[Theory] [FEAR] Analysis: Can Hiruzen use Onmyoudon?

[Mr Hiru]

Bloodline Limit is a KKG which is 2 Mixed Nature Types
BloodLine Selection is a KKT which is 3 Mixed Nature Types

So Hiruzen was merely stating that he was using more than 3 Nature types, which just complements what he said before which was that he was using atleast 4 Nature Types.

Obito said that his abilities go beyond the "Usual Standards", which means it could be on pair with Shinobi that arent so Usual. And I believe Kage's are Prime candidates for that category.

In my Updates I debunk the notion that Mixed Natures require KKG or KKT's.

I ask you then, why the Bloodline Limit has to have the word "bloodline" in first place.

My analysis is based on the raw definition of the concept. Actually, I don't know about any bloodline technique that is not related to blood, actually.

 

[FearxDeath]

I ask you then, why the Bloodline Limit has to have the word "bloodline" in first place.

My analysis is based on the raw definition of the concept. Actually, I don't know about any bloodline technique that is not related to blood, actually.

Bloodline merely reffers to things you are born with. In both my case and your case we are both talking about people being born with something. The question here is what their blood line provides them. If you believe that:

1) Because of your KKG/KKT, You are born with 1 Nature Type and must learn another in order to begin learning the Mixed Nature Types, or 2 more in regards to KKT.

Then this provides no room for anyone outside the Bloodline to use Mixed Nature types. But based on things brought up in my thread I show that this is likely not the case. Especially seeing as to how muliple families have shown themselves to be able to use Mixed Natures. So either all of those families from the different nations are secretly related... or there is something more here.

Or you can believe that Blood lines provide this:

2) Because of your KKG/KKT, You are born with 2 Nature Types, or 3 in regards to KKT, allowing you to use the Mixed Nature Type.

When you see it this way it provides room for other truly skilled ninjas to be able to master said KKG, and then perhaps pass it down the their child afterwards.

But most importantly I want to make one thing clear. We are not arguing whether about the definitino of Bloodlines KKG/KKT, where arguing what said Bloodline provides.

 

[Mr Hiru]

Bloodline merely reffers to things you are born with. In both my case and your case we are both talking about people being born with something. The question here is what their blood line provides them. If you believe that:

1) Because of your KKG/KKT, You are born with 1 Nature Type and must learn another in order to begin learning the Mixed Nature Types, or 2 more in regards to KKT.

Then this provides no room for anyone outside the Bloodline to use Mixed Nature types. But based on things brought up in my thread I show that this is likely not the case. Especially seeing as to how muliple families have shown themselves to be able to use Mixed Natures. So either all of those families from the different nations are secretly related... or there is something more here.

Or you can believe that Blood lines provide this:

2) Because of your KKG/KKT, You are born with 2 Nature Types, or 3 in regards to KKT, allowing you to use the Mixed Nature Type.

When you see it this way it provides room for other truly skilled ninjas to be able to master said KKG, and then perhaps pass it down the their child afterwards.

But most importantly I want to make one thing clear. We are not arguing whether about the definitino of Bloodlines KKG/KKT, where arguing what said Bloodline provides.

I wouldn't argue about them if these things were not related at all.

For instance, when Hizuren fought Orochimaru, he used earth followed by water, and the result was mud (oh well, this is just anime though), he didn't create wood. Yamato created wood, Hashirama created wood, Madara created wood, Obito created wood.

The correlation is direct... those who made wood with earth and water had Hashirama's DNA, Hiruzen did not and as result he created mud.

Also, as a "semi-bloodline-limit" we have the Uchiha. There is no Uchiha that is not born with the fire element, meaning that this basic nature is determined by genetics.

Henceforth, my position about bloodline limit related to genetics holds, meaning that Hizuren could use Onmyoudon only if he has the bloodline of the Sage of Six Paths and Juubi's Chakra.

 

[FearxDeath]

LOL... so it's not a theory but says "THEORY" in big bold letters in the title? Whatever you call it is really irrelevant, the point is, that's it's not established manga fact. Also I never said yin and yang had nothing to do w/ jutsu, sorry if you misunderstood.

A water jutsu canceling out another water jutsu or fire justsu is NOT the same thing as what Onmyoudon does to these jutsu. When elemental jutsu clash it's akin to two equal, but opposing forces clashing. There's a lot of sound and fury resulting in a zero sum. What Onmyoudon does is like disintegrating an object, it removes all trace of it.

The way I see it, elemental natures are like atoms that are the building blocks of a jutsu, while yin and yang are like the molecules that are the building blocks of those atoms. Onmyoudon effects jutsu at the "molecular" level, that's what I mean by a different level. It's a messy metaphor but I hope it gives you an idea where I'm coming from.

Ok I have no clue what you are trying to say. Lets reitterate.

Your saying Hiruzen cannot do Onmyoudon because Onmyoudon is more than just 5 Elements, it uses Yin and Yang as well. But more than just that, because all Jutsu utilize Yin and Yang. What your saying is that Onmyoudon incorporates Yin and Yang Release. Much like the Sage's "Creator of All things Jutsu". Which is where Onmyoudon gets its ability to negate Ninjutsu.

Now there is no question as to whether or not it uses all 5 Elements, that is a given. Oonoki's Dust Release which is Fire, Earth and Wind materializes things on a molecular level. Obito's initial technique takes that 1 step further by adding Water giving it its Liquid form which is what Hiruzen pointed out. Then suddenly Obito, using what seemed to be the same technique, started negating Ninjutsu, Edo Tensie to start with. The average person would say, he probably added Lightning to the mix and there you go.

Now what you do is question why 5 Elements would negate Ninjutsu, My question is why would Yin-Yang Released Negate Ninjutsu? You could even question it even further and ask why did he stop there? Izangi is an offshot of Yin-Yang Release and you dont need contact to make it work. Why didnt Obito use Yin-Yang release to keep him from losing? Why didnt he instantly kill everyone around him, I mean now that we are saying he is using Yin-Yang release we must ask why he is limiting himself to such a low version of it? Occams Razor dictates that my theory is more likely.

 

[FearxDeath]

I wouldn't argue about them if these things were not related at all.

For instance, when Hizuren fought Orochimaru, he used earth followed by water, and the result was mud (oh well, this is just anime though), he didn't create wood. Yamato created wood, Hashirama created wood, Madara created wood, Obito created wood.

The correlation is direct... those who made wood with earth and water had Hashirama's DNA, Hiruzen did not and as result he created mud.

Also, as a "semi-bloodline-limit" we have the Uchiha. There is no Uchiha that is not born with the fire element, meaning that this basic nature is determined by genetics.

Henceforth, my position about bloodline limit related to genetics holds, meaning that Hizuren could use Onmyoudon only if he has the bloodline of the Sage of Six Paths and Juubi's Chakra.

I raised alot of question in my overhauled thread which you probably havent gotten the chance to read yet. But I restate it here just for you.

1) Kurotsuchi (Earth Village), Dodai (Lightning Village) and Mei (Water Village) all have Lava Style. So either they are all related or the Theory on Bloodline limits is wrong? You could argue that they all have Distant relatives that are related but we also know that over time and breeding outside of a clan dilutes Bloodline Limits, so why werent theirs diluted? This question cannot be reasonably answered giving your premises, while it is easily answered under mine.

2) Haku was younger than Sasuke. And yet in the same time Sasuke managed to learn Fire Style, Haku had learned Water, Wind and Ice. Sasuke on one hand was driven to be as strong as his brother when he was young and then driven to kill his brother as he grew older, all of which drove him to become stronger. On top of which he was an Uchiha and a Ninja. Haku on the otherhand was born into a Family of farmers and hadnt recieved any training but was punished by his mother when he showed signs of being able to use Ice Style. So how did Haku perform such a grand feat learning 3 styles in the time it took sasuke to get 1 when Sasuke was driven to be strong and Haku was punished for it? This is another question that cant be reasonably answered under your premise.

Now what your trying to say above is that when Hiruzen tries to use Water and Earth he uses Mud but when someone with the KKG does it they use Wood Style. That is wrong, what Hiruzen did when he used Mud was a Collaboration Jutsu [

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]. Much like when Yamato and Naruto used Water Vortex Jutsu [

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]. So the premise of your response is flawed.

 

[Draxus]

Ok I have no clue what you are trying to say. Lets reitterate.

Your saying Hiruzen cannot do Onmyoudon because Onmyoudon is more than just 5 Elements, it uses Yin and Yang as well. But more than just that, because all Jutsu utilize Yin and Yang. What your saying is that Onmyoudon incorporates Yin and Yang Release. Much like the Sage's "Creator of All things Jutsu". Which is where Onmyoudon gets its ability to negate Ninjutsu.

Now there is no question as to whether or not it uses all 5 Elements, that is a given. Oonoki's Dust Release which is Fire, Earth and Wind materializes things on a molecular level. Obito's initial technique takes that 1 step further by adding Water giving it its Liquid form which is what Hiruzen pointed out. Then suddenly Obito, using what seemed to be the same technique, started negating Ninjutsu, Edo Tensie to start with. The average person would say, he probably added Lightning to the mix and there you go.

Now what you do is question why 5 Elements would negate Ninjutsu, My question is why would Yin-Yang Released Negate Ninjutsu? You could even question it even further and ask why did he stop there? Izangi is an offshot of Yin-Yang Release and you dont need contact to make it work. Why didnt Obito use Yin-Yang release to keep him from losing? Why didnt he instantly kill everyone around him, I mean now that we are saying he is using Yin-Yang release we must ask why he is limiting himself to such a low version of it? Occams Razor dictates that my theory is more likely.

Yeah I guess the metaphor didn't work. You still seem to misconstruing things.

So let me start at the top: No, I don't think Onmyoudon is more than just 5 elements. I think it's outside of any nature and some form of yin-yang manipulation. What you say about Dust Release is true, but again I was making a metaphor. However the KKT's destructive power is WHY Hiruzen THOUGHT that Onmyoudon was some sort of bloodline selection. The fact is Onmyoudon goes one step further in that it undoes what makes jutsu a jutsu, it unravels the chakra itself. This is why I said Hiruzen's hypothesis isn't as valid because he wasn't aware that jutsu's were being negated.

Yin-yang manipulation negates jutsu because all jutsu are made up of some balance of yin & yang chakra, hence my molecule metaphor. Unlike w/ elemental jutsu, where like-force is needed, it doesn't matter what balance of magnitude there is if you're undoing the jutsu at it's most base level. Occam's Razor is a BS way to try claim superiority in a debate about a fictional universe. Also you are making more assumptions from my point of view. Ultimately though, the questions you're asking are ridiculous anyway. What makes you think yin-yang release could keep him from losing or kill everyone around him, the limits of yin-yang release are not something we are privy to, but clearly there ARE limits. For instance.... Senjutsu. So basically all the answers to your last questions could simply be answered with, "He was facing a senjutsu user and was obsessed with try to break Naruto."

Are you trying to deny that Obito as the Juubi's jin DIDN'T have control of yin-yang chakra or that creation of all things and izunami are the only 2 ways to manipulate yin-yang chakra?

 

[FearxDeath]

Yeah I guess the metaphor didn't work. You still seem to misconstruing things.

So let me start at the top: No, I don't think Onmyoudon is more than just 5 elements. I think it's outside of any nature and some form of yin-yang manipulation. What you say about Dust Release is true, but again I was making a metaphor. However the KKT's destructive power is WHY Hiruzen THOUGHT that Onmyoudon was some sort of bloodline selection. The fact is Onmyoudon goes one step further in that it undoes what makes jutsu a jutsu, it unravels the chakra itself. This is why I said Hiruzen's hypothesis isn't as valid because he wasn't aware that jutsu's were being negated.

Yin-yang manipulation negates jutsu because all jutsu are made up of some balance of yin & yang chakra, hence my molecule metaphor. Unlike w/ elemental jutsu, where like-force is needed, it doesn't matter what balance of magnitude there is if you're undoing the jutsu at it's most base level. Occam's Razor is a BS way to try claim superiority in a debate about a fictional universe. Also you are making more assumptions from my point of view. Ultimately though, the questions you're asking are ridiculous anyway. What makes you think yin-yang release could keep him from losing or kill everyone around him, the limits of yin-yang release are not something we are privy to, but clearly there ARE limits. For instance.... Senjutsu. So basically all the answers to your last questions could simply be answered with, "He was facing a senjutsu user and was obsessed with try to break Naruto."

Are you trying to deny that Obito as the Juubi's jin DIDN'T have control of yin-yang chakra or that creation of all things and izunami are the only 2 ways to manipulate yin-yang chakra?

Lol you go all the way around the block just to tell me you live next door, I guess thats one way to dance around the question. The first paragraph wasnt needed because I said that in my response but to each his own I guess.

You claim Occams Razor is BS, Once again to each his own.

You ask wat makes me think Yin-Yang Release would keep him from losing, Well if im not sure Izangi gives a person 30 seconds of being unable to die, and as Obito said during his battle with Konan that was an incomplete version of Izangi, so the full version would be even more powerful. And on top of that Izangi is merely an offshoot of Yin-Yang Release so we can assume that the Release itself would be even more powerful... So with that at the very least I can assume that Obito, with access to Yin-Yang Release, could have fared alot better in that fight.

And now your saying 3 Things that dont make sense in order to try and answer my question:

1) We arent privy to Yin-Yang Release. Kind of a Cop out but even more it makes little sense for you to say it is caused by something we are not privy to.

2) Senjutsu... So now Senjutsu counters Yin-Yang Release? Why... Wait let me guess, we are not privy to Yin-Yang Release. So you give an answer that we dont understand and when I challenge this you say "Well we dont know enough about it to answer your question"

3) He was obsessed with trying to Break Naruto. The infamous Plot no Jutsu excuse, everything strange he did that supposebly goes against his own plans were done because he lost his mind and was obsessed with Naruto.

 

[Draxus]

Lol you go all the way around the block just to tell me you live next door, I guess thats one way to dance around the question. The first paragraph wasnt needed because I said that in my response but to each his own I guess.

You claim Occams Razor is BS, Once again to each his own.

You ask wat makes me think Yin-Yang Release would keep him from losing, Well if im not sure Izangi gives a person 30 seconds of being unable to die, and as Obito said during his battle with Konan that was an incomplete version of Izangi, so the full version would be even more powerful. And on top of that Izangi is merely an offshoot of Yin-Yang Release so we can assume that the Release itself would be even more powerful... So with that at the very least I can assume that Obito, with access to Yin-Yang Release, could have fared alot better in that fight.

And now your saying 3 Things that dont make sense in order to try and answer my question:

1) We arent privy to Yin-Yang Release. Kind of a Cop out but even more it makes little sense for you to say it is caused by something we are not privy to.

2) Senjutsu... So now Senjutsu counters Yin-Yang Release? Why... Wait let me guess, we are not privy to Yin-Yang Release. So you give an answer that we dont understand and when I challenge this you say "Well we dont know enough about it to answer your question"

3) He was obsessed with trying to Break Naruto. The infamous Plot no Jutsu excuse, everything strange he did that supposebly goes against his own plans were done because he lost his mind and was obsessed with Naruto.

Man... it's like you think this is real life or something. It's a story made up by a dude who lives in Japan. As much as some people like to think it so, this universe wasn't design to be delved into as deeply as they like. This is Kishimoto not Tolkein. Sometimes how thing appear on the surface are just that, and only anything else if the author decides to altar things to fit future plot points. Sure it's fun to theorize, but don't for a second think any one theory has much more relevance than any other if both have manga facts behind them.

Also for the last time, stop twisting my words. The first paragraph WAS necessary because you took my carefully chosen words and paraphrased to make it easier for you to debunk... or you just don't comprehend what I'm saying. Either way, I once again grow weary of having to repeat myself.

It's pretty amazing how you contradict yourself too. You say Obito can use yin-yang release w/ izunagi, yet claim he can no longer use it as jinchuriki because he didn't use it. Yet no explanation as to how or why he would have lost this ability. If I wanted to I can come up w/ several other reasons why he didn't use izunagi. Ultimately the results speak for themselves, a part of Obito wanted to break Naruto to prove he chose the correct path, and another part of him didn't really want to win at all. You also misquote Obito, he never said his Izunagi was incomplete.

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1) I didn't say we aren't privy to yin-yang release. We know it is a power only So6P had, so if there are things only he can do it's safe to assume it's due to it (i.e. Onmyoudon). We do know some things about it, but what we don't know are it's limitations. There is a difference, are you really unable to see that? Limitations like what sort of prep is needed for Creation of All Things and what its parameters are. We also don't know other uses for the release out side of making illusion into reality. I believe Kishi was showing us an offensive used for the release in Onmyoudon

2) I really don't need to explain how senjutsu counters Onmyoudon, but since you're so obtuse. yin-yang release doesn't work on senjutsu because it's comprised of more than yin and yang chakra. I hope that concept didn't fly over your head.

3) Again, yes, this a story and not even an especially deep one. It's a kids story. I'm not claiming "plot no jutsu", I gave you a reasonable and verifiable reason for why Obito didn't just obliterate everything. I feel PNJ is a term people use whenever a character acts against how they feel they should, kinda like you trying to rationalize it. I simply just except the way a character acts as part of the story for better or for worse. If you think it's illogical or stupid, well, that's a beef you'll have to take up with the author.

EDIT: You know I just realized another reason why Hiruzen's hypothesis has nothing to do w/ Onmyoudon. The attack that Hiruzen faced and Onmyoudon aren't even the same ability! If they were Hiruzen never would have returned.

Now if you wanted say Hiruzen could do the jutsu Obito was doing before he gained control of the juubi, then I agree that's possible, but would say it's still highly unlikely. Only because using combo attacks doesn't necessarily yield the same result as a blood line limit/selection using the same elements (When naruto and sasuke attacked it wasn't a scorch release jutsu). We also haven't seen more than 2 elemental jutsu combined.

 

[tracytracy22]

EDIT: You know I just realized another reason why Hiruzen's hypothesis has nothing to do w/ Onmyoudon. The attack that Hiruzen faced and Onmyoudon aren't even the same ability! If they were Hiruzen never would have returned.

I know this is a very late reply and everyone has probably already realised but obito's jutsu only became onmyoudon (erase ninjutsu thingo) when he gained control over the juubi (he added yin-yang release to his initial jutsu).

 

[valandil988]

Fear please stop trying to explain to morons, its like an up hill battle, you must have written nearly 1000 words + there trying to turn that guy around jeez. Pick your battles.

Question about Haku as you pointed out.

Perhaps it works in a way we are not familiar with, Perhaps Haku & "bloodline" users gain a sub element nature from birth. Which can be divided into its basic elements through training.....I do not believe for one moment that inside Haku he had water and wind nature affinity separate inside him. It would make sense for his natural state to be Ice natured, I imagine it would be akin to splitting his insides to create water or wind jutsu.

However again your up against Yamato's explanation which makes very little sense when combining it with other observations, its like Kishi introduced mixed up ideas about the same subject and had forgotten what he had already said or shown on the subject.

I know this is a very late reply and everyone has probably already realised but obito's jutsu only became onmyoudon (erase ninjutsu thingo) when he gained control over the juubi (he added yin-yang release to his initial jutsu).

OMG Pls stop with the Yin-Yang thing its just fricken chakra its not special! What is special is a UNIQUE ABILITY that the SO6P had to use Yin-Yang eg CHAKRA to create stuff. Thats all!

People are spouting Yin-Yang like its some kinda wizardry when every fricken med-nin or genjutsu user uses it!

 

[6PathsofKami]

I'll just keep it simple...no

 

[miromiro]

What is that idiotic question anyway? I didn't bother to even read the damn post, it's some bullshit there honestly.

 

[valandil988]

What is that idiotic question anyway? I didn't bother to even read the damn post, it's some bullshit there honestly.

Nice post doesn't make you look cool just dismissive and ignorant.

 

[miromiro]

Nice post doesn't make you look cool just dismissive and ignorant.

I know I was a little vulgar, was a little angry. Sorry for that.
I'm just saying that there's absolutely no chance of such a thing being true.

 

[Xāvî1]

Where is his rinnegan to use Onmyoudon

 

[valandil988]

I know I was a little vulgar, was a little angry. Sorry for that.
I'm just saying that there's absolutely no chance of such a thing being true.

Kl, I was snappy too sorry :3

Where is his rinnegan to use Onmyoudon

Soooo I suppose Nagato could use Onmyoudon then?

 

[Xāvî1]

Kl, I was snappy too sorry :3



Soooo I suppose Nagato could use Onmyoudon then?

Yes if he wants too.l

 

[Meowazziel]

Where does it say that the 4 element jutsu is earth, wind, water and fire? and the 5 element jutsu has lightning with it included? As far as I remember, it just said 4 elements and not which.

If Hiruzen can use Onmyoudon, why did he have to theorize about what Obito could be using?
Wouldnt he recognize it, because Hiruzen could use it himself?
The 4 element thing looks basicly the same(in appearance) as the 5 element one, except it didnt absorb ninjutsu yet, like the 5 element one can.

 

[valandil988]

Where does it say that the 4 element jutsu is earth, wind, water and fire? and the 5 element jutsu has lightning with it included? As far as I remember, it just said 4 elements and not which.

If Hiruzen can use Onmyoudon, why did he have to theorize about what Obito could be using?
Wouldnt he recognize it, because Hiruzen could use it himself?
The 4 element thing looks basicly the same(in appearance) as the 5 element one, except it didnt absorb ninjutsu yet, like the 5 element one can.

A good counter point. Why didn't Hiruzen recognize the technique straight away...

 

[Draxus]

OMG Pls stop with the Yin-Yang thing its just fricken chakra its not special! What is special is a UNIQUE ABILITY that the SO6P had to use Yin-Yang eg CHAKRA to create stuff. Thats all!

People are spouting Yin-Yang like its some kinda wizardry when every fricken med-nin or genjutsu user uses it!

med ninja's use yin release and genjutsu users use yang release. To compare that to using yin-yang release is akin to comparing ice release to someone who can use wind jutsu and water jutsu. It's another level. A power only born from the So6P, and from what we have seen from it, it works a lot like wizardry. If it can turn illusion into reality, how can you possibly think it's limited to only that miraculous feet?