much to force you into a debate if you hadn't tried to sound like a smart*ss to begin with. I really have no problem with you having a different opinion and I would be mad to but please next time restrain yourself from playing the clever guy while you're not even willing to talk about a subject in depth.

You're not an open-minded person as you want to present yourself in this thread, you're just a hypocrite who will ridicule immediately anyone's arguments in case they don't fit in your ideas and will try to play the smart guy and all that while you're not even willing to answer seriously.

The end

I am sorry if we got off on the wrong foot. There are 2 things you should know about me.

1) I dont like to argue conjecture ergo I dont like to argue about things that cant be proven with facts. Wether or not Pain destroyed Konoha out of revenge, Whether or not every single Uchiha in the village was sleeping even though Itachi's mother, father and Sasuke was awake. Etc... There is no scan I can bring up to prove them, All I can do is make a case to a persons rationality that it is more likely than not that someone else in the village had to be awake. If you still cant see my point after that then we have to part ways. Because the only thing I can do is repeat what I have just said in a different way and hope you get my point.

2) When I speak on things I speak on likely hood. Everything and anything in the manga is a possibility. Kakashi could be Madaras spy and I am sure someone could make a theory arguing such a thing. And no one could really PROVE it to be false. All we can do is ask ourselves what is more likely and go with it. Yes it is possible that Kakashi could be Madara's spy, but it isnt likely and thus isnt true. Or at the very least is less true than him not being a spy.

I am open minded as far as everything you said being possible, but that is not what we are arguing. What we are arguing is whether or not what you said is more likely than what I have said because you start off by saying:

I disagree as for the the fact that

This posits that what your about to say is more likely than what I have said thus making what I have said less true and more or less false. But it is obvious to me that what you have said is FAR from likely, granted it is a possibility but it is far from likely.

1) Forget the contradiction of Obito killing the Uchiha so they dont ruin his plan yet protecting an Uchiha, The sheer idea of the Uchiha somehow being able to counter the Juubi's Genjutsu seems unlikely.

2) Then the notion that even though Itachi's mother and father were awake they were extreme examples and you are sure that everyone else in the village was sleeping... even though Sasuke was awake as well, but I suppose he was another extreme example.

3) No, he didnt know if DANZO WAS IN KONOHA, as in... He ran around looking for Naruto, but destroyed Konoha not knowing if Danzo was inside of it... Or maybe he didnt want to kill Danzo, he just wanted to blow up his home. And thus Pain destroys Konoha to get revenge on Danzo but says nothing of Danzo or his Revenge. Not to mention the fact that he waited roughly 10 years to get this revenge.

Its... If you believe the above is likely then that is OK. Like I said before opinion is subjective and thats the problem I run into when you argue conjecture. There is no scan I can show you to prove you wrong, all I can do is keep saying what I have already said and hope you understand. But I lack the patience to do that so I told you that I didnt want to carry on the debate, but alas here we are, time wasted on both ends. We traveled 1 minute in an hour.

 

[Byron123]

I am sorry if we got off on the wrong foot. There are 2 things you should know about me.

1) I dont like to argue conjecture ergo I dont like to argue about things that cant be proven with facts. Wether or not Pain destroyed Konoha out of revenge, Whether or not every single Uchiha in the village was sleeping even though Itachi's mother, father and Sasuke was awake. Etc... There is no scan I can bring up to prove them, All I can do is make a case to a persons rationality that it is more likely than not that someone else in the village had to be awake. If you still cant see my point after that then we have to part ways. Because the only thing I can do is repeat what I have just said in a different way and hope you get my point.

2) When I speak on things I speak on likely hood. Everything and anything in the manga is a possibility. Kakashi could be Madara spy and I am sure someone could make a theory arguing such a thing. And no one could really PROVE it to be false. All we can do is ask ourselves what is more likely and go with it. Yes it is possible that Kakashi could be Madara's spy, but it isnt likely and thus isnt true. Or at the very least is less true than him not being a spy.

I am open minded as far as everything you said being possible, but that is not what we are arguing. What we are arguing is whether or not what you said is more likely than what I have said because you start off by saying:



This posits that what your about to say is more likely than what I have said thus making what I have said less true and more or less false. But it is obvious to me that what you have said is FAR from likely, granted it is a possibility but it is far from likely.

1) Forget the contradiction of Obito killing the Uchiha so they dont ruin his plan yet protecting an Uchiha, The sheer idea of the Uchiha somehow being able to counter the Juubi's Genjutsu seems unlikely.

2) Then the notion that even though Itachi's mother and father were awake they were extreme examples and you are sure that everyone else in the village was sleeping... even though Sasuke was awake as well, but I suppose he was another extreme example.

3) No, he didnt know if DANZO WAS IN KONOHA, as in... He ran around looking for Naruto, but destroyed Konoha not knowing if Danzo was inside of it... Or maybe he didnt want to kill Danzo, he just wanted to blow up his home. And thus Pain destroys Konoha to get revenge on Danzo but says nothing of Danzo or his Revenge. Not to mention the fact that he waited roughly 10 years to get this revenge.

Its... If you believe the above is likely then that is OK. Like I said before opinion is subjective and thats the problem I run into when you argue conjecture. There is no scan I can show you to prove you wrong, all I can do is keep saying what I have already said and hope you understand. But I lack to patience to deal do that so I told you that I didnt want to carry on the debate, but alas here we are, time wasted on both ends. We traveled 1 minute in an hour.

As I said it wasn't the fact that you were disagreeing what was annoying but the fact that you tried to ridicule my arguments immediately by disaproving them completely, just check the end of your first response towards me and you'll undestand. It's not like that my arguments where complete *sspulls as you made it sound and yet you couldn't even take me seriously and the only thing you were doing is making fun of my arguments by using your "humour" whereas I tried to answer in a logical way, may not be the way you think but certainly not the way of a lunatic as you presented that I was, disagreeing all this time just so I could be negative without any actual point in what I was saying whereas it was you from the beginning who was negative towards me. In any case, I think that you'll agree that this conversation lasted too long. Next time you'll make a thread don't ridicule someone's ideas just because they don't fit exactly to what you think of logic, for many other people might be and it's not like I was saying crazy stuff to begin with. They were plausible scenario which you simply didn't want to hear and even more answer to.

 

[FearxDeath]

This escalated rather quickly....

I agree with OP. Makes sense and among your argument with byron you gave a valid reason why Danzo wasn't at the village during pain's attack.

Thanks man, am unbais opinion always helps tide things over. I hope you enjoyed the thread!

 

[FearxDeath]

As I said it wasn't the fact that you were disagreeing what was annoying but the fact that you tried to ridicule my arguments immediately by disaproving them completely, just check the end of your first response towards me and you'll undestand. It's not like that my arguments where complete *sspulls as you made it sound and yet you couldn't even take me seriously and the only thing you were doing is making fun of my arguments by using your "humour" whereas I tried to answer in a logical way, may not be the way you think but certainly not the way of a lunatic as you presented that I was, disagreeing all this time just so I could be negative without any actual point in what I was saying whereas it was you from the beginning who was negative towards me. In any case, I think that you'll agree that this conversation lasted too long. Next time you'll make a thread don't ridicule someone's ideas just because they don't fit exactly to what you think of logic, for many other people might be and it's not like I was saying crazy stuff to begin with. They were plausible scenario which you simply didn't want to hear and even more answer to.

I will apologize for my actions. I tend to rely on sarcasm in order to help someone see the ridicoulusness of their own arguement as oppose to explaining it. If someone comes to you and says that the sky is green, its easier to look at them weirdly and say "You honestly think the sky is green?" hoping that they realize how they sound as oppose to sitting down and explaining to them in detail that they are wrong,

Not to say that what you were saying was crazy or anything, as I said before it is a possibility, but to me it isnt likely, but it could be likely to you and thats ok. But I just dont like to argue it because its like trying to convert an athiest to christianinty, at the end of the day we just see things a different way. So I tried to use sarcasm to show you how it sounded to me but it failed pretty badly.

All in all I think your a smart guy, I remember your name from some posts you made a while ago and you seemed like a good guy. I hope my actions hasnt turned you off, I wasnt trying trying to be rude I was just being sarcastic at a time where being serious would have served me better.

 

[Byron123]

I will apologize for my actions. I tend to rely on sarcasm in order to help someone see the ridicoulusness of their own arguement as oppose to explaining it. If someone comes to you and says that the sky is gfreen, its easier to look at them weirdly and say "You honestly think the sky is green?" hoping that they realize how they sound as oppose to sitting down and explaining to them in detail that they are wrong,

Not to say that what you were saying was crazy or anything, as I said before it is a possibility, but to me it isnt likely, but it could be likely to you and thats ok. But I just dont like to argue it because its like trying to convert an athiest to christianinty, at the end of the day we just see things a different way.

All in all I think your a smart guy, I remember your name from some posts you made a while ago and you seemed like a good guy. I hope my actions hasnt turned you off, I wasnt trying trying to be rude I was just being sarcastic at a time where being serious would have served me better.

Doesn't matter XD It's funny though because another time we had got in an arugument and exactly like that time, I had agreed with you overall with some differences. Most people tend to argue when they disagree, we when we agree, the irony XD